Why are so many still opposed to health care for everyone?

I don’t know of anyone who is opposed to people having health insurance. I think everyone should. But why should I pay for someone else’s health care? Why should the health insurance industry be co-opted by a government-run plan?

I’m not one of those crying “Keep your government out of my Medicare!” ... I’d just as soon see that done away with, too.

Healthcare for all would be wonderful. My opposition is in the riders and concern about paying for it in the current bill that the president has signed (that means nothing, it won’t take effect for four years and still hasn’t passed the Senate).

Give us a good health plan that has been thought through, that is JUST the health plan (no special gifts for districts whose congressman has voted for it). Show me that it can be paid for, that is is more than just a cheap trick to secure Obama’s reelection and I would back it all the way.

I am not opposed to healthcare for everybody. But given the ‘efficiency’ of our federal government; I have a fundamental mistrust for legislation that is as large and as invasive as we are facing. I most fear the other ‘little stuff’ that sneaks into big bills that our legislators miss and we all end up paying for. Say, coverage for non-citizens. I am not particularly fond of that idea. If someone doesn’t pay into the system, they should not benefit from the system.

@majorrich Exactly. If you haven’t paid in to the system, you should not receive benefits from the system- children under 18 and those too disabled to work the only exceptions (I worked in a group home for the mentally challenged and the guys I worked with had never really worked ever, and were in no condition to work).

If you are illegal- get stabilized and then be sent back to your home country for continued care.

Im am not opposed to Healthcare for everyone. One of my really good friends has severe back problems and cant afford physical therapy because she doesnt have healthcare. She also cant get medication to help herself either because its so expensive. This has been going on for a year and a half with her excruiciating back pains day and night.

85% of chronic illness can be prevented through changes in diet and lifestyle. We have a system that subsidizes and prioritizes bad food and sprawl, which creates fat, unhealthy people. Good health starts there, not with universal health care, although I believe health care should be universal as well.

[Mod Says:] Apologies for first quip- it was meant to be a PM to user.

@CloudXDream An emergency room cannot turn your friend away due to failure of the ability to pay if it gets very bad. Also, not sure how common, but our local hospitals offer assistance to those who cannot afford their treatment that are based on income levels.

We are broke people! Future generations will have to pay for it one way or another and it will be painful. Good health!!!

@rahm_sahriv I dont think that we have that around here because Im sure that she would have done it already if she could have.

The downside of insurance companies is that they cause doctor fees to be severely inflated. I don’t like it. I hate how our country worships doctors and lawyers as though they are some kind of god.

If you don’t have the money for treatment, you can still be stabilized in most hospital emergency rooms, that much is true. That doesn’t mean they won’t bill you. People have gone bankrupt from not being able to pay those bills. Perhaps if you’re the transient sort, you can disappear and the taxpayer and the hospital will pay for the treatment (thanks to GWBush), but that doesn’t mean that the vast majority of people can just waltz in to the ER and get “totally free treatment” like everyone seems to think.

And, to answer the question at hand: I’m pretty sure people don’t oppose health care for all, they just don’t want to have to give up anything for that to happen. One preference outranks the other in their personal hierarchy.

If you are a single individual with no rich family and no children, who earns 29K a year working fulltime, and you contract cancer…. there is no help for you, outside of checkups and momentary stabilization.

Unless Obama’s plan fixes that. We’ll see.

Other countries spend less per capita on healthcare for indigent people than America does, but America’s system is inefficient due to public fear or lack of awareness of socialized medicine and lack of understanding of how well it works in other modern nations.

The people who don’t want to pay tax money are already paying it, and paying more than they need to, than if we just adopted single-payer universal healthcare.

Because many see it as Socialism. My counter to that is “Why should the other people who pay insurance premiums have their money used to help you out then?” Same logic; cost-sharing. If you are against this for those reasons then you should be against any insurance, and that means everyone should pay 100% of their medical expenses out of their pocket.

The funny part here is that many people who are against this on partisan grounds forget who proposed this same thing a few years ago ;)

@laureth I didn’t think the care that this person would receive in the ER would be free. They would be billed and it would be their responsibility to work out a payment plan with the hospital.

@jerv Agreed, and it was also shot down years ago, unlike now.

@rahm_sahriv – It would then be thoroughly financially irresponsible, would it not, to seek care you know you cannot afford, just as it would be irresponsible to buy a house you can’t afford. So, people die. This is something many people think is wrong, hence the push for universal health care.

[mod says] Small typo in the title corrected via internal edit.

Most people in the US are not used to the idea of sharing. Most people are okay with doing business with insurance companies that want nothing but you money.
It is absurd the idea that one can go bankrupt at some point in his/her life for hospital bills. That is absurd.

More, how can you bear knowing that there are children out there that will go without a guarantee they will be taken care? Or old people. How can you live with that?

I think is has to do with a notion that everyone should have a predatory behave; “I care for myself and others should do the same”. In many aspects of life it is okay, you have to move your ass and get it by yourself. Now, when it comes to health, wait, someone will go broke because a of predatory system?

Then it comes to taxes. Everyone want to protect their tax dollars. Alright, make all the sense. We can spend trillions on weapons but we can’t spend money on making sure people care treated when they need and, without going broke.

Give me a break. Stop the notion of “now”. We get to start thinking about others; not just “others” are those you know. “Others” mean all of us.

Going broke for medical bills can happen to you too.

Equal rights for gay marriage don’t cost more tax money. Rights for blacks shouldn’t cost money either.

Free health care on the otherhand. How is that going to happen unless SOMEONE is paying for it?

And frankly, I don’t want to pay for it. I pay for my own copays with my work provided health care, and I never use it. (Thank God I haven’t had to b/c I am blessed with health so far)

~For all those who hate to share, and don’t want to help pay for anyone else’s health care… I am sick and tired of paying my taxes to build roads, and support tha FAA, and keep a military in place for you. Build your own road if you want to drive somewhere. Lay out your own airporats, and hire your own air traffic controllers. I hear Blackwater is a great private army for you to hire. I’m done carrying others.~

@mrrich724 And if your house gets broken into and you get shot, you can pay for your own damned cops and EMTs because you sure as hell aren’t using the ones that the rest of us chipped in for!
Oh, and get off of our roads!

@jerv

but I chip in for the police and the EMT’s so I will use them should the need arise. Since I WORK for that service. I’m a taxpayer as well as providing insurance for myself. In fact, I pay a helluva lot of taxes.

So thanks but no thanks.

Oh, and as you could probably tell, (by the fact that I don’t support this) I am also a gun owner, so when my house gets broken into, the lowlives who did it would probably need the medical attention more than me. And they’ll probably be the ones without insurance.

What a dumbass comment: “Since you don’t support paying for other peoples’ health care, don’t use the services your tax dollars are already paying for” . . . psh.

If I didn’t chip in with taxes for roads, I wouldn’t have another alternative. I am ok with that. But guess what? I HAVE insurance, b/c I do something to get it. So I am NOT interested in paying for others to have it.

If my job or money provided me an alternative to the roads that already existed, I probably would use those instead. And they would probably be a lot better than the shit I drive on now in Los Angeles.

I don’t see the parallel.

@mrrich724 “If I didn’t chip in with taxes for roads, I wouldn’t have another alternative. I am ok with that. But guess what? I HAVE insurance, b/c I do something to get it. ”

So you think that the poor choose to be poor, that anybody who isn’t a lazy fucker can afford insurance and still have enough left over for bills, and are otherwise so far removed from reality that I must question your sanity. I agree that anybody who can work should be working, but that isn’t always possible.

What you fail to see here is the really-real world where the actual jobless rate is close to 20% (the official figures only count those collecting unemployment, not those who are no longer eligible because this “slowdown” has gone on so long) and many of those people are barely making ends meet, sometimes forgoing insurance to afford things like food and rent.

Do you really not give a shit about 10+% of our country? Do you honestly not care how much they suffer as long as you are comfy? What would you do if your job went away, your savings were gone, nobody would hire you, and then you needed medical care?

You are correct that there are no alternatives for the roads. For millions of Americans, there are no alternatives for jobs or healthcare. The sooner you accept that fact, the sooner I will stop assuming that you are clinically insane. (Delusions are a symptom of many sever mental illnesses, and I’m trying to figure out which one fits you best.)

Settle down Jerv. gettin’ a little wound up here. The fact is laid off people at some point paid into the medicare trust and therefore are entitled to benefits as I understand the law to be written. I pay premiums out of my benefits to continue to receive medicare so I am paying. I am barely making ends meet as you say, but I also don’t support supplying medical care for people who aren’t paying or paid into the trust. watch yer language, kids are reading and he should be buddies with you because he is probably using a PC

No, I believe that we live in America, and there should be a line drawn somewhere as to how much of our money is taken without asking to do with whatever people please. There are people poorer than I, and there are people much richer than I. I help the less fortunate with means that I choose, and I never put my hand out asking for something I feel like I deserve just because I feel that way. My quality of life can go way up with certain things I can’t afford. I don’t bitch about it, I deal with what I am given.

What’s more insane: having an opinion, or believing that someone who doesn’t agree with you must have a mental illness?

And I said nothing about the poor choosing to be poor. And the fact that I disagree with this issue doesn’t mean that I don’t give a shit about 10 or whatever % of the country.

There is a difference. What is the % of the country that uses roads? And they are being used every second of every day. I’d guess (without truly knowing, that it’s well above 50% of people in America using our roads).

Even if 20% of America can’t afford health care, it is not a majority number, and in America, I don’t believe it should be decided for me that I should pay for it.

@majorrich I’m using a Mac. Don’t go there ;)

<<—- Proud Mac User.

Well @majorrich if everyone had a Mac, I really think their quality of life truly would go up. And that is no joke.

SOOOO, why don’t you chip in so everyone can have one? (That IS a joke)

I simply re-allocated my modest resources so I could have a clearly superior tool. Jerv likes to have his chain pulled about PC’s. the be all and end all of computing because he can build them cheap

I think if everybody had comfortable shoes we could achieve world peace.

[mod says] Flame off, folks. Let’s not make this personal.

Goodnight all :)

Notice how everyone is saying “I’m not opposed to everyone having healthcare, but…”

Meaning they really are.

Why are people horrified by the idea of chipping in for the benefit of their fellow Americans? To me it seems like it should just be common fucking decency.

If everyone didn’t bitch about having a government-provided healthcare option, then they wouldn’t have had to sign legislation to force everyone to purchase is, which is what the same people are bitching about now.

Oh, and here’s some news, guys. EVERY goddamn bill that gets passed has extra, unrelated stuff tacked onto it. It’s not new. So if you’re only finally discovering this because you like to nitpick through the healthcare bill to find every possible thing wrong with it, then that’s your problem.

Don’t just scratch the surface of politics so that you have just enough information to yell “Obama is a socialist!” and then continue on in your ignorance.
Ok that rant wasn’t really directed at anyone I just needed to get it off my chest.

Has anybody seen Gridlocked? that movie just about summarizes everything that is sick with American society and the healthcare system.

Here’s the thing about the police/fire/roads examples. Taxpayers pay into the system for this common benefit, and we enjoy the security of knowing that if we really need them, police or firefighters will come, and we can get to work on roads that are more or less paved. All of us do – even the people that are too poor to pay much in taxes. (We can argue about the way poor people are served by the cops, but the ideal is that cops are there to protect the whole community, not just the people that pay into the tax system.)

Many of us see medical care as being on par with police and fire protection. Having it in place benefits the whole community. (If my neighbor’s house catches fire, by God I want the firetrucks to come, whether or not he can pay much in taxes, because it would suck if his house caught my house on fire. Similarly, the more crime that the cops keep down in the poorer neighborhoods, the less likely I am to be mugged on my way through them. This isn’t even altruism, this is pure self interest which ought to appeal to everyone reading.)

I feel the same way about my poorer neighbors being able to see some kind of doctor when they’re sick. I’m thinking of people so poor that they forgo a doctor visit or a prescription because they need the money to feed their kids, and then end up dying and sticking the hospital and the taxpayers with a bill that’s tens of thousands of dollars when it could have been prevented. This is not a stretch of the imagination, folks. (Little Deamonte Driver could have been saved by getting his teeth cleaned regularly, but his family couldn’t afford medical care. So he died, but the cost for his final care could total more than $250,000.)

The point here is – I don’t hear anyone really suggesting that only taxpayers should have their housefires put out – we tried that and it didn’t work so well. We’re all interconnected. And whether you believe healthcare is a “right” (I’m not one of these, by the way) or if you are motivated by pure self-interest or if you simply want to live in a society that won’t let you fall flat if you stumble, public health care makes sense.

@majorrich I am sure that many of the non-working people out there have also paid in at one point or another. And by your logic, unemployment is also verboten since the majority of people who can work are working at the moment.
I think you should also read @laureth‘s post here to show that opposition to universal healthcare is penny-wise and pound-foolish. I’d gladly pay a few extra bucks now to avoid having my wallet raped later.

@mrrich724 I used to feel the same way, but Apple lost me long ago. It isn’t just the cost.

Agree with @laureth. Furthermore, to continue her analogy, it would suck to catch someone else’s contagious disease because that person couldn’t afford the medication to eradicate it.

@rahm_sahriv “My opposition is in the riders and concern about paying for it in the current bill that the president has signed (that means nothing, it won’t take effect for four years and still hasn’t passed the Senate).” Did you voice your concerns to your politician about the 84 to 108 billion (that I billions with a ‘B’) dollars we will spend in Iraq this year because some egomaniacal cowboy wanted to use the US military as his own Luca Brasi to settle a family vendetta? When I think of how that money could be used here in the US it could have cleaned up the mess Katrina made, put a new computer lab in at least 80% of the schools nation wide, helped more than half the students with tuition to a state or UC college, got scores of homeless off the street and still might have had more left. Anyone who tries to say “I can’t vote for it because of the poke” when a whole side of beef is roasting don’t wash with me. @majorrich take note also we all end up paying for stuff we didn’t sign on for, with healthcare at least it is spent here and not a sandy desert.

@laureth “If you don’t have the money for treatment, you can still be stabilized in most hospital emergency rooms, that much is true. That doesn’t mean they won’t bill you. People have gone bankrupt from not being able to pay those bills. Perhaps if you’re the transient sort, you can disappear and the taxpayer and the hospital will pay for the treatment (thanks to GWBush), but that doesn’t mean that the vast majority of people can just waltz in to the ER and get “totally free treatment” like everyone seems to think.” We bump heads but that is why I luv ya, because a lot of times in a lot of things you are spot on. And it IS those hospital visits that drive up the cost of insurance premiums in part. 3 years ago I ended up in the ER because I have an obstruction. I knew something was wrong but I didn’t have the coverage to go have it checked out. The coverage I did have the best I could get out of it was a prescription for some polls that did not work. Then on Halloween night I woke from a sound sleep in the most pain I ever felt, and when I started pissing blood it was ER time. My coverage only covered part of it, I still got a bill. Those who can’t pay the bill get to have their credit ruined to save their life maybe, To cover that I am sure hospitals pad ALL their other procedures which in turn get passed on to insurance companies. So people who say they don’t want to pay for the care of others already are in a backdoor way. If I would have had coverage I could have found out early and the treatment would have been far cheaper and less pain for me.

rahm_sahriv If I could afford to pay for the ER would it not be logical I could have paid for treatment earlier when it WAS cheaper?

@Hypocrisy_Central You make too much sense and bring too much reality here to be believed by those who have already made up their minds. I’ve wasted a lot of time talking to walls; don’t make the same mistake I did and still do.

Afraid of change.

Because we know that it’s not about health.
It’s about taxation and government control.

@laureth There’s a far more significant aspect to the apples and oranges that are local and state socialized programs versus federal socialized programs.
Police and Fire examples are state, county and city systems.
National ‘Healthcare reform’ would be federal system, a terrifying and unconstitutional precedent.

@CodePinko I can see being concerned about government run amok, but think it’s a far stretch to see the healthcare reform bill as a case of that. After all, Obama campaigned on a promise to reform healthcare, and he won by a large margin (about 10 million votes).

Looking around the world at places like Somalia and Darfur I would worry more about living under an ineffective government than our democracy deciding to convert itself into a fascist state. You can have too much of a good thing or too little. Both extremes bite.

Get used to it, @CodePinko… if you don’t sign onto everything we’ve already got, the only alternative that some see is Somalia or Haiti.

@CyanoticWasp The worst case scenario scenario?
Available at Strawman TM brand arguements dealers nationwide?

@CodePinko & @CyanoticWasp And the evil gubment ruins everything argument is different in what way? Strawman 101 and you launched your strawman before I launched mine. :-)

LOL
Mutually Assured Strawmen.

@ETpro once again you mischaracterize my argument. The government doesn’t ruin everything… only the things it tries to control. So far I’m still enjoying sex occasionally, for example.

@CyanoticWasp I don’t think I mischaracterize your argument at all. You’re just wrong again. :-)

I’d say I’d like the government to continue to control the nation’s air traffic. They also did a pretty decent job of cleaning up our air after acid rain started being a problem and rivers started catching on fire.

But I am 1000% in agreement I don’t want a department of spousal relations inspector in my bedroom EVER!

@CyanoticWasp I think that that is because you are heterosexual. Of course, in some places here in the US, certain acts/positions are still illegal even between two consenting, married heterosexuals.
The problem here is that some things that need controls are either uncontrolled or, more often, rather poorly self-regulated. Never trust an alcoholic to monitor their own alcohol intake ;)

I believe it comes down to the cost of healthcare that people are opposed too.

@MorenoMelissa1 I hope they aren’t naive enough to believe that the incredibly high prices are going to suddenly come down if we just maintain the status quo.

@ETpro That sort of hope requires more optimism than I have had since I was 10.

@ETpro @CyanoticWasp @CodePinko What the government controls and what they don’t add to a hill of beans of you are taken out by illness you could have cured IF you had only been able to catch it early enough or suffer less under it had you the ability to diagnose and or treat it. How many people suffered because they had not the resources to be tested for rare illnesses or because they were misdiagnosed because more accurate means were beyond their coverage or out of pocket cost. Be ye concervative, liberal, Democrat or republican cancer or other illness don’t care, it is an equal opportunity inflictor.

@CodePinko – re :“National ‘Healthcare reform’ would be federal system, a terrifying and unconstitutional precedent.”

It’s not as though there is no precedent for healthcare related matters being dealt with on a national level. Medicare for example – if that were unconstitutional, it would have been struck down already. In fact, it goes back a lot further than that:

In July, 1798, Congress passed, and President John Adams signed into law “An Act for the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen,” authorizing the creation of a marine hospital service, and mandating privately employed sailors to purchase healthcare insurance.

This legislation also created America’s first payroll tax, as a ship’s owner was required to deduct 20 cents from each sailor’s monthly pay and forward those receipts to the service, which in turn provided injured sailors hospital care. Failure to pay or account properly was discouraged by requiring a law violating owner or ship’s captain to pay a 100 dollar fine. (Source)

@laureth ~We all know that our Founding Fathers were a bunch of Socialists!

@jerv If healthcare for all equals socialism or communism and healthcare for those who can afford it (usually the wealthy) is greedy capitalism how does Democracy provide equal access to health to ALL of its citizens not just those deemed indigent? Or is Democracy just to provide equal housing, education, and law but when it comes to health you are on your own? {:-? Just want to know

@Hypocrisy_Central You are comparing apples and orangutans.

Democracy is how we put policy-makers who have the best interests of the people in mind into office and thereby shape policy. Those policies help shape whether we are Socialist, Capitalist, or in-between. In other words, you don’t burn an axe; you use the axe to cut down a tree and burn the tree.

@jerv So to achieve health care for everyone which will get the job done? And it is is socialist in nature how could that be bad or worse if one of the others leave the less fortunate in the dust or favor only those who have deep pockets or something? Sometimes you can’t have all the cake and eat it too.

@Hypocrisy_Central Sometimes if you say let them eat cake too often, it is bad for the health of even the most privileged set. We don’t have to debate and guess about whether adequate healthcare can be provided to everyone or not. Almost every other developed nation on earth does it and most get better healthcare outcomes than the US at aaround half the cost per capita that we pay.

ETpro Yes, we all know that other industrialized nations provide care for all but half the people here in the US don’t like the way they do it. They also don’t want to be seen as on the side of the greedy Wall Street fat cats as only those who can pay their way. I ask if that is the case those who don’t want to do it the way it works (how others have done it) what better ideal do they have?

@Hypocrisy_Central
“I ask if that is the case those who don’t want to do it the way it works (how others have done it) what better ideal do they have?”
None really, I mean, the prevailing attitude seems to be that the poor choose to be poor and that the only people who can’t afford healthcare and a good education are those too lazy and/or stupid to survive.
There is also the pride element; we are better than everyone else and the only way to stay better is to be different and not do what everyone else does. For instance, other countries get around the oil problem by selling/driving more efficient vehicles. We get around it by… the Hummer H2?!
In the eyes of many, other nations are Socialist so anything they do must be a step closer to Communism, and we all know how evil that is. Not that that is right, but perception is reality when it comes to mob mentality.

I think we both agree that there are things about this issue that don’t make sense.

Oh yeah Jerv!

I tell ya: the asians are getting into more efficient means to move and we are still in the Cadillac era. Oh yeah!
Go get a brand brand new fifty thousand dollars twelve cylinders Cadillac right now yes!!
 Yeah. Hey, don’t forget… when you get it, don’t forget to put it on your brand new seventy-four percent apr brand new credit card that has just arrived on your mail box! Yeah.

@DocteurAville Hey, gas doesn’t burn itself, so if Asia and Europe are driving high-MPG vehicles then America has to drive 11-MPG SUVs :D

I would keep my butt on a bike if I knew I could receive, and afford a regular physical so some damn prostate cancer don’t sneak up on me, only to have me find out when I really can’t afford any treatment and just wait around while it kills me.

And all this time I thought you were a woman. Duh me.

Jerv

I just seen a commercial for Nissan LEAF. The thing is electric. But hey, it is small… That doesn’t fit on the regular American status. Nah. ” I want a big one ”. Meanwhile, our dependency on “their” oil allow them to build New Babylon.

As long tv keep telling your ass that you are the smart one, you just IS.

@CyanoticWasp When in doubt check the profile out :-)

@DocteurAville Have you seem most Americans? It is not that we want to drive big cars most of of won’t fit into ANYTHING else short of a Peterbuilt. I guess it is their turn at being Babylon, our time to be Babylon has to run out sometimes, happens to everyone, the Ottomans, Rome, Pharaoh, etc.

@DocteurAville Wait for the Tesla Model S…. or just convert your existing vehicle. However, HC raises a good point. You should’ve seen my father-in-law trying to get into the type of cars I’ve had. The /87 Corolla was the tightest squeeze, though the ‘94 Corsica and ‘90 Civic were close. He nearly went through the floorboards of my ‘89 Golf. The only rig I ever had that he fit in well was my old Aerostar.

@Hypocrisy_Central yes? Your point about your profile is… ?

@CyanoticWasp If the moniker and avatar is nebulous the profile can tell you who and what gender they are. :-)

@Hypocrisy_Central you’re right… “it could”. Yours doesn’t.

As I say, I had thought that you were a woman (I don’t know why—did you at one time have an avatar or profile that would have made me think that, or did you make statements to that effect? I no longer recall.), but obviously, if you’re worried about being done in by “prostate cancer” then you can’t be a woman. Hence my confusion.

@CyanoticWasp OK I get you. Avatar aside I want a damn yearly physical that won’t break the bank. And I think everyone else should have one to (if they wanted it) you, @jerv, @mattbrowne, @Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard,
@Captain_Fantasy, etc. Get the cigarette while it is still smoldering in the cushions not wait until half the house is burning then run up with a gal bucket and say there is nothing that can be done, you waited too long. Ounce of provention is worth 80 pounds of cure and I think any politician who don’t know that should be taken out back of the Captital and horse whipped.

@Hypocrisy_Central Actually, I have a better idea of what they can do, and it involves horses.

@jerv The visual, the visual!! <running screaming as if with sissors> Now I am not sure I would subject a horse to politicians like that but it would be a thought? What of the women though? One would think “why would he even investigates something like that” Sometimes following curiosity is just that I am sure he didn’t investigated it because he wanted to participate. My brain, SHUT OFF THE VISUAL!!! Mamma….......I may not sleep well tonight.

@Hypocrisy_Central At least I didn’t actually link you to the video. Then again, that would require that I actually search for it, and if it’s all just the same with you, I would rather not.

Hypocrisy_Central
Loosing wheigh is easy, eat less. Pretty simple. No need for complicated or expensive methods. “Even a caveman can do it”.
Pharaoh is gone. I am sure His Majesty have not found any after-life. Afterall.

Jerv
Tesla Model S. I love it. The name in itself will sell millions. More even having if they have David Bowie doing the commercials, as Tesla!
Actually I started seing more and more Smart cars out. Too bad I can’t afford one. Those little things are Mercedez Bens technology.

What happen to GM EV1 ?

Disclaimer: “Even a caveman can do it” is a trademark of its creators and is used here as speech figure. So, if you, any of you, like to sue my ass for misplacing your quote, kiss the caveman’s ass !

@DocteurAville GM cancelled the program, yanked the leases, and crushed every EV1 they could get The Smart car doesn’t get great MPG; the old early-80s VWs (especially the diesels) were better… and better than even the Insight and Prius.
I have to say though, my favorite EV is still the White Zombie Wayland is a cool guy to talk with too… though he seems over-caffeinated most of the time.

@DocteurAville Weight loss is easier than many people think. when I felt I was overweight I are smarter and less and started execising. I did not know diet from shinola but I knew it wasn’t what I eat it was what I would keep. As healthy as I try to eat now I can (and you too) still be hit by some illness out of the blue. What if it was one that had symptoms and you could have avoided it but didn’t because the test was not covered in your insurance or too expensive to pay out of pocket. do you feel it is fair that you be barred from it simply because you were not dropping in money or so poor you hardly had 2 match sticks to rub together?

@Hypocrisy_Central I think you have it backwards. Don’t you really mean “Good health doesn’t mean a hill of beans if you lose your liberty”?

@CodePinko Even those under communism and in the Nazi party (back in 1942) had fun and families, what if they were more free but sick with a chronic desease they could have prevented or treated better but had no access? To lay dying of breast cancer but able to curse the politicians that somehow prevented you from getting health care that could gave you the ability to catch it while you still could be saved…..ummmm…is that really better?

@Hypocrisy_Central Nothing is more important than freedom but I doubt I’ll be able to convince you of that, here, now.

Jerv
Oh man, the White Zombie is just perfect. Right out with of electric door slammers. How nice is that.

I have seen yesterday a piece on tv over California energy nightmare. Also about the hybrid Toyotas being converted to electrical plug-ins. There was even a piece with Schwarzy explaining all the issues they have with renewables, and the political issues involving the solutions. Ending up with nuclear being the most acceptable one, only that there is a ban over there on nuclear, due to not having storage for the depleted fuel out of the plants. Among many other nightmarish tales.

Hypocrisy_Central
Sure is easy. But it takes working —who is going to do that? Of course quit eating isn’t the solution. I should have said, “eat fresh” and have do some exercise.
Instead, many folks go on tales and start taking pills to burn fat. How funny is that?
Alright, feel free to exercise you freedom and take pills, yes, go on eating fast food during the day and at night get a pill that will get rid of all your daily excesses. There are are tons of solutions like this.

@CodePinko Yes freedom is very important, but freedom with out good health is like having a Lamborghini in the driveway sitting on cinder blocks or an apple pie locked in a glass box and you don’t have the key. If I have all the freedom imagined but suffering under a chronic illness I can’t afford to treat that leaves me unable to fuction properly or a disease or cancer how useful is being free, as great as freedom is?

@Hypocrisy_Central I am going to take a guess at the counter-argument here.

You are free to become a multi-millionaire and buy good health. If you don’t become filthy rich then it is because you are lazy and therefore deserve to suffer. Remember, all it takes to make money is hard work; there are plenty of high-paying jobs out there and plenty of risk-free investments, so if you don’t take advantage of those opportunities it’s because you would rather be a parasite and beg for the government to subsidize your existence, which means that they in turn will have to tax the hard-working people like the executives of Goldman Sachs.

If only we could ask those that have died for freedom how they feel about mere illness.

@CodePinko What the hell is that supposed to mean? Who among those resting in peach would want to come back to die slowly of terminal cancer, finally getting to a point where no amount of morphine short of a lethal dose will stop the hideous pain—knowing that every additional day of suffering piles tens of thousands of additional dollars on the bill their family must pay after they die?

Do seriously you think that the soldiers of the UK, or of Germany or France or Canada or Israel all wanted to die because of the oppressive loss of freedom they felt being forced to accept universal health care?

National socialist programs come at the expense of individual liberty.
Those that gave all to protect individual liberty might have something to say to those that were willing to give up liberty for something lesser than the ultimate sacrifice (their health).

@CodePinko I think it does a disservice to soldiers killed in WWII to equate their sacrifice in the battle against Nazi domination to the “sacrifice” of having universal health care. Shame.

@CodePinko I guess you never read the Patriot Act….

@CodePinko You didn’t answer my question about the feelings of the soldiers of the UK, or of Germany or France or Canada or Israel. But change the subject if that one is too hot to handle.

If you really want total liberty, what’s keeping you from just moving to Somalia. If the freedom to do anything you want with absolutely no restraints or protections from evil gubment is your cup of Tea Party brew, Somalia has everything you could dream of. It’ is a paradise of total liberty.

@CodePinko In order to get a free or affordable physical for test for prostate cancer etc I would allow the government free reign to plunder my home, tap my phone, or snoop through my accounts, emails, and social networks? No. I am not give up EVERY bit of freedom for health care and that is NOT what is going on here. The 1st politician that suggest that sort of thing to me I will schedule for a colonoscopy and make sure they forget the lube. Getting healthcare everyone can afford is not equal to living under the Taliban or the Soviets.

It’s a simple Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs question. The first things you need to have are those which you need to live: oxygen to breathe, food, water, sleep. Once those are reasonably secured, people can try to obtain the next tier of needs: safety, health insurance (and by extension, health), shelter. Then are the social needs, like friends, sex, and community. Then come self-worth, social recognition, and finally, top-echelon goals like self-actualization and fulfilling your potential as a human being. People who don’t have the lower tiers all set (say, they’re starving and/or sick) aren’t going to be able to reach for the higher tiers (such as freedom).

Real world example: why do people give up a big part of their freedom each day for years on end to toil for a boss, abide by company rules, and sacrifice hours of their life that they could be enjoying in any number of ways? Because they need money for food, rent, and insurance.

It doesn’t mean political freedom is unimportant. Many people in this society who have eaten today and have safe homes find it very important to do things like vote and protest and write political arguments on Fluther. I also know of people that are so poor, they sell their votes for cash. If they were able to buy things already, their freedom would mean more to them.

I understand the argument that you need freedom first. I guess it depends on what you mean by “freedom.” In a Capitalist mindset, freedom means the ability to strive for what you need, and Godspeed. It’s important to be able to try for things that you want and need, that’s for sure. However, other people see “freedom” as not having to worry about needing to struggle to get things as basic as health care – and that is why the Soviets had a national health care system. (Did it work? Not the best. But at least they tried.)

This seems to be one of those deep divisions between the Left and the Right on what Democracy is and should be. Very often, the Right claims that everyone has the right to strive for what they need to live, and even though we don’t all start out with equal circumstances, we are free to do our best to change that. And very often, those on the Left claim that we’re not really a Democracy while power inequalities exist, and that for true freedom, we should all have the opportunity to participate (and how participatory can one be when one is hungry and sick, so we have to take care of that first).

In other words, @Hypocrisy_Central and @CodePinko see this from such fundamentally different angles that they may be unable to really perceive where the other is coming from. I doubt that any internet debate back-and-forth is going to change that.

@CodePinko has left the building

@laureth But as you pointed out if you are laying in bed crippled with pain you are not going to the polls. And if could not get that nagging sore throat taken care of until you discover it was throat cancer and not half your jaw is gone, you won’t have much of a voice to speak with unless you want to learn sign lanquage.

@Hypocrisy_Central – this is one subject where we agree.

@laureth YES WE DO, it happens more often than you might think <hugs>

@Hypocrisy_Central Who gives a flying F@@@. LOL