(NSFW) I would like to know what Fluther thinks of this specific situation involving pornography.

Some people normatively respond to fantasies while making love. That is just their sexual style. I think it’s dangerous to ascribe too much meaning to it.

I agree with you. An intimate partner shouldn’t have a problem revealing what they’re thinking during sex and it’s okay to ask in a calm non judgmental manner. However, one can never know the truth as you’ll never be inside their heads. And your ex’s usage of porn to substitute would upset me as well.

The part where you are upset is the part that’s worth discussing, but the part where your SO has fantasies of others while he or she is with you may not be possible for him or her to change.

I think that porn as used by your ex-husband was an addiction. It was not a healthy use of porn.

@dpworkin – What are your thoughts on the “boundaries” issue? And for clarification, this is my ex.

@marinelife – it was one of several.

As with every other form of paraphilia, if it is interfering with the success of your relationship, your partner may wish to consider counseling as a couple. I just warn that he or she may really not be able to change what they do. They may learn to better discuss it and handle it.

”...He used porn as a substitute many times for our sex life. He also used it to give him ideas for fantasies in his head for while we had sex. Obviously, he had issues, but those issues also hurt me. It made me feel like I was merely a “receptacle” for him. He wouldn’t cheat on me, but I also felt like he wasn’t there with me. Personally, I felt dissed when he finally told me this.”

This is understandable and very hurtful because it’s not passive and not anonymous. Who wouldn’t feel like crap knowing their SO needs the fantasy of others in order to get turned on and to engage them? I wouldn’t be able to be with someone with these issues because I already have experienced what it’s like to be genuinely desired and appreciated by SO’s and will accept no less. There’s only so much compromise a person can take on before they feel it’s not enough to feel satisfied. Call your own shots.

I think you do have a problem with porn. I think masturbation after marriage is common. So is mental substitution. I am curious about why you care about this now that you’re no longer with the guy.

@evandad
There’s a huge difference between the man who tells you how he desires you and what all he’d like to do or be doing with you and the man who says, “hold up hon, let’s pop in a video” or, “give me a few minutes, I’ll be right back” or finding out he webcams, sex chats/texts with others but not you. What’s the point of having scraps when someone else is getting the real deal? It may not be physical cheating but it’s still a serving of shite.

@dpworkin -Yes, he was unable to change several habits, including this. It’s why he’s my ex. My current husband and I have talked about this prior to marriage and he told me it wasn’t a problem for him. I’ve felt nothing to the contrary regarding this (as I did with the ex) and have no reason to not believe him.

@evandad – Um, did you miss the part where I said “look & lust” was fine? Did I need to say “look, lust and masturbate?” Obviously masturbation after marriage is common. As to your question of why I care, you also missed the part about where I said the emotional content was gone. I don’t “care” as in “oh gee, why couldn’t he lust for me?” Have you never had a discussion with friends that brought up an old situation? One of the things I like about Fluther is that it’s possible to have a discussion about an idea or concept that might get me slapped on the wrist elsewhere for sexual content.

<gets fingers prepared for lots of typing>

There are certain people (I won’t say just men, because women, although less frequently, can feel this way too) that can not have a satisfying sex life with someone that has the eyes and the mind that can potentially judge them.

Your ex sounds like one of those people.

They choose to think about porn, more than a person (separating themselves mentally from the person their with), because it reduces the anxiety about being judged sexually.

This is very, very common, although it is rarely admitted to. These people are not “bad” or “wrong”, their just inhibited sexually for a variety of reasons.

Let me give you a rather graphic example: When a person uses the restroom, they need privacy because of a sense of vulnerability. They do not feel comfortable with the presence of another person there.

It is a similar circumstance, with the act of sex for some individuals. They desire arousing images, but do not desire the conscious presence of another human being because of the vulnerability they feel during arousal and orgasm.

(@tedibear39 I studied sexual psychology, independently for four years because of similar feelings that I needed to understand. Before I educated myself, I thought they were my fault, etc, etc…but I digress)

As far as his actions hurting you, the way I feel about it is, regardless of the act itself, if he knew something he was doing was hurting you emotionally, and still continued to do it, it is a serious lack of compassion on his part, and you have every right to want to understand more about his choices.

All the best to you.

I like @dpworkin‘s responses (other than use of the term ‘paraphilia’, since I don’t really think that consuming porn [depending on frequency and type of fetish, etc.] is necessarily ‘abnormal’—but I quibble).

Not only do you never know what’s really in his head, but it’s hard enough for him to know, harder to accurately convey what he thinks and feels, and nearly impossible for you to comprehend ‘his true meaning’. That’s the flaw of language in describing metaphysics.

I think you should accept and be glad that he didn’t cheat on you with another person (no matter what was ‘in his head’) ... and continue to work on the relationship if you think that is warranted. And if not, well… you’re exes from each other right? That’s what happens when your ideas are in conflict and the conflicts aren’t resolved or dropped.

I don’t consider paraphilias to be abnormal unless they involve non-consensual sexual sadism, or children.

I like what @MrsDufresne wrote, ”...As far as his actions hurting you, the way I feel about it is, regardless of the act itself, if he knew something he was doing was hurting you emotionally, and still continued to do it, it is a serious lack of compassion on his part.”

Only a wanker would be selfish enough to want to keep you exclusive with him while still doing this stuff behind your back or while you kept silent but knowing about it.

I completely agree with you @tedibear39. The point of having sex with someone is to have sex with that specific person. If someone is going to have sex with you, but then think about someone else: It’s called masturbation. It’s faster, easier, and a whole hell of a lot less rude and demeaning.

It’s sad that he used it in that way. He had some kind of communication problem. My lady and I watched together to get ideas for extra “spices”, although I was sometimes accused of spoiling things by pointing out unsafe practices (typical nerd). It’s unfortunate that you were unable to enjoy it together. He has deeper issues than I feel qualified to comment on.

I still want to hear opinions about what my friend said regarding boundaries and that it wasn’t my business to know. That was what puzzled me. I know my ex had issues and he didn’t get over them, at least while he was with me.

@MrsDufresne – Very interesting comments, thank you. I think you may have described some of his issues regarding vulnerability. He has re-married, so I hope he has worked out some of that. I know his current wife and like her. Although I don’t know if this is something she would care about. Nor does it matter in my world any more.

@dpworkin – thank you for the new vocabulary word of paraphilias! And I’m with you – what people use in the context of a relationship is fine as long as they consent and aren’t harming anyone.

@CyanoticWasp – Why would I want to work on a relationship with someone I divorced in 1996? And yes, I’m glad he didn’t cheat.

@all – I’m going to make dinner now. If I don’t make it back until tomorrow, know that I’m not ignoring you. ;-)

@tedibear39 IMHO, his statement about boundaries was invalid. Sex (at least in it’s purest and loving form) is a joining in more than just a physical way. The sharing should be complete, otherwise it’s nothing more than a release of primal urges.

Thinking of somebody else is no big deal. Wouldn’t you rather him get off on that rather than actually going out there and screwing other women?

@tedibear39 ”I still want to hear opinions about what my friend said regarding boundaries and that it wasn’t my business to know. That was what puzzled me.”

It seems like your friend was sticking their nose in where it didn’t belong. Maybe your friend was projecting their own issues by suggesting this to you? I don’t really know why they would tell you that your own husband’s choices were not your business. In my humble opinion, your friend should have taken a good look at the three fingers pointing back at them, before pointing one at you and your (ex)husband.

@tedibear39
I more or less agree with the opinions you express in the question.

“He used it to give him ideas for fantasies in his head while we had sex.”
But that’s similar to what you said was ok, ie “lust for blondes” in your example. If the guy has a lust for blondes, then he’ll fantasise you’re a blonde while he’s doing it with you, or imagine you’ve got bigger boobs that you really do, or that you’re of a different race, or even of a different gender.

And yes, to go to the next point, you can’t control what goes on inside his head. Which doesn’t exactly mean “it’s none of your business” (I can imagine how a debate can get a little polarised like that). Of course it is your business, and it’s ok if you feel threatened and/or used. But at the same time, you can’t tell the guy what to think. And in most cases, he can’t control it himself anyway. If he gets turned on thinking you’re a blonde, let him do that. The only reason why your fellow-speaker insists that it’s not appropriate for you to know something like that is that, as it turns out, this knowledge takes away from your experience. And perhaps your ex shouldn’t have told you.

It’s not a question of right and wrong. And it’s an interesting issue:

Let’s say a heterosexual man is having sex with his wife. If he imagines he’s having sex with a man, is he gay? If he imagines he’s having sex with a child, is he a paedophile? And similarly, if he imagines he’s having sex with another woman, doesn’t that in a way constitute cheating?

I think because heterosexuals are the majority, and because even cheating is not so uncommon (and not just in our times), cheating in one’s mind is not seen as a big deal. In my example above, if your ex told you he was fantasising about little boys while having sex with you, you’d freak out completely. But if he’s fantasising you’re Angelina Jolie is mildly annoying, and if he’s just imagining it’s you 10 years ago or with a slightly tighter figure, then you wouldn’t even care.

ps incidentally I consider porn to be ok in any situation. People can watch whatever they want, as long as it’s legal. I don’t see why someone watching too much porn is any worse than someone watching too many horror movies or sci-fi films. The only problem I have with porn is that there is no plot and the stories are cheesy and the acting terrible. So it only serves one purpose: to turn you on. In this sense, it’s about as boring as instruction manuals and cooking shows, and infinitely more boring than any BBC documentary about polar bear hibernation habits.

@tedibear39 I think your friend was out of line. The “boundaries” dissolve when; a. You’re in a committed relationship and b. His penis is inside of you. This is a mutual sharing both physical and spiritual. You are spiritually binding yourself to someone with who you have sex. You share an intimacy based on certain assumptions which you have every right to make. One of those assumptions is that he is making love with you and that his focus is on you, not some bullshit in his head. That dismisses you and turns you into nothing more than a receptacle and it’s without your knowledge and consent.
I don’t like that and though the “relationship” is over, I can understand your questions now. It is a violation and a lie in which you were an unknowing participant. You need closure of some sort, I’d suspect.
Cheers.

Men are simply hard-wired to have different sexual interests than women are. We are programmed to get bored easily and to want to fertilize as many flowers as we can. In a way, monogamy is unnatural to a man’s natural instinct, so if he needs to fantasize and use other techniques to fight off his instinctual urges to explore new places then I think it’s perfectly reasonable as long as he’s not actually cheating on you and giving you lots of orgasms.