The burqa ban is growing increasingly popular in Europe. Is its goal pro women's rights or prejudice against Islam?

I think it is pretty parochial of you to think that the Western way is the only way. I think the ban on the burqa is mostly based on anti-Islamic feeling.

This is a question that bears re-raising but you might want to also look at some of the answers to a similar question I asked here .

Nothing enforced upon women is pro-women’s rights.

It is an ugly, culture-bound, crypto-racist mistake that is going to bite them in the ass.

To answer the current question, I believe that Europe is coping badly with the results of its colonial legacy. Most of the countries have been homogenous societies for much of their history and are now dealing poorly with the influx of new immigrants. Cultural change can’t and shouldn’t be imposed by fiat and I agree with @dpworkin that it is xenophobic and racist. Just as America, fortunately, has succeeded to the extent that it has by being a (somewhat messy) melting pot, Europe must find ways to both intergrate and honor the cultures of its immigrants.

I think the most positive thing about it is quelling a public safety risk.

In most places in America, it’s illegal to enter a public building or a business with your face covered (i.e., by a mask).

@Seek_Kolinahr One really has to wonder why of all measures to quell a public safety risk, this is what they believe will be their best bet? Right, because this measure won’t get extremists angrier than they are, as is.

I was wondering how they address the burqa issues on planes. Surely there is a way to provide for security while still allowing burqas? I feel the “safety” issue is a McGuffin.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

I agree wholeheartedly.

Personally, I am of the firm belief that if an action causes no harm to someone other than the one choosing to act in that manner, it should be allowed. Likewise, if something causes harm to those not participating, it should be disallowed.

Why do we have laws against using drugs in one’s own home, but not a law requiring senior citizens with degenerating eyesight and motor function to take periodic aptitude tests? Why do we disallow students from bringing their own Advil to school, but allow them to text message while driving?

I think if someone wants to hide, they can do so without a burqua. Hell, the guy that shot two police officers last week hid for four days with six police forces looking for him, until the reward got big enough for his friend to convince him to turn himself in. I say let the women wear what they choose (yes, they choose their religion), but I do think they should be required to be photographed sans burqa for identification purposes.

I’ve been of two minds on this. Part of me would like to see women embrace being women and seeing women covered from head to toe rankles. BUT it is their choice albeit a difficult one in some families.

We had a similar situation in Canada where Sikh men wanted to wear their kirpans and they were being cracked down on by police. It went to the Supreme Court of Canada and the court ruled in favour of religious tolerance. I’ve yet to hear of one case where a kirpan has been used in anger to wound or kill.

What the European nations need to realize is that once families have been in your country for one generation the subsequent generations tend to moderate to a societal normal. We’ve seen it happen time and again here in Canada. I can imagine for newly arrived immigrants this thought may be alarming as their culture is understandably important to them.

All these nations are doing by cracking down on the burka is unnecessarily upsetting these immigrants. Nothing good can come of it.

I agree with @Seek_Kolinahr that the government can not allow burqas for safety reasons. Although, someone one pointed out to me that anyone can wear a disguise and a big muumuu dress.

Also, I think it is probably statistically likely that women who wear burqa’s are not as educated or don’t have any real exposure to the outside world and the mindset of people in a free society and women who have equal rights. For this reason I feel like they do not have choice and liberty in their own lives. But, I guess if they are in their own community or schools on private property, maybe I am ok with the burqa. Similar to the Amish living as a separate community.

@tranquilsea It is true that within a generation or two the “children” typically begin to conform to their new country, but that has been our observation among immigrants who had parents who were fairly western minded anyway. That was the reason they typically came to America for instance was to escape either poverty or opression in their own countries. In fact back in the day of my grandparents there was a strong push for children to be “American” and fit in by the parents. Thi sis part of the reason many of us don’t speak the language of our grandparents and great grandparents, back then they feared we would have accents that would make us different.

Have you actually seen children and grandchildren of people who wear burqas become totally westernized and assimilate fully?

I do think that part of going to a new country, is choosing that country because you want to be part of it. I don’t really get trying ot maintain customs that are not part of the culture at all. why don’t they go to Jordan, Dubai, or some other part of the middle east rather than Europe? I never understood that.

@marinelife really, you thnk the anti-burqa law are ” based on anti-Islamic feeling”. Frankly, I’m a-religious. I don’t care about your religion as long as it does not try to influence me. I am (since I have daughters) pro-women’s rights. I see the burqa as the sign of men, insecure in their manhood and self control, degreading women to make themselves feel superior. I notice muslim men, living in the west freely adopting western attire. I just think that the same right should be held by muslim women.

@janbb you are correct. I first became sensitive to this when I saw the French bring up the subject. My instinct was to accuse the French of infringing on religious rights of it’s citizens. Later I saw the burqa as further subjugation of women which I really hate.

There are some primitive Muslim sects that practice female circumcision and I wonder if they are trying to import that to Europe also.

@dpworkin which is “an ugly, culture-bound, crypto-racist mistake that is going to bite them in the ass.” The burqa or banning the burqa?

@Ron_C Pretty sure @dpworkin means banning the burqa is the mistake.

@Ron_C Banning the Burqa. (Sounds like a good name for a band.)

@Ron_C I agree; there’s a conflict in me on this issue between the cultural/religious rights of Muslims and feminism, but I come down on the side of feeling the state should not be allowed to impose the restriction. There are better ways to encourage the emancipation of women.

I see that the general consensus is to let them wear the burqa. My personal prejudice is that it is a way to subjugate and marginalized women. I also hear that many of the immigrants to Europe are trying to change their adopted country to conform with their personal religious doctrine. Even to threatening to deface pig sculptures in public parks and demanding that “Animal Farm” be banned from the curriculum in British public schools.

When my great grand parents came to the United States, they tried, and taught their children to adopt American culture. Why else emmigrate? I thought the idea was to go to someplace that had a superior culture and opportunity, not to denigrate your adopted country.

So Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn should take off those silly hats and start eating bacon? Please.

@janbb I think too much respect is already accorded to religion. I believe that you can practice your particular belief as long as it does not infringe on people’s rights.

@dpworkin the traditional dress of the Orthodox Jews is advertising their devotion and placing themselves above ordinary people. I personally think it’s silly but it’s like fancy feathers on a peacock. The burqa and veils are a sign of mortification, shame, and subjugation.

Dictated by religious beliefs that are not trans-cultural, are not merely an immigration issue, and are not our business.

Perhaps the ban on the burqa has to do with making it harder for armed suicide bombers to mingle in crowded place as much as it has to do about making a statement for the rights of Muslim women.
However, it is showing disrespect for the tenets a faith that some Muslims, including women, choose to observe. And it may make very orthodox women painfully uncomfortable to be publicly exposed.

When Europeans colonized non-Euro countries, they imposed their way of life on the indigenous peoples, and they were supposed to roll over and accept it. Europeans had the nerve to wage war and violently force those countries to bend to their will. But now that the shoe is on the the other side of the room on the floor nowhere near their foot, they’re upset? What arrogance. It’s not even as if Muslims are trying to force European women to wear the burqa.

People are always afraid deep down that their sins will return upon them tenfold, so they they get all panicky and create laws such as this one to try and stave off “retribution”. I know there’s got to be a word for this.

@aprilsimnel Pretty good analysis. Not really provable, but it sure sounds right.

I’ve read a few news reports on this and find it interesting. In the USA, we have freedom of speech. Actions taken are another matter.

Several women in the neighborhood wear burqas. One lady was out mowing the lawn in the sweltering afternoon heat dressed in a burqa yesterday. My first reaction was of pity. And then it dawned on me that if she ever saw me mowing the lawn in a bathing suit and shorts, she might have felt the same way.

I have not read this whole thread, but the impression I got is that the burqa ban is basically the same reason that you are not allowed to wear a ski mask into a bank lobby; security. Now, they might let up a bit it the women agreed to some form of unforgeable ID that could be read at a distance, but as even RFID tags can be forged, the simplest solution is to make sure that you can see a persons face, or at least enough of it to make a fairly positive ID.

Of course, there is a cultural barrier there and we all know that not complying 100% with the wishes of the minority is discrimination….

Banning clothing is oppressive bullshit.

Even if someone thought such a ban were intended to free women from abuse, then they should start with their own culture, by banning Hooters costumes, stripper outfits, or whatever other Western clothing that Western feminists find abusive to women, before focusing on Islamic clothing that some Westerners say are abusive to women.

It’s just b.s. as far as I see.

The security issue, and the idea that not exposing one’s face in public is a treat, is also b.s..

@Zaku I agree with you completely but for some people “not exposing one’s face in public is a treat.” :-)

@Zaku Cover your face everywhere you go, even when you are getting a picture taken for a driver’s license, and see how far you get.

BTW, how many of these bans extend to the Niqab?

@aprilsimnel are you seriously suggesting that the Europeans bend over backwards to accomodate people that want to change the character of the entire continent?

@Zaku I like the idea of banning clothes in public.

@Ron_C, nope. I’m just pointing out that they’ve done to others what they’re terrified of being done to them, and I think it’s ironic.

Anyway, the point of feminism is that adult women get to decide for themselves how they want to live, short of hurting others, regardless of who agrees with it. Burqas don’t hurt others, they just scare Europeans, which is what this is banning issue is really all about: the fear in Europe that they’ll suddenly become Muslim nations run by scary brown people who’ll put Europeans under the sword.

@aprilsimnel frankly burqas scare me. The represent a backward look at society, a complete subjugation to a set of values and religious notions that I find repellent.

Maybe the Europeans should be afraid of being overcome by religious zealots.

These days we hear a lot about people in the middle east that want to get even with us for what our ancestors did. Even though my ancestors were being terrorized and mistreated at the same time, I am uncomfortable with people coming to my country demanding respect and obedience from me. I can sympathize with the Europeans. They seem to attract the militants more than normal immigrants.

@Ron_C And how do you disambiguate this view from, say racial profiling in the US. What should we do about Negroes? Some “White” people are frightened by them.

@dpworkin not even the same thing. First of all Blacks have always been part of our country. Most of their ancestors were brought here forcibly but their descendants are now part of our culture. The only thing they did to our culture was force us to look at how we treated them and how we can be a better nation.

Black people don’t try to force us to accept their religious values, they don’t treat their women as chattel, they’re just Americans and we are a better country because that are here.

What Muslim ever tried to force you to adapt his or her religious views? Quit with the sophistry. You want it to be OK to discriminate against Muslims, so you make up reasons. It’s still bigotry, even though you think it can be defended.

@dpworkin I didn’t say that a Muslime tried to force me to do anything. One guy did talk me into going down a sliding chute where I ripped my pants. I am just trying to understand why the Europeans should be nervous.

This is the first time I have heard of immigrants coming to a country and change the country instead of adapting to the country…..at least in recent history

Nonsense. In Chinatown in New York there are people who have been citizens for three generations who speak no English, wear native costume and eat sea-cucumber. They don’t demand you do anything, and no Muslim has ever demanded that a Western French Caucasian ever wear a Burqa. Find me one case where Muslims in France ever insisted that other French people adopt Sharia law, and I will become your toilet slave for a month. (Limited offer.)

@JLeslie it is probably statistically likely that women who wear burqa’s are not as educated or don’t have any real exposure to the outside world and the mindset of people in a free society and women who have equal rights Is it? What statistics are these? These kinds of statements really throw me because there are so many ‘free women’ here in the US who have no clue about their rights and who are so goddamn ignorant and are so implicit in their own sexism that it’s sickening.

@aprilsimnel I don’t see the two examples as equal. The instance of asking new immigrants to conform, people who are arriving in the new country for what I would assume is because they want to be there, came of their own free will, is different than a country occupying another land and forcing the indigenous people to conform.

I do however quite often tell racists in the south in the US that it is ironic that they hate blacks and now they have to live among them more than other parts of the country. Their is some irony and justice in that. It is similar to what you are saying I guess.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Good point, I’ll see if I can find some stats. As I stated it was an assumption I was making. And, I want to be clear I am not talking about Muslims in general, just people who cover their whole bodies including their faces. I also agree there are a lot of free women who are idiots in this country. I like to think the more educated the less stupid, but I know that is not always true.

@JLeslie, I think that being “overrun” is what’s really at issue, and that the “protection and/or liberation of women” is a smokescreen. That’s all. I’m sure women were wearing what they always wore, but now that the percentage of Muslims in European countries has reached a tipping point, the fear has ramped up.

How much are people obligated to change themselves to please the majority? These countries sold themselves on being places where people can live freely if they aren’t hurting someone else. If women wearing burqas aren’t hurting anyone, and are behaving within the laws where they live, then how they conduct their private lives, including what they wear, is no one’s business, I believe.

If, all of a sudden, fundamentalist Muslim or Islamist women in France and Holland rose up, staged coups and demanded the indigenous women of those countries to wear burqas and submit, then, sure, it’s a problem. If that’s not happening, then who has the right?

Plus, I mentioned European colonialism, which only was accelerated because Europeans had superior weaponry. What Europe is afraid of now, in my opinion, is“colonialism” by Muslims via demographic shift.

Interesting article by a Muslim British woman on the subject.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1195052/Why-I-British-Muslim-woman-want-burkha-banned-streets.html

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I cannnot find a statistic for the average education of women in the UK who wear burqas. I can find information about Afghanastan, how females were not allowed to go to school and were forced to wear burqas, but I wouldn’t generalize that philosophy or culture to Muslims in the UK. I can’t seem to find stats from other Muslim countries either.

@JLeslie Well, there are many countries not allowing education for female children and many of these aren’t Muslim so it’s just about global sexist policies.

In the 2,000 or so years the Europeans have been dealing with Islam (and the Moors invaded and occupied Iberia, you will remember) no one had a problem with this until 9/11, and now all of a sudden it’s crucial?

@dpworkin I frankly don’t know how intrusive the immigration of Muslims into France has become. I assume that as they become the majority, they will work to have French law conform to their ideas of justice. I do know that in England they have tried to have “George Orwell’s “Animal Farm” banned because of its portrayal of pigs as characters and how about this story:“LEICESTER—Police here in central England seized a collection of porcelain pigs from a house’s window sill after Muslims complained that they were offensive.” There are also stories in England about council members not being allowed to drink at meeting during Ramadan. If it is happening in Britain, France can’t be far behind.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I agree that females are not allowed to be educated in many countries, I am not trying to pick on the Muslims specifically, or Arab countries. I just would still assume that women who are educated are less likely to wear a burqa.

@dpworkin Seems you have a point there. I guess 9/11 and other terrorist acts make people more nervous in general about massive violence. And, we, in the world are more aware of these things every time they happen. I think if a bunch of Scottish Catholics were covering up their faces and bodies and walking around town we would not be happy either. I don’t like when someone walks into the store I work in with big baggy clothes that they can easily hide shoplifted items. White, black, Hispanish, Jewish, Muslim, I don’t care what they are. My girlfriend, who happens to black originally thought it was racist to always have the cameras on black kids, but then when someone explained it is on all people who dress like that, she understood. It just turns out that statistically the black kids wore baggy clothes more often.

@RonC Those are anecdotes. How the fuck do I know they really happened? You didn’t even provide a source. I can tell you stories about how Black men have irresistible urges to rape White women, and how Jews use the blood of Christian children to make their unleavened bread, and that they poison wells.

@Ron_C I don’t get it? Non-Muslims could not drink at the meeting?

@JLeslie that’s the way I read it. The police didn’t want to upset the Muslims. Does this qualify for you to start cleaning my lavatory? By the way, it need wall paper too.

@Ron_C Could it have been out of respect? When Account Executives brought in food as a treat or for a training meeting for my men’s fragrance staff when I worked at Bloomingdale’s we almost always brought in Kosher food for everyone, because she was Orthodox.

@JLeslie I don’t know – I’ve read so many different accounts from Muslim women on why they choose to wear the Burqa and in some instances, it is because they’re more educated and I especially am interested in reasons of wanting to not have sexist men be able to see and judge their bodies…it’s certainly an interesting commentary on our culture…I wish I can wear a burqa sometimes just to know what it feels like to be hidden.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir there are many ways for women to deal with sexist men, in Italy they just turn around and smack them. In New Jersey, a guy could get knifed for saying the wrong thing to a woman. (I really like New Jersey women but am very respectful) I think an educated western woman would feel very degraded.

@Ron_C Right, well I am a pacifist – no voluntary violence from me (only in self-defense if I feel in danger).

@Simone_De_Beauvoir good for you, women worry me anyway, armed they are more worrisome.

@Ron_C um, okay

They should have the right to wear it if they want to, not all Islamics are fundamentalists.

The stated reason behind these laws is security. No one has a right to conceal their identity in a public place. France adds to this; being a secular state, no religious symbols my be worn in conjunction with state-sponsored activities. There may be anti-Islamic reasons behind these laws, but these are not the stated reasons for having them.

What were the stated reasons for the poll tax and literacy tests for voting in the US?

Someone who is insecure because of a woman’s clothing is a fool and a coward, and when they try to project that fear as a rule, they are a bully.

“No one has a right to conceal their identity in a public place.” Everyone has a right to conceal their identity in a public place. Someone who is insecure because someone is simply choosing to conceal their face is a fool and a coward, and when they try to project that fear as a rule, they are a bully.

Any time the majority uses the law to violate freedoms to choose how to dress, eat or speak, oppression of a minority is likely to result.

No matter how much fear-mongering or sophistry is used to justify such laws they remain at their heart oppression based in a combination of ignorance and hatred.

Overcoming the oppression of women is never accomplished by oppressing some other group.

Freedom involves the right to choose. Religious Muslim women who choose to wear traditional garb intended to preserve their own modesty and free to do so. Many Muslim women who object to these traditions are free to choose otherwise.

There is no social good to be achieved by marginalizing fellow citizens by restricting their rights to live peacefully beside their neighbours while observing different social or religious customs.

I am a Jew and I defend the right of Muslims to practise their faith. Can Christians not do the same?

@Dr_Lawrence sometimes a minority need to be controlled, white supremasists in the U.S. Muslim Fundamentalists in Europe. Their only difference is who they hate.

If I am working in a shop and someone walks in covered from head to toe, all I can see are eyes, first of all how do I know it is a woman, it could be a man with weapons who is impersonating a woman. Many shops do not allow entry with a motorcycle helmet on. I think shop keepers have the rights too and one of them is to know that the person entering is not a threat. One should not have to feel unsafe in one’s own business.

When western women go to a muslim country, they are expected to observe and obey the laws of that country, why is the converse considered racist?

And third, I have said this before, when I moved to Australia I did not try to turn it into another USA, I moved here because I wanted to embrace the life here. If I wanted it to be what I left, I should have just stayed in America to begin with. To me it seems dishonest to have moved here to enjoy the lifestyle and benefits of living in this country but then turn around and try to change it to suit me. I have struggled to learn to speak Australian, I am still a little lost sometimes but I am learning. So why are these men/women moving to a new country if they don’t want to embrace it?

Wait, @Ron_C. I’m sorry, but you are making less and less sense. So we should tell White Supremacists what kind of hats and belt-buckles they must wear? Every Muslim woman is a hater, so we must keep the Burqa off of her, and then she won’t be able to hate any more? Wow, buddy, you really need to slow down and think this through.

@dpworkin I don’t think we let them wear KKK hoods anymore.

That’s not true. It is protected “speech”.

@Ron_C You seem to be conflating the wearing of the burqa with violent jihadist Islam; I don’t think the two are equivalent. As in America, people in Europe should be allowed to express their cultural identity and wear what they want. France has peculiar strictures – in my view -because of their current desire to be a secular state; consider their banning of headscarves, crucifixes and yarmulke wearing in schools. If their primary concern is security, wouldn’t it make sense to convene a council of governmental and religious leaders to resolve screening issues?

I do think there is a great amount of understandable human fear when there is a large, sudden influx of an-Other group into a stable society. This has happened in a small way recently in my town and it can be unsettling. But there are reasonable and unreasonable ways to deal with cultural issues.

@janbb “But there are reasonable and unreasonable ways to deal with cultural issues.”

The best way to deal with something or someone unknown is to make an effort to know them.

This reaction is fear based and I posit that you rarely make good decisions when they are based in fear. I’m sure rounding up the Japanese seemed sensible during WWII. We now know how backwards and brutal that was.

@tranquilsea I completely agree with you.

And to answer @JLeslie “Have you actually seen children and grandchildren of people who wear burqas become totally westernized and assimilate fully?

I actually know a few Muslim women who do not wear burkas. Some wear head scarves, but not burkas. The Muslims who have been here longer tend to be very moderate. But I would need a time machine to see just how this new batch of immigrants will adapt to Canadian life and add their own flair. I am very confident that everything will normalize just as it always has. But the “normal” would be a new normal

I do think that part of going to a new country, is choosing that country because you want to be part of it. I don’t really get trying ot maintain customs that are not part of the culture at all. why don’t they go to Jordan, Dubai, or some other part of the middle east rather than Europe? I never understood that.”

That is melting pot thinking and I like the mosaic picture more. I think people bring interesting parts of their culture with them. I love to hear about the differences in culture and see the differences in culture. I’ve attended Chinese weddings, Hindu weddings, Sikh weddings. I love walking through Chinatown, Little Italy and the Vietnamese parts of town. All without leaving my city.

I think people are drawn to different countries for various reasons. But most often out of necessity.

@janbb And me with you :-)

@tranquilsea I think you failed to answer my question. I grew up with and know many Muslims. None wore burqas and neither did their parents. A few people I knew wore hijab’s. All of them were wonderful and assimilated well, the generation who came here and their children. My Arab and Iranian friends are just as American as I am. But, I don’t personally know anyone who came here who wears a burqa. I do know one woman, her mother-in-law was basically always covered head to toe, but was ok showing her face, but she was visting, she was not the person who had moved to the United States. And, twice in my life I came across someone who did have on a burqa. Once when I was working in Raleigh, and the women seemed very restricted and the husband was an asshole. Another time the woman was very young, and seemed very withdrawn, saying nothing. But, this is only two instances, so obviously this is limited experience.

And, I love my melting pot of a country also. I am second and third generation American, my husband became a citizen 10 years ago, he was born and raised in Mexico, I have an x brother-in-law from Iatly, another brother-in-law from Scotland. I grew up outside of DC and NYC, in very diverse communities. Diversity to me is America. I admit that anything abusive to me or particularly restricts women I find upsetting. So, I am not necessarily talking about the burqa here, if a woman chooses to wear it, I htink she should be allowed, except I am really not happy with the security factor, I like to be able to see someone face. But, I am not holding judgment on the custom, I do hold judgement on beating your wife or daughter or worse because she did something to disgrace the family. Of course that is a wild extreme example, but people like that should not come to western culture. I love being around people with different traditions, religions, and languages, but the law of the land kind of trumps all. You cannot claim religious freedom if it hurts other people.

@JLeslie I tried to answer your question but I really can’t because this is a new“ish” thing. Only time will tell. And I’m talking 30 odd years down the road.

I don’t like women being restricted or abused either…in any form. I don’t know how you could ever screen for spousal abuse though. I don’t think spousal abuse is limited to burka wearing women. I live in a province that has the highest rate of spousal abuse and we have some of the fewest immigrants.

I don’t see how burkas hurt other people though.

@tranquilsea I don’t think a burqa itself hurts others, I was talking about other issues that have come up with the ultra religious Muslims migrating into European countries, I kind of mixed the too, not that I thnk they always come hand in hand, and off course there are plenty of abusive people who are not Muslim.

There was once a queston on fluther by a schoolteacher in Sweden who was having some trouble, because some compulsary requirements of the public school system were not acceptable to Muslim families, but there is supposed to be no exception. When I think of things like this it reminds me of the argument I give for why children in America should learn proper English. Because if they don’t speak English, well, they will be limited in where and what they can do in America. It their religion restricts them from participating and learning they will be at a disadvantage, they won’t be able to assimilate fully. If that is what they want, then that is fine I guess, but they can’t complain then. They can’t expect to be accomodated or given a special exception in a way that burdens others.

@JLeslie I can understand the angst when thinking about these issues. I just think that a top down approach is going to cause more harm than good. It is too “us against them”. As these women live and work in America or Canada then I would hope that their understanding of their rights are broadened to the point where they would shed it if they really wanted to.

@tranquilsea I don’t feel any angst, interesting that I cannot really communicate in words how understanding and empathetic I actually am. Look, my mother-in-law never learned English, she has lived in the US for over 12 years, and I am fine with it. I don’t feel like everyone has to become American when they move to America, however you define American. I am not against anyone, it is more I am giving advice (not to you) that the new country is not going to necessarily just accept you as you are. You need to conform to some extent to be able to participate in all a country has to offer. If they want to live in separate communities within the country, then that is what they will be separate.

@JLeslie Gotcha! I have also seen immigrant women who don’t work outside the house and who never learn English. They are very isolated and that is very sad.

Oh and the angst comment wasn’t aimed at you it was aimed at the reaction in Europe (and Quebec here).

@dpworkin @janbb no matter what the garb, you are not allowed in a government building with a mask, not even on halloween.

@Ron_C What the fuck does that have to do with the price of potatoes? I’ve been answering every single one of your posts, and I have yet to see a meaningful refutation. You’ve got nothing.

@JLeslie and many others here. There are probably a long list of “customs” that deserve to be wiped out. KKK robes and Burqa especially. If an adult woman becomes a Muslim and decided to get the “whole Muslim experience” by wearing a burqa, fine, as long as the proves her identity at airport security. After all more than one terrorist has tried to elude authorities buy wearing a burqa.

I draw the line with forcing and brainwashing young teens into the captivity of the burqa. I have seen interviews of women that choose to wear them but they do it because the fear the men around them.

Any action that is taken because of real fear or threats is a form of slavery. We try to cure obsessive-compulsive, curing women of the compulsion to wear a burqa is a form of mental therapy. There is no reason anyone, man or woman, should fear walking in public in disguise.

In fact the more I think about it and read the capitulation to primitive religious superstition by reasonable people, the more I favor the law. There is such a thing as being too politically correct. This seem more like a mental health issue than a civil liberties issue.

I would like to thank you all, your arguments have taken me from the position where I could almost accept this as a cultural issue to the understanding that this is a disease that needs to be wiped out.

@Ron_C Not sure why you directed that at me, I agree with you pretty much. I want women to have choice, I draw the line at the security issue, I think all children in a new country should be exposed to the culture of the new country, I brought up that we do not allow people to wear white hoods, I am in favor of the law in public areas, or were you agreeing with me?

Do you draw the line at forcing 13-year-old Jews to read in public from the Torah while wearing prayer shawls and special caps? Who are you to be drawing lines?

@dpworkin GA!

@JLeslie you were just the last in a line that seemed to think that it was a cultural issue, no offense meant.

@dpworkin that is their bar mitzvah and its a party celebrating their coming into man-hood. I think that the reformed Jews have a similar ceremony for girls.

I don’t care,it is similar to first communion ceremonies in the Catholic church.

All of that is voluntary, they are encouraged to do it and there is no lasting mental harm. In fact, it helps them learn another language which improves the mind.

There is no comparison between those rituals and the mental harm done with the burqa.

This is the type of argument people make when they want to redirect the discussion.

You haven’t proven mental harm, you have merely claimed it. Let’s see some proof. One citation of one peer-approved study by a neutral party showing Burqa Harm, and then I will shut up.

@dpworkin what do you call it when a girl is too afraid to be seen in public without a disguise. Are you serious, sounds like a wasted research program to me. Like they said in the preamble to the constitution “We hold these truths to be self evident….”

Which girl? You interviewed her? Or it’s just “evident” to you, from your Western, Christianized point of view? Or is it a result of all the years you have spent in Islamic countries observing the fear first hand? As I said a while ago, you’ve got nothing, and I’m done engaging your silliness.

@dpworkin
I’ve worked in Muslim countries. What I see is a group of people that are naturally hospitable and friendly stirred up by a silly religion to profit their leaders.

I think the religious right in this country is pretty fuckin’ silly, and pretty dangerous, too, but I don’t get to make the rules for them, and thank God, you don’t get to make the rules for anyone except those in your poor, beleaguered family.

@dpworkin wouldn’t it be a duty of the state to protect your family from a drug cartel that moved into your neighborhood? Drug cartel, fundamentalist religious group——same thing to me.

So let’s round up some evangelicals.

@dpworkin you can’t round up the evangelicals, they are the supporters of the corporate elite, therefore a protected group.—-silly!

Not that I am for a burqa ban, but just how much of its popularity is because of the ability to conceal a suicide bomb inside a burqa? Suicide bombing by females has become increasingly a method of choice because most people find women less threatening.

You can see from my comments above that I feel such a ban impinges on a woman’s civil liberties and may cause her great discomfort. I feel that the rights of women [as perceived by westerners] has little to do with the ban.

@anartist you are right much of the support for the ban likely stems from distrust of the immigrant population. My support is from the father’s point of view.

When one of my daughters was in the army she met and dated a guy that was Muslim of Arab descent. He wined and dined her, bought her expensive jewelery and was generally charming. I was a little leery of him but my daughter was a grown up and I trusted her opinions. The guy suddenly dropped her and married a woman from his parent’s country.
My daughter was, of course, upset but got over it. A few months later he (still married) called my daughter and asked her to spend the weekend with her. She refused. He called our house asking for my daughter’s new phone number, and I was delighted to give him a piece of my mind especially for trying to treat my daughter like a mistress. He didn’t understand the problem, I guess that was his culture even though he was born in the U.S.

That’s my problem with the burqa. Men whose wife or daughters wear that garment signify that they don’t value or respect women except as property and as a womb to breed his sons. I think it is disgusting, degrading, barbaric, and the people that support the practice are beneath contempt.

That is how I feel about it.

@Ron_C I understand and agree with you personally and am glad your daughter had you to defend her interests and decency—I was responding more to the idea of a countrywide ban, that it would be more pragmatic than socially conscious

@anartist I don’t really think I defended my daughter excerpt that we helped her to be independent, the fact that she was also a army Sargent didn’t hurt either. What I really wanted to do is meet him personally and smack the shit out of him.

I can’t be pragmatic about a group of men taking advantage of their female relatives and preventing them from rising to their full potential.

@Ron_C I assume he disappeared into the night and never bothered her again, so you never got the opportunity.

@anartist you’re right, I guess he’s cheating on his wife with someother poor sucker.
It just the same thing those Saudi princes do when they’re out of their country.

Veils/headscarfes to cover hair are fine if women want to wear them. But a veil is not required to prevent women from being looked at as a sex object as many Muslims would argue, because this is the problem of ignorant men – and foolish men should not be the reason for women to turn into faceless ghosts whenever they are in public. If anyone has to change it’s the men, not the women. When I look at women I see human beings, not sex objects. Good parenting is required to raise boys so that they become mature men. When I look at a beautiful women I see beauty. When women look at attractive men, they see beauty too. No big deal.

Dehumanizing people by taking their faces away is very wrong in my opinion. Facial expressions are a form of nonverbal communication. They are a primary means of conveying social information among humans. There are seven universally recognized emotions shown through facial expressions: fear, anger, surprise, contempt, disgust, happiness, and sadness. Regardless of culture, these expressions are the same.

Face perception is the process by which the brain and mind understand and interpret the human face. Mirror neurons help humans understand goals and intentions of other humans and many researchers argue that the mirror neuron system is involved in empathy. The human face’s proportions and expressions are important to identify origin, emotional tendencies, health qualities, and some social information. From birth, faces are important in the individual’s social interaction. Face perceptions are very complex as the face expressions involve vast involvement of areas in the brain. Sometimes damaged parts of the brain can cause specific impairments in understanding faces or prosopagnosia (Source: Wikipedia).

As I said there’s no problem for women wearing a headscarf either as a symbol for religion or to keep the head warm in winter. There is a problem with face veils and moderate Muslim women should come up with creative strategies to make this unfortunate tradition disappear. Face-hiding garments are wrong except when walking to the south pole or riding a motorcycle at high speeds.

Women should participate in public life, show their faces and have a significant influence in society. Showing their faces in private is not enough. Faces is what makes us human. As social creatures we rely on face perception. Therefore taking faces away is a way of dehumanizing people. To me a Burqa symbolizes a mobile prison. Not even the eyes are visible through the bars of the women’s tiny prison windows.

In Western countries we got dress codes too. In a city it’s not appropriate to run around naked and it’s also not appropriate to run around fully cloaked. This has little to do with religion. It’s a matter of culture and dress code. When Western women travel to Iran, for example as journalists, they respect the local dress code which means wearing a headscarf. This is okay. We should respect that. But we also want some respect when it comes to our culture and our dress codes in Western countries.

So the goals are pro face-showing societies and pro women’s rights. It is NOT about a prejudice against Islam.

Excellant @mattbrowne ! I’s give you extra credit if I could. I’m sure so cleric will condemn you and some liberal call it totally politically incorrect to suggest the proble is caused by men that were not properly raised.

I fight islamophobia with the power of my words and always point out that being opposed to face veils does not mean being against Islam.

The American people and also the European people are not the enemy of Islam. The greatest enemy of Islam are actually radical Muslims who are using verbal or physical violence and trying to control every minute of other people’s lives. Many radical Muslim men force women to wear burqas and chadors and niqabs against their will. This also happens in Europe and America. If women chose to wear these face-hiding garments they still show disrespect for our very human nature and also Western dress codes.

@mattbrowne I concur.

@mattbrowne I agree with you. Of course I am also a westerner.

Many women in Muslim society may very well feel oppressed in a society where only men have the freedom to actively engage the world around them, while they must go through or defer to the husband or father or son or male cousin in all things.

However, some women do buy into this and would feel naked without the burqa. Is it fair to deprive them of what they want and need just because you think their views are benighted?

Also, not that it matters, underneath many of those burqas are French designer dresses. How quickly and easily the burqas may be shed depends on the particular individuals and subcultures. In some instances, the burqas are pitched when the plane leaves Saudi airspace.

@anartist women in societies awash in paternalistic philosophy certainly buy into the system because it is all they know. What’s the point of moving to a new country if you are kept a slave to the old ways? Sure they are uncomfortable with freedom, some American slaves stayed with their masters because it was all that they knew.

I say free the slaves and help them learn the habits of freedom.

@Ron_C you presume too much.

@anartist not presumption, observation and history.

@Ron_C History has traceable antecedents. You have never once offered a scholarly citation for any of your bizarre ideas.

@dpworkin I am not a scholar of women’s rights in Islam. I’m just a father whose daughter has a near miss with Muslim misogyny and a world traveler that has been in Muslim dominated countries.

In the Muslim countries I’ve visited, there were various adherents of Islam. The majority were not much different than any of us, The more fervent, the more misogynistic, the more the women disappeared into the background.
The items stated above are my opinion and observation.

@anartist – Women who buy into this and feel naked without the burqa are victims of their horrible upbringing and a good dose of brainwashing about an alleged true form of Islam. The burqa is a regional cultural tradition, not a religious one. There are no burqas in Turkey or Indonesia for example. Yes, slaves should be freed and we should help them learn the habits of freedom.

Streakers feel constrained having to wear clothes on public sidewalks. But communities are always about good compromises. Otherwise people would have to become Robinson Crusoe and live on an island and do whatever they please. There are not enough islands for all of us though, so 6.8 billion people have to get along somehow.

Married women here in the US are forced to wear barbaric rings of gold on a particular finger to symbolize their enslavement unto death. How will we liberate them from this barbarism? Forbid the rings? One would hope an enlightened community would see to that right away.

Can’t any of you admit that your reactions are ethnocentric? Who gave you the right to pass judgment on another culture?

“Married women here in the US are forced to wear barbaric rings of gold on a particular finger to symbolize their enslavement unto death.” Another specious argument. More than likely the guy is the one “forced” to wear his ring. It interferes with his bar hopping with his buddies.

Again, women here wear their rings, more as a way of saying “I’ve got mine” than by tradition and certainly no force is involved. In fact, as a nurse, my wife does not wear her ring at work, mine’s lost.

As usual, you ignored the important part of my question.

@dpworkin o.k. I thought since the supporting argument was invalid it cancelled the rest.

I admit part of my reaction is based on a modern set of ethics. I object to burqas the same way I object to female circumcision and animal sacrifice. The only need for either is based on ancient superstition with which the human race is better without.

Aztecs aren’t allowed to cut out people’s hearts any more. Should we all that practice to be reintroduced because it’s just the culture of some south Americans?

@dpworkin – Look at what science has to say in particular the role of face perception in the human brain. If the majority of Afghan voters elect parties that support burqas and faceless women in public, I have to respect the decision of the voters while I would still point out my concerns hoping that future voters change their minds. But we were talking about European or American voters and reasonable dress codes in our countries and respect for our cultural traditions.

@Ron_C That Aztec argument is supposed to be valid?

@dpworkin of course it wasn’t a valid comparison. I used it to point out the fallacy of yours. No insult meant, but I cannot, in good conscience agree with you on this matter.

I’m finding it slightly amusing that the most vocal segment of this discussion are the men.

@tranquilsea why not. Women that are subject to this abuse are not likely to have access to a computer especially at a free-wheeling site like this. Women that aren’t probably don’t care much and realize that is is men that caused the problem and men should deal with it.

Men that benefit by subjugating women support the practice and are probably too afraid of women to admit any guilt. The other guys argue against the practice because the finally understand that women should have free well and not be subjugated anymore than men should be.

Then there is the final group of guys that argue for letting the immigrants keep the practice because first it doesn’t affect most westerns, and secondly, they just like to argue.

Hence few women step into this quagmire.

@dpworkin I’ll take a little gold band and the matching diamond any day over walking around in a hot, heavy tent.. And in many modern western marriages, the man also wears his gold ring of “enslavement”

This article appeared in The Weekend Australian Magazine, a weekend magazine supplement to one of the more conservative and respected newspapers of the country. I know this is an old question, but I found this relevant and interesting. Goes to show that not all who wear the veil are pure and innocent and the cry of racism can be abused as well.

ID, please

The story recently caused a minor flurry in both the old and new media. A Muslim woman wearing a niqab – an Islamic veil that covers the entire face except for the eyes – accused a Sydney police officer of trying to remove it during a breathalyser stop.

The woman made numerous other complaints in a sworn statutory declaration, and her case was taken up by former Guantanamo Bay detainee Mamdouh Habib, who advised her take her story to the media, the Anti-Discrimination Board and the police force itself, demanding an apology. Various Muslim sites were buzzing the the tale of how a “sister” had been the victim of racism.

The policeman in question denied he had treated the woman disrespectfully, let alone touched her veil, and when senior officers checked the in-car video they saw no evidence that he had done either. The woman has since been charged with making a false statement and is due to appear in the courts next month.

But the incident raises a broader question: how can a police officer be expected to identify a driver if their face is entirely covered and they refuse to remove the veil? Even in a conservative muslim country such as Bahrain lawmakers are pushing to amend traffic laws to grant male traffic officers the right to ask women to lift the veil and reveal their faces.

In Australia, road authorities have introduced procedures for dealing with Muslim sensitivities on license photos. In all states the face must be fully visible, from the bottom of the chin to the top of the forehead, but a Muslim woman can request that the photograph be taken in private by another female, and after hours if necessary; she does not have to remove her veil completely , but simply pull it back. The system is necessary for facial recognition systems being phased in by Victorian, NSW and Queensland authorities.

Perhaps the Sydney woman who was so quick to make claims of racism should take solace from the fact that in the country where her niqab is standard – Saudi Arabia – she would be forbidden to drive.

@rooeytoo – Good story. Underscores how wrong face veils are.

@rooeytoo I’ll second Matt’s approval. I believe that all religions are granted too much respect.