What is your opinion on the evolution of man?

I think you have a very rudimentary understanding of evolution.

Just being honest.

The theory of evolution does not say monkeys turned into man. You need to do a lot more reading about how it really does work before you form an opinion on it.

Be gentle Fyrius she is a youngling. Don’t eat her. Please.

I am a Christian too. I do not believe I came from a monkey. However I do believe if I had 2 children and one of the children had genetic traits that made him more likely to survive, and the other child had traits that made him less likely to survive, then the one with genes suited for our environment and situation would most likely be the child who successfully lives to pass on his genes to a future generation. The fact that genes occasionally mutate is undeniable. The fact some genetic qualities improve ones chances of surviving to reproduce and others don’t is undeniable. However I don’t think I am a hairless chimp. Then again I am crazy and look like a cheetah and I am waiting for a dog in a suit to answer. Maybe I should take my meds and you shouldn’t listen to me.

As a curiosity, do you also have an opinion on string theory?
I don’t know much about physics, but in my opinion, all those educated professionals are just being stupid. If all existence is made of strings, then how come there are also guitars? ~

In somewhat more seriousness, I agree with @YARNLADY. Don’t make up your mind about complex scientific issues before you have at least a basic understanding of what it is you’re accepting or rejecting, and preferably not even before you also understand all the advanced stuff. In this case, evolution does not mean what you think it means.
Here’s a clue: If this model couldn’t make sense of a fact as obvious as the continued existence of monkeys, then who in their right mind would have even come up with it in the first place?

Common descent of all life is a historical fact, with about as much evidence to back it up as the French revolution or the Holocaust. There’s the fossil record of past developments, there are genetic similarities that imply development, and there are physiological similarities that imply development, and they all independently show the exact same evolutionary family tree. There’s no more need for doubt. If you don’t believe me, ask any biologist. WIth a valid degree.
There are also plenty of Christians who see no need to deny evolution. MattBrowne is one. So is the Pope.

@escapedone7
I’m trying.

We didn’t evolve from monkeys. We evolved with the other primates from some distant ancestor. Some lines went extinct, others thrived. I make no claim to any kind of expertise in this area. The business about evolutionists claiming that humans evolving from monkeys is pure fundamentalist religious propaganda, been going on since the Scopes trial in the 20s.

Everyone can have an opinion. But, science is science.

It’s a slow process. You need to read a little (a lot) more about evolution. All life is constantly evolving It takes many generations for a trait to develop and become widespread. In our relatively short lifetimes we can see it in other animals with life spans much shorter than ours. Bacteria and viruses are constantly changing and upping their game to beat our drugs. Many of the meds we took 50 years ago are now ineffective because a few of them had a trait that helped them survive the drug. They reproduced and soon that trait is widespread.
H1N1, Bird Flu, SARS, infections, and other diseases have changed in your lifetime. Thankfully medical science has a pretty good understanding of evolution and continues to improve the drugs we take to combat them.
There is clear evidence that other small animals have evolved in our lifetime too. Genetic variation happens.
We are still evolving. As we spend more and more time on the internet and meet our future mates here, maybe the ones with the best internet connections will be the next generation.

yawn Search on this site and you’ll find that this has been asked many times.

Welcome to the internet outside of facebook. People think things here.

I agree with you that humans did not suddenly evolve from monkeys. As you mention, monkeys are still around.
Luckily, nobody who believes in evolution believes in that idea. Monkeys and humans are seen effectively as cousins. We have a common ancestor.

Evolution diversifies. It is not linear.

In all honesty, you should view this video. It will fill a lot of holes in your understanding of evolution. If you want to be able to argue why it’s wrong, you should really learn about the beliefs of it.
I was going to explain some things, but honestly, that guy in the video explains it more simply than I can, and with graphics.

For the record, I do believe in evolution. If you have questions about specific bits surrounding evolution, and they’re not answered in that video, I’d love to try to answer them. But I don’t have all of the answers.

@Sarcasm You don’t have all the answers? I’m so disappointed, I keep hoping someone has all the answers.

I made the same typo the other day, it’s “weird”, not “wierd” personally now I feel weird. As far as your question goes, I love the way you write. I like what that guy Bill Maher says, something like, “I just don’t know”. I feel like I do know some things though. I believe a little in past lives, and that possibly we were created to evolve, if we were created at all. I mean, if I was going to make a world, and populate it with something, I would try and make something cool. And something that evolves would be cooler. I was raised in a strict religious house, and I broke away from that, and explored many beliefs, even pursued becoming a theologian at one point. As of right now, I’m too stoked to worry too much about this kind of thinking. It seems like there is a large group of people telling me that I need to have faith in order to believe in god. But it’s just not true, god is easy to believe in, just look at the mathematics in nature. The geometry in a leaf. I have had many a spiritual experience that I would have never thought possible, and I’m not just talking about lsd. I read somewhere recently that the world is supported on the backs of a handful of great men. Why are some men greater than others, closer to god, maybe. I know when I was arrested for jaywalking and I was sitting on the curb in cuffs, that I felt the cops were a power greater than myself, and it sucked.

There is a lot of this foolishness going around. The statement could also be, “since we all evolved from bacteria, why is there still bacteria around”. Creationists also say that evolution is about as likely as a tornado blowing through a junkyard resulting in a 747.

That shows that they have no understanding of evolution or the engine of natural selection.

Creationists seem to believe that anything that they don’t understand must have been created by god. I guess that is why they studied theology rather than science, after-all, if you have god, why would you need science?

That Darwin fella, yeah i’m on his side.

While we’re at it, let’s not believe the earth is round, either. ;-)

Sorry for the “snark” above, but with due respect to those who believe otherwise, I just can’t comprehend how, in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence, any religion can preach against evolution, or how anyone, religious or not, can doubt it.

@Austinlad : I’ll go with the flat thing any day. Makes it easier to mow my lawn! ;-)

If the young don’t retain open minds about such scientifically probable yet hotly debated facts as evolution and global warming, etc., what future does the world have?

@Austinlad

Some people just aren’t rational .

I’m starting a new religion, it’s based on a cat with a rocket strapped to it’s back that flies through outer space. Anyone want to join?

@truecomedian Sign me up for one membership. Makes as much sense as anything else.

The notion that human beings evolved “from monkeys” is absurd. We do share common ancestors with monkeys, but then again we share common ancestors with mushrooms and viruses as well. As far as why monkeys are still around…. imagine with me this: You have a group of baboon-like animals in a given area. Some of these animals are separated from the rest by an event – like volcanism, earthquake, territorial disputes, etc. As it turns out, the new habitat is significantly different than the original and over time, (or even immediately) the two groups are no longer interbreeding. The differences in habitat place different selection pressures on the displaced animals. For example, the new habitat might not have as much vegetation or the vegetation is harder to get to from the ground… things like that. As a result, natural selection will favor different traits in the displaced group. All the while, new groups might split from the original displaced group and “set up shop” in other areas with different selection pressures. And here’s the important point as regards your question. The original group can continue to live happily and successfully in the original area without any selection pressure to change. The other groups, over long periods of time, will be so different genetically from the original group that they no longer can interbreed. This is a simplistic explanation, and there is still much debate on the mechanisms involved, but in a nutshell this is why the original group (morphologically speaking) of baboon-like animals can be contemporaries of vastly different animals that once, were part of the original group of animals

@saraSKELLINGTON, with all due respect, your question makes it clear that you don’t actually understand how evolution works.

1. Humans didn’t evolve from monkeys. We evolved from apes. Our closest relative is the chimpanzee (an ape). This means that if you trace our ancestors back, and trace modern chimps’ ancestors back, eventually you’ll find a “common ancestor.”

This shouldn’t be hard to believe, as chimpanzees are very similar to humans. They use tools. They have distinct cultures. They have extremely complex social relationships. They are altruistic, and they go to war with each other. They have different vocalizations that represent different things. Also, 95–99% of our genetic material is identical to that of a chimpanzee.

2. You asked why there are still monkeys if humans evolved from monkeys. This simply isn’t how evolution works. You seem to believe that evolution is a “ladder,” where each species evolves into a “superior” one and the old one disappears. In fact, evolution works more like a “bush.” Old species do not disappear when new species evolve.

Why are there still monkeys? Because monkeys are still adapted to their environments—mainly tropical rain forests. Similarly, there are still fish in the water. Amphibians (frogs, toads, salamanders) evolved from fish to live on land, but why would that mean fish would disappear?

3. I think you need to re-examine why you believe what the Bible says. You are talking about the book of Genesis, right? Genesis also says the sky is a solid dome that holds up an ocean. It says the sun was created after the earth, and that the sun, moon, planets and stars are all “set” in the dome of the sky. Later, God opens up the “windows” in the sky to let down the floodwaters.

Genesis is Mesopotamian mythology. There are Babylonian and Sumerian myths that say the same thing that are older than the Bible. Many Babylonian myths describe how sky gods made humans from clay. In fact, much of the Bible’s flood story—right down to the details about the ark and letting out birds—is lifted from an older Akkadian myth called the Epic of Atrahasis.

You should ask yourself why you trust ancient Mesopotamian mythology more than modern science.

Technically, apes are phylogenetically speaking monkeys, so you can say humans evolved from monkeys, or that we are monkeys, etc. It’s just confusing, and when creationists say this they typically do not know wtf they’re talking about because lord knows they don’t understand phylogeny. Case in point.

@YARNLADY Ooh, pick me!

I think this matter will never end no matter how many fact have been said,the issue of Creationism VS Evolutionarism will be won by people from Evolutionarism side since there are lots of scientific proof rather than just ‘believe/fantasy/perception/manipulation’ in Creationism,and since Creationists fundamentally adopt ‘faith’ in their belief,faith will eliminate anything that is against faith no matter how rational proof.

Here’s something else I don’t understand.

Christians dismiss evolution as “stupid” and “weird,” claiming that it’s too difficult to believe that humans evolved from apes.

And yet Christians have no trouble believing that a cosmic Jewish zombie, who is his own father, had himself killed as a sacrifice—to himself—so that he could prevent his father/himself from punishing humans for disobeying the laws that he gave them (laws that mysteriously resemble ancient Babylonian laws), which were impossible for humans to follow in the first place, because all humans are possessed by an invisible evil force that we inherited from our mythical ancestor, because he ate a magical fruit at the behest of a talking snake.

@Adirondackwannabe
Alright you’re in. Now there’s this cat that can fly anywhere, that’s about it. It’s crazy, everybody’s right, if everybody’s wrong. It all boils down to what your born into. Religion is for the poor, blind, or scared. The people in power know this. If you had everythinig you wanted, why would you need to have faith in anything.

@Qingu
That’s not so hard to explain. They’re just biased.

Man has evolved.

…............................

@truecomedian OK, I have a new faith. Nothing like a cat with a rocket strapped to his a**.
@Fyrius Care to join our new order? We can strap a rocket to your a** and you can be another radical group shouting Death to Cats.

@Adirondackwannabe
No thanks, in a thread like this I’d rather not join in on off-topic religion bashing.

He spelled it a**

How did a thread about evolution turn into joking about abusing animals?

Maybe it’s your poseable thumbs that’s the problem. They make it hard to read.

My opinion on the evolution of man is that I’m all for it.

@nikipedia : Good point. Maybe they’ll even catch up to us one day! ;-)

I gave MY opinion on it and you know what that is how I feel.You can say its wrong, you can say its right, do I care? No. I asked this question becasue I wanted to see what others think. And for those of you who say I stated my question wrong. Who cares? no one. Its how I feel. You know what I mean when I say monkeys turned into man. Im not going into every little freaking detail. Geeeeze lighten up people.

I feel that the moon is made of green cheese.

That’s just my opinion. You think it’s made out of rock? Who cares! I’m not interested in facts, and I’m certainly not interested in defending my opinion.

I just want to shout my opinion, get a reaction, and then ignore everything anyone else says!

@saraSKELLINGTON When people question one’s premises, they are stating their opinion because they believe they’re unable to answer your question without first explaining some facts. This isn’t about whether you like blue toenail polish or religious tattoos – this is about scientific occurences that happen and before you can make claims, you must learn what others before have claimed and proven. As to why we care whether your question is wrongfully stated…because Fluther is a website where users care for intelligent questions, well-worded answers and challenging topics and the only people that needs to ‘lighten up’ (geez, can you have any more cliche comebacks) is you and that monkey that turned into a man.

@saraSKELLINGTON The problem is that you grossly misrepresented evolution. That leads people to believe that you don’t even understand what it is.
It’s like me saying “Christianity can’t be right. I’ve never been to heaven, therefore it can’t exist!” you know that’s a complete misunderstanding of Christianity. And you would be very right to correct me on it.

You can’t call an entire group of people wrong and then bury your head when they present a correction to you.

Usually people ask for other people’s opinions because they want to consider them, and perhaps be enlightened by them. You seem to be asking for others’ opinions for no particular reason at all. Maybe just to see them, like you are taking a tour of a house which you have no intention of buying.

Maybe you want to see a fight erupt just for shits and giggles. You can watch, surrounded by the impenetrable fortress of your belief, while the knights joust with each other. Whatever. I don’t think it’s very friendly to ask a question whose answers you have no interest in other than to see them. Not friendly at all.

Wow. 2 GQs and 42 answers and NOW @saraSKELLINGTON wants this question deleted? I don’t get it.

@wundayatta you are very correct. Just to throw my two cents in…If you want an answer to a question and you have supporting comments, you better have your facts right when you push send; otherwise you will get the corrections you deserve.

Your view point @saraSKELLINGTON is based on faith, fine. You should then try to limit the people that answer by their faith. Otherwise you will get answers from people with knowledge that do not, necessarily share your faith.

If you want faith based answers you will be better served asking on a faith based web site.

@saraSKELLINGTON I recommend a book. It’s easy to read (it’s a children’s book, but one of the most concise explanations of evolution I’ve ever seen. I’ve read it several times).
http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-How-Living-Things-Came/dp/1554534305/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1281463990&sr=8-1

I’m a member of the The Flat Earth Society.

Science isn’t a matter of opinion.

You don’t understand evolution. You are incorrect. That isn’t my opinion, you’re just factually incorrect.

This user closed her account…jeez, didn’t seem that heated to me!

@JilltheTooth She is probably not used to being around people that think, or challenge her ideas, similar to what @zophu said lol.

Yeah, got that from another thread that she got into a thing with someone as well…most of it was later redacted ah, to be so young and oversensitive! sigh how I miss the passion! ;-)

I found a rocket. You may worship me.

@escapedone7 How about you just worship my rocket…..?

@Blackberry good one!

Lol! I’m just kidding, Escapedone.

I don’t think I have an opinion on evolution (of humans or anything else). It’s not exactly subjective.

Here’s a list of other topics I don’t have a subjective opinion of: gravity, the visible light spectrum, the wetness of water and the necessity of oxygen for breathing.

I have lots of opinions on gravity, most of them accompanied by scars.

I guess I should stick up for my religion, it’s just a metaphor for how some people see religion, like they’re all silly. A cat with a rocket, that’s cool. That’s all I got though. What ways does this new religion worship? Open to suggestions.

Yup. Her mind’s made up. We just confused her with the facts.

It reminds me of this hilarious poster.

@truecomedian You have taken one of the tenets of the flying spaghetti Monster and turned it into a joke, shame on you.

…...as the time comes for beating the dead horse just for the hell of it…...need to make sure that all those not willing to subscribe to atheism theories get put back in their place :)

@Buttonstc omg, sarcasm is uber cool and totally showed me her myspace…it was glorious, I tell you.

My opinion on the evolution of man is that it is freaking awesome.

@Simone

:)

@Buttonstc Quick get a rocket. This is totally like when the ewoks found C3PO !

I have not laughed this hard because of a thread in months.

Thank you.
All of you.

@saraSKELLINGTON closed her account on Fluther? Isn’t that a bit ironic when the the topic is about evolution and survival of the fittest?

Sincerely though, it is a shame that she left. She might have learned to appreciate other people’s perspectives, whether she believed them or not.

@asmonet: You’re welcome, but I think a special award belongs to @Qingu.

Open-mindedness: You’re doing it wrong.

This would be the point where you say: “Golly, I didn’t know it was such a complicated issue. I guess my ideas were a bit naive. I suppose I should reconsider, and maybe even change my mind. Thanks for telling me, now I can go find out the truth.”
Not “You’re all being stupid. I have a right to my misguided beliefs. And I’m going to run away now.”

Sigh.

hopefully this only makes her to feel alienated from Fluther and not from more sensible opinions than her own in general

@saraSKELLINGTON – I think you are very brave asking this question and coping with the flood of answers that are probably quite overwhelming. You have been exposed to a form of Christianity that is quite rare when we consider Christianity on a worldwide scale, but unfortunately quite widespread in the US and it’s not easy to develop the courage to object to certain claims made by this community. If you deeply wish to explore this subject further and find meaningful answers to your question there are two things you can do:

1) Find an educated Christian outside your community in real life and have good discussions with him or her

2) Read a book written by an educated Christian

I have a recommendation for number 2:

“Finding Darwin’s God: A Scientist’s Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution” by Kenneth Miller

It explains evolution from a scientific point of view in a language that everyone can understand. It also explores the question whether evolution and the belief in God and the practice of religion are compatible or not.

http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Darwins-God-Scientists-Evolution/dp/B003H4RDUQ/

You will learn that human beings are descendants of fish which came out of the water at some point in the distant past. You will learn why having sex is such a successful model dealing with change. Monkeys and humans are cousins. All of this doesn’t say anything about whether God exists or not or whether we want to be baptized and be part of a Christian community.

I’m a Christian and I think the wonders of evolution and the wonders of the whole universe reinforce the greatness of God. And He gave us a brain to understand all this. We all should put it to good use. You should put yours to good use too.

I don’t want this to turn into a theist-atheist discussion. We should respect @saraSKELLINGTON choice of believing in God and should help her learn about evolution. This is what the comments should be about. This thread is not about atheism. There are plenty of others which are. We can have plenty of debates there.

I just realized that the user @saraSKELLINGTON no longer exists. So we will probably have another case of giving creationists no chance to escape. She said ‘Geeeeze lighten up people’ and there are replies like

I feel that the moon is made of green cheese.

You don’t understand evolution. You are incorrect. (Lurve 7)

I found a rocket. You may worship me.

I slowly begin to understand why creationism is here to stay. I hate this say this, but I think we as a community have failed to properly communicate with @saraSKELLINGTON. Get into her mindset. Try to see the world from her perspective. Give her a chance to get out. All we offered was tough, confrontational scientific language. When people face difficult situations in relationships we use all our tactfulness. As soon as the word “God” appears somewhere in the details of a question this triggers insensitive knee-jerk overreactions. I’m sure if a person left the Amazon jungle and came in contact with civilization the first time we would be more understanding. Why not apply the same approach when a young creationist being exposed to creationist parents and creationist community comes out of the woods? I found a rocket. You may worship me. Great.

Why can’t the Fluther community do better than that ??

Because she explicitly states she had no desire to change or even explore her opinion and was basically trolling?

To what extent should we accommodate such people?

@mattbrowne
“I think you are very brave asking this question and coping with the flood of answers that are probably quite overwhelming.”
Oh, you politician.
She wasn’t being brave and she didn’t cope with the replies. You’re being overly nice to lure in the nutters again.

Now, I agree there’s been some unnecessary religion ridicule in here. We should counter nutty beliefs with reason, not with comparisons to rocket-propelled space cats.

But I for one am not remotely tactful enough to endorse blatant lies.

P.S. If you want an answer to the question why we’d treat an Amazon native with more tact than a Creationist, I think what makes the difference is that we think of Creationists as otherwise normal Western people, and therefore treat them as equals. That means holding them up to the standards of a mentally healthy adult.

@mattbrowne You’re incorrect – there were PLENTY of relevant and correct answers before the funny ones began that she CHOSE to disregard. I am so sick of having to have the burden of educating the ignorant simply because we’re ‘better than that’ or whatever – at what point can I get a break in the day and say ‘now, that’s just more bullshit’, so to speak, and not have to be responsible for whatever goes down and for having to not use insults when insults are thrown at me…this doesn’t apply to just this q but to many others..you’ll have ignorant people saying ignorant stuff and then someone will always come in and say (if it’s not the ignorant people themselves) that ‘this was an educational opportunity’ and we missed it – eff that noise.

@mattbrowne : I found a lot of the discussion to be relevent, kind and on point before she got upset. This user was involved in another thread and reacted as immaturely to some aspects of that as well,. When things didn’t go her way here she promptly tried to have the question deleted then quit altogether. Very frustrating for the large number of people here trying to answer her question honestly.

I didn’t start joking around until the user closed her account and I believed her to be no longer here. I did give her an honest answer while she was still here.

I’m just really frustrated that somehow we can’t find a way to get people out of their creationist circles. And giving up is not a good option to me. Crocodile Dundee was able to find a way around New York City and the only world he knew was the Australian outback.

I am convinced that our approach can be optimized. We’re not doing enough to get into the creationist mindset. We still don’t fully understand how these people tick. Our language is way too confrontational.

I like @DominicX first answer. Most of the next responses are okay, but then after a while perhaps when @Austinlad chimed in, it was quite predictable where this would go. There was still no reply from her. Some people just aren’t rational, was one of the next comments. Put yourself into her shoes and try to feel what it must be like to be when she reads these kind of comments: So many people think I’m completely stupid, might be one reaction. Will she open up? I doubt it.

It gets worse. There comes the cat with a rocket strapped to its back. Wow. She has still not replied. I like @Qingu‘s first answer. But this is followed by the cosmic Jewish zombie provoking anger and a whole set of strong negative emotions in creationists. What happens? They will reject evolution not because it isn’t true, but because they don’t have the personality or maturity to be able to agree with people who harshly insult or mock them. The small chance that this believer will open up gets destroyed. The “debate” becomes a fight. And keep in mind the young woman has still not said anything. She keeps reading these comments, adrenaline pumping through her system.

I won’t go as far as to say that some people with the IQ of a rocket scientist have got the EQ of a cynomolgus monkey, but well, EQ might be something worth looking into.

So I wonder, are we as a Fluther community capable of self criticism? How we deal with difficult people?

Shouldn’t we debate how we deal with next question asked by a novice Flutherite who seems to be a creationist? Use a more gentle initial approach until the creationist writes his or first response. Or should we simply give up and stick with out knee-jerk reaction right from the beginning? I mean the lurve is great. Look at these numbers above. Creationist bashing is a lucrative business at least from a lurve point of view. After all, there’s the 162nd Ferengi Rule of Acquisition: Even in the worst of times someone turns a profit.

@mattbrowne “We’re not doing enough to get into the creationist mindset. We still don’t fully understand how these people tick. Our language is way too confrontational.” – are we supposed to get into their mindset instead of vice versa? And I don’t see how even in your own paternalistic response, you’re not treating them as ‘the other’.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Yes, we are supposed to get into their mindset. Because we can do this. They can’t.

@mattbrowne Seriously? That’s what you think of creationists?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – It’s very tough to see the world through the eyes of other people and feel what they feel, think the way they think. Understand their mindset.

@mattbrowne Agreed, but that’s neither here nor there.

Isn’t the ability to see things through the eyes of others one of our greater gifts?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Do we have an alternative? Can we convince a creationist to change his or her mind? What would be our strategy? Can we develop some strategy without understanding their mindset? This might be a weird example, but can we catch a terrorist without understanding the mindset of the terrorist? Or the serial killer? Most creationists are good people, so please don’t misinterpret my example.

@mattbrowne I’m not in the business of changing creationists’ mind – the facts are presented, it’s up to everyone to make up their own opinions. But I am put off by the way you off handedly discuss them like they’re a species you don’t get.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – I’m an idealist. And it’s my intention to treat them as real human beings, with strengths and weaknesses, with aspirations and ambitions, experiencing joy and sorrow. When I wrote my first answer to @saraSKELLINGTON this is what I did. I’m not the one treating her as if she were a different species. Some of them are trapped in their communities. Why not give them a chance to get out if they want to? But we must find a better way that allows them to do this. Strapping rockets on the back of cats won’t do the job in my opinion. That’s all. I gotta run now. Will be back tomorrow morning.

darn

@mattbrowne
“And keep in mind the young woman has still not said anything. She keeps reading these comments, adrenaline pumping through her system.”
This is where your speculated account of @saraSKELLINGTON‘s mind loses me. Seriously, you interpret this as the posts of someone with nerves of steel who patiently lets her opponents finish before saying anything back?
I’d sooner say this is the posting pattern of someone who opens a thread and then leaves it for a while, then comes back to find an overwhelming number of replies she doesn’t have the patience to read and reply to one at a time, so she skims through a few of them to get a general impression and then leaves one short post about all of it. Notice how it addresses everyone in one go and doesn’t reply to any particular points raised by specific people.

Ya’ll haven’t seen her myspace – I think it would clear up any remaining questions.

Sadly all of this speculation of how to communicate with creationist is moot because saraSKELLINGTON has cancelled her account and I assume that I am part of the crowd that drove her away. Maybe we need some sort of evangelical organization that presents the science of evolution in a way that is non-confrontational. I know that when a person comes out strongly in favor of creationism, it pushes my hot buttons. Maybe Matt is right we need to take a more compassionate approach to help them rather than driving them away.

If you ask a question that you know is going to generate some strong emotions you have to expect some heat coming back at you. The fact that she said I’m packing up and leaving indicates a lack of maturity and a high level of intolerance.

@Adirondackwannabe Some background information: She is 18 years old, lives with her mother and grandmother, and just moved from a trailer home into one where she is afraid when left alone.

Based upon this thread and some others that she created and responded to, I’d agree that, yes, she has some growing up to do. And so do I for that matter, even at age 47.

@Fyrius – There can be hundreds of reasons why she didn’t reply sooner. There can be hundreds of reasons why she didn’t reply to all of the posts on an individual basis. I’m pretty sure some of it was simply too complicated. Maybe the ridicule made her so mad that she couldn’t even focus to come up with good replies. People are different. You are an intellectual, my friend. You have never lived in a trailer. Let’s not assume that everyone feels and thinks the way you do or I do.

I think the problem with what went wrong in this thread is that we seem to be a crowd culture. It happens in real life. And it can happen on Fluther. One crowd against one young woman who is confused about the relationship of humans and monkeys. At some point, and this sometimes happens, when a creationist really becomes aggressive, it’s okay to be more direct and be clear that such behavior is not acceptable. But Sara never did this.

I didn’t check her Myspace page. I was trying to analyze this thread based on what she wrote in the detail section of her question and what happened afterwards before her first reply and also after her reply. Lack of maturity doesn’t go away by novice users deleting their accounts soon after they join. Yes, she has some growing up to do. And I fear Sara won’t find a way to become more mature on Myspace or in her creationist community. She might have had a small chance on Fluther.

Meh. I still think I have enough experience with people like her to be able to make educated guesses about her motives with acceptable probabilities. Even if it’s not an exact science.

Fluther does seem to be a “crowd culture”. Or in other words, a community. People always cluster together, that happens everywhere, it’s a fact of human social psychology.
There are anonymous internet communities known for being populated by social outcasts who don’t fit in anywhere, where no one trusts anyone else and it’s literally impossible to get to know people, and even there you see group identities.

Yes, I suppose part of the problem is on our side. I don’t think that means that part is easy to solve, though. While you’re very willing to accept and forgive Sara’s shortcomings, I think you overestimate us if you think it’s a trivial matter for us to overcome ours to compensate. We too are only human.
Maybe I shouldn’t speak for everyone, but I know I for one actually am a pretty tactless person. That’s a fact. Up there I tried hard to be considerate, non-confrontational and non-condescending, and I only managed to tone the sarcasm down to a somewhat lower level. I’m not content with that, but I can only learn so fast.

Being the more forgiving one is difficult, especially if you don’t see any reason why we should be the ones to adapt while the other side can just keep spewing their bullshit. It was even more so with LiLian earlier, the Muslim girl who thought people who draw Muhammad deserve to die for hurting her feelings. Fluther was amazingly patient with her, more patient than I could have managed. And she ran away anyway, and then it was time for another Mattbrowne lecture.

I think it’s unfair for you to put all the blame on us whenever another lunatic buggers off, like we scared the fish away. Sara doesn’t have less free will than we do, and if it’s such a tragedy that she decided to take a hike, it’s no more to blame on our knee-jerk responses than on her epistemic cowardice.

@Fyrius – Thanks for your considerate reply. I never put all the blame just on us. There are plenty of people to blame, for example the very intelligent ultra-conservatives who use the creationist movement for their political purposes with all their hidden agendas. A growing creationist movement will give them more votes.

Yes, as an 18-year-old woman Sara has to take responsibility for her own life. Of course.

Yes, we are all human. I know that I have a tendency to sound like someone giving lectures. While this might be okay up to a point, I also know that sometimes it can be too much. I want to do something about it. Lifelong learning does not only include science or other subjects, it also includes trying to change one’s own behavior once we understand that it’s worth considering changing it. While we cannot change our personality traits in general, we do have the power within us to change our behavior, no matter how difficult this might seem.

I think all of us should feel responsible for the culture of Fluther. Moderators can’t do this on their own. Yes, being the more forgiving one is difficult and we have to speak out when we encounter unacceptable behavior or views like the one expressed by the Muslim girl who thought people who draw Muhammad deserve to die for hurting her feelings. Yet the only way to help her change is through dialogue. The deletion of Fluther accounts ends these kinds of dialogues. And Sara’s case is different from LiLian’s. She sent no one to hell with any of her remarks. She has got free will, but we might be able to help rediscover it.

@mattbrowne
“I want to do something about it. Lifelong learning does not only include science or other subjects, it also includes trying to change one’s own behavior once we understand that it’s worth considering changing it.”
I’m with you there, bro.

@mattbrowne, I do agree with your general goals here. And I think you rightfully point out that being too aggressive against creationists can scare them away. On the other hand, as others have pointed out, it does sound somewhat paternalistic to take the “coddling” approach.

Point being, there’s probably not any one-size-fits-all way to deal with creationists, and it probably varies a lot based on the individual.

I believe completely in evolution as its proof is a daily occurrence but most are stating correctly that man did not evolve from an ape. What I am about to say will bring lots of controversy but that is okay because it is from my own belief system. I say this from my own personal experience. No one needs to agree and I’m not trying to get anyone too. This is just another thought and opinion in the matter. I believe man was brought here from another planet and was left here to begin life and to evolve and grow as humans. I also believe that we were partially linked to this planet genetically and are about ready to evolve to a higher order.

@JustmeAman So I’ve been waiting. Sigh.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

What is the Sigh about?

@JustmeAman You say we were brought here from another planet “from my own personal experience”. Have you been abducted by aliens?

@JustmeAman
Sorry mate, but I’m going to comment on your pet theory anyway.

That explanation would mean that while all the life forms are related through evolution, humankind is an exception, and that predicts we can’t find any indication of common descent between humans and non-human primates, and mammals in general.
I’m not here to give you flak for your beliefs, but I’m just saying, I’m pretty sure that prediction is definitely not true.
I’ll refrain from listing all the evidence here, unless you want to know.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir That this evolution isn’t happening.

@Fyrius

No problem mate I totally understand where you are coming from and I know all what you call evidence. I’m not here to change anyone nor put any point across only to answer the question and maybe open a mind to all possibility. I could go on for hours explaining things and giving why I have said what I did but it would not make any difference so I will stand by my beliefs as you do yours and let it be. Predictions I do not make only live by what I experience and what I have discovered in my own life.

The panspermia hypothesis is about simple life. Extremophile bacteria might become trapped in debris that’s ejected into space after collisions. Bacteria may travel dormant for an extended amount of time before colliding randomly with other planets or intermingling with protoplanetary discs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia

People are not extremophile unless they rely on technology. The origin of people is Earth. Everything else is fiction as displayed in Battlestar Galactica for example.