Is pornography degrading to woman?

I think Sex and the City is more degrading to women.

Only if it’s done right.

I find the flippant posts above astonishing and indicative of a problem in our society.

Pornography is degrading to women. It objectifies them and their sexuality. There are several studies that show that exposure to pornography increase aggressive tendencies and de-sensitize the viewer to violence.

*After exposure to pornography in a laboratory situation where women were depicted as enjoying rape, male college students (“average Joes” pre-screened to select out “hostile” personalities) were more prone to accept commonly held conceptions lik e “a woman really wants to be raped,” and “yes means no.” These men also denied the credibility of actual rape victims by viewing them as feeling less pain than they actually experienced, and by holding them responsible for their own rapes.

* Fifty-seven percent of these males indicated some likelihood that they would commit a rape if guaranteed that they would not be caught. They also claimed that 30 percent of the women they know would enjoy being aggressively forced into sexual i ntercourse.

* With a repeated exposure period of only two weeks, the subjects found violent pornography to be less and less violent, and they were increasingly less offended by the material. Most important, contrary to the cathartic benefits which some Ordin ance opponents mention, these men’s sexual arousal did not decrease but in some cases increased.

* Finally, the researchers found that themes of violence and domination in pornography had very strong effects on adolescent boys who are beginning to form stereotypes about human sexuality, rape and violence.

Sources: Pornography and Sexual Aggression edited by Dr. Neil Malamuth and Dr. Edward Donnerstein (New York: Academic Press, 1984); Connections Between Sex and Aggre ssion by Dolf Zillman (Hillsdale, New Jersey: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, 1984); and in the work of sociologist Dr. Diana Russell (see “Pornography and Rape: a Causal Model” by Russell in Political Psychology, Vol. 9, No. 1, 1988).

Inherently? No.Two people are having sex while getting filmed, I don’t see anything degrading in that.

You could say that in porn women are degraded to mere sexual creatures, but then, aren’t the men too? The way I see it, that’s the whole point of porn. It’s not exactly portraying complex characters…

I think people who disapprove of porn, disapprove of the idea of only portraying that one side of people. And I can see their point, there is so much more to any real individual than their sexuality, but if you take it for what it is, a snapshot of the sexual side of people. That’s all it is.

And it’s not fair to say all pornography is violent. Far from it. (oh and I speak with the experience of having worked in a video rental shop that had an adult section – which actually had many amusing moments…)

I distinguish erotica from pornography. Porn is degrading in its nature – but different people will have different ideas about what falls where.

@Marina, I appreciate the information of which I was ignorant and your position. I think both of our statements are in agreement that it is degrading.

I’m not sure what your idea of a solution would be, but I view this and many other societal “ills” through (what I would call) realist lenses. Porn has been around as long as photography and film and I’m sure the majority of men and women filmed have been willing participants. (Obviously, rape or the filming of rape with a non-consenting party is criminal.)

I don’t believe that all women want to be submissive, degraded or raped, but I do know women who unsolicited have expressed that when having sex they enjoy being submissive and degraded or that they have rape fantasies. I’m not trying to refute the information you cite, and I agree that non-consensual male violence towards women is abhorrent, but I think there’s a natural and primal place in human sexuality for these roles to play themselves out.

Perhaps the societal problem is that the porn industry has seemingly distilled the breadth of human sexuality into it’s most marketable form and propagated it ad infinitum.

@kevbo First, I think it is dangerous even to go down the path regarding women who “enjoy being submissive or that have rape fantasies.” First, having a fantasy about something is not even a little bit the same as wanting to experience it. Second, men have those same desires (or there would not be dominatrixes, n’est ce pas? I don’t think we should mix up what happens in the bedroom between two partners with pornography.

Here is some research data: None of this means, of course, that real-world rape victims “really want it.” “Women who find submission fantasies sexually arousing are very clear that they have no wish to be raped in reality,” say Leitenberg and Henning. In their fantasies, women control every aspect of what occurs. And their scenarios are far less brutal than real-life attacks. Typically the fantasy involves an attractive man whose restraint is simply overwhelmed by the woman’s attractiveness. These fantasies serve the same psychological purpose as scenes of irresistibility. “It’s different means to the same end” says Leitenberg. “We want to be desired.”

@PupnTaco I agree there is a difference between pornography and erotica. Ever been to the Museum of Erotic Art in San Francisco? They have some wonderful stuff. Especially some of the Chinese erotica.

@All The problem here as I see it is how do you make sure the pornography does not become an obsession, is not fuel for rape and aggression toward women, and does not fall into the hands of young people?

In my mind, the contribution toward the cause of violence against women and objectification of woman may outweigh free expression.

Here are the sobering statistics:

MURDER. Every day four women die in this country as a result of domestic violence, the euphemism for murders and assaults by husbands and boyfriends. That’s approximately 1,400 women a year, according to the FBI. The number of women who have been murdered by their intimate partners is greater than the number of soldiers killed in the Vietnam War.

SEXUAL ASSAULT. Every year approximately 132,000 women report that they have been victims of rape or attempted rape, and more than half of them knew their attackers. It’s estimated that two to six times that many women are raped, but do not report it. Every year 1.2 million women are forcibly raped by their current or former male partners, some more than once.

Pornography is degrading to all participants (men, women, animals, glass-top coffee-tables) equally because they’re all portrayed as objects that exist purely for sexual purposes.
How do you stop people from transferring this image to real life is an interesting question. Banning it won’t work. Banning something that’s in demand never fixes anything.
Personally I think demystify it, strip it of its taboo status and inform people of its nature is the only way to go. Admittedly that may kill off some of the demand for it, but at least then whoever wants it has a realistic expectation to it and doesn’t get a distorted view of the world because of it.

I dont know about all this, but I can’t imagine gay porn being degrading to women…

@wildflower I think you are right about de-mystifying it. If, for example, fathers talked about it and how to use it and how not to use it openly to sons along with talking about the issues of violence against women in our society, I think it might help a lot.

I disagree about equal degradation. Except for niche pornography, most of it is designed for men. Men run the pornography business, the customers are men. Women in the business are subject generally to poor treatment and poor conditions. Also, women in pornography are depicted in demeaning ways servicing men (as if that was their role), where men are depicted in positive ways as they gratify their every sexual whim.

Admittedly, the men on pornographic material are not a turn on to most women, who find them to be jerks, but in men’s eyes the portrayals are not necessarily degrading.

As to the glass top coffee tables, I cannot speak much for them except that I suppose they object to what might be spilled on them during this sort of encounter. :)

@ezraglenn See reference to niche pornography in response to wildflower above.

Ask yourself this…
Would you want, your Mother, Sister or Wife…To be viewed in this light?
Okay, that’s your answer….

@ Marina – thank you for the enlightened information and links. I was uniformed about some of it.

I propose that one thing that can help is communication between partners. If a man and a woman both like to watch a movie then fine. If one doesn’t, the man or woman, then ther is a problem. We are hit with a barrage of media that leads us to believe certain things are acceptable at a certain level for everyone. This is particularly true the younger you are. The fact is, it is NOT true not matter what age you are.

No matter who you are or what your age, if your moving at a pace with someone that doesn’t allow for discussion or comfort for you, stop. Whether its a kiss on the first date or porn on the first anniversary, as long as the lines of communication are open it should work out.

As for the young, I am really really frightened. I have a 3 and a 5 year old. They are going to grow up in a world where they are bombarded by imagery that implies its all just ok. I intend to take the “sip of beer” approach. When I was 15 or 16 and starting to go to parties my folks gave me sips of beer and drinks to educate me so I would know what they tasted like in case some one tried to spike my beverage. I will have talks with my kids that show them sex is nothing to hide from so they can talk to me, so they will listen. I want them to understand the reality apart from the imagery.

I will explain to my son that the biggest thing he can ever do in becoming a man is good old fashioned manners and respect for women. Never be ashamed of being overly concerned about a lady.

And I will teach my daughter that she smart and wonderful in her own right and not one single boy out there is more valuable than her own self respect and comfort.

And if she doesn’t go for that, I will kick the ass of any boy that comes near her.

@Bri_L I agree about partners. I think that falls under the consenting adults and the bedroom umbrella.

I have had similar thoughts about the hard road for kids these days. Caring parents, as you seem to be, are the answer.

Seriously!?! How in the hell is it degrading? No one is forcing those women do to porn. Its their choice, so what. If they want to fuck and be filmed while they do it why make such a big deal. Its just sex.

I took the question to mean is pornography in general, degrading to woman as a whole, not is the movie “Romancing the Bone” degrading to the woman Debbie Darling who stared in it.

My assumption is that just about all women who are involved in the sex trade in any way (pornography or prostitution) have been abused when they were young. Unless they are given serious help to deal with what they have been through, they might be drawn to these trades. The old Italian movie: “Two Women” shows this scenario—with the wartime rape of a young girl and her mother.

@skfinkel You are so right. Here are the statisitcs: “It is believed that 70% of women involved in pornography are survivors of incest or child sexual abuse.” (Women of Substance, Inc., “Pornography Facts,” www.womenofsubstance.org/por.htm)

From Porn Stars Speak Out

Luke Ford asks Porn Star Jenna Presley: “What percentage of
people in the industry do you think have a drug or alcohol problem?”
Jenna: “Huge. I think that 90% of the business does drugs or alcohol but maybe
70% have a problem. I include pot as a drug. I know people who come on set stoned
and they can’t perform. A drug problem to me is when it affects your work life.

Porn Star Belladonna states on Luke Ford website:
“99.9% of the porn industry has Herpes. I have had Herpes for five years.”

Male Porn Star states on his blog “Christian Sings the Blues”
January 28, 2008:
Drugs are a major, major problem in my business. Anyone who says otherwise is
lying to you. I can’t tell you the number of girls who have disappeared and dropped
out of the business because of their drug problems (I could list them, but that’s not
really important). It is unbelievably sad to think about, and seeing some of them fall
into a downward spiral hurts me more than others. But I think we all can agree that
a huge majority of drug users will never change unless they get professional help. I
have seen all manner of drugs on set, at parties, in cars, everywhere. If I had to
guess, I would put marijuana use at 90 percent of ALL people involved in the
industry (performers, directors, crew, agents, drivers, owners, office workers, etc.). I
have been on a set where a girl has passed out DURING a sex scene with me (she
was abusing oxycontin). Just recently a girl overdosed on GHB (a party drug that is
the scourge of Texas, a clear odorless drug that doesn’t mix well with alcohol) on set.
I have seen a girl win a prestigious (lol) AVN Award, not show up to accept the
award, and then fall into the throes of drug use that caused her to lose at least 50
pounds and drop off the face of the earth.

Why is drug use so prevalent in our business? Well, let’s figure that out. First of all,
remember that the business is populated largely with girls aged 18–21. And the
majority of those girls are uneducated (many haven’t graduated high school). Add to
that the fact that many come into the business because they have no money, and
are working at menial jobs like fast food places. So you have young girls who are
uneducated with very little money entering the business.

There are predators out there that can smell these girls and prey on them like sharks.

I don’t think it’s “inherently” degrading to women. I’m sure many are filmed in a manner that degrades women, but there’s nothing inherently so.

I also don’t think that there is a connection between porn and rape. Porn is about lust. Rape is about hate.

@Marina It sounds like many of those studies you cite were designed to achieve a particular result before they began. For example, repeated exposure to violent pornography resulted in men being less offended by it. For me, repeated exposure to raw fish when I lived in Japan for 5 weeks made me start to enjoy sushi. I don’t think that repeated exposure to something resulting in them becoming desensitized should be all that astonishing. How were theses studies controlled?

57 percent of males said they’d commit rape if they could get away with it after watching porn, how does that compare with the control group of men?

It seems pretty reasonable that people in the sex industry are prone to drug and alcohol abuse. You have people who come from the lower classes and who have lots of disposable income. Is the adult entertainment industry any different than say the music industry where you often have a similar situation of people often with lower class backgrounds coming into a lot of money? I’m not seeing controls here that would make these studies an accurate measure of the things they’re trying to study.

I have taken several classes on the sociology and literature of women so I felt like a pretty informed guy when I was in the bedroom. I remember being very surprised how many women wanted me to be rough/violent with them in the bedroom, and almost freaked out by it. I’ve loosened up about the whole thing now, but I must say that studying women in college did a poor job preparing me for the realities of the bedroom.

As far as the rape fantasy thing goes, I do think that this one is fairly common, however the fantasy isn’t a desire for the real thing as some of you have pointed out. My take on it is that women tend to have to balance their own sexual desires against the societal stigma of being judged a promiscuous woman. The rape fantasy then becomes a fulfillment of their sexual desires without having to feel guilty about them since it was beyond their control; I’m certain these women do not want to be violently raped by a stranger, or have their partner continue after they’ve said “no” or “stop.” I have been in the situation where “no” meant “yes”—I know this because I stopped when she said “no” and then she got angry because I stopped (go figure).

I wonder how much of pornography is shaping men’s desires vs. trying to recreate the fantasies that are already there in our DNA? I know I’ve been “inspired” by a few scenes into doing things in my personal life (like how much fun an ice-cube can be, or paint).

But back to the main question, I honestly think there’s something liberating about pornography for women to a certain degree in the sense that the message is “I am a woman, I’m not ashamed of my body, here it is, these are my female sexual desires, here’s how I like to be satisfied. I’m not ashamed about who I am or the desires I have.” Granted not all porn has this particular take, but many of the models tend to express that attitude and I think it’s a healthy one that more women should be comfortable having. I certainly think the morality police have their priorities way out of whack—and that our society’s up-tight view towards sex is pretty crazy.

@gorillapaws: I think I agree with pretty much everything you just said there.

I wonder if society could somehow magically remove the stigma against pornography (and general taboos about sex), would it still attract people with the problems Marina pointed out (history of sexual abuse and tendency toward substance abuse)?

If we somehow elevated porn stars to an elite status in society—they are doing a great kindness for a small subset of people, I think—would the industry still be dominated by people with these issues? I don’t know.

I think the execution of pornography in its current state is pretty demeaning—who could argue that “I’m gonna come on your face, bitch” is a laudatory statement—but I am not convinced that the acts of filming sex and viewing it have to be misogynistic.

I think there is another question in here somewhere about our obligation/ability to fight against “fantasies that are already there in our DNA”—will be thinking about that one.

I don’t think that anyone would argue against there being sexual instincts ingrained into us that exist beneath our socially constructed views towards sex.

I remember reading that men have a strong biological need to know their woman is faithful since they have no means of knowing that the children she bears are his. If a woman has an emotional betrayal of her man by say sending a love letter to another man, but never actually consummates that emotional betrayal with sexual infidelity, then this is easier for her man to forgive than if she made a purely sexual betrayal without any emotional investment in the man she cheated with.

For the woman, the circumstances are flip-flopped in that they have an easier time dealing with sexual infidelity as long as the man has not betrayed her emotionally. Her evolutionary instincts are to ensure that the man she chooses will stick by her to help her raise her child. Because of this an emotional betrayal such as the above mentioned love letter, that is never acted upon sexually can actually be more difficult for a woman to forgive.

Clearly these are generalizations, and we of course can prove who the father of children are now with DNA. We’ve had hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary instincts that will likely take longer than the few years we have been able to determine paternity to work itself out though. I think these patterns seem to be generally true just from anecdotes I’ve heard over the years, but I’m sure there are exceptions to the rule. Does anyone know the theory/essay/book etc. I’m paraphrasing? I’d be interested to look over the original work again.

It seems those themes tend to play themselves out in fantasies that men and women have, at least according to that link Marina posted earlier.

As far as the other stuff Marina has been posting, several links were heavily biased and really didn’t show a causal link between pornography and violence towards women. I think domestic abuse, rape and other crimes against women are horrendous, but I also think it’s a stretch to pin the blame on porn. Women have been getting domestically abused, raped and sexually assaulted long before the current proliferation of porn. Why these activists don’t focus their efforts on addressing those issues directly completely baffles me. $100 dollars spent on teaching young women about the common patterns of spousal abuse and what warning signs to look out for in their future relationships would do a hell of a lot more to help reduce domestic abuse than using it to lobby against porn which is likely not even causally linked to the problem. Surely there’s no surprise that sex offenders like porn, but isn’t it also very likely that sex offenders are just perverts who happen to be drawn to porn as opposed to the porn corrupting fine, upstanding men into evil sex-offending misogynists?

I also think the fear of kids seeing porn is probably significantly overhyped. That one site claimed that the average age boys see a playboy is 11—Is it really that strange that boys going through puberty would be curious about sex? Furthermore, if this is the case, clearly it doesn’t have a huge evil impact on society since the vast majority of men who viewed pornography at that age aren’t sexual criminals now that they’re all grown up.

There’s even a part of me that thinks that kids around the time they hit high school should be exposed to porn in a controlled way. Perhaps if those movies focused on portraying sex in a safe, healthy, and mutually respectful way young men and women would grow up with a much saner view of sexuality-and likely decrease the demand for the less demeaning stuff. I know there were kids in Florida who were drinking bleach after sex to prevent the transmission of std’s (they had an abstinence-only sex-ed program at their school).

And what’s with our society saying that you can be tried and sentenced as an adult at 14, but aren’t mature enough to see a vagina or learn how it works. I think men are generally pretty clueless when it comes to the anatomy of women (and even many women who are clueless about their own anatomy). I’m pretty sure this is a likely culprit for the high percentage of women who have never experienced an orgasm before. And what’s the message there? That the woman’s pleasure is less/not important compared to the man’s pleasure.

Sorry for the rant, but these moralizers really get under my skin.

@ gorillapaws “several links were heavily biased and really didn’t show a causal link between pornography and violence towards women.” could you please cite the links your referring to. I would like to re-read them

Also “I think domestic abuse, rape and other crimes against women are horrendous, but I also think it’s a stretch to pin the blame on porn. Women have been getting domestically abused, raped and sexually assaulted long before the current proliferation of porn.”
I would suggest that while it is true these things existed prior to porn as we know it now, “porn” existed in other forms, or just in the way it was perceived acceptable for men to treat women behind closed doors do to antiquated ideas of male donimance. I don’t think anyone is saying that porn is the absolute when it comes to the cause for abuse.
I personally see a big difference between an 11 year old boy seeing Playboy and an explicit sex movie. Maybe a definition of what we determine porn to be is in order.

The first post about the study between porn and violence (which are 20+ years old too I might add):

Sources: Pornography and Sexual Aggression edited by Dr. Neil Malamuth and Dr. Edward Donnerstein (New York: Academic Press, 1984); Connections Between Sex and Aggre ssion by Dolf Zillman (Hillsdale, New Jersey: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, 1984); and in the work of sociologist Dr. Diana Russell (see “Pornography and Rape: a Causal Model” by Russell in Political Psychology, Vol. 9, No. 1, 1988).

and http://www.womenofsubstance.org/por.htm seemed to be the most biased.

“I don’t think anyone is saying that porn is the absolute when it comes to the cause for abuse.”
-I’d settle for any solid CAUSAL link (not simply correlation)

And I understand that there were forms of porn that date back to ancient times depending on how you define it, but with the recent explosion of internet porn and how common it has become, if there was even a modest causal connection, there would have to be a proportionally large upswing in violence against women (after controlling for other variables such as higher rates of reporting these crimes). This hasn’t happened.

I also agree that there is a difference in playboy and an explicit sex movie. In some cases, like if the playboy model has massive implants, I could see how it could arguably do more harm to that kid’s views of sexuality than if he saw an explicit sex movie that was more natural and had a less objectifying quality to it. Implants arguably send the message that it’s appropriate for women to mutilate their bodies to make themselves more pleasing and enhance the sexual gratification of men (well at least tasteless men).

I do think having definitions of these concepts is useful, but that said, I think porn is a pretty elusive thing to nail down with a definition. One supreme court justice said something to the effect of “I can’t give you a definition of porn, but I know it when I see it.” -was that from The people vs. Larry Flynt?

Thank you for the clarification. I disagree with the first comment. I don’t believe, in this case, that the date of the study has any baring on the significance of the data. I am very open to how that would be though.

I do agree that the source of the second study seems biased.

I am uncertain as to the validity of the next point. We are into guessing areas here. Way back women didn’t report things like this. Yes now there is the internet and a great deal more porn but there are a great deal more people so proportionality goes out the window if we compare growth in numbers back in time. Also, when it comes to reporting figures the media a summer or two back turned what was I think the 4th weakest year for shark attacks into a panic fest by covering it. I think we need some data.

I remember that quote. My wife uses the same argument. “I don’t know what you did wrong but I will know it when I see it!” :-)

Just call a spade, a spade. Sex is sex, porn is porn and anyone dim enough to think porn represents reality is also a spade and exposure to porn or not is likely to make some silly->horrendous decisions in their life-time.

As a woman who has been filmed having sex, albeit not for money, I must say I have not felt degraded in the least. I truely enjoyed the experiences and was proud to have others watch what was filmed. I am proud of my body and sexuality. I have raised a good family and I am in a great relationship. Seems like no harm was done and much pleasure was derived from the experiences.

the concern for some, myself included, is that younger people might not make the distinction between sex and porn

Then their sex education has failed them.

@ Sueanne – Thank you very much for your input. You provided a much needed and under represented side of the debate.

@Bri—You’re welcome. I am new here and wasn’t sure what kind of response I might get. What a friendly little community you have!

we try to. it can get heated but most people here understand its about the discussion and the process. WELCOME!

the sex is sex, porn porn thing might go back to the need for a definition.

I have to leave now. I have an interview. Fingers crossed!

Perhaps a class-trip to Copenhagen should become mandatory in schools.

As to the date of the study being problematic I think the stigma that went along with porn in the 80’s was very different than it is now—that may have biased the types of candidates willing to participate in such a study back then as one example. Again, I have to reiterate that it seems like there is an absence of controls here. Were there other (non-pornographic) things tested in a similar fashion? How did the two compare? Is there some unique feature of pornography that makes it particularly effective at changing our beliefs or is it more to do with the methodology of the study?

The rape stat is particularly troubling but what is that figure compared to the general adult male population of the same demographics as the participants? Were they asked to articulate how they envisioned that act taking place? I wonder if you asked them if they found a large sum of money and they were guaranteed to not get caught if they kept it, how many would, or if could beat someone up and not get into any trouble what the percent would be—i.e. is this about raping my boss because I hate her and want to cause her pain? or is it about lust, as in having sex with some girl I’ve always fantasized about but will never get the chance to actually have sex with such as the head cheerleader, or that famous actress etc. or is it more to-do with the thrill/wrong of the dark-alley rape of a total stranger which I would think is the most pathological and troublesome of the scenarios (Not that the other 2 are healthy, but they can at least be understood in a way that doesn’t necessitate a totally misogynistic worldview).

As far as guessing at the statistics, you’re right to a point. Adjusting for population changes, changing rates of reporting, guessing at the rates of unreported cases etc. are all somewhat shaky. There are statistical techniques out there that do a decent job of this kind of stuff though and they also yield a margin of error. That said, there has been a massive explosion in the pornography industry over the last 10 years or so. If the relationship is causal, as has been claimed, then we should see a correspondingly significant jump in violence towards women. Even with the fuzziness of statistical models, the results would be apparent and blatant. We simply aren’t seeing this increase today which is kind of telling about the relationship between porn and violence against women imho. I do agree that hard data would be nice though.

@sueanne Welcome to Fluther, and thanks for sharing your thoughts/story with us. I agree that the perspective of women such as yourself are often underrepresented in discussions such as these.

I can appreciate your approaching the controls angle better than the statistics angle. That I understand because it means we are looking for something we can find, not guessing at something we can’t. Might the types have been biased? We don’t know. Were there studies that controdicted the findings? That we could look for.

Those are seriously disturbing statistics.

Very valid point on the guessing. I am starting to miss my college stats classes. You know I got A’s in 5 out of 4 of them.

@Bri L, I’m dyslexic so I had to read that last sentence a couple times before I got the joke and laughed out loud. :D

Also good point about looking for something we can find instead of guessing at something we can’t—hard to argue with logic that’s so sound.

I am going to print that last line out and show it to my wife. That’ll show her! hehe

Do that an you could risk pornography being your only source of sexual gratification for a loooong time. Damn women and their sexual trump cards…

hehehehe. Then your left playing with only the hand you’ve got and no trump.

It definitely broadens mens imagination, that’s for sure.

“There are predators out there that can smell these girls and prey on them like sharks.”

But are they really the only “predators”. How about all the people out there that watch these movies of these young girls being exploited. You could say that those people are predators in their own right as well. There is a saying that a man that stands by and does nothing is the worst thing you can do. Those of us that watch porn, are standing by and letting it happen just so we can rub one out.

No, not at all unless you let it be.

it depends on what the woman finds to be degrading, granted i figure it takes a certain type of girl to have sex and suck cock on film, but i do not find it degrading in general, it just makes some girls see and look like whores and sluts, but they have the right to be sluts and whores