If McCain wins, would I be justified in leaving the country?

I think id only be justified if your willing to take me with you ^_^

I have a funny feeling (in the God forsaken event that he wins) that Palin will quit in a year and he will put Liberman in. Don’t ask me why, it’s just a gut feeling.

If you cared, you’d smuggle me out of the country Hobbes.

@ Judi – that does kind of make sense… Palin’s an idiot, but she’s charismatic. Good for winning elections, but not so good at actually holding office.

I’d love it if you were right, Judi, but Palin does not impress me as the type to willingly give up power.

we’ll see.

I remember people saying similar things in 2004. Does anybody know if people really left the US in the last 4 years?

I’ve already made plans to move to Japan if he does win. I can’t speak the language, my family has no idea that I’m planning this, and I haven’t told anybody else about this yet. So we’ll see how it goes.

It seems you guys have given up??? I still think Obama has a better chance.

That would be pretty lame, quitting the game just because you didn’t win just isn’t Cricket, instead you should kick the referree in the head and then make friends with Fidel Castro deal with the consequences of the democratic process, (majority rulz bitchez).

Besides, McCain couldn’t be any worse than Bush… could he? Now I’m concerned

@Blue: McCain might not be, but Palin? The idea makes me shudder.

That’s true. I can’t imagine McCain governs worse than Bush but I can imagine Palin turns out to be worse than Bush.

@bluemukaki – well, technically, it may not be “majority rulz”, as the election will be decided not by the popular vote but by the electoral college.

I think McCain would at least have a vague idea of what the hell he’s doing, even if his policies are awful. Palin… god. The idea of her as president terrifies me.

If McCain gets in, I offically quit politics forever. It’d just be too painful.

You know, the way I see it, if you smash your head against a brick wall repeatedly and you stop, yes, you’re giving up. But if you want to survive or retain your mental integrity, sometimes that’s the only option.

In this case, people fought valiantly against Bush, Gore won the first time around and the system was rigged. We didn’t give up. Four years later Kerry should have won, but whether it was stolen or just a result of the fact that the electorate is easily manipulated enough that more of them thought the draft dodger was a stronger commander in chief than a decorated war veteran, and yet we still didn’t give up. Now we stand in a situation where Obama is actually the Democrat many of us have been waiting for, McCain is a repeat of Bush, and Palin is even worse (and is not only dangerous ideologically, but woefully unprepared), and every other word out of the mouths of either McCain or Palin is a bald faced lie, yet McCain is up in the polls. Well, the public is just getting stupider if they believe this bullshit! How can you run for months on the experience issue and then pick someone for your second in command whose main qualification is that she lives close to Russia? Yet people are BUYING it. How can you campaign for a bridge in 2006 and then say you were against it in 2008, when video evidence proves you a liar, and people still fucking buy it?

No, you can only beat your head against a brick wall for so long, and then it becomes a matter of self preservation. Leave if you must, realize that if we lose this one, there’s really nothing left worth fighting for. Bush destroyed our Democracy and unless we restore integrity to our governmental systems, something McCain CLEARLY has no intention of doing, there will be no Democracy left to fight for. Save yourself. But don’t leave until we’ve lost….we CAN and I believe WILL win this thing. If we don’t, I don’t know WHAT I’m going to do.

@Hobbes: let’s not forget the voting machine factor.

If you feel leaving is like “an abandonment of the country – running away from its problems rather than trying to fix them”, consider how much you think the country will be better off if you stay, and if it’s worth it to you.

Personally, I’d find stuff like the Patriot Act and other invasions on privacy far more disturbing than just a McCain presidency.

Then again, if you move to a EU country, you might be in a similar situation in a few years. The US still has a huge influence and is pushing through intrusive laws in the EU as well.

Good luck anyway, whatever you decide to do :)

Is EVERYONE on this site a BO supporter? Holy crap!!! uberbatman & Hobbs, you 2 want to leave? Hit the road, you will love Japan. Quitters never win and I for one won’t miss any whining BO supporters.

Actually, as we have seen before, majority doesn’t rule. I practically spew bile from my mouth every time I speak the words “electoral college.”

@Cardinal, agreed for sure

Mikey, i’m fully intending to move to Canada if that were to happen. You can come with. ;)

I fear palin more than I can say. She’s sadistic, stupid, and evangelical. Unfit to run anything, let alone the country. Mccain has had every type of skin cancer possible, and has less than a 60 percent chance of surviving his presidency… and that’s just according to the things we KNOW about his health.

There’s nothing I hate more then people who make statements like, “If so and so wins, I’m leaving this country.” No you’re not. You’re just spewing the same old crap that everyone says every four years.

I support BO because of his stance on a ton of issues. I’ve done my reasearch and I understand that most people haven’t. When you guys say you’re going to leave the country, and then don’t. It just makes liberals look like a bunch of winey cowards with no follow through.

I’m grouped in with you guys because of who I’m voting for. Surely there’s some middle ground between winey liar and resolve so strong that no hard physical evidence can sway you (no offense anyone who supports the current regeime).

Correction: Australia. I have to go there anyways, most likely, for school.

If McCain wins I will do what I can to move the country along.

…I actually do know someone who left the second time Bush was elected. LOL some of them do leave.

I would guess less then 1% of people who say they’ll leave actually do. Not one single person I know left (a bunch said they would if Bush was reelected). Some people who had already planned to leave for other reasons (work, love, life, etc.) might say it’s because of the political climate. Yea well, chances are that it’s not.

If you’re rich enough to move on a whim because of our crappy state of government, good for you. Do it. If you’d like to tuck your tail and run because your opinion isn’t the popular one, I don’t mind one bit if you leave the country. Meanwhile, I’ll stay here and write letters to my congressmen. Your political opinion only matters if you exercise it. Vote. Write your congressmen. Become involved in something.

You can love your country without loving your government. They don’t decide what you think. Their actions are suppose to be based on your opinions. If they aren’t, work to change them.

When we say “if ______ wins, I’m leaving,” I read that as a sign of the strength of our feeling. While I know one person who left for Canada over the last four years, it was mainly so he could have an organic farm in British Columbia, and he wanted to retire, in addition to the fact that he hated Bush. It was a good thing he did go, because he got a rare form of cancer and he never would have been able to afford his medical bills if he hadn’t been in Canada.

My friends and parents and so many people I know have made this statement—first with Reagan, and then the two Bushes. We were sure the country would go to hell under these Presidents, and while they all made things significantly worse, I guess it wasn’t exactly hell. So, McCain, too, shall pass. So will Palin.

Many liberals are wealthy enough that Republican tax breaks actually benefit them more than all the hoi polloi. It’s odd being in a position where you can espouse one set of humanistic beliefs, while benefitting even if inhuman policies are implemented. Well, I guess you can give more to charity in that situation.

Anyway, we should be smart enough to invest in defense, oil, and anti-immigrant industries, making money on these things even as we fight them. I suppose that’s hypocritical, but with everyone in mutual funds these days, that’s pretty much what is happening.

You’d absolutely be justified. I understand Europe loves sore losers.

Sure, but you wouldn’t be able to afford it. The dollar has lost so much ground against the Euro by now that we’ve become a nation of paupers.

@Poser and several others – it’s not about being a sore loser, it’s about not wanting to live in a country controlled by idiots, cowards, crooks and fanatics.

Where have you been living all your life, if not such a country?

Perhaps Hobbes should have said, “it about no longer wanting to live in a country controlled by idiots, cowards, crooks and fanatics.”

And to be wholly fair, prior to GWB stealing the 2000 elections, most of us thought that wasn’t something that could be done in America. And prior to 9/11, we didn’t really think facism and mind control were things that could be effective in America. And prior to the Swift Boating and the evangelical uprising in the 2004 election, many of us had a lot more faith in the electorate, and considered religious fanaticism to be a fringe issue, not a huge component of our mainstream culture. The point is, if in 2008, when Democrats have a MASSIVE advantage in terms of dissatisfaction with the previous administration, a MASSIVE structural advantage in terms of number of registered voters, and numbers of new voters being registered, at a time when the economy is in the toilet, huge banks are failing, unemployment is at its highest rate in years, millions of people are losing their homes, 1/6th of the population is uninsured and a vast number more are underinsured, nearly 1/6th of the population lives in poverty, we just saw the first raise in the minimum wage in decades, we no longer live in fear of 9/11, we’re in a vastly unpopular war which the Dems want to end and the Republicans do not…and we have a populist candidate who excites and energizes people, including the youth voters to a degree heretofore unseen…we SHOULD be running away with this thing.

Yet, we have an old man who embraces the failed policies of the last 8 years, someone who’s had cancer 4 times and is the oldest person ever to be nominated to head a major party for the first time, who won’t release all of his medical records, and he picks a second in command who hasn’t even been properly vetted, who is embroilled in personal and professional scandal, and who’s only experience is Mayor of a small town (which under he watch became the meth capital of her entire state), and 20 month governor of the 3rd smallest state in the US…a person who has rarely traveled outside the US, who has basically refused to take questions from the media or discuss issues and when she did, has made very serious errors in judgement on foreign affairs issues, and is also someone who embraces extremely far right values which are strongly outside of the mainstream. Now this ticket might get elected because gosh oh golly, people just like her down to earth, mooseburger eating persona!

The problem is, if we were engaging in real debate on the issues, the Obama/Biden ticket would resonate with FAR more people than the McCain/Palin ticket, but McCain has done what Republicans do best, and has connected with voters emotionally. And therefore a huge share of the population are going to vote against their own self interests. And the problem is, this election is about changing the tone, so that we elect good leaders from here on out. If we elect Obama, we’ll have someone who hasn’t run a campaign based on lies and personality based attacks. The problem is, if this doesn’t work now, I can’t imagine that it will EVER work. All hope is lost.

So asking where he’s been living all his life, well the answer is probably not where he thought. I for one will lose all faith in America if the majority of people pick the politics of personal destruction over the politics of common sense. Eventually, we gotta cut our losses, because after all, the definition of insanity is trying the same thing again and expecting a different result. We’ve already tried again, but as George W. Bush himself said, “There’s an old saying in Tennessee—I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee—that says, fool me once, shame on—shame on you. Fool me—you can’t get fooled again.”

Thank you petrie – you’ve perfectly summed up my anticipated disgust with the whole system. I would say that the answer is education, that if people are taught to be good thinkers they will not be such idiots when they elect presidents, but with the last administration’s ignorant and destructive meddling in education, even that is falling apart at the seams.

I’ve already lost all faith in America. The problem (right now) is that Democrats’ memories are too short—they can’t remember anything before GW—and Republicans’ memories are too selective—they can’t remember anything after Reagan.

Meanwhile, the only difference between the two parties is abortion.

As someone still enlisted in the IRR, I will be leaving the country if McCain is elected, and I would rather go to Chile than Iran.

@Cardinal – no I’m not. I know nothing about both, so I have no stance (I can’t vote in the US anyway). I seriously doubt the majority of votes really knows what both want (/say they want), and even if they did, I’d need to see if they’d really keep their promises. And if they don’t, they probably won’t be judged on not keeping their promises because everybody forgets.

I think you’re entirely justified in leaving the country.

However, I also think you should just do it—going on and on and on about it before it’s relevant doesn’t really convince anyone, and if you make a lot of noise about it and then don’t follow through, it just makes you look like an ass.

cwilbur, I couldn’t agree with you any more. I’m out of GAs but I’d give you ten if I could.

Why spend 1 second blabbing about it? Just move if you’re going to do it. If you threaten to do it, then don’t, it weakens your argument when you don’t follow through. The only thing worse then a deserter is a failed deserter. You can’t even leave right.

If America is a sinking ship (and it is. The current administration has destroyed the environment, the budget, our good reputation etc), you can run to the lifeboats if you want, but the rest of us are going to try to patch the hole and if we all work together we can empty out the water with our buckets before the ship goes under. It doesn’t help if you stand there with your bucket and do nothing so just go ahead and get on the lifeboat.

The only difference is that if we were on a boat, we would push you on the lifeboat because your complaining isn’t helping anything. Do something about it. You are not powerless. You are not helpless. But if you say you are leaving the country and don’t, you just might be spineless.

If the politics of pessimism succeeds over the politics of optimism this time around, what incentive do we even have any more to remain optimistic, though?

And hey, I’ve been in discussions with conservatives before about the merits of Canada’s health care system vs. ours, and one argument that always comes forth is “brain drain”...the theory being that in a more “socialized” environment, they don’t pay their doctors and other professionals as well and they all come to the US. Well, it’s the smart people who just plain can’t friggin’ take it any more, if another election is won by the worst possible candidate at the worst possible time simply because people just “like” his VP pick and can “relate” to her, it’s the same as the “who would you rather have a beer with” question that brought Bush within the margin he needed to rig the 2000 election and have his pals on the Supreme Court install him. The smartest people are going to start following through, so you can go on and on about deserters and stupid going on about it and this and that and the other thing, but bottom line, by bringing it up, it’s a call to action to anyone who really is still asleep at the wheel to say, hey now, wait a minute. If we let stupidity trump common sense yet again, not only are the stupid STILL in the majority, that majority is only going to get bigger as people give up and see better alternatives around the globe. I think less than a decade ago, you’d have been hard pressed to find an American who didn’t think he was lucky to have been born in the greatest country in the history of the world. Now you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting one. Even if some of the threats turn out to be hyperbole, the emotion is raw and real, and should not be discounted so easily.

@bodyhead – if we really were all working together to bail out the ship, I’d stay. But instead, most people on the ship refuse to believe it’s sinking, some don’t know what “sinking” means, some put blind faith in the captain and first mate who wrecked the ship in the first place to bail them out because they’re such “down-to-earth guys”, some are blaming the gay people and the deck hands on the ship for its sinking, and no-one is listening to the group of people desperately shouting that if only we could work together, we could save everyone.

@Hobbes, I love your metaphors. That really gave me a good chuckle. Even on the boat, if you’re threatening to leave and doing nothing else, you’re dead weight.

@dalepetrie, The emotion may be real but I hear it a little too often. Enough with the pity party.

It’s not like the threat of you moving changes the political climate whatsoever. Let me just call all the idiots in middle America and tell them that if they don’t vote right, someone they’ve never heard about going to move to another country. They’ll cry themselves to sleep tonight.

If you want to move, that’s fine. No one is going to stop you. I’d welcome you here with open arms if you wanted to stay. We’re all in this together. The problem comes when 99% of people who say they are going to move, stay instead. You’re just running your mouth and going no where. Why not use that raw emotion to stage a protest against creationism in schools or write a letter to the paper about a woman’s right to choose. I appreciate the sentiment but complaining gets you no where.

If bitching and moaning could make the world a better place, we would truly be the greatest nation in the world.

Really the great irony is that all of you guys who are counterpointing me are voting the same way (assuming you are voting).

@bodyhead – just to clarify, I’m not “threatening” to move, I’m honestly asking fluther’s opinion. Also, I don’t expect it to change the political climate – the intention would be to escape the repercussions of his election.

Anyone ever hear of Brain Drain?

@Hobbes, No worries, I wasn’t attacking anyone. I go so far to say I totally respect the opinion of everyone who disagrees with me. That’s what the freedom of speech is all about.

I have a question.

Don’t we as Americans have a duty to do what we can to support who ever wins?

If we don’t isn’t it like saying “I want that boat”, being put on the one we don’t choose and then taking it apart in protests?

@Bri: On that argument, isn’t it the duty of the person in charge to do what the people want?

You can support the foundations that your country was built on by disagreeing with your government. It was set up so you have the opportunity to do that. We’re no long a monarchy.

If stupid people are easily swayed by religious propaganda, start making some.

Brain Drain is my point exactly, we risk reverse brain drain, and though someone can call it bitching and moaning, by pointing it out, perhaps we wake a few of the more apathetic to realize that hey, all these people who are actually engaged in the process and seem to be smart enough to know what’s going on are saying it’s bad enough that they may leave America! The Greatest Country in the world™. What could have made it this bad? Maybe all that “bitching” gets enough people to sit up and listen, and indeed before the result is set in stone is the time to be making these arguments. If the threats turn out to be hollow after the fact, the damage is done, no one cares anymore, no one pays attention at that point, and if they do, their voices won’t matter anyway. So, I’m not adverse to anyone making this threat, hollow or not, because there are a LOT of people who need SOMETHING, ANYTHING to wake them up to the realities of just how bad things have gotten. If threats to leave it are what it takes, then so be it. As you bodyhead yourself said that if stupid people are easily swayed by propaganda, so we should start making some, isn’t saying that a McCain Presidency would be bad enough to make some of us expatriate exactly that?

Thanks Dale!

@ poof – yes it is and by theory the guy who wins is who the majority want. Then we should all move forward with the machinery in place and mechanisms there are to fix things or change them so they work.

Isn’t baling or checking out for 4 years or doing nothing just like jumping ship on the patriots because what’s his name got hurt so it will be harder for them to cheat this year?

@Bri – we’re not taking the boat apart, we’re questioning the fitness for leadership of a captain steering our “unsinkable ship” straight towards an iceberg.

In addition, here are some more concrete reasons why I would move:

1. I want access to good health care
2. I want to avoiding the probably draft
3. I want to live in a place away from religious fundamentalists.
4. I want to get out before the economy collapses
5. I actually do want to live in the UK, and especially to do so before it is mostly under water
6. I don’t want my internet to be taxed
7. I don’t want to live in a country where money is continually sucked out of public education, and where schools continue to be measured based on an increasing number of bullshit tests.
8. I don’t want to be under Sarah Palin’s command in any way, shape, or form. That woman is like Huckabee on crack.

@ Hobbes – WAY better analogy.

1. That isn’t going to happen here unless you have the right kind of job.
2. That isn’t going to happen here either, they have no way to enforce it.
3. There is no where to go like that.
4. Choose wisely, if ours goes, it will ripple, china and japan depends a great deal on us.
5. That is a great idea and nothing should stop you.
6. I don’t know what that is like elsewhere in the world but I would be surprised if that made it through considering the construct of how it would be implimented.
7. I hear that!!!!
8. HaHaHa – I hear that as well!!!!

1. The UK has National Health.
2. What do you mean? Public outcry might be a problem, but not enforcement.
3. The UK is one of the least religious countries on Earth, or at least the most free of Fundies (except perhaps Denmark and Sweden).
4. The pound has been continually, exceptionally stable.
5. That is true – it would be difficult to implement, but McCain does support internet taxation.

The tree of liberty must be occasionally watered with the blood of patriots and tyrants. “Thomas Jefferson”

…just as soon as I finish my Big Mac….

1. righto, I was agreeing with you
2. if they had a mass draft there would be no real way to enforce it, bring everyone in, or accommodate them would there? Maybe I am just not thinking this through.
3. I forget, who saves the Queen? Just kidding TOTALLY kidding. I had no idea.
4. I had read, and I will find it, an article that traced the probable route of effect were our economy to fail, as sound as the pound (hehe) may be, it wouldn’t be.
5. McCain thinks the internet are the 13 net like stints they put in his heart
http://www.seconds-count.org/images/stentSteps.jpg

1. I see =] Didn’t see the “here”.
2. The draft worked fine in Vietnam, didn’t it?
3. Well, a fair number of people go to church, but for the most part it’s essentially a social gathering, not a matter of religious belief.
5. Did you know he doesn’t know how to use a computer?

2. yes, but I thought that was the last time they used it and that was also why they stopped. now we can’t afford the volunteers we have let a lone the people it would take to do anything about a mass refusal.
3. I love the show “Vicar of Dibly”
4. Yeah, he is SOOO in touch.

As a proud American I will support my president, even if it was not my choice. I will support my country, and I will try to change the things I don’t like.

“proud American” is all well and good but I don’t see the point of living in hell for 4–8 more years if you don’t have to, just so you can say you’re a proud American. You can be a proud wife of someone but if they dump on you, are you going to stay with them just so you can say you’re “proud wife of—”?

@ mzgator – my take has always been – do what I can with what I have.

@ poofandmook – so how do you decide when to try and work at it and when to cut bait?

in my [admittedly pessimistic] opinion, we can only try and work at it during election time. Once the President has been sworn in, it’s out of our hands. Sure, you can write all the letters in the world to whomever you please, but in the end they’re still going to do what they want to do.

I see. Thank you. :-)

mzgator——like lots of good Germans in 1930?

allen, They didn’t try to change their government. When they tried, they were killed. If we get to that point, I’ll move out of the country.

i guess I’m getting kicked off fluther, notice has been served—I’ve enjoyed all of you folks…..good luck…...ag

Too bad. I’ve enjoyed your rants and what not. Good luck brother.

hahahahahahahaha

What are you laughing at, KB? And why are you being kicked off, allen?

on Allen…
Surely it’s because of his answers (which can be rather harsh sometimes). I’m willing to bet he leaves some of the most highly flagged responses. He can be both accusatory and blunt. And somehow his answers always seem to churn out an intense emotional response.

on KB…
I would guess he’s laughing at Allen leaving one of his trademark responses and getting kicked off fluther two comments later.

they gave me the chance to stay, you are not through with me yet.

so you’re the one flagging me…...

allengreen,

I have never flagged you and I’ve agreed with most if not all of what you said. But I can understand, you come off as VERY confrontational and argumentative, and unfortunately what I’ve realized is, particularly in the political realm, doing that pretty much firms up the partisans/the base…it puts your enemy on the defensive and then facts can not get through. It’s the strategy they used with Palin…people started ugly rumors about her, said things that could be misconstrued as sexist, etc. and made it about personality…the Republicans just used that to offend their base, because their base needed firming up. Dems are pretty much on board this time around, and essentially that leaves Dems with two challenges. We can try to convince people who’ve gone over to the Republican side, but if we try to do it the way you do it by throwing out your “all Republicans are evil” rhetoric, it will turn them off and give them no reason to listen to you. It’s far better to say, “I understand why you like McCain and Palin or why you agree with trickle down economics, but consider these facts…” If you don’t make it hostile and accusatory, people who might be leaning to the right might actually LISTEN to you…what you do will just turn them off. As for independents who haven’t made up their mind, let’s face it, far too many of them are just going to make up their mind based on a gut feeling. If Dems go around talking about how vile and evil the Republicans are, then they’re going to believe when someone like Bush calls us the “angry left” and they’re going to be turned off of a left leaning ideology.

I think you have every right to be angry, and believe me, I share your anger. But we’re not going to win hearts and minds in this election by coming off as shrill, hostile and angry. That sits well with people like me who are pissed and would never vote for McCain, but those whose votes are still winnable will see this type of thing twisted so that it looks like the nice, innocent Republicans are being beat up on by the mean evil Democrats. It’s a self enforcing irony.

So, I’m glad to see you’re back, but I’d encourage you to try to stick to the facts. The whole reason I post here and no longer on Askville is that the Rethuglicans on there behaved exactly the way you do only in reverse (and I use Rethuglican to indicate not ALL Republicans, but those who behave in this manner), and their management wouldn’t do anything about it. If we engage in rational discussion and use facts (which you clearly have a good grasp of), and disagree without being disagreeable, we will win this one.

That’s my two cents, take it or leave it.

Hah! I would never flag you no matter how much I disagree with your message. I too, like dalepetrie, share your anger and actually agree with a lot of your points. Maybe just turn the anger knob back to 8 from 11.

I’ve only flagged one message in my entire time here and I can’t remember why I did it but I know it wasn’t yours.

I disagree that rational discussion will bring Republicans to our side—they are racist, they hate America (they have destroyed our wealth and economy) and have destroyed the American brand internationally. We cannot convince them since they have faith and cannot be reasoned with unless Jesus whispers in their ears. They think if they destroy America and our environment and make endless war that they are helping Jesus come sooner—THESE FOLKS ARE BEYOND REASON.
They need to be called out. They need to be held to account individually. They need to be ostracized. They need to be made to eat kitty litter. They should be treated like Redcoats in 1776——the enemies and traitors that they are. Words mean something or they don’t, let’s call a duck a duck. Democrats are losers because they are polite and play by the rules, and we will lose this time too.
That said the majority of Democrats agree with you and not me, and so we will lose. Clinton said in 1992, “Americans will follow someone who is strong and wrong, over someone that is right and weak”. It is true.
So stop playing into Repub talking points about “angry left” if you are not angry, then you are not paying attention. I’m mad and angry as hell, and I’m not going to take it anymore.

Flag away.

So much for a kinder softer Allen Green. I cannot help my self.

Ok, Allengreen, the