General Question

Zuma's avatar

What is socialism? And why do people think its bad?

Asked by Zuma (5908points) November 4th, 2008

In response to the recent economic meltdown, we’ve been hearing a lot of interesting and novel economic proposals. But all anyone has to do to shoot it down is to say, “But that’s socialism!” and it discredits the proposal and ends any discussion on the matter. I strongly suspect that the people who use this ploy(and the people who fall for it) couldn’t really give you an accurate definition of socialism.

There almost seems to be a kind of “Emperor’s New Clothes” quality to the term. Its as if people pretend to know what socialism means, but instead they are simply responding to a cue which signal them to reject it as something bad. Nobody raises questions whether the being label “socialism” actually is, much less raise the question of what is wrong with socialism that enables you to reject it out of hand, since to do so would expose the fact that you don’t know what socialism actually means.

I suspect that calling someone a socialist is a bit like calling someone a Muslim. It is an attempt to shut off discussion of an idea before it can be considered—prejudicially rejecting ideas that maybe should be considered in a crisis.

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22 Answers

Maverick's avatar

yes. Everything you said.

damien's avatar

I think Wikipedia sums up Socialism quite well:

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

So it’s basically a hazy grey area in between capitalism and communism… At least, that’s how I understand it.

You may also want to have a look at this

I don’t think socialism is a bad thing if it’s done right. It’s just hard for westerners to look at something which is comparable with communism with an open mind. It’s also worth noting that a state doesn’t have to be entirely socialist or entirely communist or capitalist. There’s a balance to be had.

Sueanne_Tremendous's avatar

I don’t think the basic tenets of socialism are that difficult to understand. I do think that there is much more to it than making simple statements about what it is, but it’s easy to be against it by looking at those basic tenets: From Wiki: Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society.[1][2] Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution which represents the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.[3][4]

From that statement alone I have no problem saying I don’t agree with socialism or a move toward socialism. It is my opinion that government should divest itself of private enterprise then to become ingrained in it. State or collective ownership and administration of production is not the principles that this country was founded upon.

So, I guess to answer your question, I would think that not everyone is well versed in the full meaning of socialism, however, there is a basic understanding that most would have to be able to make the statement that they do not agree with socialism.

mea05key's avatar

All i know about socialism is that the concept distributes wealth in society. How it differs from communism.. i have no idea. Probably like what damien said its between capitalism and communism.

By right there should be a balance in adopting an economic idea. Socialism and communism is bad in the sense that it causes people to be lazy. Who will want to work hard when money comes in easily. When there is too much capitalism, the gap between the rich and poor gets bigger. Its hard for the poor to get a better living with the rich monopolying the whole economy. Communism is totally an ideal concep t which could never be achieved in reality. Communism by Karl Marx was never applied in any country. The current communism society is totally different and is devised by greedy people to achieve their goal.

Lve's avatar

First of all, in my view socialism and communism are not the same. For instance, in a communist society nobody would have property rights, whereas this is not the case with socialism. This is a big difference since property rights are an important part of a capitalist system.

For me socialism means that the people who make relatively more money pay relatively more taxes, to put it simply, and thus socialism is about achieving more equality.

The statement that under socialism people ‘just get money handed to them’ is not true, since the revenue that governments get from taxes is not given directly to people with less money to spend on whatever they feel like. Instead, it is given as a subsidy to help people pay for their health insurance, their kids’ education, etc.

A degree of socialism is therefore needed to create a society where people have an equal chance to become successful.

tonedef's avatar

People always say the s-word derisively or fearfully, but without socialistic policies, we’d be in a much less advantageous position in the world without them. Even if we did somehow manage to survive the Depression and WW2 without the totally pinko economic policies of FDR, where would we be today without crop subsidies, investment regulation, or medicare?

Arguments against any kind of liberal government policy will, 85% of the time, include the basic idea that, “It’s my money!” But a quick glance at the numbers of individuals without health insurance demonstrates that perhaps, general citizens aren’t experts in healthcare and insurance, and they need a government to help them help themselves.

Adopting a handful of good policies that are socialistic will in no way doom the country to wearing matching gray overalls, paying 100% income tax, and standing in ration lines. It just won’t.

jrpowell's avatar

@Sueanne_Tremendous

“State or collective ownership and administration of production is not the principles that this country was founded upon.”

I’m not really going to argue your premise here. But I wonder why the original premises this country were founded upon are not malleable. It isn’t 1814 anymore, maybe we need to update things to reflect out current situation.

The “Founding Fathers” probably didn’t think about a high school nerd 200 years in the future with a Uzi.

Zuma's avatar

Something I should have asked as part of the original question: “Can you identify the socialistic aspects of the American political economy?”

Some of the answers so far seem painfully Googled. Unfortunately, the Wikipedia entry under “socialism” tends to get bogged down in the historical specific of Marxist states. The entry under “socialist economics” gives a better overview of the transferable principles that have been, or can be, incorporated into a mixed economy, such as ours.

dalepetrie's avatar

The problem with the term Socialism is that too few people understand that it’s entirely an economic concept. Basically you can look at economic issues on a continuum from Communism on the far left and Pure Capitalism on the far right. In Communism, everything would be owned by the government and distributed to the people, if you think about hippies in the 60s, a lot of people called them Communists/Pinkos/etc., and to be fair, the did often live in communes. Everything is shared, nothing is owned. Socialism is to the right of this, wherein with pure socialism at it’s center, the government is more about creating distribution according to need in order to strengthen society.

In capitalism, everything is privately owned in it’s most pure form. Socialism kind of sits in the middle, actually a bit left of the middle. What most European countries have, and what many in America strive for is a sort of Social Democracy. This would essentially be a Capitalist nation where some things were owned by the government and some redistribution took place to meet the needs of a healthy society.

In other words, if we let Capitalism run unfettered, the theory is that it will create classes of people, the haves and the have nots, and that is all well and good if the have nots have “enough” to get by. But Socialism’s main critique of pure capitalism is that greed and power will converge and basically create sort of a Social Darwinism…economic survival of the fittest, wherein the have nots basically can not get by, and live a life of economic indentured servitude.

In most Democratized countries, there is some form of Social Democracy…that is right of Socialism and left of pure Capitalism. Under the Republicans we have drifted further and further to the right and closer to Social Darwinism/Pure Capitalism by concentrating more and more of the wealth in the hands of the haves, and taken away more and more of the social safety net for the have nots.

What people don’t, in my opinion understand, is that Social Democracies flourish throughout the world, and these countries that adopt these policies (which are essentially what Obama advoacates for) still have capitalism, the haves still get very wealthy, no one takes away anyone’s motivation to work hard to get ahead…OK, maybe you die worth $20 billion instead of $50 billion, boo fucking hoo. People also don’t understand that when FDR took office, we didn’t have things to keep people from falling through the cracks, and he created a social safety net, so that if people fell too ill or became too old to work, they had some income security. Another thing people don’t understand is that some things just need to be socialized (run, controlled, funded by the government). Schools, the post office, libraries, and huge public works projects like the interestate system and other infrastructure…these are things that capitalism will never get done, because they are not profitable, and the whole objective of capitalism is profit. In things that serve the common interest or the overall health of the people in our society, we have no problem “socializing” them, but that has been slowly eroded over the years by those who want to move further and further towards a completely free market.

But the problem is, there is another continuum about how much control government exercizes over your day to day life…that continuum runs from authoritarianism on the far right (do what the government says) to anarachism on the far left (do whatever the hell you want). And the problem is, many of the purely socialist economies, by virtue of the fact that all is government controlled, come along with purely authoritarian dictatorships, as the government seeks to not only control finance, but thought and free expression.

So, because Socialism in it’s furthermost left point as used under societies that we have observed has gone hand in hand with authoritarianism, and people hear the word “Socialism” it conjures up images of being less free. It can then be used as a wedge, you invoke the spectre of the red menace and tell people that the government is going to take all your money and tell you how it’s going to be spent.

But essentially, Obama’s tax plan is basically to roll back to what Clinton had…and no one thinks we were a socialist/communist nation under Clinton, not seriously anyway. It’s about the connotation and not the actuality.

In my mind, and I think this is true of the majority of Americans, we should, as Americans be afforded certain inalienable rights…not just the rights to free expression and speech, religion, gun ownership, etc. But also economic rights…we should all be able to afford an education through college (Obama’s plan strengthens public school funding and provides tax credits for those willing to volunteer 100 hours of community service per year for college). We should be able to maintain our health (Obama’s plan makes sure we will all have access to affordable health care ON THE PRIVATE MARKET). We should all be able to have our financial needs met if we become too old or ill to work (Obama’s plan shores up Social Security and Medicare). These things aren’t rocket science, but we’ve constantly seen cuts to these programs, millions falling into the ranks of the uninsured, people falling through the cracks.

The image that John McCain has painted of Obama is one of a person who will give handouts to any lazy person who wants them at the expense of all us hardworking Americans. Essentially though, unless you’re making a quarter million dollars a year, your taxes won’t go up. After that they will go up modestly, but it will be enough to provide the things that strengthen our society. And the goal is not to give them out to the lazy, but to help out those who are every bit as hardworking as the rest of us, but who due to circumstances outside their control, can’t quite lift themselves up. It’s about hands up, not hands out. That’s Social Democracy…a Democratic system which looks out for the well being of its citizenry, not socialism which is collectivism that provides all with equal output regardless of input.

Knotmyday's avatar

Great summary, Dale. Every government is socialistic to an extent… Just how socialistic is a determinant of eventual authoritarian abuse of power.

Bri_L's avatar

As usual Dale, thanks for the great take!

Is it possible that in todays world it is time for an new type of government?

One that has yet to be defined.

We as a nation and as a world are facing problems of an economic, social, environmental and political nature the likes of which we have not seen before. How? By way of the speed it is happening. By way of the sheer number of people involved. By way of the rapidity it effects the global community. By way of the complexity of the elements involved.

Maybe it is time to stop trying to pigeon hole what is or isn’t happening into political nomenclature and start trying to figure out what will work in getting us out of this big mess.

laureth's avatar

The main barb I see being hurled at “socialism” is that it takes wealth away from those who earned or created it and gives it away for free to those who did not earn or create it, thereby allowing a kind of parasite class to suck away the lifeblood of the rich. What I think people don’t realize is that we haven’t had pure Capitalism in the U.S. for a long time, and if they’ve ever made a purchase at Wal*Mart, driven on a road, eaten junkfood, ridden Amtrack or used energy that came from one of America’s nuclear power plants, they’ve been on the receiving end of some kind of government subsidy. I haven’t heard any complaints about these projects taking from the rich and giving to the poor.

And if higher taxation (to pay for socially progressive projects) is supposed to squelch jobs and development, someone needs to explain that to Germany. With a very high personal tax rate, they’re also the economic powerhouse in Europe. Curious, that.

Zuma's avatar

@Knotmyday,
“Just how socialistic is a determinant of eventual authoritarian abuse of power.”

No, socialism is not a determinant of authoritarianism. Monarchies, oligarchies, banana republic dictatorships, feudalism, fascism and other forms of despotism can all be authoritarian without containing a single element of socialism.

Originally, when humankind was Nomadic, our societies tended to be egalitarian. But when people settled down, the founding families settled in the richest lands, and their poorer relations settled the periphery. Over time, wealth and power accrued to the center and political power became hereditary. Hence the determinants of authoritarianism are a history of authoritarianism. The modern reemergence of egalitarianism we know as democracy is the result of market economies spinning off a middle class. The middle class which wrests power away from the monarchy and the aristocracy and redistributes it across institutions that contain constitutional checks and balances that prevent power from becoming centralized again.

Attempts to graft socialism onto a society that has no markets, no middle class and no democratic institutions quickly devolves back into authoritarianism. For example, pre-revolutionary Russia didn’t have very well developed markets or a vibrant middle class. So, the communists had to institute a centrally planned economy that worked dismally. If it had had democratic institutions, the central planning regime would have been voted out, and you would have gotten a form of state capitalism like China, or a kind of democratic socialism like Sweden. In the absence of democratic institutions, the failures of central planning led to a restive population whose rebellion called for repressive measures, leading to a polarized society consisting of a massive proletariat presided over by a small party elite, employing virtually the same mechanisms of repression as the previous authoritarian society.

@dale,
Overall your discussion has been the best one so far. However, I take issue with your characterization of various kinds of economies as “left” and “right” on the grounds that this tends to oversimplify in a way that is misleading—such that someone could draw the conclusion that authoritarianism stems from the “degree” of socialism, rather than being a product of its own dynamic.

I think it is important to mention that Socialism arose from a critique of capitalism—and that critique still holds:

1. Market societies are inherently prone to boom and bust cycles;
2. Market societies are inherently prone to oligopoly and monopoly;
3. Capitalists can not be trusted to voluntarily regulate themselves, so market societies tend are inherently prone to pervasive organized crime;
4. The unrestrained rapacity of capitalists leads to a form of class warfare in which the rich get richer and the poor get poorer until the rich disenfranchise the poor.

Knotmyday's avatar

Monty, when the government has the final say on who is equal, there is a deevolution into authoritarianism, and eventual failure. I admit, socialism in its purest form looks great on paper, but the animal nature of the mass of humanity dictates a slow (or fast) degradation into despotism. In other words, someone always fucks it up. I wish it worked.
However, some form of democratic socialism is always fundamental to government- checked and balanced by a free market, and the regulation of the capitalistic tendencies of the human beast.

Zuma's avatar

@Knotmyday, when the government has the final say, there is no “deevolution,” no “eventual failure,” you are already in full-blown authoritarianism.

The “animal nature” of mass humanity can go either way, at any time, from either starting point. That’s not an argument against socialism, its an argument against any human system.

I don’t think we really disagree, its just that it is difficult enough to have a conversation about socialism without dwelling on the depressing frailties of human nature.

Knotmyday's avatar

Arr, that be true.

TheKNYHT's avatar

the U.S.S.R. was socialist (communistic socialism) as is China. They built a wall in East Germany to keep Soviet citizens from escaping; guess they didn’t know a ‘good’ thing when they saw it huh?
National Socialism was what Hitler’s Germany was all about… that turned out just MARV too eh?
I just don’t get what people have against Socialism! I mean what do you got to lose? Except freedom in almost all its forms, and your hard earned money, and you get all kinds of laws to follow, regulations, state monitored and controlled religion; ah, the good life!

oratio's avatar

@TheKNYHT
The Nordic countries and several other Union countries are built on Socialist Democracy. Socialism comes in many flavors. Your problem with National Socialism is with the National part. National Socialism and Communistic Socialism are two opposites

Socialism can be expressed in several ways. As long as you have a working democracy, socialism is a good way to do it

dalepetrie's avatar

@TheKNYHT – You need to look at the difference between Socialism and Authoritarianism…one is an economic concept, the other is about control of expression.

TheKNYHT's avatar

@oratio You have it right! National Socialism and Communistic Socialism are at opposite ends of the Socialistic spectrum! Personally however, I don’t think I would have liked living in Nazi Germany any more than in the U.S.S.R.
And the problem with Democratic Socialist governments is that they are very malleable and can change over night into something more nefarious.
However I do appreciate your keen insights oratio!
Actually, now that I think of it, I’d rather be a totally sovereign citizen: now to come up with some money to buy my own island where I can be KING! X D

oratio's avatar

@TheKNYHT Agreed. Let’s all be monarchs. =) I’d like one with palm trees.

Nullo's avatar

Socialism’s great. It’s just not easily compatible with large groups of people.

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