Euthanasia: pros and cons?

Pro: You’re dead.
Con: You’re dead.

I’m in favor of it.

Seeing that the youth are our future, and with the rising importance of Asia in the 21st century, overall I think it’s a good thing.

Oh snap, Chuck.

Chuck wins

lmao

omg AC, had to think for a while before I laughed xD

Currently, I believe Euthanasia (otherwise known as assisted suicide) is only legally available in Oregon state.

Pros:
-YOU get to control when/how you die (to an extent)
-you don’t have to put up with more pain than you want to
-opportunity to have family/friends around when you die, because, well, you plan it
-barbiturates are painless
-fewer hospital/home nursing bills (if you keep going, bills would pile up for your family)

Cons:
-Christians freak out (they call it “suicide”)
-legal liability/issues (where will you get the drugs, can someone else administer it?)
-fear (are you ready?)

Personally, I’m all for assisted suicide. Some diseases (like ALS, like what Morey had in Tuesdays with Morey) are untreatable and have VERY painful/uncomfortable deaths. Also, sometimes pain is not always physical…it can be emotional too. Some would rather die then to feel completely useless and unable to move or even talk. Euthanasia gives them control over their death and when it will happen. If they don’t want to keep living with an incurable, terminal disease, they shouldn’t have to.

With the proper guidance of a doctor, family, and (if wanted) spiritual advisers, a person can make the informed decision not to “give up” but to let go and not be in pain anymore.

Anyone who doesn’t like Euthanasia…well, they don’t have to do it.

I agree, if there is no other option. If death is eminent then go ahead.

I read an article a few years ago about how they deal with this in the Netherlands. (If any Dutch posters know this to be untrue, please correct me) The article said that the law had been passed that allowed the family of an elderly patient could make the decision if a patient was senile or otherwise unable to make the decision. That was a little chilling, but what me say “Whoa” was the statistics they quoted. 12 times as many women were euthenized as men when there was a surviving spouse. It seems that Dutch women would take care of their spouses until the end. Not so much for men.

Not an opinion on the topic. Just something to think about.

@galileogirl

That is a bit frightening….>< I hope that practice doesn’t come here.

If you’d like to know though, with euthanasia in Oregon (to the best of my knowledge) is not practiced this way. The dying person decides for himself, and despite having a health proxy (usually the spouse, who would speak for them when they are senile or unconsciousness), the health proxy can’t make the choice to perform the euthanasia.

I think it’s good if the dying person were to decide for themselves, ahead of time…it’s soooo legally and ethically risky to leave it to someone else.

Personally I fall on the No side except I might someday ask for DNR on my medical record and named my sister as the decider in case I am not able to function without technologial assistance.

However a person very close to me who had a fatal disease died by driving across railroad tracks and colliding with a train. The cause of death was listed as accidental but many of us thought it was probably suicide. I would rather that he had been allowed assisted suicide because I am sure it made a mark on the train engineer and the people involved in the collision scene.

If we don’t have the right to end our own lives, what rights do we have? This seems like one of the most basic things of all.

Euthanasia is not usually about ending my own life, but the lives of others gripped by unspeakable suffering and completely without hope of recovering.
Seeing such suffering in the critical care unit, I have become a supporter of one’s right to make choices for themselves and those they love.
Believe me, there are things worse than death.

@galileogirl

Even if you wouldn’t be okay with assisted suicide for your personal self (which is a valid choice and I respect that), I’m sure you’d be in support for others having the right to choose for themselves? Choice is always the best.

@cdwccrn

You’re totally right on that.

If I had something as horrific as ALS (think of it this way: your mind stays intact while you lose function of your body)...omigosh…I can barely imagine. I would rather die earlier when I am in control then to not have it, and just wait while my body withers away…

Huntington’s disease is another one to avoid.

@cdwccrn

Oh yeah that’s a nasty one.
I believe that’s a genetic one though…

It is genetic. And devastating.

@seekingwolf I guess you didn’t read my entire post about my friend who possibly commited suicide. I said asststed suicide was preferable to involving unwilling strangers. It also makes things clear to those left behind.

@galileogirl

I did read it, I just wanted to clarify things.

My Aunt lived 7 years with ALS. Her son, 8 years later, lived 2 years with ALS. (her ALS started in her legs, his started in his chest – usually a faster form of ALS)

My Aunt wanted to die, she wanted to end it before she became so incapacitated that she had no life. She was clear about it, but instead, she suffered. A lot. My cousin, 2 years. Well, that is an estimate. He knew, before the doctors did, what he had. He watched his mother and he knew what was killing him. Once he finally went for the diagnosis – usually, it take a little while for the diagnosis, but within a few months, he was diagnosed and going downhill, fast.

He wanted a choice, too.

I believe we should have the right to make this decision. I wonder, sometimes, if the people that are strongly against this have ever had to watch someone suffer and die from something like this, or other diseases. It’s horrible, for the person, for the family. The impact is tremendous. I had no problem with helping her, being a caregiver – it was hard, it wears you out, but at the end, seeing the suffering – my God, it never leaves your mind. She suffered. My cousin suffered. It doesn’t have to be that way.

I understand the doctor’s problem with this – it conflicts – so they say – with the oath, “Do no harm”; however, I ask, how is it not doing harm, to let someone suffer like that – isn’t that harm?

My aunt had a host of allergies and certain meds that could have relieved her pain, only made things worse…it was horrible.

@cak

oh what a horrible story >< It makes me even sadder that they wanted the choice, but weren’t able to get it and instead, they suffered. That’s so awful!

I think anyone who really opposes it probably hasn’t seen anyone suffer, and is following the doctor’s oath or the Bible a little too literally.

Honestly, I think a doctor, who sees suffering, and then looks at assisted suicide and says “no can do, I promised to do ‘no harm.’” People like that who take things too literally shouldn’t be doctors. Unfortunately, there are doctors like that…like mine. >< Even though I have PCOS and need birth control pills to treat the hormone problem, she won’t give them because I’m 18 and “may become sexually promiscuous.” wtf?

GAH don’t get me started with incompetent doctors who obviously don’t do the best thing for their patients…

On the flip side of things, I will say this about my father. The day he dies, his breathing was very labored, he was non-responsive and clearly struggling. His vitals were dropping. He was in full liver failure, had the massive stroke and many other complications. At the time they decided to give him morphine, he was at 81/36 and he received 2mg of morphine. Within an hour, my father had passed away. I know that 2mg isn’t the strongest dose, but it was enough to relax his breathing. Now, I know what was said about the dose of morphine and I watched what the dose did. There were plans to double the dose, if the next injection was needed. THAT was the exact wording that was used, “if the next injection was needed.” I’m not saying that they were helping, I’m not saying that there was a conscience decision by his doctors to do something – but I know what it did.

While it hurts like hell knowing he’s gone and I mean it’s a daily crushing pain – I’m grateful they gave him that shot. It truly was like he just went into the most peaceful sleep – far better fromt he struggle we were witnessing.

I know he could have still lingered; however, I also know that as a depressant on the system, it helped.

I’m for it if it helps eliminate those from the shallow end of the gene pool. this is humor, so don’t think I am a completely unfeeling bastard.

@cak

2 mg? Wow, that’s not a lot at all. I typically use 5 mg with patients who have pain, but nothing like what your uncle had.

What’s interesting about morphine is that they did this study on it…they had given some to hospice patients who wanted it, but also studied other hospice patients who had refused it (for whatever reason). Both groups had cancer in roughly the same end stages. However, the time that it took for both groups to die was about the same. The only difference is that one group suffered, the other did not.
However, because morphine is often given to dying people and it puts them “to sleep” often breeds the misconception that morphine kills or actually speeds up the process, which is untrue. (not saying you think that, cak, because I know you don’t :))

I think morphine is a wonderful thing for hospices and I’m very grateful that we are lucky enough in the US to have access to it. I’ve seen many people die in pain in India and all they could have was an aspirin. We are truly fortunate.

Oh, by the time they decided the 2mg dose for dad, he was so small, the only part that looked remotely “full” on him, was the arm on his paralyzed side, fluids were collecting in his arm. Until the day they gave him the morphine, his vitals were strong, but prognosis was grim. Also, that day, his breathing was labored and early in the day, he was – what we thought was a response to pain – groaning loudly whenever the pressure cuffs on his legs activated. The morphine was given for two reasons, but knowing my dad the way he did things and knowing his medical issues, it relaxed him, but no, it didn’t “kill” him. I agree with you 100%!

Your post is very relevant to my comments on morphine, it won’t “end” things, it was done to relax him and yes, it’s a super low dose. (I forget the rate of breakdown in your system – it’s been a little while since I researched that, but isn’t morphine quickly burned through – in your body?) Clearly, they had plenty of room to give him more, but it was done for any pain or struggling with the breathing.

We look at it this way. My dad was a fighter. He would fight the wall, if he felt that he needed to really point something out. With that said, he also was a peaceful person. If he was calm, he was the most mellow person on the planet. The morphine mellowed and his body was able to do what it needed to do – it was not the morphine, but his body finished what it needed to finish.

I do think it’s important, like you, for people to know what morphine (especially in that low of a dose!) can do or can’t do. His body was done, pure and simple.

@cak

Oh that poor man :( Liver failure (or cancer) is very awful, especially the whole fluid situation. I am glad that he passed away peacefully.

You’re right, morphine is “burned up” very quickly. With morphine, there is a good risk of “breakthrough pain”. That’s why with morphine, many actively-dying patients are given it on a strict plan (example 5 mg every 2 hours) without end so that their pain will not come back. yes, they are in a constant state of sleep, but I think (and so do their families and often the dying themselves) that it’s better than being in constant pain.

Did you know it’s actually quite difficult to OD on morphine? I forget the actual statistic, but I know it’s a LOT. The most I’ve ever done was 20 mg/every 2 hours, but I know some need more. It depends on the person, the pain, the disease, and if they have any former drug use (some former drug users have a great tolerance to morphine and other painkillers because they’ve abused them!). It’s a weird thing.

Have you ever thought of doing hospice work? We could sure use more informed, caring volunteers like yourself! :)

I absolutely will do hospice work, once I am to handle life! I’m in my early cycles of chemo and still am a bit emotionally raw. I don’t know how much I could help, right now – I’d probably cry too much; however, it is something I would love to do. Hospice is wonderful and the work they do, touches families, sometimes I think more than they will ever know. Thank you – I take that as a high compliment!

Euthanasia used to be commonly known as “mercy killing” and had nothing to do with assisted suicide, which is much more recently invented practice. Mercy killing was and maybe still is a controversial question in medical settings. It is also what we do when we have our pets “put to sleep.” I don’t think we know which the questioner is asking about, assisted suicide or mercy killing.

@Jeruba: I’m basing my answer off his tags, the same thought occurred to me until I noticed he listed ‘suicide’. Unless he was being overly thorough I’m betting he meant assisted suicide.

@Jeruba

Same as monet, I saw the “suicide” tag and assumed it was assisted suicide.
I also felt it was assisted suicide because it’s still a controversial issue, but is probably a more viable option than Euthanasia. I don’t think Euthanasia will ever be legalized.

@Jeruba – I am taking it as assisted suicide, as well.

My father is very much into this debate (he goes to all these international conferences and so on), and we’ve talked about it extensively between us too. The main point is not as much ethical as it is legal.

What people fail to see is that, even though in theory we are talking about a situation where someone wants to die (usually because their pain is unbearable), in practice the legalisation of such an option would eventually lead in assisted murders, and not suicides.

In cases where the family or state could not afford to keep the patient alive, or might be looking forward to a nice little inheritance, or waiting for the patient’s organs to be donated, there would be either pressure or downright misinterpretation of the patient’s will.

And let us not forget that people who are in a position to clearly express their feelings, thoughts and opinions on the matter are usually not the ones who face that choice. Most terminal patients can barely speak.

So even though I agree with the ethics of euthanasia (and would take the responsibility of illegally assisting a loved one in such a case), I would be really scared to see it legalised.

@seekingwolf – it’s also available in the Netherlands and in a few more countries as well, I believe. And I can think of at least one case where euthanasia would be definitely justified (Chantal Sébire), so I’m for it, if properly implemented.

@galileogirl – I looked it up on the Dutch Wikipedia, and it said that a law was instated on April 1st 2002 that said that euthanasia was not illegal if the involved doctor:

* was convinced that it was a voluntary and well-considered request by the patient,
* was convinced the patient was suffering unbearably without hope of recovery,
* informed the patient about his status and what he can expect of the future,
* came to an agreement with the patient that no other reasonable solution was available for his situation,
* consulted at least one other, independent doctor who has seen the patient and has, in writing, provided his judgement on the demands on accuracy referred to in this and the previous points,
* performed the euthanasia in a medically-responsible way.

Also, everybody of at least sixteen years of age can put together a euthanasia-statement which, in case this person might deteriorate to a state where he would not be able to communicate his desires, allows the doctor to honour the patient’s request.

So, no family involved in the Netherlands. I’d say these are quite solid laws. :)

@Jack79, I don’t think it ever can be made legal for exactly the reason you say. At the same time, I believe that it does happen, much more often than we realize, quietly, compassionately, and discreetly, and I say bless those medical practitioners who have the moral courage. I hope they will also always have wise judgment in equal measure to their power, which is a godlike power over life and death.

my point exactly.

Vincent, I absolutely agree with the Dutch law in theory. It is well-thought of and carefully worded. The problem is that I’ve lived in countries such as Greece, where such a law would mean you just have to bribe the doctor to kill off your grandma and then do the paperwork, giving the second doctor a cut. And Greece is actually a very moral and well-organised country compared to many others around the world. And let us not forget that it was where the ethical side of this debate was started 2500 years ago.

@Jack79 – but that’s not a problem of the law but of the people. You could do that without such an abortion law as well.

Abortion law??

I agree. And I know what you mean about the abortion law. In the Hippocratic Oath, abortion and euthanasia are mentioned together (the physician swearing to oppose both).

I think the abortion debate in the US involves two extreme positions, one saying that abortion is a mortal sin and should never happen, even if the child is the Antichrist and the whole city is about to explode, and the other that a woman can just do whatever she likes without moral implications, such as killing her own kids and feeding them to her cats. I think there are more healthy views somewhere in the middle. I am quite against abortion (a lot more than my current gf for example), but at the same time can understand that there are some exceptions where there is no other choice.

btw my own daughter was born with a malfunction which the doctors luckily missed (she was operated a few days later and is 100% healthy now). I hate to think what would have happened had they noticed it. But if something like that does happen in the future, I will insist on keeping the child.

Ok but all this is off topic now. Sorry.

@Jeruba – oops! At least it spurred another discussion :P

@Jack79 – I took a look at the Dutch abortion law, and I’m a bit disappointed. In principle, abortion is illegal but the performing doctor will be exempted from punishment if it concerns an emergency situation. Here, emergency situation isn’t really defined, because the situations would vary too much. On one hand, this is reasonable, on the other hand might this allow abortion in cases where, even though the parents might not be able/willing to take care of the kid, e.g. adoption would be a solution.

Also, for an abortion to be allowed, the mother has to decide, but the doctor has to decide whether the mother can be trusted to decide – thus, neither of them can force the other to do something.

So basically, even though I don’t really find our current abortion laws satisfactory, I’d rather have them than no laws at all – e.g. you cannot expect a potential mother to have to suffer physical complications to have a baby.

But, anyway, I meant euthanasia law above, of course ;-)

You’re in control of nothing

@galileogirl playing devil’s advocate, maybe men are more compassionate and don’t want their incapacitated spouse to suffer while women don’t want to let their husbands off so easily.

of course, the above is no more the right answer than i think your response provided…it is an interesting phenomenon nonetheless.

My mother was put on a ventilator at about 12 noon on a Tuesday. She was in and out of consciousness and did not want to be kept alive by machines. The doctors said that there was very little chance for recovery so on Thursday morning we removed the breathing tube and stopped the medications that were keeping her stable. She lost consciousness a few hours later and she did not die until Saturday morning, about 40 hours after treatment was stopped. My mom suffered for 4 days wanting to die. We sat with her, suffered with her the whole time. The last 2 days were excruciating. We knew she was going to die. She wanted to die; she expressed it specifically to my father and myself.

On Friday my dad started talking about how cruel this all was. Euthanasia is respectful of life, the life of the person dying and the lives of the people left behind. Prolonging suffering while simultaneously purporting to have reverence for life is not only hypocritical, but sadistic.

Health Care Law was one of my concentration areas in lawschool and Euthanasia came up. We looked at the way Oregon handled this situation and it is very specific- the person has to have a terminal disease and death expected i think in 6 months or less, has 2 go and see two psychiatrists who have certify that they know what they are doing and are competent to make the decision. only after that long process if the person given I want to say 2 prescriptions and from what I recally they take them themselves aren’t administered by a doctor. No one can decide for you it has to be the dying person. I have seen people dying from ALS, from breast cancer and it is very painful to watch. I don’t think this is a decision someone can make for someone else. I think it has to be the terminally ill person that makes the decision.

I had my Mom’s Power of Medical Attorney, and I instructed the doctors to take her off the machines. (it was a lot more complicated than that, and I had to be pushed to do this by my Mom’s wishes)
I still have nightmares about it, and I don’t know how I would cope if I also had to instruct the doctors to put poisons into her to finish it.

I would have done it myself.

@tinyfaery I would have too.

There was a woman that I knew that was in her late 30s and had breast cancer- she’d had her surgery and done her radiation and chemo and had a mammo that was clean and showed she was cancer free. 6 months later she found something- she had metastaric breast cancer that spread through her lymphatic system, into her brain and bones. it took her months to die and her breasts were these cancerous masses that had these open wounds that wouldn’t heal. She was in so much pain- the drugs only slightly relieved the excruciating pain. would you rather die with dignity or last months in excrutiating pain that no human being should have to feel? I realize that this is a highly personal decision but wouldn’t condemn any person for their decision.