Getting to know flutherers (Pt.1) - will you tell me a bit about your relationship to religion?

this stuff just freaks me out

Chere Simone, Try to keep the text shorter (particularly since this is Part one) and use full sentences and breaks to make it more readable.

@gailcalled

oh this isn’t part 1 to the religion thing
it’s just getting to know flutherers, part 1
next question will deal with something else and will prob have a lot less details
but i see what you’re saying
breaks would be good

We broke up long ago.

I think religion is both fascinating and appalling.

I was raised a little bit Jewish. I assumed that God existed because everyone said so, including my parents (well, my mom) and my rabbi and society at large, including the dollar bills.

When I was still a kid, I remember actually paying attention to John Lennon’s “Imagine” for the first time—_and no religion too_—it had never occurred to me to question the value of religion before that.

Then, before my bar Mitzvah I actually sat down and read parts of the Bible in English. and realized that it is largely mythological nonsense.

In college, I majored in religious studies. I studied the Bible as well as Hindu mythology and the Quran. I think religion is probably the most fascinating aspect of human history. But I also believe the Bible and the Quran are barbaric, outdated books that have no place in our moral discourse, which invalidates any religions based on them.

My hostility to religion really coalesced when evangelicals basically won the election for George W. Bush. I saw how easy it was to dupe these people into voting for you simply by parroting religious nonsense, and how harmful their beliefs were to the public good. I want to challenge as many religious people about their beliefs as I can (without being rude), because I think it’s time to move on as a species.

@AstroChuck
lol
nice

I’m a Christian, but that’s a misnomer. I don’t judge in the manner most of my Christian peers do, instead I stand as an example of God’s love, if you see my example and it moves you I am there to teach and guide you. On the other hand, if you do not want to follow God, I won’t force you to.

I was raised by Christian parents. I went to church on Sunday and attended bible study after services, I went to Wednesday bible study and I sang in the choir. Somewhere about 12 or 13 I just started questioning. I learned a lot about many religions, the Abrahamic and eastern religions, even paganism and Yoruba. But, really I am a non-believer. The myths are fascinating, dramatic characters, mythical beasts and moral dilemmas make for great drama. But none of it is true.

Why do some old Flutherites police so much little details? I for one, enjoyed reading the full text, it was necessary use of space. Anyway…
—-

Back to the question: I was born into a Jehovah’s Witness family. My life until I was 16 consisted of attending three times a week to the meetings and preaching on the weekend. A lot of emphasis was placed on religion, as well as power. My parents were more concerned with my spirituality than with my school progress.

As I grew up, and fell in love, I saw how conveniently was religion used to control my life and my relationships. I rebelled and stopped going. Some events in my life, and the contact with the outside world through the Internet have led me to lose faith all together in God. I now consider myself an agnostic and had to deal with shattered-faith syndrome, as I no longer find it easy to find meaning in life.

I can see now why some people hang on to their faith so strongly, when it’s gone the void needs to be filled in some way (positively, I would hope).

I still need to figure out some things and get over some of the teachings instilled from so early in childhood. I’m pretty hostile towards religion altogether today.

Today, I see how damaged our family has been because of religion. Once we left our old beliefs, our parents could not use anything to help us grow. All power was given to religion and we have rebelled against it. It led to separation, we’re together, but have very little in common. I wish they my parents would have used more than one mean to raise us. Although to their credit, despite all that’s been said, we turned out pretty good.

I was raised as a fundamentalist Christian and had all my beliefs handed to me on a plate from when I was in diapers. I tried to make that work through my teens, especially since my entire social world hung from it. In my early twenties that all just crumpled under the weight of so much accumulated doubt, and I discovered for the first time in my life the joy of unbridled questioning and self-guided exploration. Quite a heady experience.

Many years later I started practicing Zen. I appreciated the structured discipline it brought to my exploration, without imposing some version of “truth” upon me. Instead of stifling my questioning, it allowed me to harness it and focus it, turning it into a powerful instrument. I’ve been at it for about 19 years now.

I was raised Catholic. I remember from an early age being bored silly in church. My mom kept me quiet with books- but only Bible story books in church. I was an animal-crazy child, and so my favorite story was Noah’s Ark. But…how did they keep all those animals alive? How did they feed them? How did the koalas get to Australia and the emperor penguins to Antarctica?

And thus the doubt started. Sometime in high school, I read Bertrand Russell’s Why I Am Not a Christian and the doubt solidified.

My best college friends were, for the most part, atheists and I remember some pretty good philosophical discussions on the topic.

Now, twenty-five years after college, I am a committed atheist. Not only does belief based on faith alone fail to make logical sense to me, I am appalled at the atrocities committed in the names of so many religions.

If there is a spiritual sense to me, it is in how I can connect with the universe that is all around me, and how I can be a part of it. There is more awe and grandeur in an old-growth forest than in any temple.

from about 2nd to 5th grade, i went to church once or twice a week, every week. the church i went to was pretty cool, even in retrospect – the pastors were funny and genuine, and the church was rather accepting, and had a lighthearted vibe to it, without going against its morals, etc.

anyway, my family stopped going as often when my mum got a more time consuming job, but in the meantime, when i started middle school, i started questioning why i believed so strongly in all of this religious stuff, and i realized that i really didn’t. i also started to see a lot of the discrimination that the vast majority of super-religious folks placed on others (though i certainly know now that that is just a generalization), and i really started to resent religion.

now, i’ve pretty much come to terms with religion in general. i have respect for those who (respectfully!) believe in their god (or whatever). i think, who knows, perhaps there is some sort of higher force – why not? but i don’t see the importance in naming it. i do what i think is right by my own morals, and not by a set of morals prescribed by people i’ve never met, who have been dead for millions of years, and claim that they are preaching ‘god’s will’. who’s backing up their claim? has ‘God’ put a stamp of authenticity on the cover of the Bible? at best i am agnostic, but i find religion incredibly interesting, just definitely not for me. i simply believe what i believe (which is quite abstract), and do as i see right. i accept people who accept others. that’s all really. i don’t think you can really hope to do much else in life, besides live well and honestly, and treat others respectfully.

and if God sees that as reason enough to send me to Hell – if he/the afterlife exists – then what can ya do? i’m not about to say i believe in God just so i don’t face the consequences.

I was raised Catholic. I received all of the sacraments as scheduled, went to Mass, prayed the Rosary, and did all the things I was supposed to do to be a good Catholic. I believed everything I was told and had no reason to doubt God.

When I was 11 my mom got sick, very sick. She promised me that if I prayed and prayed and always remembered to thank God in advance, He would answer my prayers and she would be healed. Within a year she was dead, leaving my (ill-equipped) father alone to raise myself and my five brothers and sisters, ranging in age from 15 to 2. I kept going to church for a couple years after that but I was just going through the motions and finally I stopped all together.

Even though I stopped going to church I couldn’t let go of the need for spirituality in my life. I literally spent the next 20 years searching for a faith that had real meaning to me. I tried to be an atheist but I couldn’t let go of my belief that nothing plus nothing equals nothing, that something had to have set all of the scientific processes that shaped the world into motion. I called that something God and I wanted to figure out how He fit into my life. I tried lots of Protestant religions, Taoism, Buddhism, Unity, Unitarian, and went back to Mass off and on through the years but nothing felt right or rang true.

Last spring I decided to return to college. I have no idea why but one Sunday night I was lying in bed and decided I was going to ask a certain classmate if he believed in God. I didn’t know this guy at all, we had maybe spoken ten words to each other but for some reason I needed to ask him this question. I summoned up the nerve and asked him. He stopped what he was doing, took my hands in his, looked me straight in the eye and said “yes, I do.” I have been Baha’i’ ever since.

I am an atheist.

To put it frankly, I do not believe that people should live their life so that they can get a reward after life, or that anyone that does something god condones should have to suffer eternal damnation for it.

Born into a family of hypocritical and/or ignorant Catholics who didn’t have a clue what they were talking about with regard to religion.

Decided to become an alter boy so I could learn more from the source. After three years as an alter boy, I clearly saw where the hypocricy and ignorance came from.

By the time I received “confirmation” I realized the entire religion was tainted by selfishness, and a need to control others.

Spent about twenty years as a “recovering Catholic”, basically apathetic towards religion.

Four years ago I began reading and listening to religious scholars and historians. Did research and determined I was an agnostic.

I find the history and sociology of religion fascinating. I adore churches as examples of architecture.

I have no use for religion as an organizing principal or moral compass in my life. I view it as a relic of history, breathing its last breath in an ever-evolving society. I suspect that at least Catholicism will soon go the way of Greek and Roman mythology.

They are dinosaurs and just don’t know it yet.

I was raised Catholic, my grandfather on my mom’s side was a former Episcopal minister, but my mom converted to Catholicism to marry my dad. Went to church, was an alter boy and occasional sacristan.

At some point, I started to sense a lot of hypocrisy that didn’t match up with my understanding of the central teachings of the faith. I moved out on my own and stopped going to church with my folks. Spent 15-ish years not really thinking about religion, but i could never remove spirituality from my life. I felt something that so far hasn’t been explained by science and I knew there was an interconnectedness and a universality that I could see reflections of everywhere.

I read books on religion, spirituality, mysticism and anything else that struck me. I hiked in the woods, loved nature and communed with my friends while dancing at night. I took some psychic classes to see if that would explain my experiences and one day last year was talking to a friend who had recently started going to church. She told me that it was the occult and I ended up writing a pretty long email to her about my thoughts on God, religion and spirituality.

I don’t think that God would ignore or turn away every other faithful person on the planet just because their spiritual redemption was achieved by following the path of Buddha or Krishna or Allah or even John Lennon or Oprah. No matter how many names you give it, God is an all encompassing force that is there for everyone and everyone has the choice of following God’s path or wandering in the desert bouncing from temptation to temptation.

When you follow the path of God (heal and protect the community around you, love & respect something greater than yourself, and resist temptation), you are saved.

Hell is only the spiritual emptyness that is caused by wandering off the path.

Shortly after that, a friend of mine asked me if I would like to start going to the Baha’i fireside discussions. I started going and after a few meetings I had not found anything that contradicted my personal beliefs and was amazed at how clearly my thoughts were written out 100+ years earlier. I became a Baha’i last summer and am now a part of the local spiritual assembly and the fireside teaching team.

I found Fluther about the same time and it has been a great place for me to learn more and explore the veracity of the Baha’i writings. Not that I come here for that, but I have had many conversations here that reaffirm my faith and force me to really think about the issues from many different perspectives, including the atheistic. It has been a great way to expand my worldview.

I’m an imperfect follower of “The Beatitudes”.

Atheist. I let my culture, experience and principles guide my morality. I believe in karma. Just because I am an atheist doesn’t mean I think religion is bad. In fact, I think religion is needed by many people. It’s a way to provide hope, and that’s good. When it gets bad is when some people take it too literally or too far. Like all things, religion must progress with time. And if something a religion says doesn’t match what common sense would dictate, then you should have enough free will to make your own decision.

Also, I like learning about a person’s religion, but on my own terms and if I ask Qs. Not by people preaching or knocking on my door. People trying to convert me are in for a rude awakening. I do favor the non converting religions over the converting ones for this reason alone.

I’m a skeptic first, and an atheist second. I went from Baptist Christian (and avoided being baptised somehow) through most every other religion to where I am now. Religion works for some folks, but I don’t find it has any meaning for me. In fact, I created my own fake religion Evelynism, to counter the proselytizers that seem to show up on my doorstep to ask me if I’ve found Jesus. I simply got tired of replying, “Yeah, he was behind the couch the whole time” and decided to try and beat them at their own game by creating a religion that actually makes sense and is all about stuff that is fun.

So I am an atheist that is a member of the Orgasmic Church of Evelyn.

I was raised Christian, but by the time I was in my teens I was an agnostic. I have occasionally been certain of God’s existence, and other times just as certain that there is no god. In general, my feeling about religion is that they are all man-made constructs. Whether God exists or not, I have no need of an organized religion. My first husband was a cultural Jew, but not a religious one. We’ve raised our three children on the history and traditions of both our religions, but have also taught them about many others and are quick to point out that none of us really knows. These days I am a confirmed agnostic, with atheistic leanings.

Religion and I aren’t speaking. He pissed me off with his stupid shit one too many times.

My story is very much like Harp’s, except that in between kicking the dust of evangelical Christianity off my heels and sitting down on my first zafu there was a gap of about thirty years during which a simple “I do still believe in God” evolved into “I don’t really know” and at length the realization that I am actually an atheist. These days I say so without apology.

I use my personal history and the continuing faith of my family to remind myself that it is possible to be an intelligent, well-educated person and still believe that stuff. Otherwise I would forget.

I am in no way disturbed by your history and practices and don’t find it weird or freaky at all, even though that’s not my path. You will find many here who think as you do and many others who are self-declared atheists, as well as subscribers to other religions. There is also a very strong Christian presence, among whom there are some kind, courteous, and respectful people whose views are always worth hearing and who practice more than they preach.

I am an observant Jew and an atheist.

@Qingu I also studied Christianity and Islam, though not formally in college like you did, but in churches and masjids. I also grew up believing because everyone else did. Even though I always had serious questions about some of it, I attributed every good thing in my life to Gawd, and every bad thing to Satan or my own lack of faith. I decided on my own that Islam was complete horse shit, but I still retreated to the Christ of my youth. When encountered Atheists on the interwebs I thought they were an obnoxious bunch and I couldn’t understand why they were so anti-religion. I thought, “Why do you care if I choose to believe?” Eventually I started to actually listen and consider what they had to say. I started looking at the bible critically. I started to realize that the entire thing was just a bunch of ridiculous nonsense. I suddenly understood why atheists were so vehemently against Christianity. I went to war with the theists with my newfound clarity of thought. I became one of those atheists that I used to decry. Now, I just try to point out the fallacy of the bible and the qu’ran to those who will listen and let them figure it out on their own.

I was born into a Catholic household and went to Catholic schools through High School. I am Pagan though and have been since I was 7, much to the chagrin of the Nuns but surprisingly, my Mom was fine with it. I love studying religions and when I went to college was an Anthropology/Religious Studies double major with a minor in History. My emphasis was on ecstatic experiences in religions and their societies.

Recovered Catholic. I think many religions (especially Christian-based) are distortions of our “pure” spirituality designed to channel our innate connection with our creator or the creative force through self-appointed bodies of authority. Possibly (and worse) I think there’s elements Satanism embedded in the trappings and ritual of our religions without our immediate knowledge. So, my point in all that is that the meek and the righteous may unwittingly be turning over their intentions to elements of evil.

I like Buddhism and the words of the Dalai Lama in terms of our choice every moment to add love or fear/hate to the equation. Furthermore, I think it basically boils down to that we emanate love or fear/hate and that creates the world around us. I vibrate a lot of fear and hate at the moment and am trying to flip the switch.

@teirem1 I find that the more education a person acquires, the less likely they are to be christian or muslim.

@The_unconservative_one I completely agree.

@teirem1 what is ecstatic experiences in religion? Orgasming while praying?

Interesting actually, as many of the descriptions made by people experiencing religious ecstatic experiences (including a bunch of medieval religious mystics) whether they are Sufi, Christian, or whatever sound as if they are describing a deep relationship with a lover and physical orgasm as they experience a “merging with” or a “touch by” their god.

@kevbo A worthy goal, if I’ve ever heard one. Knowing you, I think you will succeed at flipping that switch. :)

I belong to a religion that has no dogma, no canon, and no religious authorities. I can not tell you its name, but I can describe it.

I was born into a family that had very little in the way of religious experience. My mother was born a Jew, but converted to Episcopalianism because, as she said, “that’s where all her friends were on Sunday.” Her mother was happy, because she was a big believer in assimilation, and she dearly wanted to be able to join the yacht club (which kept out Jews at the time).

My father’s parents were another story. They belonged to a Northern Baptist church, and they were founding members of the congregation. Later on, when I asked my father about it, he said he didn’t think his father was all that into religion, but his mother sure was.

When we would visit them on the weekends, we’d (me and my siblings) have to go to church, which we all found to be a boring and meaningless experience. At some point, my grandparents stopped insisting on it. It was wonderful to have a whole day to play in!

Only once did we try, as a family, to find religion. This happened after the girl next door (I think she and I were 8 at the time), asked what religion we were. When told we didn’t do anything, she was shocked, and told us we should go to church. We went to ask our parents why we didn’t go to church, and they said that we should try it out. I think we went three times, at most, and let it be, after that.

At an early age, I found that religious stories seemed very unlikely, and the notion of a god didn’t make much sense. So, when our assignment in English class was to write a paper about existentialism, I wrote the paper, and concluded that I was an atheist. We were in England at the time, and were attending a school where we had to go to a Church of England religious service every morning. That’s what happens in a country with a state-sponsored religion.

I was very proud that, as an American, I earned the highest mark in the class for that paper. Of course, the master wrote in his comments that he thought I was too young to make such a decision. I haven’t looked back, since.

However, not too long after that, while I was still in high school, I started gaining an interest in mysticism. I wanted to have these out-of-body experiences, and the sense of becoming “one with the universe,” and other experiences of that ilk.

I read Carlos Castaneda and Herman Hesse and “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.” I experimented with mushrooms (but not LSD). However, when I did get what I wanted, it didn’t come from any of that. It came from a place I never expected—something I had been enjoying all my life, but had no clue of its power.

I’m a musician—trumpet, flugelhorn, djembe, recorder, dijeridu, and a few more (but not the shawm), and I love dance. What I found was a workshop that could reliably deliver this numinous experience, and there was no bullshit attached to it. No claims about a god. No teachings. It was mystical experience, pure and simple.

And it’s amazing how simple it is. The key: listen to each other. Pay attention. There is no need to hog the center of attention. If you do that, you’ll find the center is elsewhere and you are lost. Give, give, give. If you give space to others, you will get all the space you need. If you try to take space for yourself, there is no space for anyone.

I started dancing, and danced for years. I had some amazing experiences that were better than any hallucination. I was transported around the world, maybe even the universe, all while staying physically on one dance floor.

After a car accident, which hurt my back, I couldn’t dance. I started playing with the band, and when I got healthy enough to dance, I stayed with the band, anyway. The music is all improvisational. The only thing we have to go on is the structure the leader is giving to the dancers. The dancers interpret the instructions however they want, influenced by the music. The musicians see the dancers move, and we pick up what they are “saying” as if it were a score.

We build a movement vocabulary for the dancers throughout the first half of the workshop. Or rather, they build it for themselves. It’s always different. Every week, different. Once the movement vocabulary has been established, we move into increasingly complex structures that usually culminate with the most amazing choreography you’ve ever seen. It’s stunning, and it feels so complete, because at the time it happens, everyone in the room it totally in tune with everyone else. We really are “one.”

Of course, that kind of intensity can’t last, and these moments usually last between five and ten minutes. Afterwords, we have a final structure that allows people to cool down from that intensity, and prepares them for reentry into the real world.

That’s my religion! It is numinous and real at the same time. It brings people together literally, metaphorically, and spiritually. It teaches us skills that are useful in the real world—skills with respect to interacting with people, and improvisation. Skills that can be used in business, on the playground, in Congress…. even fluther!

Unfortunately, it only exists in one city on the earth, and I can’t tell you where it happens or what its name is. If you find it on your own, consider yourself lucky.

@daloon You should seriously look into expanding your ‘religion’ to other places. You’ve always wanted to change the world, right? This may be just the way to do it! :)

Yeah, record some music for us.
not sure that’s what L meant, but i still wanna hear some dalooniriedoo

I look at religion with envy, because it is something I will never experience. From my earliest memories, I have been an atheist. I suppose I am not wired in the correct manner to experience god. Or the human soul.

I feel as if I was born blind, or crippled in some way, when I l see the joy most find in a higher power. There are very few prices I wouldn’t meet to experience it. I feel like the kid in the wheelchair watching the normal kids on the playground have fun on the equipment.

At the same time, I know without a doubt that I am right, and my INTP brain takes great joy in that.

@fireside: interesting you should ask that. We rarely record the music, and even when someone does, they don’t often give me a CD. Wait. I do have one. I wonder if I can find it.

I’ve come to rationalize the lack of recording by thinking about the ephemeral nature of most experience. Most of our lives are not recorded. Of course, that is changing, what with the ubiquity of videocameras, and other, easily accessible recording equipment. Just last night I was helping my daughter get her webcam up. She, of course, is always the last one in her group to have any technology at all. iPod, cell phone, computer, webcam. Sigh. We are such failures as parents (that was irony).

Still, if you record everything, you have to spend a lifetime watching it, so what’s the point? You can’t live your life twice, I don’t think. Therefore, by not recording, we free up more time to live our lives the first time. Notwithstanding the fact that music can be a soundtrack for other activities, so we can multitask.

On the other hand, this music is for one purpose, on one night, for one specific group of individuals. It becomes irrelevant after that (and when you listen to the way the music is interupted by instructions to the dancers, you’ll get an idea of what I mean). Anyway, if I remember, I’ll try to locate this, and then either put it up on USendIt, or maybe someone else can host it in a more permanent way. (Can you put it up on facebook? I seem to recall you have to swear you have the rights to do it, and that requires the use of a real name).

I’m an atheist & Carlin pretty much sums up exactly how I’ve always felt about the topic.

@daloon – I can probably find a way to get it up on my server if you send it to me.
Completely agree, though, that the experience is far removed when listening to a recording.

I was raised as a reform Jew and have joined Synagogues from time to time and been relatively active. Now I consider myself a secular Jew who enjoys some of the customs and finds solace in some of the prayers and rituals.

I was profoundly touched by the meeting for worship developed by the Society of Friends (Quakers). When I worked at a Quaker school, I particularly loved going to meeting with 400 students every Thurs. for a period. One sits quietly for most of the time and feels part of the community or the collective unconscious.

Occasionally, someone (student or faculty) would rise and speak briefly and ex temp
about a matter related to faith and practice.

This experience shaped the lives of my children and step-children.

@gailcalled I attended a Quaker school. I also enjoyed the Friends’ meetings.

@The_unconservative_one: One of the ones in Phila? I was at Germantown Friends.

@Jesus_Ezekial_Jesus, I’d have to question your belief in “the joy most find in a higher power.” The number of atheists in the U.S. is large and growing, and the percentage of those who declare “no religion” is significant, something like 16%. I think the numbers are higher in Canada.

Still, the remainder isn’t “most,” is it?

However, if you polled those who do claim to follow a religious practice and asked them whether they find joy in it, I sincerely doubt that the majority would say yes. Some may find comfort in it, but they would never go so far as to claim “joy.” For many, religion is a matter of (dreary) habit or duty; for many others it is followed out of guilt, more toward families and their expectations than toward a higher power; and for still others it is a pain and a burden. For some it is a source of nonstop inner conflict as they find themselves unable to resolve their doubts or reconcile dogmatic nonsense with the convictions of their own higher (mental) powers.

So the enviable (by your standards) may actually be few. And of those, a still smaller number would truly be devoid of joy without their “higher power”; some would find it without religion. (And there are many who do!—another topic entirely.)

So there may indeed be some who are experiencing something you’ve never known. I’d lay you odds that a goodly number of those are ready at a moment’s notice to jump in and tell you how you can have it too, because for them a cornerstone of their faith is the belief that anyone with a willing heart can have what they have. But I assure you that this number would not be “most” of the population.

@Jeruba – “However, if you polled those who do claim to follow a religious practice and asked them whether they find joy in it, I sincerely doubt that the majority would say yes.”

I’m glad to count myself as one of the joyful.
But I rejected religion until I found one that did work for me in a positive way.

@fireside, I know that there are some, and I have confidence in their sincerity. That’s why I was careful in how I worded my comments. But I think you would also agree, would you not, that this flutherer is not vastly outnumbered by “most” of the population in the matter of finding joy in religion?

Oh, I would definitely agree.

@gailcalled I went to Penn Charter

@The unconservative one: See PM. Our house on Coulter St. abutted the WPC tennis courts.

I’m currently doing a Beatrice Kiddo impersonation, only instead of questing to kill bill and his followers, I’m out to kill gawd and his acolytes

@HarmonyAlexandria
YAY! you’re here!
woot

No. I will only tell you that my relationship to my beliefs are purely my own, private thing. They are no one else’s business. I don’t like share the dearest secrets of my bedroom or my body; why would I want to share the dearest secrets of my being? I view them similarly.

I suppose I could have just skipped the question, but I felt my lack of wanting to share that aspect of the information is just as much a characteristic of what I believe as the things other posters have said.

@Amoebic
to each their own
seems a bit too guarded for my taste

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I thought that as well.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I’m not sure how I can give you an answer that you would be satisfied with, then. Despite the influence that organized religion will have on my future, my beliefs will be only my own, and separate from that. As I make my bed, so must I lie in it, but at least I can take with me something entirely personal and private as a comfort?

Now that it’s not 4am, and I’m no longer faced with navel-gazing, I would rather that I’d never posted the comment above in the first place. Sometimes it’s better to ignore the can of worms than be judged for it.

@Amoebic
i wasn’t judging
just responding