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• December 4th, 2008

  If God cannot be in the presence of sin and the Holy Spirit being apart of the Trinity is God. How can the Holy Spirit be in us who are sinners?

  I’m sorry for being so late in this discussion, but I just came across it now while searching opinions and scripture on a similar question. Just so everyone is aware and need not reply with unrelated clarifications, I’m coming from a very explicit set of views, all of which I believe are pertinent to the essence of this question, and without which, I would imagine, this question would be impossible to answer effectively. Please bare in mind that I am not here to argue my view points, but only attempt a fuller answer to the above based on these viewpoints. So if you do not have similar viewpoints to those below, please consider the question still unanswered to your satisfaction and no need to reply with rebuttal. Thanks for understanding. Now for the viewpoints, around which we need to understand the nature of God, Man and Sin: a) That there is a God. b) That all of the Old and New Testament scriptures are God’s infallible and inspired Word, intended by God for everyone and anyone who seeks after truth to study and learn the true nature of things, and thus, that God desires for us as His creation to seek Him out. c) That God’s nature is both complex and far exceeds my ability to reason out His makeup – that scripture implies the idea of Trinity, regardless of my ability to understand it. d) That the Word of God has both implicit and explicit references to the only One, True God – being in substance made up of three discrete, distinct parts, together of which define the whole nature of God. Though in our limited understanding these parts could be referred to as simply parts, facets, characters, attributes, representations or sides of God, Scripture always refers to them directly with personal pronouns and attributes implying personages. So we can summarize them best as “three separate persons who collectively make up the entire and complete divinity of God”. Note, however, that Scripture is explicit about the metaphysical makeup of each of the individual personages, as well as the purposes and character of each. One of the most significant examples of this is the Scripture that infers that all three personages were present before time and at the dawn of all creation. d) That the first person in the Trinity is the Father, being that personage that dwells in the Heavens and “oversees all things”, who created angels and all existence prior to this World and mankind, and from whom the other two personages receive their respective praise and purpose. e) That the second person in the Trinity is the Son, Christ Jesus, being that personage upon whom the Father has bestowed the greatest honour and praise among the three, and to whom the GodHead has imparted the pivotal role as the Saviour of the human race, through the ultimate sacrifice of shedding of the Son’s own blood on the cross, thus for all time eliminating the need to sacrifice other living creatures as recompense for the on-going sins of the people. f) That in the original writings of Scripture, all references to “Holy Spirit” or the word “Spirit” appearing capitalized, refers explicitly to the 3d person of the Godhead. Further, that the main purpose, function or nature of the Holy Spirit is to deal directly in the affairs of the created World and provide the mechanism of communication from God to the human race – both as a whole and individually. g) That the word “spirit” appearing uncapitalized in the original writings always refer to something other than the 3d person of the Godhead. This must be referring, then, to either a demonic or human spirit, or may be found in context to be referring to some other concept. h) That the nature of the human race in their fallen state (that is their natural inclination or disposition apart from external influences) is totally toward evil and sin. This would exclude the popular opinion that the human race on their own has equal potential for good and bad, or has to somehow balance the good and bad forces within themselves. There is no Scripture that directly supports this opinion, whereas there are countless explicit references to the concept that all humans, apart from Christ and Malchezedec of the Old Testament, have totally fallen from the potential for good without God’s direct intervention. And yet in spite of this fall, mankind on his own still possesses the one parodox that God has left within him – the ability for each and every human being to freely choose his ultimate destiny. Further, that the metaphysical nature of humans, differing significantly from the rest of creation, is that we consist of three distinct parts – namely body, soul and spirit – a makeup that clearly reveals the stamp of being “created in God’s image”. i) That the nature of sin is simply any activity or thought perpetuating from a motivation that does not have the eternal God as its primary focus. In a word, “pride”. It comes from the simple concept that God has come as a father to take care of us, but we do not want to be taken care. If we need fixing, we’ll do it ourselves. Since the Father knows that our nature has made us incapable of fixing ourselves, especially in the spiritual realm, He has set hard rules and boundaries around us, which every day we seek to tear down and escape from. Its not surprising then to find original sin beginning with the one created being who stood the most to gain from this concept of sin – Satan. Although being a created being (not having unlimited freedom to opose God), he wanted to do things his way. Was this sin, was it evil? Yes, simple and concise. Equally not surprising, it did not take long for the perfect human race to fall into Satan’s steps. Its noteworthy to mention here that the actual activity or thought is not material. It doesn’t matter whether the activity is truely of a good or evil nature. For example, the activity in question was not in and of itself a bad or evil thing – to eat of a fruit that would give you the knowledge of good and evil. In fact, in the end that very act was part of Gods overall plan, for us to have freedom of choice and to know the difference. However, it was imputed to them as sin because of the underlying motivation and the way they went about the whole affair. So, by the above defintion, the word sin in Scripture MAY be referring explicitly to an act or thought, but it will ALWAYS, in addition, carry with it the idea of ultimate evil – to do things opposite to God. Over the last 2000 years since the death and resurection of Christ, hundreds of theologians from many differring religous backgrouds and cultures, have conducted extensive research into the entire Word of God and have come to the same unmistakable conclusion regarding the purpose and role of the Holy Spirit. Please be patient, as we are getting close to being able to address the question put forth. The pupose of the Holy Spirit can be summarized by saying that He took upon himself 3 roles over time: 1. In Old Testament times, the Holy Spirit was always referenced as being “with” men – as an external force acting upon the will of men. Most often, intervention from God upon individuals or a group of people had to be carried out through a careful selection of individuals whom God used the Holy Spirit to prepare and to whom God sent the Holy Spirit as His personal representative. The Holy Spirit clearly never dwelt within individuals. However, the selected man at the time had to appeal to the human spirit within the people in order to carry out the message that God was giving them. 2. For the duration of time that Christ was on the earth, the Holy Spirit’s expressed purpose was to minister directly to Christ and those closest to Him. At this time the Holy Spirit did not intervene in anyone else’s life, since there was no need to do so – Christ was both sole messenger and the message from God for all people, although they did not understand this until the end of His earthly ministry. 3. Upon Christ’s accension to Heaven, He promised that the moment He was gone He would send the Comforter. Again, the pronouns He used in referring to this One who would be sent all point to this being none other than the Holy Spirit. However, with this third and last visitation of the Holy Spirit would be a new role for the age of the Church. For now the Holy Spirit would be available to communicate directly to individuals who by their own free will and choice, choose to fully cooperate with and “be fixed” by God. But not only communicate as in times past, but now also be in daily, moment-by-moment communion with the individual. Not surprising, Christianity has weathered the storm, not because of a great idea put forth from a great prophet, but from the on-going, internal witness of the Holy Spirit enmass in thousands of individuals, confirming the ever-spreading Word and message of God! Now is the time to look at the question put forth and see if a reasonable answer can be given based on the above viewpoints. To answer the question, we simply need to summarized the points above: i. God the Father and the essence of Evil are mutually incompatible. In a sense, they cannot inhabit the same place and time in eternity, to use a rather weak metaphor. This is a hard saying and the best and only way to state this simply is to refer directly to Scripture itself, for example, the references that Judi quotes in her reply above – particularly 2 Corinthians 6:14 – ...Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? ii. It was God’s decision to make the Holy Spirit the main Communicator between Man and God. It is relatively easy, therefore, to imagine that this personage of the Godhead can reside in the “presence” of evil and sin without being impacted or opposed by it. I’ll not be presumptuous on God to assume that that is why they made that decision, but all of Scripture, and particularly the New Testament, emphatically supports this idea. To add to the metaphor that Scripture has already given us, if God the Father is Light and evil/sin is darkness, then perhaps the Holy Spirit is the electricity (medium) by which the Light displaces the darkness, giving light and a clear path to the recipients. To take it one step further, perhaps God the Son is the blood stained hand that turns on the switch that feeds the electricity, in response to our asking Him for the Light. iii. Based on the definition of evil and sin, we as a race are not just the partakers of sin, WE ARE SIN ITSELF, due to our basic human nature as defined by Scripture. Scripture tells us that we have a human spirit, but it by default is dead – not functioning – the lights are on but nobody’s home in that part of us. Can we have the Holy Spirit dwell within us as a fallen race. Aparently not. We are sin, and the Holy Spirit, which is God’s Spirit, cannot dwell within an impure and unrighteous vessel or temple. Keep in mind that the strict regulations regarding the temple and vessels containing His manifested presence in the Old Testament were a foreshadow of God’s strict requirements regarding the beings who would now “contain” the Holy Spirit. But what about the one who invites the Holy Spirit within (conscience of their need for both forgiveness of sin and change in nature) and within whom God has imparted the Holy Spirit and shone His Light? Can the Holy Spirit continue to reside in this one, who yearns for God to fix them yet still finds old habits and thought patterns difficult to change. Yes, because the human spirit of the Born Again believer literally unites with the Holy Spirit, and this event makes the new believer righteous in God’s eyes, in a word, sanctified – one of the requirements for being a vessel worthy of containing the Holy Spirit. Of coarse, this can only be accomplished through the power of redemption made available through the Blood of Christ (another requirement), not through the power of ones own efforts to be good within themselves. Now we find that the saint, as Scripture refers to all who are Born Again in Christ, IS NO LONGER SIN ITSELF, since they have had their spirits quickened by the Holy Spirit, and have taken on a new nature. However, they may continue in certain acts or thoughts that may account as “sin”, all the while the Holy Spirit continues to help them “work out” their salvation, as Paul puts it – a work in progress to slowly change the saint into the image of Christ – the new nature giving the sinner not only the potential for good, but the natural inclination toward Godliness instead of evil or sin. Having said all of the above, it is true that God and Satan do communicate with each other from time to time. However, Scripture does not tell us whether it is God the Father or the Holy Spirit that communicates with Satan. Therefore, I am not at all uncomfortable with firmly sticking to the notion that God and sin are incompatible, while the Holy Spirit and I are more than compatible through Christ Jesus, even though I, like Paul, find myself still doing things I hate and increaingly wanting to do the things I don’t do, and trusting that the Holy Spirit will accomplish even this within me.
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