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February 25th, 2009
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February 25th, 2009
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March 19th, 2009
@TheKNYHT You said: ””“Once the LORD does come back, we will always remain with Him, and He will never depart from us, as stated in 1 Thess.4:17, so this rules out any 3rd, or 4th Coming.”””
Right…
... unless 1 Thess 4:17 is the 3rd or 4th coming.
Understand, that I am NOT saying anything against Acts 1:11, or John 14:3 nor that 2 Thess 2:8 doesn’t depict His coming (at least “a” coming.)
What I AM saying is this: How do we KNOW that we KNOW that we KNOW that there is but two comings? I’ve already demonstrated that John 16 is “a” coming when Jesus admits the sending of the Helper is one of His comings… uttering the very words: “I will come to you” when talking about the “Spirit of truth.”
Maybe we should be careful to dogmatically say there are only two comings. Isn’t that shaky ground? Couldn’t the Word depict more than two comings, since none of them are labeled “second coming?”
I propose that if Jesus says the sending of the Holy Spirit is when “I will come to you” then we must at least give careful consideration building a doctrine that makes Him out to be a liar… saying that such a coming is not really a coming because it doesn’t match another passage about coming in the clouds, etc. It seems to me that it isn’t one or the other. Perhaps it is both… and all of the above.
Its just that Jesus doesn’t say one thing an mean another, nor does He operate in deception or half-truths.
Ripening,
Trent
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March 18th, 2009
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March 18th, 2009
@TheKNYHT , First Jesus says that the Father will give them the Holy Spirit (vs 16,) then Jesus says that He, Himself, will come to them (vs 18) and that they will see Him when the world does not (vs 19.)
http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=John+15§ion=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=joh&NavPreviousChapter=%3C%3C&NavGo=15&NavCurrentChapter=15
John 16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 “After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me;
“I WILL COME TO YOU” ... He says.
Am I reading this right to draw the conclusion that Jesus is communicating to the disciples that He and the Holy Spirit are one and the same?
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February 26th, 2009
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February 25th, 2009
@patq7590,
I thought that was a fine piece of bloggy-blog! Thanks for sharing.
I agree with his / her criticism of modern teaching… especially with the eternal torment teaching (which I why I described “perishing” rather than torment in my last message in this thread.)
I don’t like the teaching of “original sin” ... why lay at the feet of a baby all the sin that has come before. How could God create that which is impure though it has done nothing? Let the children stand before we claim they have fallen.
I don’t like the teaching of “only this life” ... we do not lock the doors on people who had the misfortune of living in a culture that is devoid of the gospel. So, let it be known that all those resurrected into judgment will give answer to their willingness with the revelation of Christ and His gospel standing before them… and many will come to Him during that day who during this life never wanted to or never knew.
I don’t like the teaching of everlasting torment. No parent gets tired of talking to their children so they just whip up some torment instead. We throw folk like that in prison and what a poor witness to warp scripture in such a way that makes it seem as if torture is God’s hobby. Annihilation is everlasting punishment, but it is not everlasting torture.
However…
I don’t really care for the teaching of universalism either. Not only do you need to cut whole sections of the Bible out, but most universalists do bold mental calisthenics to make words like “destroy” to mean “preserve and refine.”
The fact of the matter is that all will stand before the Lord and see Him as He is… and hearts will be revealed. Nobody that wants to belong to the Lord with humility and willingness will ever be denied. Ignorance, rebellion, youth, mental handicaps, etc. ... none of that stuff will cause the process or the revelation of hearts to be obscured.
I love hanging out with universalists, for the record. I think they have their heart in the right place even though I would contend respectfully with them on a few minor things.
Ripening,
Trent
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I can only suggest that you refer to the moderator comments within your thread.