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quarkquarkquark
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  • Joined: December 4th, 2008

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BhacSsylan's avatar BhacSsylan said

Oh, and again, “doing everything in one’s power to prevent X” holds water in exactly no other criminal case. It’s still a crime, even if I don’t attempt to bite the robber’s shoes after he hogties me.

February 7th, 2011

BhacSsylan's avatar BhacSsylan said

Okay, so not giving consent, to you, is not giving consent. However, how is not giving consent giving consent? Because that’s what you’re saying with the rest. She didn’t give consent, so it’s okay. I think this is bull. Again, failure to dissent to any other crime never pans out as an actual defense. Why does it here?

Please note I am not talking about legal ramifications. Those are clear, she has no case. I’m arguing from an ethical standpoint. Also, we’re arguing about the story as it’s told, but i don’t think you seem to want to argue that, so that’s good.

As to your scale, I don’t agree she was a 5. Maybe a 3. According to current story, she didn’t make advances, refused his, and actively did not help him when he starting going further. A solid ‘No’? No, and that’s unfortunate, because then this would be easy. But she did nothing, according to this story, to say she wanted to have sex with him. Nothing. If inviting a person over for drinks was really tantamount to a sexual invitation that may hold water, but it’s not. People are allowed to change their minds after the fact, anyway.

Again, if someone asks to drive your car, and you look unhappy with the idea, they don’t say “thanks!” and grab the keys. It may not be a crime, but then jumping in the car and driving off certainly does.

And the interpretation of actions? Again, not seein’ it. Again, she did nothing to invite him beyond the original invitation, and apparently that’s enough? Ridiculous. Oh, and not having done anything? Have you ever taken a personal defense class, or martial arts at all? If not, let me tell you a secret. I’m a TKD black belt. Want to know the general defense against a mugger, from me? Give him your shit. It’s still robbery if you agree to demands. It does not suddenly become “a business transaction”. And if you say “Hey, why not take my watch instead! It’s a rolex!” doesn’t imply consent! But for rape, it does. Explain to me that logic.

And as far as society’s blame, etc, i don’t think you’re giving me enough credit. However, because some women are strong does not mean that other’s weaknesses are their fault. Especially when background and upbringing can play so large a part. Trust me, i believe in free will like crazy. I hate deterministic arguments. But it’s not like she has done something, and I’m saying “It wasn’t her fault! It’s society!” This creep has done something, and she was not personally strong enough to prevent it. Different matter. Maybe it’s just because I’m a bleeding heart liberal, but i find it important to defend those that have trouble defending themselves. And I think it’s a hell of a lot more on the person in power to do the preventing.

February 7th, 2011

BhacSsylan's avatar BhacSsylan said

Hey, don’t want to post this in the thread because it’s not really on topic, but to expand: The problem is that women are taught, fairly regularly, that invasions of their personal space are fine, and not to do anything about it. And, better yet, if they do they’re being a bitch/dyke/whatever. All that, over years, results in a feeling that they cannot and should not say no. So that’s why one doesn’t. She resisted passively, but that’s hardly going to stop a guy who’s determined (because guys, likewise, are taught that invading a girl’s space is fine), and the best she can do is try to make the best of a bad situation by requiring a condom. and Voila! The apologists come out of the woodwork and say it’s not rape. It’s a pretty vicious cycle.

February 7th, 2011