What do you think is the root cause of all the Muslim bashing going on in America today?

Because there is nothing new under the sun.

I think it’s also the fact that a lot of us see how many Muslim men mistreat their familes and it sickens us. I do realize that not all Muslims are like that, but many of them are and it’s truly disgusting.

@WillWorkForChocolate, mistreating families can be a Christian characteristic as well.

@BarnacleBill As a general rule, Christian men don’t “honor kill” their daughters for daring to look at a non-Christian man, they don’t feel obligated to beat their wives when they disobey, and they don’t marry off their underage daughters.

I was referring to Sharia Law and all Muslims who live by it. It’s cruel and evil.

Fear. Ignorance. Racism.

Today Muslims. Tomorrow, someone else.

@WillWorkForChocolate And, as a general rule, Muslim men don’t “honour kill” their daughters for daring to look at a non-Muslim man, they don’t feel obligated to beat their wives when they disobey, and they don’t marry off their underage daughters. A very small minority, who gain publicity wildly out of proportion to their numbers, do these things.

@meiosis Those who strictly adhere to Sharia Law do. And they’ve done it here in America too. Their religion and cultural laws condone that behavior. There’s yet another spreading sect that circumcises little girls also. Many Muslims are very brutal and yet what they do is condoned by their “god” and their laws.

@WillWorkForChocolate Again, a tiny minority of people do this.

The Christian bible condones both the subjugation of women and beating children, and some people use this as justification for those acts.

Female circumcision is a cultural obscenity primarily practised by East Africans, including Christians.

By the way, your ‘god’ is no less deserving of quotation marks than the Muslim ‘god’.

@meiosis Whilst I try not to get sucked in to the media reports on things like honor killings, it is very hard to believe that the the Muslim religion is as peaceful as Muslims claim when considering the things that @WillWorkForChocolate has mentioned. Unfortunately a lot of Westerners can only form opinions based on what they read/see/hear in the media which is rarely painting a positive picture about Muslims hence the current “Muslim bashing” in the Western world.

@Ivy – That most terrorists are Muslims is a fact. That not all terrorists are Muslims is also a fact. That almost all Muslims are not terrorists is a fact as well.

The problem is the growing number of supporters of Islamism, which is a set of ideologies holding that Islam is not only a religion but also a political system, and that modern Muslims must return to their roots of their religion, and unite politically. The term Islamism does not necessarily imply militancy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism

This is a serious threat to Western societies, with our separation of state and church, our freedom of thought and our critical thinking.

Honest, well-founded criticism is not the same as bashing. Sometimes people are unfairly accused of bashing. In our free societies we have to right to criticize the Bible and the Quran. In many Muslim countries it’s not allowed to criticize the Quran. But we have to exercise our right to reject Quran verse 4:34 for example:

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme.

This is outdated 7th century thinking. It doesn’t belong in the 21st century.

Sharia law doesn’t belong in the 21st century.

@BarnacleBill – Yes, mistreating families can be a Christian characteristic as well. But domestic violence is far more common in many Muslim societies. In Egypt for example, even today almost 90% of young girls get their clitoris cut away, and some even bleed to death. Juvenile rape victims have to marry their rapists to restore the honor of families.

Downplaying problems doesn’t accomplish anything.

@mattbrowne Everyone’s entitled to their opinion but not to say it’s fact. Here are some facts:

“The United States military is helping fund both sides of the war in Afghanistan, knowingly financing a mafia-like collection of warlords and some of the very insurgents American troops are battling, according to Afghan and American officials and a new Congressional study released today.” http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Afghanistan/united-states-military-funding-taliban-afghanistan/story?id=10980527

In 1979 “the largest covert operation in the history of the CIA” was launched in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in support of the pro-Communist government of Babrak Kamal.2:
With the active encouragement of the CIA and Pakistan’s ISI [Inter Services Intelligence], who wanted to turn the Afghan jihad into a global war waged by all Muslim states against the Soviet Union, some 35,000 Muslim radicals from 40 Islamic countries joined Afghanistan’s fight between 1982 and 1992. Tens of thousands more came to study in Pakistani madrasahs. Eventually more than 100,000 foreign Muslim radicals were directly influenced by the Afghan jihad.3
The Islamic “jihad” was supported by the United States and Saudi Arabia with a significant part of the funding generated from the Golden Crescent drug trade:

In March 1985, President Reagan signed National Security Decision Directive 166,...[which] authorize[d] stepped-up covert military aid to the mujahideen, and it made clear that the secret Afghan war had a new goal: to defeat Soviet troops in Afghanistan through covert action and encourage a Soviet withdrawal. The new covert U.S. assistance began with a dramatic increase in arms supplies—a steady rise to 65,000 tons annually by 1987, ... as well as a “ceaseless stream” of CIA and Pentagon specialists who traveled to the secret headquarters of Pakistan’s ISI on the main road near Rawalpindi, Pakistan. There the CIA specialists met with Pakistani intelligence officers to help plan operations for the Afghan rebels.4
The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) using Pakistan’s military Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) played a key role in training the Mujahideen. In turn, the CIA sponsored guerrilla training was integrated with the teachings of Islam:
Predominant themes were that Islam was a complete socio-political ideology, that holy Islam was being violated by the atheistic Soviet troops, and that the Islamic people of Afghanistan should reassert their independence by overthrowing the leftist Afghan regime propped up by Moscow.5 http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html

“This (Islam) is outdated 7th century thinking. It doesn’t belong in the 21st century.” ~
Well, ain’t that the pot calling the kettle black. I personally wish whatever ‘Rapture’ each of the major religions believe would come today and the rest of us could live and let live.

And as far as “Sharia law doesn’t belong in the 21st century.” Neither does a religion that believes in talking snakes.

@meiosis When it comes to Muslim culture, it’s not a “tiny minority” that behaves in that manner. Do more reading and research, and listen to Muslim women themselves cry out against the barbaric nature of Muslim men.

I’m not some cranky white American who only believes what I see in the media. I have a brain and I use it. I do know how to read and I do know how to research things that interest me. I’ve seen claims and cried over the horror stories I’ve heard from Muslim women who want to break free from the tyranny of their men.

Everything I mentioned goes on in the Middle East and yes, in America too. Right under our noses. They kill their daughters for disobedience, insubordination and what they call “dishonor”. They beat their wives for very minor offenses, they marry off girls that are sometimes only 9 years old, and they actually cut off the clitoris on their women. Why? Because women are their property, given to them by Allah in order to serve them and give them what they demand. According to them, women have no need of sexual pleasure, they are there only to serve and to bear obedient children. Some brave Muslim women who seek to escape their culture have called out for help, and they have actually reported these things. It’s not hearsay, it’s not a “tiny minority”. It happens more than supporters of Islam want everyone to believe. It happens more than people who cry “racism” want to believe. It’s disgusting and it truly is evil. And it’s not an occasional occurence, whatever you choose to believe.

Call people like me “racist” all you want, but until something is done to change that culture and to save those poor women and children from mutilation, rape and murder, I will continue to despise the Muslim culture, and I will continue to loathe the fact that they are infiltrating my country. We have enough evils of our own here, we don’t need their kind here as well.

Now that I’ve justified my answer, I’m leaving this question. I’ve had a shitty day and I have no need or desire to answer a question truthfully and have it be insinuated that I’m ignorant or misinformed. I bid you good day.

@WillWorkForChocolate I haven’t called you racist at all. I think you owe me an apology.

@Ivy – Which facts have I mentioned which are not facts?

Bad US politics does not make mistreating girls and women in so many Muslim societies any better.

Of course Christianity isn’t perfect either, but 400 years of Enlightenment have changed majority Christian societies dramatically. There are exceptions like the Christian Right in the US, but their violence is not as extreme.

I don’t think there’s any justification for defending any goals or any actions by the Islamist movement such as the introduction of sharia law. Calling people who criticize the promotion of sharia law racists is ludicrous.

Your confusing hatred with well-founded criticism. I don’t hate anybody. I don’t hate Muslims. But I think the growing Islamism (political Islam) is very, very dangerous. And above all, it’s the girls and women who suffer most.

I recommend you read the following speech by Djemila Benhabib. Wake up, my friend.

Parliamentary Commission on the Wearing of the Full Islamic Veil: An address read before the French parliament on November 13, 2009

by Djemila Benhabib, author of Ma vie à contre-coran

Mesdames les sénatrices, Mesdames les présidentes, Mesdames et messieurs les dignitaires,

Chers amis,

I thank you wholeheartedly for this great honor, for being counted among you today, among the Femmes debout; thank you for this opportunity to allow my voice – the voice of a woman from a Moslem culture, a feminist and an advocate of secularism – to resonate in this prestigious institution of the French Republic.

I thank you, my friends from the Femmes solidaires and the Ligue du droit international des femmes for your relentless, endless work that is so very essential. I thank you for your work on the local scene, with women who are victims of violence and discrimination, for your work with undocumented immigrants. I thank you for your work in the political arena and with officials from the UN. It is on the local level that the work for women’s rights takes root and then resonates on an international scale. Women’s March for liberty and equality is one and indivisible. When one woman suffers somewhere on this planet, it concerns us all, men and women alike. Thank you for making us feel in a thousand ways that we are links in the same chain.

Several years ago, I would never have imagined that my life as a woman, that my life as a militant, would be so intimately connected to feminism and secularism. I will perhaps surprise you in admitting that I did not become a feminist by turning the pages of The Second Sex, nor by plunging myself into Aragon’s magnificent book Les Cloches de Bâle, where he talks about, among other things, Clara Zetkin and Rosa Luxembourg, two hallmark figures for feminism and world peace. I did not become a secularist by bathing myself in the light of Spinoza, of Ibn Al-Arabi, Descartes, Ibn Khaldoun or even Voltaire, my teacher. Absolutely not.

I could have averted my gaze to lose myself in the happy childhood of my generous, cultured family, so open to the world and to others, so deeply engaged in the cause of democracy and social justice. I could have lost myself in the beauty of the seaside city of Oran, where life was so wonderful. Oran is the city that propelled the literary career of Albert Camus towards a Nobel prize in literature for his renowned novel The Plague. I could have seen nothing, heard nothing of the anger, contempt, humiliation and violence poured out on women.

I chose to see and to hear, at first with my child’s eyes and ears. Later, I chose to voice the aspirations of all these women who marked my life forever, so that no woman in the world would be ashamed of being a woman. Quite honestly, when I was a child and especially when I was a teenager, I never dreamed of marriage, of a Prince Charming, of a long gown, a big house, children and a family. The handful of marriages I had attended, in Algeria, made me feel like women were objects more than subjects. Needless to say, my perspective was very much in the minority, because women are programmed from childhood to become wives and then mothers. I must have been around five or six, possibly seven years old at most, when I was summoned to join my grandmother in the kitchen – because my natural place was at the stove and the laundry… so that my cooking and cleaning talents could shine when the time came.

In 1984, Algeria adopted a family code inspired by the Islamic sharia (canonical law). I was 12 years old at the time. In short, this code demands that the wife obey her husband and his parents. It allows polygamy and the repudiation of the wife, strips her of any parental authority, allows the husband to punish her. As for inheritances and giving testimony, inequality is systematically established, since it takes the voice of two women to equal the voice of one man… the same inequality applies to inheritance.

As for secularism, I understood its necessity when, in the early 1990s, the FIS (Extremist Islamists) brought my country Algeria to its knees, through fire and blood, by killing thousands of Algerians. Today we must admit that things have not really changed. Too many women in the world are humiliated, beaten, assaulted, repudiated, assassinated, burned, whipped and stoned.

In the name of what?

Of religion, of Islam to be specific, and in the name of its exploitation. For refusing an arranged marriage, refusing to wear the Islamic veil or even for asking for a divorce, wearing pants, driving a car or going out without the permission of the male, women, so many women, are subjected to the barbarity of physical cruelty. I am thinking in particular of our Iranian sisters who marched in the streets of Tehran, causing one of the world’s worst dictators – Ahmadinejad—shudder.

I am thinking of Neda, this young Iranian assassinated when she was 26 years old. We’ve all seen the image of Neda lying on the ground, blood flowing from her mouth. I am thinking of Nojoud Ali, this little ten year-old Yemenite girl, who was forced to marry a man three times her age. She fought to obtain the right to divorce and won. I am thinking of Loubna Al-Hussein who shook the government of Kharoum last summer because of the way she dressed.

The worst feminine condition in the world is in Moslem countries. This is a fact and we must recognize it. That is our first responsibility towards all women who defy the worst tyrannical regimes in the world. Who would dare say otherwise? Who would dare claim the opposite to be true? Islamists and their accomplices? Assuredly. But they are not the only ones!

There is also a current of relativist thought claiming that, in the name of culture and tradition, we must accept the regression that confines the other to the perpetual role of victim. This thinking tries to make us feel guilty for our social choices in labeling us racist and Islamiphobic for defending secularism and equality between the sexes. It is this same left that opens its arms to Tarik Ramadan, for him to strut from city to city, from one television stage to another, spitting on the values of the French Republic.

Know that there is nothing in my culture that destines me to be hidden under a shroud, that ostentatious emblem of difference. Nothing destines me to have to accept the triumph of the idiot, the fool and the coward, especially when small minds, the mediocre, are set up as judges. Nothing that prepares me for having my sexual organs butchered without my indignation. Nothing predestines me to a life of physical punishment. Nothing says I must repudiate beauty and pleasure and accept a cold, harsh blade against my throat. And if that were the case, I would deny my mother’s belly, my father’s caress, and the sunshine of my childhood days, without a moment of regret or remorse.

Islamic politics is not the expression of a cultural specificity, as some people in this world claim. It is a political matter, a collective threat that attacks the very foundation of democracy in promoting a violent, sexist, misogynistic, racist and homophobic ideology. We have seen the way that Islamic movements, with the complicity, cowardice and support of certain political sectors, guarantee the profound regression that has settled into the very heart of our cities.

And yet, in Canada, we came very close to having Islamic courts. That is already the norm in several communities in Great Britain. From one end of the planet to another, wearing the Islamic veil is spreading and becoming commonplace, even becoming an acceptable alternative in the eyes of some, because it is at least better than the burqa!

What can be said about Occidental democracies that abdicate their responsibility to protect the primordial issues upon which community and citizenship are based: the defense of public schools, public services, the neutrality of the State, for example?

What can be said about the retreat on the accessibility to abortion, right here in France?

However, it is still possible to make societies move forward, thanks to our courage, our determination and our audacity. I am not telling you that these are easy choices. Far from it. The pathways to freedom are always steep and uphill. They are the only pathways leading to human emancipation; I know of no others.

This wonderful page of history, of OUR history, teaches us that suffering is not submitting. Because beyond the injustices and the humiliations, there is also resistance. To resist is to give oneself the right to choose one’s destiny. For me, this is what feminism is about. A destiny is not individual but collective, for the dignity of ALL women. This is how I give meaning to my life, in tying my destiny as a woman to all those who dream of equality and secularism, as the very foundation of democracy.

History is full of examples of religions that go beyond the private sphere and invade the public sphere to become law. Women are always the first to lose in this context. But not only women. Life, in its multiple dimensions, suddenly becomes sclerotic when the law of God meddles with the law of men in order to control our every move. There is no longer any room for progress in science, literature, theatre, music, dance, painting, cinema. In short, there is no room for life. What grows is regression and restriction. Moreover, this is why I have a profound aversion to all fundamentalists of any sort, because I am in love with life.

Let us remember something: when religion directs the life of a community, we are no longer in the realm of the possible, where there is room for doubt, where Reason and the rationality so dear to those of the Enlightenment guide us. Separating the public and the private by affirming the State’s neutrality seems indispensable to me, because only the secular provides for a common space – a system of reference where the notion of citizenship is central, removed from beliefs and disbeliefs, in order to take in hand the fate of the community. Before I conclude, I would like to share with you a letter addressed to one of your elected officials.

I hesitated for a long time before writing to you. Perhaps out of fear of being perceived as a woman coming from somewhere else, bursting into “French affairs.” Let propriety be damned. I wasn’t given any talent for propriety, especially when it’s in the interest of the strongest, the most powerful and the most arrogant. Moreover, if I had had to live according to what others thought, I wouldn’t have made much of my life. When it comes to women’s rights, what is suitable must give way to what is essential.

The essential being this: liberty, equality and the emancipation of women. I still hear my French friends insisting: speak to him, tell him, write to him. Curiously, their words remind me of the title of a magnificent film by Almodovar: Talk to Her, where in the opening moments, the curtain is furtively raised for several seconds on a dance featuring the body of a woman – Pina Bausch, who so well and forthrightly expressed in her choreographies the violence trained against women.

Mr. Gérin, my remarks are addressed to you. I would like to talk to you, to tell you about the fear I felt on March 25, 1994 when I was living in Oran, in Algeria and the Islamic Army Group (GIA) ordered that the women of my country must wear the Islamic veil. That day, I and thousands of other Algerian women, marched with our bare heads, to challenge death. We played hide-and-seek with the bloodthirsty GIA. The memory of Katia Bengana, a young 17 year-old high school girl who was killed as she was leaving school on February 28, 1994 was hovering over our bare heads. There are founding events in a life, that give a particular direction to the path of every one of us. That was one for me. Ever since that day, I have a deep aversion for everything having to do with the hidjab, veil, burqa, niqab, tchador, jilbab, khimar, in all their forms. Today you head a parliamentary commission charged with studying the wearing of the full veil in France.

Last March in Quebec, I published a book titled Ma vie à contre-Coran : une femme témoigne sur les islamistes (My Life Against the Coran : One Woman Testifies about the Islamists). From the very first sentences, I used the tone of what has become my life, in terms of political engagement, by writing this: “I have lived the premise of an Islamist dictatorship, in the early 1990s. I wasn’t even 18 years old. I was guilty of being a woman, a feminist and secularist.” I must tell you that I am not feminist and secular by vocation but by necessity, by the strength of things, the suffering that impregnates my body because I cannot abide seeing political Islam gain ground here and everywhere else in the world. I became feminist and secular through seeing around me women suffering in silence behind closed doors, to hide their gender and their pain, to suffocate their desires and silence their dreams. There was a time when France considered the question of the Islamic veil being worn in its schools. Today it is a question of the full veil. Instead of expanding the 2004 law to university establishments, we are debating about the possibility of allowing caskets to walk around in our streets. Is this normal? Perhaps tomorrow polygamy will be the order of the day. Don’t laugh. That’s what happened in Canada; the courts had to intervene. Because after all, it’s easy to blame culture when it comes to oppressing women. By a strange irony of fate, I noticed in several neighborhoods that skirts are getting longer and are disappearing little by little. The array of colors is getting smaller. It has become commonplace to camouflage one’s body behind a veil; wearing a skirt has become an act of resistance. Just the same, the film “The Day of the Skirt” takes place in a French suburb. While in the streets of Tehran and Khartoum women are uncovering themselves more and more, risking their lives, here in outlying areas of the French Republic, the veil has become the norm.

What is going on? Has France been taken ill?

The Islamic veil is often presented as part of a “collective Moslem identity.” It is nothing of the sort. It is the emblem of the fundamentalist Moslem everywhere in the world. If it has a particular connotation, it is political, especially since the advent of the Islam revolution in Iran in 1979.

Let us not be mistaken about this: the Islamic veil hides women’s fear, their bodies, their freedom and their sexuality.

Worse yet, the perversion is pushed to paroxysm in veiling girls less than five years old. Some time ago, I tried to remember at which moment precisely in Algeria I saw this veil appear in the classroom. During my childhood and up until the moment I started high school, in 1987, wearing the Islamic veil was only marginal around me. In grade school, no one wore the hidjab, not the teachers and especially not the students.

I have been living in Quebec for 12 years. Its motto, written on car license plates, is Je me souviens, “I remember.” Speaking of memory, what should France remember? That it is the messenger of the Enlightenment, that millions of women are nourished by the writings of Simone de Beauvoir, whose name is inseparable from that of Djamila Boupacha. That’s an understatement. I have no doubt that France is a great country; this confers on you responsibilities and duties towards all of us, the smaller countries. Moreover this is why today our eyes are on your commission and why we are expecting you to be courageous and responsible, by forbidding the burqa.

As for us in Quebec, we remember that in 1961, for the first time in history, a woman, and moreover an attorney, was elected to the Legislative Assembly in a bye-election. Her name is Claire Kirkland; she goes on to become minister. An old parliamentary rule mandating that women wear hats to appear in the Legislative Assembly was invoked; she was told to cover her head during sessions. She refused. A scandal. One newspaper headline read: “A woman with uncovered head in the Legislative Assembly!” She fights and wins.

What we must understand from this is that the rights we have gained are fragile and must be fiercely, relentlessly defended. We must understand that they are the result of collective battles fought by millions of women and men committed to liberty and justice. I dare to hope, Mr. Gérin, that the commission over which you are presiding will take into account all these sacrifices and all these socially aware aspirations around the world, over the course of centuries.

To you, dear friends, if there is one thing, only one, that I would like you to retain from these words, it is this: despite a certain resigned left, the racism of the extreme right and the laisser-faire and complicity of governments, we have the possibility of changing things. More, we have the historic responsibility of advancing the rights of women. In a way, we are responsible for our future and our children’s future.

Because it will take the direction we give it.

We the citizens. We the people of the world. By our gestures, our actions and our mobilization.

All socially aware energy is necessary, from one country to another, beyond borders. The future belongs to us. The woman is the future of the man, Aragon used to say. And as to men, I want to salute one present here today: my father, to whom I owe everything.

I conclude by quoting Simone de Beauvoir: “We have the right to shout but our cry must be heard, it must hold up, it must resonate in others.”

I dare to hope that my cry will echo among you.

Djemila Benhabib

http://www.djemilabenhabib.com/

@mattbrowne “Calling people who criticize the promotion of sharia law racists is ludicrous.”

Nobody has accused anyone of racism in this discussion. Quite why you and @WillWorkForChocolate feel the need to insinuate otherwise is bizarre.

@meiosis – When I wrote “Calling people who criticize the promotion of sharia law racists is ludicrous” I have neither addressed you or anybody else in this thread, have I? But the people who do this are out there, and they are numerous. To give you an example:

Alice Schwarzer (born December 3, 1942) is the most prominent contemporary German feminist. She is founder and publisher of the German feminist journal EMMA.

In recent years, she has been highly critical of political Islamism and the position of women in Islam; she favors prohibitions against women in schools or other public settings wearing the Islamic headscarf, which she considers a symbol of oppression. She warns of a creeping islamization of Europe, leading to an erosion of human rights and especially women’s rights.

She has received thousands of letters and emails from people calling her a racist. This is bizarre to say the least.

Apologies, I’ve reread your post and you don’t accuse anyone of crying racist in this discussion. I was worked up by @WillWorkForChocolate‘s nonsense.

And you’re right – calling someone racist for criticising Islam is bizarre. Equally, equating the actions of a minority to the whole is also bizarre. Political Islam is a threat, albeit a minor one, Muslims per se are not.

@mattbrowne You wrote “I don’t hate anybody.” What’s the bottom-line of a superiority complex then, because you also wrote “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.” As a good woman I find this offensive and hateful on so many levels, and apparently unlike you, I’ve known too many women to count who have their minds and spirit beat out of them by hooking up with men who believe this tripe. The only wealth those men showered on their women was a wealth of hurt. I guess hate, like everything else, is in ones experience of it.

And in all you wrote you never responded to this:
you – “This (Islam) is outdated 7th century thinking. It doesn’t belong in the 21st century.”
me – Well, ain’t that the pot calling the kettle black?! I personally wish whatever ‘Rapture’ each of the major religions believe is coming, would come today, and the rest of us could live and let live.

you – “Sharia law doesn’t belong in the 21st century.”
me – Neither does a religion that believes in talking snakes.

Men who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

@Ivy – You think I wrote “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient” ?

I was quoting the Quran verse 4:34 – And I do find this verse to be very offensive.

@mattbrowne I’m sorry, I did think those were your words and am relieved to learn you find them odious. You have to understand that for people who are not Judeo-Christian or Islamic in their beliefs and practices, that quote from the Quran doesn’t sound a whole lot different than this one from the Bible or the following one from Thomas Aquinas:

“All wickedness is but little to the wickedness of a woman: let the portion of a sinner fall upon her.” Eccl. 25:18

“As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power….” Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,Q92, art. 1, Reply Obj. 1.

And that’s the point of this question. What’s the difference between ‘Muslim’ terrorists and the American ‘terrorists’ that have invaded and occupied Iraq and Afghanistan, and the countless unnecessary civilian deaths in those countries at the hands of American soldiers and Blackwater mercenaries? What is the difference between Muslim hate and Christian hate?

It’s corny, but I’ve listening to the Billy Jack theme song again recently. Do you remember it? “Go ahead and hate your neighbor, go ahead and cheat a friend. Do it in the name of justice, you can justify it in the end. Won’t be any trumpets blowin’ come the judgement day. On the bloody mornin’ after, one tin soldier rides away.”

@Ivy One quick comment about @mattbrowne, he is one of the most level headed, rational, fair people I know on fluther. He would never think men are superior to women, or hate someone because of their faith. I only say this, so when you read his comments, you can assume he is not coming from a hateful or one-sided mindset.

Now, about your question, the media plays a huge part. There should have been more attention to the Saudis getting their wives and families out of America. The politicians and media are feeding the hatred of Muslims more and more in the last couple of years. Look at our presidential run, peaople running around saying Obama is a Muslim so people would fear him becoming president. I cannot even imagine what it was like for Muslim children in America to hear on the news that a Muslim president would be horrific. I find it disgusting.

The way I look at the whole Muslim debate is I live in the US, and I am concerned with the Msulims in my country. Obviously, radical Muslims around the world matter, and the countries they attack, not only America matter very much to me, but what I mean is, what we do as Americans, how we treat our Muslims concerns me very much. Look, Protestans and Catholics were blowing each other up in Ireland not long ago. In America we never associated that with out Catholics and Muslims. It is because the Muslims are a minority religion that they are targeted. It is easy for people to make generalizations and fear yhem, when they have little contact withthem. Us and Them.

I hold onto the idea that our Muslims are Americans, greatful for being in a country with freedom of religion, and a secular government (well sort of). I see no reason why they will not assimilate and get Americanized like the rest of us. We must treat them as we would want to be treated. And, they must be obedient to our laws if they choose to come here. Every Arab and Persian Muslim I know, who lives here, have been nothing but wonderful, and are very American, but also not very religious. But, I think some of that is the American way, we identify with our religion, but the majority of us are not fanatics in our religion, don’t know, or have not read our religious books thoroughly. There was a study recently that Jews and Atheists knew more about the bible than anyone else.

I dread the idea that Christians in our country make this a religious war, and think putting religion into our government will help keep away the bad guys. But, these Christians exist in our country, fail to understand America was founded on religious freedom, but they are not the majority.

This is a complicated issue full of emotional tugging…I am against islamophobia based on the events of 9/11 or any other events…before you cast a stone at an Abrahamic religion elsewhere, focus on what’s wrong with the country in which you live…as a feminist, I understand the concern for women everywhere, globally speaking, but as a realist..deep rooted sexism and horrific abuses occur across cultures, ethnicities and are very real anywhere..I find that nobody has ever given a shit about Muslim women and their troubles until it became an issue of throwing hissy fits about the ‘threat of Muslims’. There are a lot of factors at play here, there are competing ideologies, competing economies, warfare being passed off as honorable. People not learned in politics or what’s actually going on are making value judgments, snap judgments…they talk about banning the Burqa but scoff at the word feminist or not, conflating the two somehow..they talk about not building a mosque but aren’t capable of seeing that their arrogance about their own religion is laughable…I avoided this threat for a reason – I stand firmly on the side of Islam, as an atheist, before I stand on the side of Christ and I base that decision on learning what Muslims and Christians have been like in my life.

I can remember when men were considered ‘the head of the house’ and in theory at least made all the important decisions for the family. Men were expected to go out and work and women were expected to stay at home and look after the children and make the tea for the man coming home. Things have changed very much within my lifetime and now it takes two incomes to raise a family and women are (at least) on an equal footing with men.

We should remember that the way we were was not so very different from the way many societies are today. We can be critical of other societies and consider them less advanced than ours but this is a poor reason for hating them.

@Ivy – I’m glad you realized that I’m not the author of the quote posted earlier. The Bible does contain misogynist statement, mostly in the OT, but also some in the NT. But here’s a difference: The Quran is also a book of law, while the New Testament is not. The Islamist movement wants to implement the laws laid out in the Quran. It is very active worldwide and as @JLeslie mentioned get incredible large amounts of money from Saudi Arabia.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – As I said earlier, honest well-founded criticism is not islamophobia. Our leading German feminist Alice Schwarzer knew Simone De Beauvoir very well, met with her numerous times and even wrote a book about her (Schwarzer, Alice. Simone de Beauvoir Today: Conversations, 1972–1982. Translated by Marianne Howarth. London, 1984).

Here’s a Spiegel interview with Alice Schwarzer and you will see that she strongly disagrees with the views you expressed earlier. And so do I.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,329261,00.html

Eyes Wide Shut – In an interview with DER SPIEGEL, German feminist publisher Alice Schwarzer discusses the difficulties Germany has in dealing with its Muslim women and the growing influence of Islam in Europe.

SPIEGEL:

For decades, people have looked on without doing anything as some of Germany’s Turkish women were stripped of their rights. Why has this stirred so little resistance in German society?

Schwarzer: Because every denunciation of this abuse is immediately branded as racism. But common sense is never wrong: A women, who stumbles about beneath a mountain of cloth while her husband strides around in jeans or a girl who is supposed to enter into a forced marriage? That’s a scandal no matter what culture you belong to.

SPIEGEL: Well, you wouldn’t hear any accusations of racism from the political right.

Schwarzer: Do you consider all conservatives to be racist? The left, especially, has appealed up till now for a “tolerance of differences.” But really, people who make that argument think that Turkish women are a different type of people in another culture whose rules must be accepted—even if they’re misogynist and misanthropic.

SPIEGEL: What have your personal experiences in the fight against the oppression of Muslim women been?

Schwarzer: Intimidation! It all started with my Iran trip in 1979, two weeks after the seizure of power by Ayatollah Khomenei, as I wrote about this new variant of fascism in “Emma.” They certainly didn’t make any secret of their intentions, just like the Nazis in 1933. People pegged me as a “racist” and “friend of the Shaw.” And even today in Germany, no one wants to note that the so-called rebels in Chechnya have practiced (ultra-orthodox) Sharia law since 1994! I haven’t heard any human rights activists protesting about that.

SPIEGEL: How do you explain this reaction?

Schwarzer: It’s naked contempt for women, but also self-hatred as well as this German desire for beliefs. After the Nazis condemned everything foreign, the children now want to love everything foreign, with their eyes closed tightly. After their left-wing gods went into decline, they want to believe in these new gods.

SPIEGEL: Wasn’t it the leftists who took up the issue of foreigners?

Schwarzer: Yes, but often under the mantel of the multicultural ideology, which I consider to be dishonest. They veil the fact that we don’t treat others with a basic attitude of equality, but rather in a patronizing manner. This special kind of love of things foreign is just the flip side of contempt of things foreign. We’ve just seen in the Netherlands what direction a wrongly understood tolerance can take us in. These self-righteous fanatics believe they have the right—even in our democracy—to butcher non-believers in order to muzzle any criticism of their delusion.

SPIEGEL: In Germany, the recent headscarf ban has drawn attention to the living conditions of Muslim women. Marieluise Beck, the federal commissioner for integration policy, believes that women wearing a headscarf can be more easily integrated—especially because they’re allowed to leave the house.

Schwarzer: By so frenetically supporting the minority of Muslim women who demonstratively wear the headscarf, she’s also stabbing the majority in the back who deliberately don’t cover themselves. Does the integration representative even know what kind of moral pressure a headscarf-wearing teacher can exert on a Muslim school girl and her parents? After all, the Islamists consider an unveiled woman to be a whore.

SPIEGEL: But don’t basic rights include freedom of religion?

Schwarzer: That has nothing to do with religion, it’s politics. Add to that the fact that a teacher’s job isn’t self-fullfillment, but rather to represent democracy. If an Islamic headscarf is permitted, then why not a (full-body covering) chador or a burqa? In Swedish and English schools, girls have already shown up in burqas.

SPIEGEL: The courts have been dealing with suits from Muslims who want to assert their ideas in this country. How does Islamic law influence German legal practices?

Schwarzer: Insidiously. The Islamists have been conducting targeted propaganda in Germany since the mid-1980s. Their primary offensive is the social infiltration of their own people. Their second is the undermining of the democratic educational system. Their third is the infiltration of the constitutional state. In concerted actions they have, in the past several years, attempted to infiltrate the Sharia law into the German legal system. The flag of this crusade is the headscarf. Professor Mathias Rohe, a judge in the Nuremburg higher regional court who is active in this area, said very openly when asked in 2002: “In Germany, we are applying Sharia law every day. If a Jordanian gets married here, then we marry them under Jordanian law – including the “right” to polygamy.

SPIEGEL: You want to ward off Islamism using the constitution?

Schwarzer: Of course! We fought arduously for our freedoms, like enlightenment and democracy, and we can’t allow ourselves to fall back from what we have achieved. Human rights are universally valid and indivisible, regardless of culture and religion.

SPIEGEL: What policies do you expect in order to protect women’s rights and to counteract the influence of Islamists?

Schwarzer: There’s much to be done because everything has been neglected. Mastery of the German language and the acceptance of our legal system has to become part of the criteria for naturalization. In the affected neighborhoods in the cities, youth programs and contact with the youth need to be actively pursued so that girls and boys are no longer so alienated from each other and so they are not open to incitement by mosque associations that are enemies of democracy. In these neighborhoods and at the university level, we need to actively and constructively put up resistance to the rat-catcher propaganda of the Islamists. And we have to give concrete aid to the acutely threatened women and girls.

SPIEGEL: Shouldn’t the affected also raise their voices—also in the fight against radicals?

Schwarzer: The silence has ended. The most courageous are already starting to raise their voices. And they’re paying dearly for it. Following the murder of Theo van Gogh, the name of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Dutch member of parliament of Somali-Muslim origin, has been on the death lists that have been found. She’s gone into hiding. Should we all now remain silent out of fear? No. It’s time to ask for a little bit of solidarity from democratically minded Muslim women and men.

@mattbrowne Do you feel that how Muslims assimilate in America would be different than Germany? For instance, about the headscarf, it is hard to not allow it, but allow a Jewish Yamulke for instance. I think the more we try to deny someone religious freedom, the more ferver found among the religious, if they feel singles out. We have to apply the rule to everyone. Is that what Germany does? America has this religious freedom thing, separation of church and state embedded in the ideals of the country since its founding (even if some people seem to forget it) but I have no idea if Germany had this in their beginnings, or if they have grown to this idea over time, in modern times? I actually am ok with uniforms in school, zero religious symbols or clothing, I just think ot has to be fair.

@mattbrowne Oh no, a feminist disagrees with me – what will I possibly do with myself now, lol? I am sorry but she sounds incredibly one-dimensional.

@mattbrowne Neoliberalsim (spreading our supposedly morally superior values to “protect” someone) is just as bad as neoconservativism, and often leads to more anger in the direction of those supposedly bringing justice (that wasn’t asked for.)

The root cause lies in the way Americans are indoctrinated to believe that their nation and the Christian faith represent all that is Good and Wholesome and the Standard against which all other nations and faiths must be Judged.

Christianity teaches to avoid judging others. Apparently Americanism supersedes Christianity.

Then again, with the upswing in neoconservativism linked to rabid Christian fundamentalism, the xenophobia leads naturally to racism, invasions of foreign countries and making the zealous desire to impose the American way on all those who do not worship the idols of capitalism (at any cost) and American credo of “nationalism over reason.”

i can assure you the feeling isn’t mutual, the Muslim world hates the USA far more bitterly, and this enmity is growing daily and will find expression sporadically for years to come, and America will use these incidents to clamp down on one region after another, until the entire Muslim sphere of existence is choking under US intervention.

Secondly America will never exit Afghanistan, never, not in our lifetime, that region will soon be swarming with western prospectors like the ‘49ers of San Francisco.

That and Israel and Iraq will guarantee America is bogged down in a morass of hatred and violence for decades.

there is one good thing to come out of this, South America is growing in confidence and socialist movements are popping up everywhere like mushrooms, whilst America takes it’s CIA of the ball. i suppose you can’t keep them all down.

@JLeslie – About 6 million Muslims live in France with a total population of 62 million. About 4 million Muslims live in Germany with a total population of 82 million. In both countries sociologists found that about 25% of the Muslim population support non-militant political Islam (either by actively promoting it, or by agreeing with its goals and raising their children in this manner).

Although a minority among all Muslims, this is still a lot of people, and the percentage keeps rising every year. In France, like in Turkey, wearing the headscarf in schools, university and other public buildings is not allowed and this applies to both teachers and students. In Germany a few states have restrictions for teachers, but not for students.

The headscarf is a political symbol and Muslim men in favor of political Islam force their wives and daughters to wear it. In Germany 30% of all Muslim women and girls wear the headscarf, while only a tiny minority wear chadors, niqabs or burkas. Islamist supporters don’t use physical violence or terror outside their homes, but they apply a lot of pressure and silently or openly show disdain for our free, pluralistic society. Since 70% of all our Muslim women and girls don’t wear the headscarf many of them are being accused of being unclean, or worse being a slut. I’m not kidding. This is happening in our schools. Headscarf-wearing girls engage in mobbing Arab and Turkish girls without a headscarf.

At parent-teacher conferences Islamist fathers (showing up with their wives who often remain silent the whole time) refuse to shake the hands of unclean female German teachers. They even refuse to talk to these teachers or look at them even when being addressed. A direct conversation is only possible when male teachers are present as well. The Islamist fathers make a lot of demands. Their daughters are to be excused from swimming classes and a whole range of extracurricular class activities. Some Islamists even demand that school cafeterias stop serving pork. Young male students often show great disrespect toward their female teachers. There have been cases when teachers were called unclean German sluts. Again, I’m not kidding. This minority of Turkish and Arab boys are being raised as machos. They are in charge of their sisters of course. Alice Schwarzer has helped organized support groups for the growing number of victims of Islamist pressure and domestic violence.

German governments are very careful imposing more rules, because usually when something like this happens, the international press is having a field day, often alluding that Germany would become more and more intolerant, and of course everyone knows what the Nazis did. Interestingly, a growing number of non-Islamist Turkish women speak up and make demands that the German government should be tougher when dealing with the Islamist movement. They argue that while we should tolerant tolerance, we should not tolerate intolerance. Necla Kelek is an important leader in Germany’s feminist movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necla_Kelek

The Wikipedia article actually reflects the controversy in our debate in this Fluther thread.

“Necla Kelek (born 1957 in Istanbul, Turkey) is a German feminist and social scientist of Turkish descent, holding a doctorate in this field. She came with her parents from Turkey to Germany at the age of 11 in 1968. After her parents had maintained a western, secular lifestyle in Istanbul, they turned toward religion in Germany. Once, when Kelek dared to contradict her father, he threathened to kill her with an axe. Her father forbade her to participate in school sports, in order to protect her virginity and to preserve the honor of the family.

She studied economy and sociology in Hamburg and was disowned by her family, since they did not want to allow her the right to be independent. She got her doctoral degree in 2001 with an investigation into the coming of age of women in Islam.

Similar to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Dutch politician of Somali origin, or the Egyptian feminist, Sérénade Chafik, Kelek opposes the repression of women in Islam. She is strongly criticized by Islamic organizations for this, especially since she is convinced that there is very little compatibility between Western and Islamic ideals. Kelek was a member of the scientific advisory council of the Giordano-Bruno-Stiftung, a foundation for the support of evolutionary humanism.

Today, Kelek is in demand as an expert on the subject of Islamic culture in the Western world. In her publication, Die verlorenen Söhne (The Lost Sons, 2006), her central theme is the influence of Islam on the small family. The book is based on Kelek’s research project on the subject of parallel society.

Despite the actual state of affairs, many migration scientists and other academics represent the illusion of the successful integration of Muslim migrants, Kelek claims. She received support from scientists with opposing views and signing an ‘opposing call’ with the title ‘Justice for democratic Islam critics’ was signed by 53 people (among which were journalists, scientists, engineers, authors and human rights activists, the latter chiefly from Iraq and Iran). In that, it says that honor killings, forced marriage and a basic patriarchal orientation, just as anti-Jewish conspiracy ideologies and lack of respect for a secular democratic societal order, are to be taken seriously and are not marginal phenomena within the Islamic cultural community. For that reason, an undifferentiated general amnesty for all Muslims cannot be allowed.

Alice Schwarzer defended Necla Kelek against the criticism in an article in the FAZ of February 11, 2006, which was reprinted in the feminist monthly Emma, she had bravely broken the silence about a societal taboo.

Kelek argued, among other things, that an Islam is practiced in Germany which has proven to be a hindrance for integration. These mosques are nuclei of a counter-society. They teach the philosophy of another society and practice a life in the spirit of the sharia. Already, the children would learn the separation from the German society.”

Hamed Abdel-Samad agrees with most of Kelek’s views, but is critical about her sometimes polemic language and harsh confrontational style.

Suppose you are siding with Islam which includes 25% Islamists, this means @Simone_De_Beauvoir that your opinion is only worth half compared to mine. If I have to testify in court my testimony will be twice as important as yours. This is the reality of political Islam. So I guess your support only applies to non-Islamist (secular) Islam, right?

I think it’s time that we do not only deal with Islamist terrorism, but also with the large non-militant Islamist movement.

Is provides after all a fertile breeding ground for terrorism.

So here’s a question about the situation in America

How many non-militant Islamists live in the US?
How many Muslims think that secular laws ranks over religious law?

@mattbrowne Very interesting. I believe your examples, don’t worry. You have many more Muslims living in your country compared to your total population than I realized. One reason I am for strict uniforms in school, is because I think children will be glad to have the rule, so they do not face ridicule at school from other students. Takes the burden of the child to go against her parents rules, and simply abide by the school rules.

I wonder what issues have come up in our heavily populated Muslim communities in America?

Why do so many Muslims immigrate to Germany? Is there a particular industry? Did the Germans solicite them for a particular industry?

The war in Afghanistan is about the corporate theft of a country’s natural resources as well as the future enforcement of right-of-ways for western corporate pipelines through Afghanistan. These corporations that are prosecuting this war through the US government, which they have bought outright through lobbyists and campaign financing, do not believe the American taxpayer is sufficiently motivated to foot the bill for this endeavor with their national wealth and life-blood and therefore employ the tried and true method of appealing to the base racial and religious instincts of the latter through the corporate media.

It’s very simple. The American people, who know all of this, do nothing while thousands of their own die, are maimed for life and their treasury is drained into the wars through their elected representatives who in reality work in the interests of these corporations that alone profit from these actions.

@mattbrowne I have no problem addressing both factions, so to speak – however, no one here yelling loudest about ‘protecting the women’ even believes factions within Islam exist.

Recently I read a highly interesting article called

What is the Threat – Islam, Islamism, or Western Sins? (August 23, 2010) by Barry Rubin

which is relevant to our discussion. Here are some excerpts:

“The current debate over the roots of Islamist revolution, clashes in the Middle East, and conflicts between forces in that region and the West involves two critical issues of interpretation:

First, is there a threat to the West from groups whose members are Muslims or does the fault arise from Western policies and shortcomings which, if altered, would make any conflict disappear?

Second, if there is a threat does it stem from Islam as religion or Islamism as political philosophy?

It is important to understand that revolutionary Islamists do draw on mainstream, accepted, and sacred Muslim texts. Their argument has the potential to be just as “legitimate” in believers’ eyes as does the contrary view. At the same time, though, Islam as a religion is not the threat, even though it is the threat’s source and rationale.

The best image to use in order to understand this situation is neither to see the car’s driver (Islam) as inherently bad (as does the “Islam is the threat” camp) or inherently good (the “Islam is a religion of peace” camp). A more accurate view is of a battle over the steering wheel by contenders who both have a claim to ownership. Both may be reckless drivers but the main danger is the Islamists, those who want to run us over and then drive the car and all its passengers over a cliff.

Islamism definitely draws on normative Islam and thus has wide appeal among Muslims. But, likewise, Islamism has many Muslim opponents who don’t accept it as their version of Islam.

There are many who do not want to accept the “Islam is the problem” argument because to do so is depressing (billions of people are against us!) or because it conflicts with their ideological assumptions (one cannot criticize any religion, or at least one that is not your own), or because it can be ridiculously labeled as “racist” (one cannot criticize anyone who isn’t wealthy or Western or “white.”)

These are fallacious arguments. But they don’t prove the “Islam is the problem” approach is correct, any more than do other fallacious arguments, that Islam is “really” a “religion of peace,” or that there is no threat, or that the conflict’s cause is Western sins, prove that revolutionary Islamism isn’t a danger.

Those who deny the nature of the threat often argue that when “properly interpreted” Muslim texts are not “really” radical, violent, and seeking political hegemony. However, one must quickly add that those “proper interpretations” are distinctly minority ones today, even if they predominated forty years ago.

The fact that Muslim texts do give backing to revolutionary Islamists does not mean that all or even most Muslims think that way. What it does reveal, though, is that unless they are going to hear counter-arguments, receive strong leadership by fellow Muslims, or enjoy Western support for fighting revolutionary Islamism they are more likely to think that way over time.

Most Muslims, even today, are not revolutionary Islamists. But in recent decades the current has flowed in that direction. I remember distinctly when a text like the Muhammad Abd al-Salaam Faraj’s book, The Neglected Obligation, calling for a revival of jihad, came out at the end of the 1970s, seemed so marginal. But the revolution in Iran took place in 1979. Then a small group of Egyptian jihadists assassinated President Anwar al-Sadat and launched a guerrilla war. Shortly thereafter, Faraj was captured and executed. Since then, Islamists have steadily gathered steam, despite an apparent decline in the late 1990s, and extended their power and support base.

The task of true moderate Muslims is to change the situation and make the moderate interpretations mainstream. They have a lot of work ahead of them and they are getting all too little support from the West.

Can they hope for success? Certainly. Christianity was an extremist religion in practice a thousand years ago and in some ways until a long time afterward. Of course, one can argue that its accepted texts are peace-oriented and that this religion’s founder, in contrast to Muhammad, opposed violence and a theocratic government. In making such an “obvious” (and factually accurate) argument, however, one must keep in mind that centuries ago such things were not considered obvious at all.

One can expect in the future, probably far in the future, Islam would still have the same founding texts yet will have developed to the point where moderate Islam dominates. That process could take in the Muslim majority world anywhere between 50 to 400 years or so. It is not likely to happen in our lifetimes and it is dangerous to expect otherwise.

Yet that doesn’t mean Islamism will triumph in the mean time. There are counter-identities and ideas among Muslims that block Islamism’s victory. They include the following factors such as ethnic-communal identity, nationalism, and individuality.

People have different priorities and psychologies. They often tend (though less often than people in the West think) to want a stable life having the highest possible living standard and most benefits for their children. We see this does not always work (parents cheering their children becoming suicide bombers) but often does.

One must be careful, though, about basing government policy on this assumption, thinking, for example, more prosperity in the Gaza Strip will make Hamas more moderate or lead to its overthrow. Even aside from the appeals of ideology or religious doctrine, a minority of militants can often persuade or intimidate a much larger body of people to follow them.

(...)

While those Islamists who actively use violence are the most dangerous, those with revolutionary goals are equally Islamist and a threat even if they are not using violence in the present. This, of course, refers to the Egyptian and Jordanian Muslim Brotherhood especially. It is important to understand that the fact that they aren’t actively involved in violent revolution because of moderation but because they fear government repression. Their exact counterparts are Hamas and Hizballah, which are so radical and violent in their practice because they aren’t afraid of their weak rivals, the Lebanese government and the Palestinian Authority respectively.

The basic acceptance of modern forms of belief and behavior often associated with the West. As Arab nationalism and nation-state patriotism is the main barrier to revolutionary Islamism in the Middle East, modernism plays that role among Muslims living in the West. The failure of Western societies to seek energetically an acculturation or assimilation along these lines is thus very dangerous and tends to put radical Islamists in control of the communities. It is an interesting question to what extent “natural” factors, that is the day-to-day experience of living in a modern society with its good (freedom of thought, equality of women) and bad (drugs, alcohol, rampant sex) features is going to transform Muslim communities there. Again, one has to get the balance right. One thing that is clear, however, is that European state practices are inhibiting this process rather than helping it.

Focusing on Islamism as the threat teaches the central importance of allying with genuinely moderate Muslims whose lives and lifestyles are threatened by the radicals. This does not just mean the small number actively trying to “reform” Islam but also the much larger number who just want to be left alone, enjoy freedom, and participate in the benefits of modernity. This analysis, then, demonstrates why it is important to show how Islamism is rooted in genuine mainstream Islam and is not merely some hijacking of a “religion of peace.”

Equally, though, it is vital not to assume that because something can be found in authoritative Muslim texts this tells us that Islam is “inherently” radical. Only by comprehending this can we understand how radicalism may be fought effectively. Both of these points are extraordinarily relevant. If one doesn’t understand the first, disaster will come from passivity, wishful thinking, and actually strengthening revolutionary forces by mistaking them as moderate ones.

Yet if one doesn’t understand the second, all the factors subverting radical Islamism despite its claim to be normative Islam, one won’t know how to proceed strategically and tactically. An additional problem is that one will be written off as extremist by the dominant Western society. It is all right to be brave despite name-calling and delegitimization efforts if one is right, but doesn’t make sense when the analysis itself is not so accurate or helpful.

(...)

The anti-Islam argument can mobilize a small number of courageous defectors from Islam and critics among Muslims, the anti-Islamism argument, however, can ally with millions of Muslims and governments in Muslim-majority countries.

If the Western establishment view would be that Islamism is a big threat and problem, this debate would be less relevant. In recent years, however, the official view of Western governments has moved toward saying that only al-Qaida is the threat and that Islamists can be won over. This is an extremely dangerous position that brands both the “Islam is the threat” and “Islamism is the threat” analyses as “Islamophobic” and dismisses them without serious consideration.

This approach is highly dangerous for Western interests, democracy, and even for the future of millions of Muslims who face death or tyranny at the hands of revolutionary Islamism.

There are real “Islamophobes” in the sense of people who are bigoted. But the number is far tinier than Politically Correct forces claim. “Islamophobia” is a stick used to intimidate anti-Islamism. At any rate, those who are motivated by an irrational hatred of Islam are not the main threat to Western civilization and interests today. That role is played by far more powerful forces that ignore real problems and unintentionally assist revolutionary Islamists at home or abroad.

The “anti-Islam” argument is neither accurate nor strategically useful. The “Islam is a religion of peace and you can’t criticize even radical Islamists” argument is neither accurate nor furthers the survival of Western interests and democracy. What is needed is an “anti-Islamism” approach that also works with moderate Islam, the best alternative in principle yet regrettably weak, and a conservative, traditional non-Islamist Islam, the most practical alternative at this point in history.”

http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/print.php?&ArticleID=6445

@mattbrowne “First, is there a threat to the West from groups whose members are Muslims or does the fault arise from Western policies and shortcomings which, if altered, would make any conflict disappear? Second, if there is a threat does it stem from Islam as religion or Islamism as political philosophy?”

I will answer this for myself since I don’t draw my beliefs from other people’s opinions..

1. Yes, some Muslims do pose a threat to the US (as do other kinds of people) and to a degree, yes (there is a historical perspective people don’t have about what the fault of the US is in this conflict) and at this point, not necessarily (certain things have been put into motion decades ago)
2. The threat is about power disguised as having something to do with Islam as a religion or an ideology (it’s a lot easier to convince people to do things if you use religion as a motivator or any other shady concept…like the ‘war on terrorism’ is used as an excsuse for the wars we’re involved in now).

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – The question is, What do you mean by some Muslims ? The tiny number of terrorists? Or the significant number of Islamist supporters?

Here’s my opinion:

Both terrorists and Islamist supporters are a serious threat. Why?

Because I’m a liberal. I love freedom. I love democracy. I love pluralism. I love diversity. I believe in equal rights. I embrace tolerance. I reject intolerance. And because of this, I don’t ignore real problems and therefore I don’t assist revolutionary Islamists at home or abroad. Alice Schwarzer has my full support and I hope that I can convince more liberals to join me supporting this cause.

@mattbrowne No, the question is not what I mean by some Muslims, the question is what the majority of people here in the US bitching about mean by “All Muslims”. As to the rest of your self-serving solliloquy, it almost sounds like you think that by questioning islamophobia and trying to actually tease out these issues (without ignoring threats) makes one an assistant to revolutionary Islamists. This is delusional.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – If the majority of people in the US are bitching about all Muslims (which I doubt), this doesn’t make the threat by Islamists a delusion.

@mattbrowne I have another curiosity about the circumstance in Germany. When the Muslims first started coming to Germany, were they given a lot of leeway, meaning people welcomed them, tolerated cultural and religious difference well, and then it became more extreme, and Germany has started to put its foot down so to speak? And, do the second and third generations assimilate? Is ot only the new immigrants who are not conforming? Lastly, are Arab Muslims one of your largest minority groups?

@mattbrowne Let me clarify, then – it is a delusion that because you love democracy and tolerance and all that jazz that sounds lofty…you can make judgments and come up with ‘solutions’ as a person of the West about people in a patronizing manner, like you do without first looking at what problems are occuring, instead, where you are…or is the big scary Muslim threat your only concern where you live?

@JLeslie – They came long before the revolution in Iran in 1979. This treaty was signed in 1961

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwerbeabkommen_zwischen_der_Bundesrepublik_Deutschland_und_der_Türkei

and soon after hundreds of thousands of people from Turkey came to Germany. For the first 20 years there were few problems. Factories needed many workers. Turkey was still a true secular state based on

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemal_Attaturk#Modernization_efforts.2C_1931.E2.80.931938

Today more than 50% of Turkish voters support

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdogan

who among other things said the following:

“The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers.”

Erdogan is an Islamist, although he tries to hide this in the meantime. The 48% secular people in Turkey hate him and try to fight him. Often there are very large demonstrations against Islamism in Turkey.

Many of the third and fourth generation immigrants are no longer integrated into society, let alone assimilated. There are not that many new immigrants. The problem are the grandkids of those who came first.

No, Arab Muslims are not one of our largest minority groups. Number 1 are Turkish Muslims followed by all kinds of European nationalities. I’d have to find the exact numbers. There are a lot of people from Lebanon as far as I know.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – You are deliberately changing my words and I resent this. Big scary Muslim threat? I was talking about the big scary Islamist threat. And yes, it’s very real in Germany. Therefore courageous liberal people like Alice Schwarzer are trying to do something about it. Siding with the anti-Islamist Muslims. Especially girls and women. Because they suffer most. But anti-Islamist Turkish men suffer as well. For example when they have a German girlfriend. The Islamists verbally harass them: How can a good Muslim touch an unclean German slut? There are a lot of Turkish intellectuals who are really pissed. They are afraid of the Islamist movement too. As explained by Barry Rubin above.

@mattbrowne I had several Iranian friends growing up, back in the 70’s, and also have worked with many Iranians as well, and none of them were very religious, amd all of them wore strictly western clothing. I wonder what the statistics are in the US? I only notice Arabs and Persians wearing hijabs in the last 10 years in the US, and only in the south. Although, I would guess outside of Detroit they must see it as well, but I never have when I am in or near Detroit and Dearborn.

@JLeslie – Islamism is no problem with the Iranians living in Germany and they are a large number. Almost all of them are anti-Islamist. No headscarves. They left Iran for this very reason.

@mattbrowne You are all over the place. What is it that you’re actually discussing and what is it that you’re proposing? I am a social justice activist and a feminist and I abhor religion being used as an excuse for sexism or terrorism but I do not limit this hatred to only one single Abrahamic faith.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – I’m proposing that we take the Islamist threat seriously. I’m proposing that we don’t limit ourselves to the threat of terrorism. I’m proposing that all feminists learn about the difference between Islam and Islamism. And follow the example of Alice Schwarzer.

As Rubin said: What is needed is an “anti-Islamism” approach that also works with moderate Islam

The source of ignorant Muslim bashing is the ultra-conservative movement. They don’t offer an anti-Islamism approach. They offer ignorance.

When people in Germany read about Islamists saying things like “How can a good Muslim touch an unclean German slut?” this turns some conservatives into ultra conservatives and we should all be very concerned about this. Maybe the same is happening in the US. Let’s end tolerance of intolerance. Islamists are intolerant. Ultra conservatives are intolerant.

@mattbrowne I don’t think any of my words imply that I do not take it seriously. As for what feminists need to learn about, that’s the least of your problems because the majority of people don’t consider themselves such. And you already know my take on that Schwarzer person. As an ally to the NYC Muslim community, I actually do stand alongside Muslims against terrorism (however, I don’t always appreciate the ever-changing categories used by some people like ‘moderate’ to categorize people).

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – I’m glad to hear that none of the members of the NYC Muslim community is an Islamist. And 75% of all Muslims in Germany are not Islamists either. Maybe Islamism is a smaller problem in the US than it is in Europe.

I wonder whether the following article about the situation in the US is a conservative or ultra-conservative view:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/10/the_odyssey_of_islamism_in_america.html

Some 26 percent of American Muslims aged 18–29 support suicide bombings “in defense of Islam,” according to findings of a recent Pew poll.

In tandem with the cold murder of Theo Van Gough in Holland, for instance, Islamists had been striving to supplant civil laws with the Islamic Sharia in the country. In other lands such as France, England, and Canada, Muslims have also been waging serious campaigns for adoption of the Sharia or some of its provisions, just for starters.

In 2001, the Islamic Society of North America published a brochure that was sent to public school teachers and administrators. “You’ve Got a Muslim Child in Your School” spells out some of the basics of Islam and specifies some of the restrictions.

@mattbrowne 26% support suicide bombings, that is shocking to me. Your last paragraph about the brochure for schools, do you find that to be negative? Maybe they just felt it would help teachers have some understanding.

@JLeslie – Yes, I find the brochure extremely negative. It isolates innocent daughters of Islamist fathers in their school communities. And it’s a nightmare for teachers. Very similar brochures exist in Germany as well.

Since you asked about Iran, this might interest you:

Amil Imani is an Iranian-born American citizen and pro-democracy activist residing in the United States of America.

He wrote an article called Why Confront Islamism?

“Because if we don’t it will continue to get more extreme. This is not Islamophobia, as many Muslims and their apologists protest. A phobia is a baseless irrational fear. Detestation of Islamism, the violent form of Islam, is based on irrefutable facts and it is not only rational, it is ethically imperative. It is a virtue to take action to oppose the hateful, vice to ignore it. It is a virtue to hate tyranny, misogyny, discriminations of all sorts, oppression, and all manners of violations of the legitimate rights of the individual and peoples. Islamism is a mutation of Islam into a terrible menace. It is religious fascism, a destroyer of liberty and much of what free people cherish. Therefore, it must be confronted.

Islamism, Islamofascism, radical Islam and political Islam, are different terms for essentially the same thing: a virulent, hateful, and violent system of beliefs and practices. Yet, one and all are progeny of Islam itself. It is a systemic problem of Islam that inevitably gives rise to Islamism. The three scriptures of Islam, the Quran, Islam’s holy book; the Hadith, sayings of Muhammad as recorded by his contemporaries; and the Suna, the life examples of Muhammad himself, together form the body of Islamic beliefs. They provide an array of frequently confusing, multiple-meaning and even outright contradictory dogma that enable anyone to pick and choose certain teachings of Islam and justify anything they do on the basis of the scripture.

The Quran enjoys a sanctified standing, since Muslims believe it is written by Allah himself. Allah handed down the Quran to Archangel Gabriel, chapter by chapter, to deliver to Muhammad over the course of some 22 years. Muhammad could neither read nor write. So Gabriel had to whisper the chapters to him and Muhammad in turn would reveal them to any literate person who happened to be around to write them down on anything he could find. To Muslims, every word of the Quran is a literal perfect immutable eternal word of Allah himself. Therefore, no man or divine is ever to revise, much less dispute, the Quran.

The hodgepodge of Islamic scripture is the medium for generating all kinds of mutations, some of which such as Islamism are extremely dangerous. A segment of any society, at any time, is staffed by people who feel disaffected, alienated, and disenfranchised. It is from the ranks of this population that Islamists heavily recruit. Islamism’s rallying cry is also of particular attraction to the young since it is rabidly anti-establishment. The young lack a major stake in society but brim with action-inclined vitality. They are among the most willing recruits to anti-establishment causes.

(...)

Islamism is rapidly advancing on two fronts. In every Islamic country, it is cowing the non-radicals while recruiting more and more radicals into its own ranks. In non-Muslim lands, flush with Petrodollars, Islamism is establishing itself as a formidable force by enlisting the disaffected and attracting the delusional liberals with its promises. For the faithful, there is the added incentive of Allah’s heaven and its irresistible attractions.

There are those who claim that the majority of Muslims in the world are moderate and non-violent. It may be so. Yet, the silence of this majority is deafening, although, they do speak up from time-to-time by, for instance, claiming that the 9/11 slaughter was the work of the Jews, even when Osama himself proudly admits the dastardly act. This very same Muslim majority pours into the streets of the West on a moment’s notice to protest against the slightest perceived affront to its sanctities, but they never march to condemn the violent acts of the Islamists- or speak up against them. This sort of majority behavior makes it complicit with the Islamists.

In spite of all this, Islam’s apologists and lobbyists want us to accept the notion that the present Islamic radicalism is an aberration that given time will dissipate as have all radical movements of the past. These folk fail to tell us about the radical movements that inflicted horrors on humanity before they expired. Islamism threatens to set a new record for brutality, contrary to the contention that there is no reason to worry about it. Jihadist Wahabism’s tentacles are reaching out from its cradle in Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf Arab Emirates. The Petrodollar flush Sunni zealots are liberally financing mosques, madresehs (Islamic indoctrination schools), Islamic centers at universities, front organizations and lobbyists to promote the Wahabi virulent Islamism in every part of the world.

(...)

It is urgent that we confront Islamism. All free people, Muslim or not, must demand that their governments, at all levels, abandon the practice of political correctness and act to safeguard liberty against the truly deadly assault of Islamism on the rest of the World.”

http://www.amilimani.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=62&Itemid=2

@mattbrowne ” I’m glad to hear that none of the members of the NYC Muslim community is an Islamist.” – I am not friends with every single Muslim in NYC so I, at least, don’t make such a claim. I do not support the spread of Shariah laws either – it is a take on Islam that is feeding on people’s fears, a need for traditionalism in confusing times and a very real (and justified, at times) dislike of the West.

Thanks @Simone_De_Beauvoir !

@mattbrowne Why do I feel like you and I just had sex but you’re the only one that came? Sorry for the crude metaphor, but I am left feeling as if I have no idea what your purpose actually was in pulling at all these disparate topics?

Well i can take this line of thinking from Hitchens, because of his political pedigree, but personally coming from @mattbrowne it makes me queasy, after all weren’t you in support of Haiti being ceded to the United States a la Puerto Rico, and are you not an uncritical, completely unapologetic devotee of capitalism? ... but i bitterly resent this disingenuous use of feminism to split the political left over the Muslim world, how that makes me spit.

@mattbrowne I have to think about the brochure. I assume it is informing the school about rituals, possibly allowing student to pray, cleanliness rituals (I vaguely remember schools in Dearborn, MI putting in foot baths?) and girls covering themselves for swimming and other activities?? If our schools accomodate these things then the pamphlet would be helpful. The big question is should we allow exceptions, and be tolerant of differences? Generally, as I said previously, I like for the school environment to be fairly uniform.

If there are only 3 milliom Muslims more or less in the US, I have seen figures as high as 7 million, that is a fairly small number since we are over 300 million now. But then, Jews are only 7 million, and we seem to have some impact.

Honestly, as an American Jew, maybe I am naive, maybe I have my head in the sand, but I feel in my country moderate Muslims will be the vast majority here, and I am not overly worried about it. I also think the more they are welcomed into our society the more likely they will not be fanatics, and want to be American. But I find the information you have provided interesting.

@JLeslie yes the information is interesting but completely divisive, with all the emphasis on islamofascism with which America has more than enthusiastically supported in the past if it served to keep Soviet influence, or Socialist influence in general, at bay, in fact the very forces that would best serve the emancipation of Women. i mean can you see your average grunt in the barracks festooned with pictures of tits and cunts, head banging each other before the next incursion into Taliban territory, `Right boys let’s do this for the gals! for women’s liberation! DEATH TO SEXISM! OORAH!!!! give me a break. Neo conservatives created this shit, let them clean it up, why should the left get involved?

Around 5% of the population in my home city are Muslims. We also have Sikhs, Hindus, Catholics, Protestants and Jews. We mostly get along very well with one another and it would be nice if it could stay that way. What people of other faiths believe and how they live their lives is up to them. People here have a choice. They can live their lives in whatever way is meaningful to them and as long as they don’t bother me then why should that be an issue. To say that we are liberal and tolerant and they are are not is to be intolerant and illiberal.

How the CIA used anti-communism to extinguish Iran’s Democracy

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Reading your comments again, I think I misunderstood your message. Sorry about that. But I also realized that you don’t understand my message. I’m talking about a political ideology called islamism. The issues are about political power, not religion. Well, sometimes real talks are better than online forums to avoid misunderstandings. I will leave it at that.

@flutherother – I also know many Muslims and we get along very well with one another. Some of them are courageous enough to say, help us, do something about the growing influence of Islamists in Germany. My mother was an elementary school teacher for 40 years. There were no problems with her Muslim students between 1965 and 1980. Then things began to change. And it really got worse from 1990ies on. She has been threatened by Islamist fathers and had to seek help from male teachers. And she also knows many wonderful Muslims, caring parents who want their kids to learn something. She was very sick last year and her doctor is a woman from Iran. The treatments she got were excellent. She also knows women who got a divorce in Germany when their husbands mutated into Islamists. All these women told my mother that most Germans including most politicians don’t understand that Islamism is a serious threat.

I realize that I can’t convince a lot of people here on Fluther, but I won’t give up. Defending the values of free societies and the Age of Enlightenment is far too important to me. Islamists stuck in 7th century thinking can’t take this away. And we have to ally ourselves with all anti-Islamist Muslims who are still the majority in our Western societies.

@mattbrowne I don’t just defend the values of a free society I live them and breathe them and I think it is important to be tolerant towards people with different beliefs even those with extreme views. If they do anything illegal that is a different matter. Battling extremism with extremism is like fighting fire with fire.

Teaching has traditionally been a very well respected profession in Scotland and a teachers word was law. This has changed in recent years and parents are now more inclined to challenge a teacher’s authority. This has led to a breakdown in school discipline. I would not say that this trend has been led by Muslim parents. Many Muslims in Scotland knew poverty in their home countries and they have been willing to work long hours with few holiday in shops and restaurants to make the most of the opportunities here. They wanted their children to enjoy a better life and they understood that a good education was the key to this. They could see that the Scottish educational system was a good one and non discriminatory and they have been keen that their children should benefit from it as much as possible.

When we hear these Muslim children shouting in the streets with broad Scottish accents, so different from ‘English’ accents, they sound like one of us.

@mattbrowne Actually, if you are talking about political power and not religion, then we are talking about the same thing because political power struggles involve the West as well and don’t just single out Muslims as the only problem.

@JLeslie – I don’t like the ideas laid out in this brochure. The islamists are promoting gender apartheid and gender segregation. To me this is as bad as segregation by ethnicity.

@flutherother – No, I don’t tolerate people holding extreme intolerant views. Muslims in general are tolerant. Islamists are not. I’ve got an issue with Islamism not Islam. Christians in general are tolerant. The Christian Right is not. Catholic hardliners are not.

I found a good article as an answer to this question.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Answers and educates, thank you so much. This particularly questions the same thing I was about the timing of this hatred, so late after 9/11:
“As commentator M. Junaid Levesque-Alam astutely pointed out, “When three planes hurtled into national icons, did anger and hatred rise in American hearts only after consultation of Biblical verses?”

And a hearty hell yeah to this: “But O’Reilly and Boykin, who represent the violence, duplicity, and expansionist mind-set of today’s Western crusaders..”, and “as if Anne Coulter is the voice of Christianity.”

Here’s an interesting article published by the Huffington Post about a recent poetry contest:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/22/hissa-hilal-saudi-woman-b_n_508778.html

Assalamualaikum.

I think its all simple.

It all has to do with the US govt. getting along with the Jewish media and creating a negative image of Islam and in the name of war against terror killing many innocent lives for the current most important asset for any country in the world : OIL

Watch these videos.

video 1

video 2

Is terrorism a Muslim monopoly

@syed_shaji mentioned the Jewish media as a cause of anti-muslim sentiment.

The mainstream media are not owned or control by the Jews. That is a foolish old myth. Many Jews like myself trust and respect Muslims and reject claims that others may make that suggest Islam is a religion that promotes hate and violence.

My pharmacist is Muslim woman and I place my life and health in her hands all the time with no fear. I respect her and am grateful she and her family have moved to our town. I will do everything I can to share my trust and respect for her with my neighbour and friends in town.

We can and should do everything we can to promote better understanding among the Jews and Muslims. We are all descendants of Abraham. We all believe in the one G_d and the name we use is merely a difference of language.

We must not generalize from isolated but well publicized incidents to draw false conclusions about Jews and Muslims. We have far more in common than we have differences. Salaam and Shalom.

@Dr_Lawrence I missed that he blamed the Jews. That’s so upsetting to me. I have only had wonderful interactions with Muslims living here in America. Religion has never been an issue for me with any Muslim I have ever met. I played with Muslim friends when I was little, worked with them, and continue to have friends and acquaintances and religion is a complete nonissue. We have had Jewish jellies in the past defend a Muslim’s right to wear a hijab, and I think we as Jews understand being in the minority position.

Assalamualaikum.

My apologies if I hurt the sentiments of any of the Jewish brother/sister. I didn’t mean to blame the entire community as I myself know many Jewish people who are very good and who help Muslims out,who live peacefully with the Muslims and who even oppose the occupation. I only blame those handful of Jews who control the Media.

@syed_shaji I appreciate that you don’t think of all Jewish people that way, but we don’t control the media. There are a lot of Jewish people in media, that is true, but some of the most conservative stations on TV in America, which have the least tolerance for Muslims, are chanels like Fox news that is decidedly Christian, primarily pandering to the Christian right wing of America. It was founded by an Australian-American man Rupert Murdoch. I would never say all Christians are antiMuslim or that Fox news specifically is against Muslims, but their people and their followers of the station are more likely to have a narrow view regarding Muslims, and Jews too for that matter, in the sense that they are very Christian centric about America. Regarding Israel they are extremely supportive of Israel.

@JLeslie Thanks for the information. I will look into it as well.

Most Jewish people in America lean liberal, care about civil rights for everyone, have higher educations compared to the average, and live in diverse cities. All of this means they are likely to be more worldly, less racist, care about equality, have more interactions with people from many different backgrounds, and Jewish people have consistently fought for civil rights for all people throught American history, especially in the last 60 years.

Assalamualaikum.

I answered to the question without having a look at the previous answers. Later on saw some of the answers by @mattbrowne and man! I have never seen a person much more afraid of Islam than Matt in my life. May peace be on you brother.

I have seen in one of your answers that you mentioned a verse of the Quran which had the translation of one of the sentences as men superior than women, that’s a mistranslation . I will answer to that misconception brother InshaAllah by tomorrow (because I am kind of busy right now).

Assalamualaikum to all.

@mattbrowne for the correct translation and explanation of the verse of the Quran’s chapter 4 verse 34 please go here and here