Social Question

ETpro's avatar

Next time you fly, TSA porno-photo or prurient-pat-down?

Asked by ETpro (34469points) November 23rd, 2010

You generally get to choose. Generally, with the new TSA security procedures, you only have to get the pat down if you refuse the photo full-body scan, or if the scan flags something that looks suspicious. So assuming its up to you, which one would you opt for?

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155 Answers

marinelife's avatar

Reluctantly, the pat-down.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

Gee, what incredible options…I’ll do the pat-down.

Summum's avatar

The pat down though I hope that someone stands up to this and stops it. It is getting ridiculous and intrusive.

muppetish's avatar

The photos creep me out. As awkward as the pat-downs seem, I’ll opt for one next time I fly.

iamthemob's avatar

Pat down. In full view of the public.

I may opt to offer to get completely naked in front of everyone. That would prove I’m totally safe. And they’re totally ridiculous.

FutureMemory's avatar

The pat down includes “touching of the breasts and genitals”? What the fuck, yo?!? GENITALS?

erichw1504's avatar

I’d like a pat down please. Be sure to check my junk twice!

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

But it’s not called a “pat down”, it’s a “feel up”.

syz's avatar

I doubt it’s prurient (the pat down or the picture). Have you seen what most Americans look like? More likely an onerous duty.

Blackberry's avatar

Is there something I don’t know about the body scan? Is it dangerous?

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

Are they allowed to do this to children?

iamthemob's avatar

@Blackberry – Officially it’s perfectly safe. Officially…so were a lot of things. ;-)

Any risk associated with it may be a product of general paranoia, but I’d rather err on the side of safety.

My concern is more along the lines of the fact that (1) there’s no way to guaranty that the images don’t get stored, and (2) they show a lot more information than I think is appropriate for the scan.

ucme's avatar

Pat Down, nice woman…friend of my Mums. Yeah i’ll have that please, only I must insist on having Pee Wee do it. La La La ha ha ha :¬)

ANef_is_Enuf's avatar

Don’t plan on flying. Maybe ever again.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

There’s a guy who has invented a very thin metal insert that goes in the underwear that can be worn to cover your nads. The one for the guys is in the shape of a fig leaf, for the women a pair of hands. The metal is thin enough it doesn’t set of the metal detector. My guess is TSA goes bat shit over that too.

Blackberry's avatar

@iamthemob Well, I’m really ticklish, so….....I’d rather someone look at my junk lol.

Cruiser's avatar

I am feeling photogenic and when I fly in January I will have a tinfoil reproduction of this taped to my chest for my big XRay! Yes that will be me on YouTube being wrestled to the ground! XD

trailsillustrated's avatar

the scanner jeez just go people!

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

And this adds a twist.

Frankie's avatar

Scanner. To a certain extent, I’m okay with an unknown person in a back room seeing a photo. I’m not okay with being touched rather intimately by a complete stranger in front of other people. Thankfully I do not think I’ll be flying anytime soon.

josie's avatar

Out of curiosity last weekend, I refused the scanner and took the pat down. The Fourth Amendment question aside, it was no big deal.

Dr_Dredd's avatar

I’m flying to Chicago tomorrow, and I plan to take the pat-down. As @iamthemob said, “official” claims that the machines are safe are not worth much without actually seeing the data. And I doubt that would be released.

So, until proven otherwise, I’m avoiding the scanners.

wundayatta's avatar

I almost never fly, so this is so, so theoretical to me. I’d probably go for the tech approach. If someone thinks of me as a porno-thriller, more power to ‘em.

wgallios's avatar

I’d do the scanner, I dont really care if they see me x-rayed ;p

like @wundayatta said, If I’m whats doin it for them, well than good on ya

Aster's avatar

Pat down, mostly out of curiosity !! and fear of radiation.

daytonamisticrip's avatar

I really don’t care. I’d do both as long as I don’t miss my flight. It makes flying a little more safer from terrorists.

christos99's avatar

I would do both… either way, I have other problems to worry about :-)

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

The fact that we must endure such extreme security measures means the terrorists have already won the war.

JustJessica's avatar

I think both options are both safe and needed! I don’t know about you but I would rather not get blown up or have any of my family members blown up while flying. Until we have another way to check for explosives this will have to do. Although I would have a problem with the pat down when it comes to children.

The amount of radiation your exposed to with the full body scan is actually 1/1000 of the amount your exposed to in a normal chest x-ray. So unless your a daily commuter, or say a pilot, you should be safe.

GracieT's avatar

My husband and I are flying into S America (Argentina) in February. I shudder to think of what we will have to go through when we go! Does anyone know what people who are returning from another country are faced with?

iamthemob's avatar

Considering the ridiculous disparity in the deaths associated with air travel as opposed to car travel, I would think that required installation of breath-locking systems on all cars, as well as random tests to determine if you’re too tired to drive, and background checks for people buying a car.

This would increase our safety so much more than the nekkid scanner – but I believe that “terrorists” have to be potentially involved for us to be fine with increasing invasions of privacy.

bob_'s avatar

@GracieT The scanners or pat-downs are used before flying. You’d go through them when you fly from the US to Argentina. On your way back, you will go through security in Argentina, but not after your land (unless you have to take a connecting flight, in which case you’d have to go through the regular screening process).

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

I’m going to take this opportunity to express some very politically incorrect perspectives.

We could alleviate much of these security measures by reinstating a thorough profiling system. Call it racial profiling if you wish, I don’t care. I call it Criminal Profiling, and it would specifically prevent a family, or a child, or a little old lady from being foisted into a needless knee jerk system that only serves to chase problems after the fact rather than actually do anything to address the source if the problem.

It’s absolutely ridiculous where we’ve taken this.

The criminals fit a profile. There is nothing racist about that. My teenage children and I don’t fit the profile and neither do 99.99999% of other people. May as well just wave the white flag and surrender because a few single traveling men with middle eastern connections had the protection of the politically correct on their side allowing them to put a bomb in their diaper.

Have we lost our minds?

Ivan's avatar

@Adirondackwannabe I’ll get one in the shape of a giant penis.

JustJessica's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies What do criminals look like then? Terrorists come in a array of colors… So I don’t think anyone really knows what criminals look like.

DominicX's avatar

I’d have to see just how invasive the pat-down really is, because I’m not all that sure. I’ve heard a lot about how they grab your genitals and it’s so violating, but I don’t really know how it’s done. I’ve seen the photos from the X-rays and yeah, they’re kind of creepy, but still, it’s just an anonymous scan; it’s not like it’s going on the internet and being viewed by all. I’m not a big fan of either, but I’m not opposed to them.

My uncle works for TSA and I was going to ask him about his experiences, but my cousin said my uncle is relieved to admit that he only checks baggage and not people. :P

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Can you show me the “array of colors” that you speak of for airline terrorist threats @JustJessica ? I can only find ones that look like this. And unless we are ready to admit that and face the truth about this situation, our airport security will soon turn into (NSFW) this.

Ivan's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

What percentage of people who “look like that” do you think are actually terrorists?

Summum's avatar

@Ivan

That is not what he is saying I think what his point is to do the extra security on those that fit the profile.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Very few. But there’s much more to profiling than what someone looks like. Travel patterns, the single male traveler could easily be interviewed first, and extra security measures could follow after the interview.

NPR yesterday was investigating other airport security systems. Israel interviews people three times before they get on the plane. No serious questions either, simple “When’s and Where’s”, but they are trained to notice body languages and response emotions very well. In those cases, put them under the extra-ordinary scrutiny.

Jude's avatar

Scanner

Ivan's avatar

@Summum

I know very well what his point is. He claims that we should profile because we are inconveniencing the vast majority of the public, people who would never be terrorists. However, the vast majority of middle easterners are not terrorists either, and they would be just as inconvenienced. Why is it okay to inconvenience them, just because they happen to have the same skin color as the incredibly small handful of people who turn out to be terrorists?

This, of course, ignores the existence of non-middle eastern terrorists.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

That’s all well and good, but that isn’t what you have been proposing. You have been proposing racial profiling.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

You know how the secular world adores claiming that religion is bad because a few priests molest children? It puts a black cloud over the entire church, and until the church itself stands up in protest, actively routing out the offenders, then the church will wear the black cloud.

Same logic applies for any race with an over abundant share in the terrorist problem. It’s not a matter of inconveniencing muslims. It’s a matter of all muslim nations standing together and actively routing out their own trouble makers. They can say it’s not me all they want, just like Hitlers henchmen did. But we are all culpable to the actions of our people. Claiming innocence is not enough.

bob_'s avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies @Summum @Ivan See some interesting articles here and here. Also check out what Wikipedia says.

faye's avatar

Either or both, even make me have each twice if it means more safety.

Ivan's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

So until that happens, we’re perfectly justified in singling out brown people?

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

You’re not listening Ivan. Again, there is more to profiling than simply determining a persons race or color.

If we could just be honest with ourselves, we’d see this isn’t so out of line. We profile all the time, instinctively. It is part of being human.

All bankers aren’t bad people because of a few bad bankers. But all bankers live under the haunt of being perceived that way in the majority public eye until all bankers set upon themselves to actively route out the bad bankers before it’s too late.

All Homosexuals aren’t bad people because of NAMBLA. But all Homosexuals live under the haunt of being perceived that way by many in the public eye until all Homosexuals set upon themselves to actively route out NAMBLA before it’s too late.

Just today the report came out stating the gulf between the educational levels of Black Boys and White Boys. The statistics are staggering and appalling. Shall I call it racial profiling if I acknowledge those statistics? I think we’d all be best served to accept the truth for what it is, and in truth, move forward together with the intentions of making the world a better place for everyone… even at the expense of hurting someone’s feelings at the risk of political incorrectness.

Seaofclouds's avatar

Because I’m pregnant right now, I would opt for the pat down, because while they say the scanners are safe, they are way too new for my and my baby to be their test dummies.

Once I’m not pregnant, scanner it is.

iamthemob's avatar

This chart should be helpful to get a clear idea on the issue. There are also significant portions of U.S. attacks that can be attributed to domestic terrorism as well as hate groups and nationalistic groups (including those groups representing Palestinian interests – which is more specifically related to the political debacle surrounding Israel) that mix up the racial, ethnic as well as travel patterns of individuals to significantly reduce the usefulness of any profiling (see a list here).

If you look at the statistics, 6% of terrorist attacks can be related to Islamic extremism in the U.S., and yet profiling would inevitably take account of those from the Middle East more than other groups. Additionally, the vast majority of attacks have nothing to do with airports…the vast majority. The numbers don’t really allow for any sensible profiling to be done, considering the volume of air travel and it’s relative importance as a terrorist target.

I fully support airport security measures. But when they seem to be more about fear and racism rather than utility, I would like them addressed.

Summum's avatar

@Ivan

Then you think what America did to the Japanese was wrong when the World War broke out?

iamthemob's avatar

@Summum – Are you talking about what ended in the internment of 110,000 people of Japanese descent?

I’m going to throw out that yes…that was incredibly wrong.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

I can’t even find the United States on that chart you referenced @iamthemob. And it seems a bit dated ending in 2001.

As to the domestic terrorists, I don’t deny they exist, but the article should be more careful to separate actual terrorism from mental psychosis.

The Virginia Tech incident was not terrorism.
“Virginia special justice declared Cho mentally ill and ordered him to attend treatment”

As well, perhaps I missed it, but I didn’t see any domestic terrorist cases that involved airlines.

iamthemob's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies – Do you consider those who are willing to commit suicide in the name of jihad to be mentally stable individuals?

- the U.S. is the tiny little line at the top – put your mouse on the chart and you can see the countries.

- the chart doesn’t end at 2001 – 2001 is the last marked line because it starts in 1971 and goes in 10-year increments, so the next marked line won’t be until statistics are in for 2011.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Those that give them the orders do. The VT killer didn’t have a boss, didn’t go to training camp, wasn’t promised paradise for his actions, and isn’t considered a hero by his parents or homeland.

iamthemob's avatar

Neither did the Unabomber, but he had a specific terrorist agenda.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

I’m not denying the existence of home grown terrorists. Which one has blown himself up on an airplane?

bobbinhood's avatar

I will take the pat-down. I am not at all convinced that the scanners are safe. I also will not be flying again after this Christmas. If I had known this would happen, I would have bought a train ticket instead, but I can’t afford to buy it now that I already have the plane ticket. These scans and pat-downs are not making us safer. I refuse to fly as long as the government thinks flying authorizes them to violate my civil liberties.

ducky_dnl's avatar

The scanner. I don’t like being touched.

Kardamom's avatar

Probably the pat down. I don’t mind the nakedness part, I just don’t like the idea of having X-rays for health reasons. No problem just taking off my clothes in a curtained off area with a same sex “looker”. Not much different than going to the doctor. But if I’m willing to strip down, I definitely don’t want anyone touching. Unless Alan Rickman is the screener!

augustlan's avatar

[mod says] A (NSFW) warning has been added to a link, via internal edit.

iamthemob's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies – the vast majority of any and all terrorist attacks have nothing to do with airplanes. Consider the data from the 2009 NCTC Report – the vast majority are armed attacks and on-ground suicide bombings in conflict regions…further, the percentage of Muslim victims tops 50%.

Airline attacks are by far the least significant of attacks, as the FBI statistics show.

The point is that the security is not security – it’s patronizing. If we’re focusing on making something airtight in terms of security when it counts for about .001% of the entire spectrum of violence of it’s kind…what are we really doing?

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

Before you answer that you’d rather have the scan done, you need to be aware that despite the claim that all the scans are deleted from the system, the pictures are being saved and they are out there, circulating the internet and there is currently a lawsuit because of it. Pictures of the scanned bodies are NOT being deleted, and they have made their way into the public eye.

And they are NOT just the simple xrays like some of you think they are. It’s an actual body scan, they can see breasts and penises on these things. You really want to trust these yahoos to delete your picture when people are already suing for their own leaked images? http://boingboing.net/2008/10/24/what-the-tsas-new-bo.html

I’d rather be felt up than worry that my scan will be available for everyone and their fucking dog to look at.

Seaofclouds's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate Are the images labeled as to who they are though? I have seen what they look like and unless there is something saying this is Jane Doe, I really don’t see what the big deal is about them being kept. If they are labeled as who they are, that’s wrong, but I really don’t get the big concern over the images being stored. For the one you posted a link to, I can think of at least 15 women that could fit that body type. Just by picture alone, we don’t know who it is.

Zaku's avatar

Can you request what gender or sexual orientation gets to feel you up?
How about if the passenger gets to pick which of the available minimum-wage TSA grunts has to feel them up?

Better idea: How about if you could choose the security level you want to book?

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

I don’t doubt what you say @iamthemob. They have won when they get us swatting gnats, for we only risk hitting ourselves.

Blackberry's avatar

I’d take the pat down if it’s a woman.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

@Seaofclouds What does it matter if it has your name on it? How would you feel if you just happened upon a naked picture of yourself and you recognized it as yourself?

Even one of the TSA agents who went through the scanner to test it out was so disturbed by the image of his naked body AND one of his coworkers commented on the size of his penis, that this guy ended up decking his coworker. The photos are THAT detailed. It’s disgusting and a total invasion of privacy.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

How about we get a membership type arrangement. I know this sounds silly, but a speed pass type of arrangement. My Office Depot has me listed with a rewards card and all I have to do is wave it in front of the register and they know everything they need to know about me.

It wouldn’t be out of line for people to be pre-screened to lower the necessity for deep scrutiny on a consistent basis later on.

nikipedia's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies: Weird, I thought terrorists winning involved a lot more, I dunno, terror. And death.

I’ll be going for the feel-up. Radiation worries me.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

When they change our way of life to suit their fear tactics, they have won.

Checking into the airport has become a virtual police state. And we do it to fulfill their agenda, not ours.

Seaofclouds's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate It doesn’t bother me. I have no issues with my naked body being seen on a screen by some stranger. If I saw a picture that I thought was myself, I wouldn’t care. I wouldn’t go making a big deal out of it for everyone else to know it was me. I would actually think that the chances of it actually being me are quite small and that I was just projecting that it was me for some reason.

From my understanding, the person that sees the picture is in a different area, they aren’t right there where you are. The reason I asked if the name was on it is because that would identify it. If it’s not identifiable, which I really don’t think these really are, then I don’t see the issue. Like I said about the one you posted, I can think of at least 15 women that could fit that body type. I’m sure a lot of us could think of more than one person it could be. We have no way of knowing who it is.

The issue with the TSA agent is a bit different because someone he knew that knew it was him said shit to him about it. I’m willing to bet the guy that made the comment is the same guy that would make comments about other guys in a public shower/bathroom too.

DominicX's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

So it’s up to “regular Muslims” to get rid of extremists and terrorists so the public doesn’t perceive all Muslims that way? I happen to think the burden is on the public to learn to not see all Muslims that way.

daytonamisticrip's avatar

Anyone who has a problem with the full body scanners because you don’t want someone to see your naked body ask yourself what is more important, your life or your privacy.

bob_'s avatar

@Seaofclouds Pics or it never happened.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

The burden is already on the public @DominicX. And the only thing we get from that is loss of freedom and huge hassles.

Seaofclouds's avatar

@bob_ You’d need my husbands computer and the password for the folder to see pics. He put the password on it because he didn’t want other people seeing them. ;-)

DominicX's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

And it should remain that way. Muslims don’t need to prove that they’re not terrorists. People need to stop assuming that they all are or might be.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

“So it’s up to “regular Muslims” to get rid of extremists and terrorists so the public doesn’t perceive all Muslims that way?”

Just like it’s up to “regular Catholics” to get rid of abusive priests so the public doesn’t perceive all Catholicism that way.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Just like it’s up to “regular bankers” to get rid of abusive bankers so the public doesn’t perceive all bankers that way.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

“Muslims don’t need to prove that they’re not terrorists.”

What are you talking about? We’re all being invaded and hassled to prove we’re not terrorists.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

@Seaofclouds It’s not that I’m actually afraid my neighbor would recognize my body so much, it’s more the principle of the thing. It’s invasive and just plain wrong. If I wanted people to see me naked, I’d walk around unclothed. And if they have kids go through these things, I’m even more horrified and disgusted.

DominicX's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

Your comparison is wrong. The Catholic priests are all united within the Catholic church. They are employed by the Catholic church and answer to the Vatican. Therefore it is up to the Catholic church as an organization to route out pedophile priests. Extremist Muslims and abusive bankers do not necessarily have anything to do with other Muslims and bankers. Islam as a religion has already made it clear that terrorists acts are not part of their religion. They really don’t have to do anything more. People either listen or they don’t.

iamthemob's avatar

@daytonamisticrip – the question you have to ask before that is “what chance is there that, if we drop this procedure, I will be killed?” or “How much does this actually increase the efficacy of airport security?”

Just because it seems to make you safer, and they tell you it does, doesn’t mean that it actually does it (see the several links to the Israeli approach to airport security above).

Seaofclouds's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate And that is why you can choose a pat down. You have a choice just like the rest of us. If I wasn’t pregnant, I’d go through the scanner. A picture is less invasive than someone patting me down in my opinion.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

“Islam as a religion has already made it clear that terrorists acts are not part of their religion.”

There are different interpretations of Islam just as there are different interpretations of Catholicism. The non fringe has a responsibility to oust the fringe in any organization, otherwise they all risk wearing the perceived badge of fringe.

DominicX's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

So you think homosexuals are an “organization”?

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

@Seaofclouds Oh sure, so someone can grope my breasts and rub my genitals? I have the choice of either letting them look at me naked, or groping me? Neither of those is a decent option.

To come to a point in our history where we have to be stripped and fondled before we can get on an airplane is pretty fucking pathetic.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Any group @DominicX. And yes, there are Homosexual Organizations that are on the fringe. I would hope non-fringe Homosexuals would unite to stand against this and do whatever they possibly could to assist in stopping it.

DominicX's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

I honestly think it has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuals. It’s up to everyone to get rid of groups like that. It’s up to the public to stop lumping people together with people who have nothing to do with them.

rooeytoo's avatar

If a group of 65 year old, 5’ tall white women go around taking down planes, suicide bombing and doing other nasty acts, I fit that profile and would expect to be eyed suspiciously and viewed as a potential member of the gang. It would be annoying if I am among the majority of that group who are innocent old ladies, but what can I do, I fit the profile and it is the duty of the government to protect its citizens. I do believe that is a government duty (not banning a new alcopop because I might get drunk and hurt myself).

So it is in this case, @RealEyesRealizeRealLies – I am with you on this one. No reason for all people to be delayed because of political correctness or fear of cries of racism.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

I think Man/Boy love has a great deal to do with Homosexuality. And though you are correct that everyone must stand against it, it would go a long way to promote positive public opinion if the Homosexual community lead the charge with great ferocity.

poisonedantidote's avatar

I won’t fly through any place that has scanner machines (in europe there are still some airports without scanner). But if i had to, it would be the pat-down, while I say over and over again “please daddy no, not my special area”.

DominicX's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

I said homosexuals, not homosexuality. What I meant is that I, as a homosexual, have nothing to do with NAMBLA. It is not my business to prove to people that I am not affiliated with them. I would stand against them because I am opposed to them, but I would do that whether or not I was homosexual and it wouldn’t matter.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

A little old lady should not have to prove she’s not a terrorist. Neither should a child.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

I get your point @DominicX. Are you denying what I said is also true?

”...it would go a long way to promote positive public opinion if the Homosexual community lead the charge with great ferocity.”

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Not to mention that the terrorist issue would be defeated much quicker if Muslims everywhere made it their most important mission to route them out and expose them everywhere they are found.

Sure we’re all trying to do something. But some could be more involved than others. You don’t need to involve my family in this. Stop acting like you do.

Mikewlf337's avatar

Well I think sometimes we have to understand what is necessary to keep terrorist from successfully targeting an airliner. I wouldn’t like it either but I would rather someone see me naked or pat me down before I become a victim of a terrorist attack while flying.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

I’ve said my piece. Have fun with this. No hard feelings.

DominicX's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

I’m sure it would help, but it’s not our duty and we don’t need to do it just because we’re homosexual.

iamthemob's avatar

I’m with @DominicX on this one – when one type or person is grouped together and identified with the other type, it is neither within his or her power nor is it his or her responsibility to dispel the prejudice of the person identifying them as such.

We do our best, of course, but it’s those who are in the majority who need to realize what they’re doing, and how damaging it is.

I think Man/Boy love has a great deal to do with Homosexuality. And though you are correct that everyone must stand against it, it would go a long way to promote positive public opinion if the Homosexual community lead the charge with great ferocity.

This statement, of course, is obscene. Gay men have always differentiated themselves from pedophiles – but people refuse to believe them because of the vast amount of misinformation propagated by church and conservative organizations.

Pedophilia has been psychologically distinct from general sexual orientations for some time now. The statement you make about this is as ridiculous as saying that it’s up to the straight community to lead the charge to convince us that hetero men don’t like to have sex with six-year-old girls. It’s the straight community where pedophilia is located, and the straight community who spreads misinformation about a link between the two.

To suggest that any member of a minority group has not attempted to separate his or her self from prejudicial and bigoted thoughts about what they believe or who they are is perhaps the most profound example of ignorance. Of course we do…but you have to listen.

Winters's avatar

Porn shoot baby, oh sweet revenge… >=D

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

While I appreciate your links @iamthemob, and share your concern that the Catholic church has attempted to divert their crimes to the Homosexual community, that has nothing to do with NAMBLA…

The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) was formed in 1978. It was inspired by the success of a campaign based in Boston’s gay community to defend against a local witchhunt.

We can ignore the black clouds attached to our sunshine all we want. We can claim misinformation and disinformation all we want. But the fact remains, the black cloud won’t dissolve until those those enjoying the sunshine do something about it themselves, first and foremost, themselves.

iamthemob's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies – (1) I can’t believe that received a great answer (2) your source is NAMBLA itself. I would ask you to find an organization representing the gay community that doesn’t distance being gay from any associations with pedophilia (GLAAD shows exactly how gays have been harmed by such rhetoric as this).

A fringe group will often attempt to associate itself with a valid civil rights movement. It’s hardly gays, who have been discriminated against by the federal and state legal system with statutes such as DOMA, who are enjoying the sunshine. Again…we’re doing the work. You, it seems, are not.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

That’s a great organization. I hope they get the ears they deserve to spread their message.

Seaofclouds's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate Did you see the question asked the other day about what people’s personal experience with a pat down was like? From what everyone wrote, no one was groped or fondled.

I get that you don’t like the idea, but you do have other options than flying as well. No one said you have to get on a plane.

Edited to add link to the question.

iamthemob's avatar

But since you only pointed out NAMBLA’s own website, and claimed that it was evidence that the gay movement associated itself to the goals of pedophiliacs, I’ll also point out gay response to pedophilic assocations by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, as well as PFLAG.

Do you have any other references? Or do you stand by your previous assertions?

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

@Seaofclouds Yes, I saw that question. I also saw reports from other people who talked about having their genitals rubbed and patted. And I saw a several women on the news, reporting that they had indeed been groped, and one lady said the agent who did her “pat down” ran her hands up the victim’s leg so hard that it lifted her foot off the ground.

That’s not a safety pat down; that’s just disgusting and completely unnecessary.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

”...and claimed that it was evidence that the gay movement associated itself to the goals of pedophiliacs…”

Please do not misrepresent my comments @iamthemob.

Summum's avatar

I for one am saddened by the fact more and more control over our lives is taking place and less and less freedoms are being enjoyed. This new security is totally uncalled for and it is another ploy to use national security as a means to get more control.

DerangedSpaceMonkey's avatar

They can pat me down if they at least buy me dinner first. Otherwise, I will feel cheap and dirty.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

You’re only reinforcing my point @iamthemob. It’s obvious that the NGLTF and others are going out of their way to disassociate themselves from organizations like NAMBLA. I would hope their message comes through loud enough that it could actually assist in exposing acts of pedophilia.

This is exactly what I’m suggesting for the Muslim community. No need to start defending Gays here. I’m not against them or any non-extremist group. But all you’re doing is demonstrating a working model that I suggest the Muslims follow. I wish these voices you point out could be heard by everyone, but they’re not.

iamthemob's avatar

This was what you posted:

While I appreciate your links @iamthemob, and share your concern that the Catholic church has attempted to divert their crimes to the Homosexual community, that has nothing to do with NAMBLA…

The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) was formed in 1978. It was inspired by the success of a campaign based in Boston’s gay community to defend against a local witchhunt. [linked to the NAMBLA site]

You posted earlier:

I think Man/Boy love has a great deal to do with Homosexuality.

When you say that the two have a great deal to do with each other, and then post the links you do, how is that not claiming that the gay movement associates itself with pedophilia?

Regardless, if I did, I apologize…but you still did not answer my question as to your assertions regarding the fact that we haven’t, as a community, attempted to lead the charge. Though the message was there, you claimed that we hadn’t been doing so. And then you state that you hope the message comes through – when this has always been the message. If it’s a working model, why did you claim that the gay community wasn’t doing this.

Because the majority isn’t listening. You can find plenty of anti-violence Muslim communities if you listen, like here, here, and individuals speaking out here.

So how are you proving anything but the fact that, even when the minority groups shouts from the rooftops it’s contrary views, the majority has many more voices attributing the fringe group’s goals with that of the entire (or the perceived entire) minority group?

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

”...why did you claim that the gay community wasn’t doing this.”

I never said that. Please reread/reconsider my comments.

“I think Man/Boy love has a great deal to do with Homosexuality.”

It does. But pedophilia doesn’t, and NAMBLA isn’t technically promoting pedophilia. The organization is not promoting having sex with minors. It seeks to release minors from their designation of minors, allowing them to have legal sexual relations with older men. It’s good to see so many in the Homosexual community are speaking out against this. If it didn’t have anything to do with Homosexuality, then they wouldn’t bother.

”...even when the minority groups shouts from the rooftops it’s contrary views, the majority has many more voices…”

It’s not the rooftops friend. It’s a few websites and newsletters. We can only hope that such a grass roots effort will get the mainstream media attention that it deserves. Discussion such as this will promote that goal.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

shall i now wait for the Catholics and bankers to provide me with links to demonstrate their efforts in fighting misnomers?

Fact… We all have fringe elements to deal with. The public perception judges us all guilty by association. It is up to each individual to do what they can to destroy that association to the best of their abilities. The best way to do that is to do more than speak out against it. The best way to destroy false associations is to expose the problem, route it out at all costs.

bob_'s avatar

So… how about them Cowboys?

faye's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate I find the woman’s picture in your link to barely look human- more like a pod person. The pat down should be a totally professional thing and @josie‘s sure sounded so. I prefer the scanner but would have no problem with the side of a professional’s hand push against my clothed genital area to make sure that’s all it is, and boobs? who cares? Most young women have half of each boob on display most of the time anyway!

iamthemob's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies: You claim that I needed to re-read your comments to determine that you hadn’t said that the gay community hadn’t attempted to speak out against NAMBLA, so here we go:

Your statements -

All Homosexuals aren’t bad people because of NAMBLA. But all Homosexuals live under the haunt of being perceived that way by many in the public eye until all Homosexuals set upon themselves to actively route out NAMBLA before it’s too late.

That’s a claim that homosexuals had not attempted to do so, and therefore should bear the responsibility of being perceived as being “bad” because of NAMBLA.

The non fringe has a responsibility to oust the fringe in any organization, otherwise they all risk wearing the perceived badge of fringe.

The same.

I would hope non-fringe Homosexuals would unite to stand against this and do whatever they possibly could to assist in stopping it.

The same – suggesting we hadn’t.

And though you are correct that everyone must stand against it, it would go a long way to promote positive public opinion if the Homosexual community lead the charge with great ferocity.

Same.

But the fact remains, the black cloud won’t dissolve until those those enjoying the sunshine do something about it themselves, first and foremost, themselves.

Same.

I don’t think I’ve done anything to misinterpret you based on the above.

However, just now, you state:

It’s good to see so many in the Homosexual community are speaking out against this. If it didn’t have anything to do with Homosexuality, then they wouldn’t bother.

It’s not because it has nothing to do with homosexuality – it’s because it’s been used as the smear campaign against homosexuals. We try to deny it, but that depends upon people listening to us.

But immediately, after saying “Good job,” you say:

It’s not the rooftops friend. It’s a few websites and newsletters. We can only hope that such a grass roots effort will get the mainstream media attention that it deserves. Discussion such as this will promote that goal

I’ll assume this is more about the Muslim movement as opposed to the gay one. However, again – those were samples. The gay community has been shouting about pedophilia for about 40 years – and you seemed to think that there wasn’t strong opposition to the prejudicial association put forth in the media and by powerful conservative and church organizations.

And finally:

Fact… We all have fringe elements to deal with. The public perception judges us all guilty by association. It is up to each individual to do what they can to destroy that association to the best of their abilities. The best way to do that is to do more than speak out against it. The best way to destroy false associations is to expose the problem, route it out at all costs.

But you say the work is mostly on our end. It’s not. You need to find out where and when we speak and listen to us – because the majority voice is more than willing to stereotype.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

“to determine that you hadn’t said that the gay community hadn’t attempted to speak out against NAMBLA”

Thanks for the bold type. It makes it much easier to see that I never once said the the gay community hadn’t attempted to speak out against NAMBLA. It makes it clear that I only suggested that they do so, and that by doing so, it would go a long way to promoting a positive public perception. Your links confirming that are much appreciated.

“But you say the work is mostly on our end. It’s not. You need to find out where and when we speak and listen to us…”

If someone doesn’t hear me, is it because they aren’t listening, or is it because my message isn’t being communicated to them effectively? If I want someone to hear me, I go to them. I certainly won’t sit back expecting my arena to fill, and then when my message doesn’t get the attention it deserves, blame it on those who didn’t show up to hear it.

PR101: Go out and get em’!

faye's avatar

@Seaofclouds Thanks and I agree with you and your baby not going through- never too safe when pregnant.

iamthemob's avatar

”...all Homosexuals live under the haunt of being perceived [as bad] by many in the public eye until all Homosexuals set upon themselves to actively route out NAMBLA before it’s too late.”

That is not a suggestion…that’s a statement. Until used in this sentence means that it hasn’t been done.

I don’t understand why you seem to think that, particularly with the flood of media today, the voices of groups that are underprivileged can be effective unless the privileged strive to listen. You characterize my information as minimal (a few websites and pamphlets) when that’s just the tip of the iceberg (see a single organizations attempt to promote moderate Islam messages in myriad media arenas here).

Here’s the thing – you stated that gays would be associated with NAMBLA until we spoke out. But it seems that you didn’t go any further than NAMBLA for your information. One minute longer of investigation could have brought you to the wikipedia page, calling into question any association, and a boolean google search shows you just how hard and often people muddy the waters (see the multiple entries from conservative and religious groups in this search and this one.

On the moderate Muslim front, the searches are simple as well…see this, and this, and inevitably lead to organizations like Muslims Against Terrorism, attempts to voice moderate Muslim concerns at Religious Tolerance, and the American Muslim site – which is pretty comprehensive.

Regardless, we still have this insistent brand of islamophobia.

Considering the amount of information and misinformation out there, if you just accept the first source you get, and look at only that source as a reference, you’re not doing any work. You’re just drinking the Kool-Aid.

PR102: It’s not as easy as it used to be.

bob_'s avatar

Ha, I just read this joke:

Overheard on the Butterball Turkey Hotline: “Excuse me, but I work for the TSA; I think I know how to stick my hand in a body cavity!”

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

“Until used in this sentence means that it hasn’t been done.”

Well @iamthemob, have all Homosexuals, Muslims, Catholics, Bankers made it their priority to oust their extremists? I’d wager that most don’t even know about the web sites you refer. Every one of these groups has a web site and a newsletter on both ends of the spectrum. Are you claiming that those who promote NAMBLA are not Homosexuals? Are those Priests not Catholic? Was Maddof not an Investment Broker? Are the terrorists that we’re most concerned about for airport security not Muslim?

“Regardless, we still have this insistent brand of islamophobia.”

Of course we do. But I feel I must explain myself lest you think I believe that’s a good thing. I have Alcoholiphobia… And though I know I need not be concerned for the safety of my children from most alcoholics, I will not deny the greater percentage of danger that alcoholics present to my children.

“PR102: It’s not as easy as it used to be.”

You must be joking. With all the media available to the common man these days there is no excuse for not getting the message out that NAMBLA is not to be confused with Gays who are productive and valued members of society, or that Maddof shouldn’t cause the stock market to crash, or that the message of Christ is not affiliated with abusive Priests in any way…

When will we see a global conference of Muslim leaders arise to make specific plans on how they can set the world at ease by confronting their own extremist fringe groups… Not just distancing themselves from it, but actually doing something about it, instead of making us lift our skirts and kill their sons because we’re the only ones expected to and capable of actually doing something about it?

iamthemob's avatar

Well @iamthemob, have all Homosexuals, Muslims, Catholics, Bankers made it their priority to oust their extremists?

Amazing. Congratulations. You have just set the impossible standard. Discrimination and fear are appropriate and to be expected as to any group as long as every single member of the group speaks up with a single voice.

That will never happen because fringe groups will always be around to claim that they are part of the group you are asking to speak with a unitary voice.

With all the information available to the common man there is no excuse for you not to know that NAMBLA is an organization that claims to be about a certain kind of homosexuality despite its rejection by the gay community. It’s inexcusable that you didn’t take the 45 seconds to see if there was another voice. It’s ridiculous to assume that the general population of a group supports fringe members unless they speak out against it in unison – even though the very definition of fringe suggests it’s not accepted.

The gay community can’t “do” anything about NAMBLA – except state opinions about them. Muslims can’t “control” extremists. These aren’t organizations – they are identities. What you seem to demand is that we control all members of our in group. That’s not our job – that’s what the government is for. We are doing something about it…we’re stating opposition.

Anything more and we’d be vigilantes.

Ivan's avatar

@Summum

Of course I find the internment of tens of thousands of Japanese was wrong. Are there people who think that was okay?

DominicX's avatar

@iamthemob

“The gay community can’t “do” anything about NAMBLA – except state opinions about them. Muslims can’t “control” extremists. These aren’t organizations – they are identities. What you seem to demand is that we control all members of our in group. That’s not our job – that’s what the government is for. We are doing something about it…we’re stating opposition.”

Thank you. Exactly.

JustJessica's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Timothy Mcveigh was not brown, yet he’s what I consider a terrorist! It may not have been an airline but he’s still a terrorist. The guy from last Christmas was darker than the men on the link you sent. So they don’t all look alike.

iamthemob's avatar

@Ivan

I was wondering the exact same thing…

gondwanalon's avatar

They can perform a colonoscopy procedure on me if it will keep some crazy SPB from blowing up the plane.

Dr_Dredd's avatar

@gondwanalon It may come to that. There are virtual colonoscopies now.

ETpro's avatar

@syz Excellent point. There would be little of prurient interest in a full body scan of this old man.

@Blackberry It is very low dose radiation. It’s far less than you would get in an x-ray for a broken arm or bone, or a chest x-ray/ More like what you are exposed to every couple of minutes when flying at 35,000 feet. But it is radiation, and America is full of medical conspiracy theorists.

@WillWorkForChocolate Can terrorist put bombs on children?

@Adirondackwannabe Wearing that would probably get you a full cavity search. :-)

@Cruiser And the YouTube video will be called fun with TSA.

@trailsillustrated Thanks. That would be my take too. Let’s just get on with it.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Ha! Yes, I hadn’t even thought of that.

@Frankie I am pretty sure you can ask for the pat-down to be in a private room, and specify one person whom you want to be the observer to make sure nothing outrageous is done.

@bob Ha! Great link.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I think they wanted us completely out of the Middle East for starters, not just completely out of our minds. They may be getting a giggle out of security theatre, but they haven’t gotten a win.

Regarding visual profiling, it would not work. To begin with, here is just a small range of what actual perps :look like”:http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9410/terrorists.jpg. And we know al Qaeda is already recruiting women and even strapping bombs to children and babies. As soon as they know what profile you are challenging (something they can easily discover with dry runs) they will recruit someone who doesn’t fit the profile. The Israeli system profiles nervousness, and that works while being completely divorced from race or religion.

@JustJessica I tend to agree. I think the Israeli system is better. All the experts keep saying it couldn’t possibly work here, but they never say why. But failing it, or if it really couldn’t be applied here, this is at least a step. Not that hard for the terrorist to work around, but a step.

@iamthemob Great chart. Thanks.

@WillWorkForChocolate I don’t see the worry. In all the samples I have seen, including the image you linked to, you can’t tell who the person is. The pictures that are out and about on the Internet are sample photos that the TSA took of willing models, not something “leaked” to Wikileaks or something.

@Zaku You normally are inspected by a member of your own gender. I don’t know what happens if you tell them you’re gay/

@Seaofclouds I don’t think they even check to see what your name is before you step into the scanner, so I am reasonably certain your name isn’t connected to the image the scanner makes.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I think the problem is that neither Homosexuals or Islam is a monolithic organization. Many homosexuals have vehemently denounced NMBLA and continue to do so. But there is no Homo-Central to issue an edict. Likewise many Islamic clerics have denounced terrorism and suicide bombing, but there is no single central authority controlling all Muslims to make them all come forward in unison and denounce terror. The terrorist organizations are mostly in isolated regions terribly unsafe for travel. It’s not clear to me how you would expect Islam to handle the renunciation.

To put it in context, You said, “I think Man/Boy love has a great deal to do with Homosexuality.” Certainly all NMBLA’s members are men. But then so are you and I. So are we equally responsible for what NMBLA does? Conflating an odious group with a wider separate group is the very stuff prejudice is built of.

@Summum I agree the long lines the new security imposes are a PITA and there may be better ways to secure flights. But being blown to small pedicels over a major city, and having your various severed body parts rain out of the air to be photographed for the five o’clock news is a bigger PITA in my eyes. That, I would consider a VERY serious invasion of my privacy and freedom to LIVE.

@WillWorkForChocolate Ha! Great song, “I’ll be groped for Christmas.”

@faye Why so rational?

@Dr_Dredd Wow, I know it’s off topic, but virtual VC? Do you still have to go through the royal purge ahead of it? What percentage of colonoscopies find polyps or irregularities?

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BarnacleBill's avatar

Body scan. Not exactly sexy images. Kinda gross, actually.

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funkdaddy's avatar

With regards to profiling, here in Austin a white man who lives in the suburbs with his wife and kids jumped in a plane and crashed it into an office building that happens to have IRS offices in it, killing himself and two others. I live within a couple miles of the building and the impact/explosion/fire basically took a whole side off it, I’m surprised (and glad) more people didn’t die. (article here)

As a white guy, I guess I fit the profile and bet you could find instances of terrorism that would fit just about any profile.

Everyone suggesting profiling thinks they wouldn’t fit into a “high risk” group, but what if you suddenly did?

ETpro's avatar

@funkdaddy Yeah, but that would only be white guys who hate paying taxes… Oh wait…

rooeytoo's avatar

Guess you didn’t read my response way up there, because I said if I fit a profile, it is my tough luck. No one ever told me life was going to be fair.

funkdaddy's avatar

@rooeytoo – it wasn’t really directed at you personally, I’m sorry about the ambiguity. I read pretty much all the responses and saw yours, honestly I thought your response was meant tongue in cheek.

To clarify a bit -

Profiling is being offered up as an alternative to everyone having to go through additional security measures. Usually by people who feel like the profiles wouldn’t match themselves or those like them.

Is it possible to devise an exhaustive profile for those likely to harm others?

What if everyone, or the majority, fits one of the profiles… is it still worthwhile?

I don’t think so, I don’t think harming people is a racial thing, a product of a certain age group, gender dependent, or based on anything else that’s easily picked up in a background check.

I think the people you’re looking for

1) feel slighted
2) feel powerless
3) think hurting people will get their problem noticed or pay back those responsible for the slight in the first place…

Unfortunately none of those appear on your state issued ID or any dataset I’m aware of.

faye's avatar

I’m flying next Tuesday, just can’t wait to see the scanners! I’m flying from Canada. It’ll be interesting to see if we are as diligent.

iamthemob's avatar

I think that describing it as “diligent” is pretty gracious.

bob_'s avatar

I’ll be flying on Monday and then again on Friday. They don’t let you pick a hot chick to perform the pat-down, do they?

ETpro's avatar

@bob_ Not unless you go in very convincing drag.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Just picked up my pal in STL from Houston. He didn’t get any of the business yesterday. Just walk through an xray machine and that’s it!

ETpro's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies The Great Opt Out worked so well today most everyone seems to have opted out of participating in it.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

He didn’t even get a chance to opt out. It just wasn’t even there at Houston. I guess some apo’s don’t have it yet.

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