Has wavering belief in God resulted in an inferior Society?

No. By all accounts, society has always been fairly disharmonious and at war with itself. If a belief in God fixed all of that, history wouldn’t basically be a really long list of obituaries.

The 20th Century has been one of the bloodiest on records though, and this does correlate with the decline in religion.

I am just reading yet another novel about Henry VIII’ s need to divorce his wife of decades in order to marry Ann Boleyn and try to sire a male heir to the throne.

Espionage, torture, entrapment, imprisonment, betrayal, religious schisms, scandal, gossip, rape, pillage, lies, and other mayhem…

A really good read, however. Wolf Hall
by Hilary Mantel, and winner of the Man Booker 2009 award.

@tlloydie Ah, but we simply invented weapons that could kill more people and (sometimes) with less causalities to ourselves. The giant increase in population doesn’t hurt, either.

@papayalily but with the state of religion prior to this century was there really a need to create such weapons?

What do you mean by inferior? I’m sure if we made direct comparisons we would find the good and bad in all things.

@tlloydie People have always been trying to invent bigger and better weapons. Our need wasn’t any greater this century – our luck in doing so was.

@psychocandy by inferior, i mean is society nowadays worse in comparison to when religion had a more dominant hold on the community?

Religion is and has always been a political tool. “the opium of the masses.” All the bloodshed in the middle ages and in the monarchy especially has always been more about who is in power than what a person’s religious beliefs were.

Society? Which parts? Your question is much too broad. Our medicine is better now than at any other time. Women and gays are gaining rights. The internet is bringing people from all over the world together and enlightening us to to the problems of others. Religion has often denied science, shuns equal rights and teaches xenophobia. Now what is inferior?

The warlords of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Bangladesh, Iran, Iraq, etc have a religious rationalization for their barbarism.

Interesting question. A belief in God has not created any problems historically. It is rather a belief in a specific deity that has created the problem. My god is better than your god. It is rather amusing when you look at atheists. They think they have it right but if you listen to their rhetoric, it’s the same as all other religions. If your not an atheist your ignorant, you’re a heathen. Hell, that’s exactly the same stand that Christians take against Muslims and they take against Christians. And the same that Sunni take against Shia and vise versa.

So in answer, it not a belief in god or a lack of belief that causes the problems. It is the idea that your belief is somehow superior to others. That if they don’t believe the way you do that they are lesser people, not enlightened. Obviously a problem that the enlightened ones need to correct. Conflict.

I think @Jaxk nailed it. I wonder also what information you have that shows a significant decline in belief in god as opposed to a decline in a particular or devout religious adherence.

Aside from all that, I think that there are many more factors that contributed to the increase in violence that would be contributors before we consider any religious shift – tech explosion, increased global interaction, population growth, he development of political superpowers would be much more important.

Society more or less as a whole, especially in youths and peoples considerations for others. The last century has seen the rise of the teenager, and this has caused various problems, gang violence, drinking problems, how little they care about their self preservation, this has worsened. Whilst medicine has improved we can’t say this is due to a decline in religion. With science, a large number of scientists in this day and age are indeed religious, its the arrogant evangelicals who have denied science as well as women and homosexuals rights. Not religion as a whole. With endeavours such as the Salvation Army one can see how much help religion can be to society.

Belief in GOD…has just changed…after the last change…..and before the next change…ever changing…...for good..and bad…

I think that it has, overall.

@tlloydie Definitely better to have the teenaged boys out there, tilling the fields, going to war, dying of harsh labor and sword stabbings, and the teenaged girls being married of and knocked up the second they hit puberty, dying from disease, both being sold into slavery to pay off a family’s debt. Today, they might smoke some pot and listen to KISS!

@papayalily so it’s better that teenage boys are out getting drunk and smoking drugs, harassing older members of public and even their own age groups, than following in their parents footsteps which was seen the traditional path taken by youths in the past? During the war effort many of the youths did get killed in vain, but this is happening today as well, showing you that the overall decline in religious belief has caused a problematic society. Teenage girls getting drunk and flaunting their bodies to teenage boys resulting in sexual assault, causing early pregnancy is not a benefit for society and this is happening all around the world, if people had more self respect and at least some essence of self preservation; which i might add religion can offer, we may have a better society in the future.

No, there is no evidence of a decline.

@tlloydie – Do you have any links to the statistics about the 20th century being one of the bloodiest? Also, that is a very wide-sweeping statement, are you talking about world-wide, or western ‘Christian’ societies? (as opposed to Hindu, Islam, etc.)

@tlloydie They didn’t go out and till the fields and go to war because it was tradition, they did it because there was no alternative. They could either do that or die. Some teenage girls do indeed get drunk and show teenage boys their naked parts (although I would disagree that this is evidence of a horribly declined state – seems like a much smaller problem to me). However, before, it was just teenage boys getting drunk and then raping their teenage wives, who had no legal say in the matter.

The middle ages were pretty fucking bad and way too religious for my tastes, you figure it out from that.

I don’t believe there is an overall decline in religious belief. Not in the US, at least.

@Thammuz In all likelihood, you’re thinking of the Renaissance. Most of the extreme violence committed in the name of religion actually happened during that time period, and the layman’s society simply thinks of it as happening in Medieval times.

I don’t think religion has anything to do with morality. Morality does and always has existed independently of religion. As people who profess a religion have continually demonstrated, they are just as likely to commit immoral acts as people who do not profess a religion. I wonder whether the increased bloodiness has to to with the dramatic increase in population and longer lives, thus making immediate resources more of an issue.

I feel part of the danger in talking about an “inferior society” is that it looks at where we are now as a conclusion as opposed to a transition. We are dealing with a great deal of new knowledge, and it makes sense that we need to adjust to it.

I strongly believe we should go back to a time when I would have been killed at birth for having features associated with witchcraft and my parents would have been subsequently tortured by the Inquisition for daring to have a demon child. Surely, this was an age of reason and enlightenment.

@papayalily Well, the Crusades happened in the Middle Ages…

@DominicX Indeed they did. But other things – The Inquisition, witch-burning, torture devices – did not.

Believing in a personal God is definitly a good thing, it makes a person stronger and I think it makes a society stronger too. Religion is a totaly different thing. Think how willing you would be to die for a good cause or your country if you thought you had eternal bliss waiting for you after death. I don’t know how soldiers go to war these days without a God of any kind to hold onto. I fear the society with God behind them may have the upper hand.

If we look at some facts, I think its quite easy to show the opposite. When religion was at its strongest we had the dark ages, arguably the worst time ever in human history.

If you ask an older person, they will almost always say things where better in their day. but the facts just dont support that claim, it’s just a bit of “good-ol’-days-syndrome”.

Almost any problem found today existed in the past:

* Today we have violent gangs, in the past we had violent gangs.
* Today people take drugs, in the past we had opium dens and people did drugs too.
* Today people kill each other, in the past we killed each other.

On the other hand:

* In the past there was racist segregation, today there is not
* In the past people would die from polio, today they do not.
* In the past there was torture, today there is less.

Some things are worse today, I’m not some idealistic guy who thinks we live in utopia, we do have our problems, and we could still destroy our selves, but for the most part, things are better today.

Name me any problem modern society has today, and i can show and quote examples of how it is not as bad as it used to be. There may be one or two exceptions, but for most examples you will see how things are better.

Aditionally, religion is not the only contributing factor to how well a society works. There is a large risk in this kind of debate in making correlation/causation fallacies as well as other bad arguments. It would be very easy to make assumptions and be biased and distort statistical data. But if you are careful, and look at it objectively, im sure you will see how things are better today, as well as seeing how things are better without religion.

There is a fair bit of statistical data that shows a correlation between high religiosity and higher levels of crime and education problems, as well as other problems. There is also data showing a correlation between secularism and well functioning societies. Sweden comes to mind, 90% secular, and socially better off than other more religious places. The only question is, do these correlations have any relation to the causes, I suspect so.

I think it’s easy to remember all the bloody things in recent memory. After all, you weren’t taught the details of all the other wars, conflicts, politics, etc., the way that you’re aware of the happenings of the 1900’s.. Yes, the US alone was involved in several wars that resulted in a staggering number of casualties. However, I guarantee that life was far more violent and dangerous on a daily basis 400 years ago, for example. Or, look at the violent culture of the Roman times.. they owned slaves and often would be sadistic in their use of said slaves.

I can think of so many periods of time outside of the 1900’s, where the culture was far more violent, dangerous, and life-threatening on a daily basis. Religion itself played a role in this, so it’s certainly not like religion and violence/bloodiness are polar opposites.

Stoning women to death is widespread today. LInk

As of 2010, stoning is practiced in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Nigeria, Iraq and Iran.

@poisonedantidote; Here’s some data about the dramatic increase in Sweden of violent crimes..lots of which is due to the disappearance of their homogeneous society.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb//showthread.php?s=30f6823a1f4bace6b1577d5d4eb15e72&threadid=212059

@gailcalled I’m not too sure what point you are trying to make with that article, It could be argued either way. I would not take this article seriously, not with some of the things they say.

“Then again, that’s what happens when you allow your country to be over run with 3rd world mongrels…”

There is something about calling people mongrels that makes me suspect this is not a scientific peer review paper.

Here’s some data about the dramatic increase in Sweden of violent crimes..lots of which is due to the disappearance of their homogeneous society.

The actual article says nothing of the kind.

And a related article says. quite the opposite:
‘The UN Special Report discusses how there is a widespread belief that the type of men who commit intimate-partner violence are not typical, ‘normal’ Swedes.

‘They are usually imagined as somewhat ‘deviant’ – unemployed, uneducated, alcoholic or from non-Western backgrounds, and so on. However, as Ertürk challenges: “In absolute numbers, the vast majority of the perpetrators of intimate-partner violence are ‘ordinary’ Swedish men.” ’

You’re right. I chose too quickly.

The sources on Google are all suspect. So, I retract my statement.

Can I really give a big “BRAVO” shout out to @gailcalled for “manning up” about making a mistake with that? So rare…!

On the flipside however, I think that there clearly and reasonably would be and generally is an increase in violence in any situation where homogeneity gives way to difference. It’s not an argument against desegregation/diversification of any kind – it’s a simple recognition that when people have to face conflicting beliefs, there’s always tension and even violence.

Why is it that religious questions are always the most popular? (rhetorical)

As long as people have faith in their beliefs there will be war and disagreement, period. Decline in said beliefs only leads me to believe that it’s becoming more comfortable as opposed to stepping on egg shells around who ever thinks their lord is mightier.

@iamthemob Agreed.

Much lurve to @gailcalled.

“A man should never be ashamed to own he has been in the wrong, which is but saying, in other words, that he is wiser today than he was yesterday.”
—Alexander Pope

I agree with @poisonedantidote . I think the study is obviously biased. The Swedes are always painted as the beautiful people, friendly and nice. While the Germans are mean and warlike, the Brits are imperialistic, and the French are sarcastic and self righteous. It’s time for the rest of Europe to get even with those damned Swedes so they chartered a study to make them look bad. Obvious manipulation by the EU.

@Jaxk said it very well. Religion or the lack thereof isn’t the problem. The problem is intolerance. If people could have their own beliefs [religious or otherwise] without trying to apply/enforce them on others, that would go a long way toward ending a lot of the violence in the world.

@gailcalled It may be because I have not had much sleep, But I still don’t quite get how this was supposed to relate to the question. @jaytkay has linked the proper article now, free from racism version, but I’m still not getting it. Was it intended to back up my argument or to refute my statement about Sweden?

I’ll accept the retraction of the statement, i would also accept it being reinstated if you like, I’m not really trying to make a case for anything either way with this particular post, I’m just curious as to it’s original meaning of your post is all, just for clarification.

If i accept as fact that Sweden has a very high rate of rape, i could still look at it either way. Either as intending to refute my statement by showing that Sweden has big rape problems, or intended to back up my statement by showing that Sweden was ok until immigration (from possibly more religious places) messed it up.

@papayalily No, i’m not. I’m not thinking about all the inquisition bullshit, that didn’t make life worse, on average, that made some people die but all in all life was pretty damn good compared to the middle ages. What i’m referring to is the church-supported concept of nobility by god’s will which effectively made “actual humans” only the aristocrats, and “pretty much shit” everyone else. Which gave the catholic church and unprecedented amount of power because it, effectively, was able to “unking” a king if need be.

That, my friend, is far worse than a few minorities getting the shitty end of the stick, like that’s any fucking news.

@Thammuz What, specifically, are you referring to? And how was it different than all other Divine Appointments throughout history?

Belief in god isn’t declining, and society isn’t becoming inferior.

So no, Kent Hovind.

No, there is no connection at all between loss of belief in gods and an inferior society.

If anything there is more religious disharmony in the world now than in the 1960s.

Man, talk about a front-loaded question…

Well, we now treat women as equals instead of property, and we have cut down considerably on genocide compared to past centuries. We no longer hang people or burn them at the stake without due process. (We detain them in Cuba and waterboard them instead :P)

Opium used to be legal, alcohol abuse has always been rampant, teens have always had sex… I would say that we don’t really have any more problems than we used to, it’s just that we are now more aware of the problems we’ve always had. Thank you, interwebs!

And some of them aren’t even really problems. For instance, we’ve always had homosexuals, and I think that we’ve had about the same percentage of them all along; it’s just that these days it is acceptable to be “out of the closet”. But regardless, is being gay really a problem? Some seem to think it is and say that it’s a sign of our moral decline, but I don’t see it that way.

Teen pregnancy? Considering that our culture (hell, even our nation) used to have women get married and have kids well before age 20, I see that as a non-starter as well. At best, it shows how some willing some people are to forget/ignore history.

I would love to answer that atheists probably account for most of the advances in sciences, treating people fairly, and that countries that are the most prosperous and civilized have high numbers of atheist citizens, but I am not sure it is so. I think it is way more complex than just whether a society believes in God or not. Part of it also might depend on how we define God. I think about The US that has fairly effecively kept religion out of government, I think that is very important possibly. More than if the citizens of the country believe in God? Are there any countries around the world that are theocracies, which we all feel are stron countries we would want to live in? I can’t think of one, but there might be one I am simply ot thinking of. But, then there are countries in the third world that to me seem not to be obsessed with God and religion, and are still a mess.

I think morality has a little to do with believing in God in the end. Yes, some people feel they learned their moral from their religion, which might be the case, but it is easy to have morals as an atheist too. To treat people equaly and with respect I think is what contributes to a harmonous society.

@poisonedantidote I think maybe @gailcalled point was that diversity and clash of culture might impact how harmonously people get along within a society. Her example showed a country that had not really dealt with immigration of people with different backgrounds for hundreds of years, and now that they have allowed people into the country who are fairly dissimilar culturally there is strife. Religiously different and culturally different.

I wouldn’t say inferior by itself, more like morally inferior. Everything that we believed in or rules that we held sacred have either changed or we “choose” to ignore. in 50 years homosexuality has jumped from being a closet secret to being a actual status, there is more pregnancies before the age of 18, crime has increased in all categories, money has taken complete control of the world, and diseases have evolved. Humanity has a complex about “proof”. It’s a morally conscious dilemma that we face because religion has always seemed hocust pocust, because no one has been able to prove it. SO if you think there’s no one above you or in charge, you do what you want. If there’s no God, then I might as well rape this little girl, kill him for his watch, laugh at that homeless guy, have a sex orgy because i’m bored, do drugs, mistreat my spouse, hit my kids for no reason, and other such things we deem as wrong. The old saying is “it only takes one”, and this is true both ways. Once someone sees someone else get away with doing something wrong, they’re gonna try it. And then it spreads like water from a fallen cup. If people took the time to acknowledge their emotions and individuality instead of putting up a tough persona, then we could realize that when you do something wrong, even something as small as bumping into someone on the street, you “feel” bad. And maybe feeling bad is a sign of something else? hmmm?

@Moegitto

Ah, so people only do good because they’re being watched. They’re afraid of being eternally damned. So-called religious “morality” is nothing more than the result of fear and threats. And I’m sorry, all I saw was you put homosexuality in the same category as teen pregnancy, crime, greed, and disease. But I’m not surprised.

@DominicX wasn’t referring to homosexuality as being wrong, just saying that there was a time when being “homo” was looked at as a sin and you were outcasted, but now the military is even accepting it (I think, gotta read the paper again). Just referring to how the world is changing fast. It took us close to 100 years to make cars fuel efficient, but some things changed in half that time!

I am fond of people who have a true spiritual connection to what they call God or Jesus.

But I am not fond of people who have a desperate psychological need for something larger than themselves, and then believe in God or Jesus out of tradition or fear or hope. To me, that’s pathetic and destructive.

Since one type of religious person is a help to society, and the other type is a drain… the lack of religion’s affects in the modern world come out to a wash.

@Moegitto

“homosexuality has jumped from being a closet secret to being a actual status”

Good.

“there is more pregnancies before the age of 18”

False.

“crime has increased in all categories”

False.

“money has taken complete control of the world”

As it always has.

“diseases have evolved”

As they always have.

“SO if you think there’s no one above you or in charge, you do what you want”

So atheists are less moral then? And it’s only atheists who commit crimes then? And the only reason to do good things is to avoid punishment from the eye in the sky?

“have a sex orgy”

The horror!

“And maybe feeling bad is a sign of something else? hmmm?”

Yes, like maybe a sign that it’s possible for us to come up with a sense of right and wrong without religion, hmmm?

@Moegitto – As @Ivan indicated – I really think you need to check your facts on those assertions.

If society is indeed becoming inferior, it is due to an increasing amount of people willing to settle and become Nietzsche’s last man from Thus Spoke Zarathustra, rather than striving to become ubermensch.

@Moegitto

“If there’s no God, then I might as well rape this little girl, kill him for his watch, laugh at that homeless guy, have a sex orgy because i’m bored, do drugs, mistreat my spouse, hit my kids for no reason, and other such things we deem as wrong”

I am an atheist. I have never raped, killed, laughed at the homeless, mistreated my spouse or hit a child. Nor do I view homosexuality, responsible usage of recreational drugs, or sex between consenting adults as ‘sinful” or as signs of an inferior society,

Like most atheists, my morality is stronger because it is godless. Unlike many religious people, I actually have to think about what is right and what is wrong, not accept some prepackaged morality given to me by someone else. I actually have to be able to logically explain why I do what I do.

No one can derive any cohesive, coherent moral system from the Bible itself. It simply isn’t there. All supposedly “Bible-based” moralities rely on external justification and explanation.

@Moegitto If the only reason you don’t do cruel things is because you might be slapped down by a hand from above, I truly pity you. And if the only reason you do kind things is because you think you’ll get benefits in some afterlife, then any God that existed would surely be able to see right through you. If anyone’s moral outlook is tragic, it’s yours.

@iamthemob Whoever John Galt is, he’s certainly no Übermensch!

We are going through a great historical transition, at least in developed countries. Scientific advances have altered our view of the universe and for many of us, what has been learned makes religion at best irrelevant. Times of transition tend to be chaotic and it is likely to continue for awhile, especially if you add in such factors as global warming and diminished resources. My hope is that we will develop a non-secular spiritualism that will make us more respectful of our planet and all its inhabitants.

http://bridgeoftime.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/i-hope-they-speak-norwegian-in-hell/

@Moegitto That feeling of feeling bad because you did something bad is called a conscience. And if anyone’s belief in a god stops them from doing those terrible things you mentioned…. I really hope they keep going to church. For me, I have a conscience. I don’t do things for some reward that awaits me later, I do good things because it’s the right thing to do for my fellow human being and the planet I share with them.

Headline today: “Iran May Commute Woman’s Stoning Sentence”:

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20110102/D9KG85IG0.html

@papayalily It’s not different from any other divine appointment through history except that back then they actually gave some importance to it being divine, as opposed to, say, the roman empire which treated the emperor as a god but very few emperors took that as something more than a political ploy.

Plus it was much more frequent in the middle ages, especially before Martin Luther, when every king had to be blessed by the pope and claim divine mandate otherwise all his neighbours were practically sure to dethrone him and take his land.