Is respect for authority so good that it justifies forcing it on people?

I’m pretty sure that if it is “forced” then it is no longer “respect.” It’s fear.

Of course not. A healthy anti-authoritarianism necessitates blasphemous and unpatriotic feelings and, hopefully, actions. Most authority figures, particularly those drawn to positions of authority in the state, are anything but worthy of respect. As for parents, most indeed treat their kids horribly – which makes parenthood a very dubious ideal.

No. People should actually question authority more often.

Forcing authority is needed in worst case scenarios….always has been always will. Still parenting an 11 year old I see often the need where even a child needs and expects authority to guide him and I would be letting him down if I did not put a small box around the many challenges confronting him. Granted he is only 11 but he does need that authority he expects to provide guidance and security to his chaotic world, IMO I think that this carries on for many people well on into their adult year and the absence of authority only adds to the chaos and uncertainty of their life’s challenges. Having the military as an option to bring certainty to a life where there is little to none is a God send to many that turn to the Military to help tell these lost souls what and when and how they need to conduct themselves and yes respect where before there was none.

Forcing respect doesn’t lead to actual respect. At best, it leads to a resentful person who hides how they really feel. It can also turn somebody passive-aggressive. Or maybe it will backfire violently and we’ll hear about it on the news.

Or it might work too well and break them ; they will have no ego or will of their own. I’ve seen that happen, and it’s sad when respect gets to the point where it interferes with self-preservation and/or makes happiness impossible because someone somewhere is unhappy.

@Cruiser Trust me, the military doesn’t automatically instill discipline or respect. Well, except for the USMC, but that is a tough gig to get into.

Respect for authority is morally neutral; whether it is good or not depends on the origin of the authority and the manner in which it is wielded.

Only for the timid and the weak minded. They need guidance because they can’t make decisions without approval from others.

@jerv I hear what you are saying and did not mean to imply all spineless loses that apply get accepted. I have had 2 relatives and 2 good friends who lacked direction and ran out of options who were fortunate to allow the military to shape their lost souls into fine proud soldiers and respect authority…something neither their parents nor a public education could accomplish. The military or jail is the last available options for these lost souls.

Using force (such as placing them in restriction) with the very young is a necessary step to teaching them self-control. However, adult methods of teaching respect use other incentives.

You cannot force respect

@bolwerk “Most parents treat their kids horribly”? Replace “most” with “some” and that sentence will make sense. Some parents also let their children run wild, not bothering to teach them respect at all and those are the kids who grow up and become criminals.

To answer the actual question, NO.

It’s probably most, likely the vast, vast majority. That of course takes on many forms, from neglect to abuse to stupidity to ineffectiveness. Most suburban kids are so poorly socialized they’re probably a lost cause at this point.

Wow, you want to come to our area and see how “poorly” all these kids are socialized? Maybe it’s just where you’re living, I dunno.

I really dislike blanket statements that are ignorant. Your statement is like saying “The vast majority of Christians are bumbling, delusional idiots.” Or “The vast majority of atheists are smug, holier-than-thou assholes.” Or “The vast majority of bowel movements occur at 3 PM.”

Show me some true statistics that prove the “vast majority of parents treat ther kids horribly”.

How about the average range of play romping grounds for Amerikan kids going from over 10 mi² a century ago to a bit better than a back yard, a bedroom, and maybe a school field nowadays? That alone ought to be enough to show you that parents are, either by intention or design, royally screwing their offspring by making them fat and bored. Why that is, I really don’t know. It’s not just parents either. Society as a whole treats children like crap from a young age, and then people are surprised by all the antisocial behavior that occurs in kids’ teenage and young adult years.

As for your statements about Christians and atheists, they’re both possibly true, especially for the more fervent ones. I just can’t speak to bowel movements, as I’m ignorant of the subject for the most part.

BTW, you completely misquoted me.

Wow. Just wow. I now have no idea where you live or what the hell you’ve been reading, but please educate yourself a little better before making such statements about the “vast majority” of anything.

And I quoted you correctly dear, if you’ll please reread what you wrote above.

Wow. Just wow. Making something up when direct, obvious evidence is right in front of your nose. Hit Ctrl+F in your browser window and search for the phrase “vast majority of parents treat ther kids horribly” (fix the typo to use the word their properly, if you prefer). Who is the only person on this entire page to use that phrase?

Of course, if you had some evidence that I’m wrong, you’d present it. Just like they do on Yahoo Answers!

Respect must be earned, again and again and again.

I don’t believe you can force respect. But, I do understand why people try to teach their children and others about being respectful. Sometimes a concept is explained, and it takes time for it to be understood. So, when a parent tells a child to treat others with respect, possiby even dictating how to behave, well this is what parents do to teach their children what is expected in society.

Just to clarify though, I don’t like the idea of washing anyones mouth out with soap though. It should not be punishing, it should be instrucional. And, in the end respect is earned, you can’t make someone respect someone else, they either feel it or they don’t. As far as the military, I think it teaches discipline more than respect.

From your question, i can assume that you have never been in the military. respect comes in many forms. respect for your parents, respect for the law, respect for the elderly and so on.

I will discuss only respect that comes from being in the military. i was in the National Guard for eight years. this was possible some of the best years of my life. it taught me what respect for my country and forefathers meant. the people that gave their lives, so you could have your freedom today.

@john65pennington That makes sense to me, that the military teaches respect for our country and forefathers, but do you think it teaches respect for your elders? For your parents? I think of people being told they have to go the military to learn respect, is code for that kid is undisciplined, ungrateful, disobedient, irresponsible, going down the wrong road, and needs to see how good he has it.

@JLeslie

I learned more self-respect in the military than in any other aspect of my life.

@CaptainHarley Ahhh, self-respect. I can see that too. But, don’t you think some of it has to do with the age most people join the military? Most people go through significant maturing when they begin their careers, and become responsible for themselves; in or out of the military.

When I was little (many years ago) my parents taught me to respect my elders, police, teachers, basically anyone in authority. It seems it was a safer, kinder world. If a teacher called my mom with a complaint, my mom didn’t tell the teacher what a wonderful child I was, she listened and I caught holy hell, I guess because she had respect for the judgement of the teacher. It was unheard of for even the rowdiest of kids to talk back to the teacher. I don’t know if it was fear based or forced or where it came from, but it seemed to work. Poor kids, rich kids, we were all in the same boat.

So I am inclined to believe that teaching a kid respect is a good thing. I am not sure what you mean by forcing. I never actually had my mouth washed out with soap, the threat was usually enough to scare me into silence. Do you think I am permanently scarred because of that???

JLeslie, my point exactly. i think everyone should serve at least 4 years in the military to learn respect for themselves as well as for our country. good answer.

@JLeslie

I have insufficient data on that. Sorry!

There’s a difference between telling a kid “Show some respect,” and explaining to them why respecting their elders is appropriate. I think we put a lot of pressure on our kids, and I don’t know if forcing them to write thank-you letters (my son really really didn’t want to) is appropriate. I would much rather persuade him to do it than just make him do it.

My daughter just did something that shocked me. It was only a joke, but I thought it was a joke in very bad taste, and I told her so. We were talking about some aspect of sex and relationships—maybe about birth control and when it is appropriate to have kids—and my daughter jokingly said about her mother that if she did this or that, she would be a prostitute.

I just thought that was really disrespectful, even if it was a joke. I told her so, but I don’t remember if I said an I statement (how I felt, leaving her to decide what to do) or a you statement (forbidding her to do it). I would prefer to have her understand why it is inappropriate (so she could choose never to do it again) than to have to forbid her to say something (so she would be resentful of me, and possibly disobey just to show she is the boss of herself).

Now, it is true, @john65pennington, that I have never been in the military and the only stories I have ever heard about it (from my father and friends who have been in it and Kurt Vonnegut), display the military as an inflexible bureaucratic organization that does far too many stupid things that are wasteful of talent and resources. I have also read some horror stories about the hazing that happens in basic training (or used to happen).

So knowing that, I expect that the military teaches respect in the “you must do this” kind of way, enforced by the threat of severe punishment. Like recruits are idiots who can’t understand a thing and must learn to only follow rules.

Now I know there’s a difference between basic training and what happens out in real life. I know that officers have to earn respect in the field or their troops will “frag” them (metaphorically with passive-aggressive behavior, work-to-rule and the like, not actually killing them).

But at the same time you have to salute everyone above you. Is that really respect? Or are they just following the rules and inside simmering about how idiotic their superiors are? There’s respect on the outside, and then there’s real respect. People say they learn respect in the Army, but is it real respect? And if it is, what portion of recruits learn real respect? I know that’s unanswerable, but I wonder if any of us know what we’re talking about. I suspect we’re just guessing based on our past experience and prejudices. [except me, of course, lol]

@bolwerk No no no… you’re not getting it. You originally said “Most parents treat their kids horribly”. I disagreed with that and you then said “It’s probably most, likely the vast, vast majority”. So replace “most” with “vast majority” as you said, and it’s still exactly what you said. I didn’t misquote anything, I simply put your two comments together.

@john65pennington I think people can learn respect, responsibility, being greatful, and discipline outside of the military also. My point was, when a kid is told he should go to the military to learn those things, it is because he has not picked it up ouside of the military for whatever reason. I grew up, forgive me for repeating this for those have heard me say it before, with my dad telling me America is a paradise for Jewish people (I am Jewish) because our founders in their wisdom thought to separate church and state, that our country is a place for people who seek to fulfill their dreams, seek freedom. My paternal grandparents were immigrants, my maternal great grandparents were immigrants, many people I went to school with were immigrants themselves. I learned from a very young age that people go through great hardship to come to America, to bring their families here. My husband is an immigrant, and has said many times he could not have accomplished in his home country what he accomplished here, My pride in America is very strong, without having served in the military. I also have pretty much always been responsible and a rule follower, having never been in the military.

Now, I agree there is an argument for everyone having to serve in the military, a separate topic really, but I don’t think it is because it is the only way people learn respect for themselves, their country, and others.

@john65pennington I failed to add my comment about what @wundayatta said regarding the topic. I think the military does use a kind of iron fist to get soldiers to comply. They must be “respectful.” Yes sir and yes ma’am, follow orders, present yourself in a way that is befitting a soldier. What I think is good about this is I do believe a little in fake til you make it. Meaning, if these young men are forced to behave a certain way, after a while it might become part of their nature, and they also might begin to see the wisdom in some of it. But it also is a little extreme for my taste, because in its strictest sense, it takes away the soldiers ability to think, he just must follow rules. Now, I know it is not that they are so brainwashed they stop thinking, and I also admit I can see why in the military there is a need for soldiers to not question authority, but that is also a little scary. It does not always completely translate into civilian life, it depends on the individual himself of course.

Also, take for instance addressing someone. Here in the south sir and ma’am are thrown around also as a sign a respect, but that kid in the supermarket calling me ma’am doesn’t know if I am worthy of respect when he calls me ma’am. So some of it is just custom, and judging people as respectful by what they say in this regard doesn’t cut it for me. In the northeast if you use sir or ma’am we ask, “military or southern?” in the south when a kid doesn’t use sir or ma’am they think, “undisciplined and impolite.”

EVERYONE is entitled to a degree of respect just for being alive as long as they have been, if nothing else.

I’m with @CaptainHarley. I don’t understand when people argue “respect is something that you have to earn.” I totally disagree. Respect is something that you are entitled to with each new individual or group that you encounter, and should be reciprocated.

Respect can be easily lost, however – and regaining that respect is something that need be earned – that I understand.

@CaptainHarley That I agree with. :) I just think people interpret what is respectful in different ways.

This is an interesting discussion—thank you.

I think your point, @iamthemob, is interesting. I appreciate the motive behind it. I, too, want to meet people for the first time as respectable and trustworthy. And that’s what I do. But with some people, it doesn’t take them long to blow it. They’ll say things that don’t sound right, or they’ll start behaving in unexpected ways (say not keeping their promises) and then I start to lose respect.

Still, I believe it is possible to respect people from the get-go and still say respect must be earned. Every day. This is because it is so easy to lose respect for people who behave badly, or who don’t keep their promises.

I’ll meet any leader of a team I have to work with, and from the beginning, my assumption is that they are a leader because they deserve it. They’re good at what they do. As soon as they start making stupid decisions, I start losing respect. As soon as they start treating me or anyone else in a less than respectful way, I start losing respect for them. So saying that respect must be earned is not incompatible with saying that we should presume that everyone is respectable when we first meet them.

@JLeslie I am intrigued by the cultural differences of respect that you note when comparing North and South. From that I learned that the symbols of respect are different in different subcultures. A respectful person, I believe, will learn the symbols of politeness in the place they are visiting or moving to, and try to adopt them. To not adopt the local culture, seems to me to be a sign of disrespect.

But there things get complicated. Because if adopting the local culture means giving up your birth culture, which do you do? It seems like an impossible dilemma or boundary to straddle, and is probably what leads to so much strife that local people have with immigrants.

“But with some people, it doesn’t take them long to blow it.”

I agree 100% – and it may be that the time it takes for one to lose another’s respect may make it almost functionally the same as never really having respected them in the first place. ;-)

But, and this is semantics, I think that what you’re discussing above, @wundayatta, is two different things – respect and admiration. Or, perhaps, differences when we talk about respect are because some, like yourself, really use the verb form and the noun form interchangeably when discussing people we don’t really know.

So I think that we mean the same thing, but verbalize it somewhat differently . When I say I respect someone upon meeting them, I really do mean that I show regard in the most basic sense (or attempt to do so). When I say that I have respect for someone, as the noun, I mean that they have gained a particular form of admiration based on their behavior. So yes – one can both respect initially and grow respect, but the first is the noun, the second the verb.

Am I a giant nerd?

Ok all, I just spent a long time writing out an answer and my computer zapped it. Very frustrating. But here I go again….

@wundayatta So saying that respect must be earned is not incompatible with saying that we should presume that everyone is respectable when we first meet them. I love that.

I think @iamthemob is touching on something that is very valid. Respect has different meanings to different people, and we also use the word many ways, including in different parts of speech, so many times when we all talk about the topic, there might be miscommunication.

Regarding immigration, your idea is certainly possible. I think of it more related to north and south, but I think that is because I am a northerner, and I think more of the world is like the north when it comes to how people address each other. Maybe I am wrong. It seems that possibly when a southerner describes northerns as rude, some of it might have to do with these simple expectations in speech like sir and ma’am. I tend to go with when in Rome do as the Romans do. Sometimes I can see the wisdom in their ways. Sometimes I don’t, but I still comply. Sometimes I cannot bring myself to do things, or say things, the other way.

A woman I know here in Memphis has a son-in-law from Michigan. He refuses to teach his children to use sir or ma’am. He was in the military for several years and hated the overuse of the words. The thing is, since these children live here in Memphis they risk being judged as impolite, obstinate, or disrespectful.

Now back to the immigrant thing. Especially if English is your second language, it can be difficult to include everything in your sentence. For instance when I speak in Spanish I many times fail to conjugate my verbs to the formal when addressing an adult I don’t know, or an adult who is senior to me. This is a sign of respect. But, I would hope they would understand that I am simply translating the best I can, and in English we don’t make the distinction.

You might have heard me tell this story before. A friend of mine, who was raised in the south, teaches high school. Used to teach here, then moved to the midwest, St Louis, MO. A few of her comments to me were: one, she now realizes that children who don’t tuck in their shirt can still be well behaved. Two, that not answering her with yes ma’am does not mean they don’t or won’t respect her authority and her rules. And three, detention works as well as a deterrent as corporal punishment. She also said the St. louis school’s students partcipated in discussion more, had impressive knowledge of current events, and seemed more interested in learning. I believe they were raised in families, attended schools, and lived ina local society where children were encourgaed to give opinions, and not constantly told to not talk back and other phrases that silence children. Both schools she taught at, suburbs of Memphis, and suburbs of St Louis, were middle class prediminently white, few immigrants schools. She came with ideas in her head of how “good” children behave, but now has changed her mind about judging children who do not conform outwardly to her previously strict thoughts.

@iamthemob You may be a nerd (although it never would have occurred to me to call you one), but if so, you are a wonderful nerd, and I’m glad you over here to play in my sandbox :-)

@JLeslie

Compassion, kindness and courtesy.

@CaptainHarley Again, I agree, but some people get caught up in their expectations of what demonstrates respect down to very specific behaviors. If the other person does not have the handbook with the rules, they are at an unfair disadvantage.

It helps me to think of respect as a vertical, sliding scale. Everyone begins with essentially the same level of respect, then some move up and others move down, depending upon their behavior.

@CaptainHarley – Solid conceptualization.

Thank you. : ))