Meta Question

Dog's avatar

Do you think there is any way, without making physical site changes, to make the moderation process more friendly?

Asked by Dog (25152points) February 20th, 2011

This is just me thinking. I am not implying that the system is broken or that it will change. I just want to explore the topic to see what users think.

Mods are volunteers and many of us do not have much extra time but still I would like input from you guys.

On average we send 10–30 questions back to the user to edit a day. Of these quite a few do not ever return to be posted again.

Sometimes the user just does not return at all after asking a question and may not even know that their question was sent to edit in the first place, but I worry some take it personally and walk away before realizing how awesome Fluther is.

I am especially concerned about the users with interesting, quality questions that are well written aside of some typos or a bad title.

Do we think that the process is making quality new users inadvertently feel unwelcome? If so do you all think that there any ways to make the edit process seem less like a slap on the hand?

* Or is just the act of asking them to correct something offensive and not much can be done about it? *

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35 Answers

WasCy's avatar

You could mention that it’s being done “for their own good”, because if some of us me in particular, I suppose see a question from a nominal English speaker that is riddled with typos, misspellings, subject / verb disagreements, missing, inadequate or overuse of punctuation, and gross errors in syntax or logic to name just a few then they’ll feel pretty darn silly after it gets torn apart publicly, and you’re trying to spare them that, because gosh darn it they deserve better than to have to have their shoddy prose attacked by me.

In other words, tell them that Fluther is filled with wonderful, warm, wise, witty and welcoming folks… and a few goddamned cranks who just won’t go away… and you’re on their side to protect them from me. Or you could just moderate me more often, I suppose. I like the first option better.

nd if there Qs txted, thn evry1 will jump down they’re throt

Jeruba's avatar

I think maybe the people we need to hear from on this are some of those who were moderated early on but for some reason stuck around anyway. They can report what it was like to run into moderation as new users, and at the same time their remarks will probably be constructive, judging from the fact that they overcame whatever adverse effect that experience had and remained to become invested in the site.

wundayatta's avatar

All I can tell you is my experience. Dunno if it will make any sense.

There were a couple of times, early on, when I was modded, and it outraged me. It was quite arbitrary. Now those were the days before the rules were clarified, so things were trickier then. But I had one question that the moderator just didn’t get. They asked for more detail, and the whole point of the question was to not prejudice people and allow them to open up. Maybe that question would have gotten through under social now.

But there was no real attempt to understand me. In all my communications, the mods were very defensive in trying to explain why they didn’t like it. The communications just weren’t very useful.

In those days, I was somewhat unhinged, so that could have played a role, but I felt so wronged that I can’t believe it was all me.

I think that some kind of appeals process would help. I don’t think a lot of modded questions should get to the appeal, but I do think that in rare cases, the mod fucked up.

I have been modded several times since then. In every single case, I thought I might get modded, but I decided to see if it would get through. The questions needed to be in the form I wanted, but that form was a potential violation of the rules. But it was acceptable, because I understood the rules. They are much clearer now, and not so much subject to arbitrary decisions by individuals. My impression is that you talk things out more, now.

It might be nice if new users took a voluntary quiz about the rules early on. Maybe it could be a fun game, and people could get various awards for passing different sections. That would probably appeal to the kind of person who is most likely to violate the rules. Serious people wouldn’t be interested, but then, they would probably understand without ever having to be told.

But communication is the key. It has to be as clear as possible up front, what this place is. I realize many people won’t read stuff. They just want to get started, but at some point along the way, we want to make sure people understand. Right now, it seems to be happening on an ad hoc basis, as people get into trouble and the mods try to set them straight.

Mostly, these days, I get a question modded because it has typos. Once in a while because it doesn’t have enough details. Sometimes I get an answer modded, but that’s because I’m being too flippant or off-topic with a serious question. Those things don’t bother me. It’s getting modded when I feel very strongly the moderation is inappropriate that I mind.

I used to think that the mods should pay attention to me because I’ve been around a while, and people seem to generally appreciate my comments, even if they don’t agree with me. But I realize that I don’t have any clout around here—at least, not with the mods. I know I’m easily replaced, just as at work. It really doesn’t matter what kind of work you do these days. No one is irreplaceable. I think the mods keep us clear on what the bottom line is. I try not to think about it much. It makes me too depressed. But it keeps me honest, too. The only reason to be here is if you’re having fun doing what you’re doing. You use the site for your own pleasure, and the site puts up with you as long as you toe the line. If either side doesn’t like it, you’re gone. No love lost. Not how I’d run it, but then, no one asked me.

bob_'s avatar

I actually think you guys tend to be too friendly, explaining over and over again why the quality of the site matters and such. If you ask me, anybody who asks a “OMFG aren’t the mods so mean?” type of question should be immediately banned.

That’s not to say that the moderation is perfect, but do we all need to hear about how somebody doesn’t think proper spelling, punctuation, capitalization and grammar don’t matter?

KatawaGrey's avatar

I feel like most of what I moderate has to do with typos and writing standards. Specifically, in that case, I think we should encourage the user to let us know if they will have trouble with proper grammar and spelling for some reason whether they are a non-native English speaker or have some kind of learning disability.

I also think that maybe we could have a stockpile of the most commonly asked questions on hand to link to people when they ask a duplicate like questions about tumblr, dreams about crushes, what you can do with lurve, etc. rather than just saying it’s a duplicate.

Jeruba's avatar

@KatawaGrey, one thing (perhaps the only thing) that I liked about WikiAnswers was the automatic search on question content that happened as soon as you wrote a question and were ready to post: it searched for questions with similar content and asked “Is this your question?” If we had an algorithm that picked up a certain degree of similarity between content and keywords and offered up an existing question, we might eliminate some of that duplication. It would take some clever coding and beta testing on the part of our absent fluthergods, however.

It wouldn’t be hard to compile a little reference list for mods on the most overworked questions, even if there were no automatic referral and it had to be used manually. I’ll bet if you just posted a question about that, regulars could come up with a top-40 list in a day or two.

And of course there is a big difference between questions with identical answers (“What’s lurve all about?”) and questions that have the same tiresome form but to which the user is actually seeking unique answers (“What does it mean when I dream . . . .?”).

KatawaGrey's avatar

@Jeruba: I would agree with you except many of the specifically dream interpretation questions have all the same responses “You dreamt about him because you were thinking about him today,” “Here’s a dream interpretation website,” “It doesn’t mean anything.”

Jeruba's avatar

Ok, not dream questions then (I think we could supply boilerplate for a lot of relationship questions, actually), but any that involve a long recital of special circumstances that have a bearing on the answers.

At any rate, I do believe we could assemble that stockpile for you pretty readily, starting with the lists posted under questions that ask “What questions are you sick of seeing on fluther?”

KatawaGrey's avatar

@Jeruba: I quite agree. Would you like to ask it or shall I?

augustlan's avatar

@Jeruba We do have something like that, but it could probably be better. I think a lot of people just ignore it, though.

Dog's avatar

I do try to link up duplicate pushes to edit with the link to the other question when I have time.

The tragically spelled questions are really not what I am trying to preserve. I am not talking about the duplicates or the questions riddled with txtspk. In my mind these are not ones I want to take a huge amount of effort to preserve for the site. I have tried in the past to help many users employ proper English rather than txtspk. Sadly to date not one has ever become a productive member. Don’t get me wrong. I will still help them but I do not invest as much time there because often they think we are the problem for having standards.

I would very much like to use my time to aid those who are well-spoken and have good things to contribute. Those who are seeking signs of intelligent life on the internet. I just hate to see one not return after their question was sent back.

What do we look like to a newbie used to the BS of other sites? They come on here. They put effort into a question and next thing they know it is gone? Maybe they are happy at the standards. Maybe they think they did not post it? I wonder if maybe we could find a way to welcome them better so that if a question is modded they do not have it become the first interaction they have with us.

I don’t know…

Jeruba's avatar

@KatawaGrey, I think it would be much better if it were asked by a mod, in the same spirit as this present question rather than sounding like the question of a whiny veteran who is feeling irritated with typical newbies just for being typical. “What questions are you sick of seeing on fluther?” is a rather hostile question that was just meant to serve as an example. We have seen some like that, and they did attract lists of tiresomely repeated cliches, but they’re not exactly welcoming.

Rather, something that asks (for example) “Can you help us mods compile a list of questions that really are frequently asked (so we can point to them when newcomers just have to ask them again)?” might be more fruitful.

@Dog, I don’t know how well I would do as a mod, but I would certainly make sure I looked at a questioner’s profile just to see if the person is very new, and if so I think I would also try to be positive in my message—something like you just said, differently worded: “I can see that you’ve put some good thought into your question. A great question is not only stimulating but also well written. We want to encourage you to make your questions great. Here are the things we’d like you to tidy up here: (1) (2) (3) I think you’ll also discover that the high standards on this site will get you a better quality of answers than you’ll find elsewhere. So you’ll understand why we’re particular about delivery as well as content.”

You probably already do these things. This would just be my idea of how to encourage while also guiding.

Veterans don’t need that much hand-holding, of course. And you probably already do use a gentle touch. That’s certainly been the case when I’ve been modded.

XOIIO's avatar

I think that we should have, right beside the main question box and maybe title a “Fluther Approved” button, which would activate a spellcheck and replace words with incorrect spelling, or open a new tab like the spellcheck on www.instructables.com has when you use the spellcheck, where a small page opens and shows the misspelled word, the correct spelling of the word, and the option to replace it or keep it.

It before the spell check it would have a plain grumpyfish, and after the spellcheck a gold\yellow grumpyfish that would allow you to continue, this was users have to make sure their spelling is correct. IT would only add a minute into the proccess and would help improve the moderation proccess by removing those nasty typos.I think one would also be nice when you are writing an answer, but you do not have to use it to press the answer button, it’s just there if you want it.

What do you guys think?

augustlan's avatar

@XOIIO Apparently, including a spellchecker on the actual site is complicated and would slow down the site. Most of the good browsers have a built in spellcheck, though. I use Firefox, and love that feature. It checks my spelling no matter where I’m typing! Oddly, it recognizes “spellchecker” as a legitimate word, but not “spellcheck”. Weird.

XOIIO's avatar

@augustlan wierd.

I guess a spellchecker would slow things down.

poo

downtide's avatar

@Dog “What do we look like to a newbie used to the BS of other sites? They come on here. They put effort into a question and next thing they know it is gone?”
But are they actually putting any effort in? If it’s a trivial question full of typos and text-speak that kind of suggests to me that there wasn’t actually much effort put in to the construction of the question. If they realise that Fluther IS going to be too much effort for them, and they decide to go away, I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. If the process is changed in such a way to relax it, and it allows more of this sort of question to get through, it will lower the standards of the site. Yes we’ll have more users but the quality of questions will fall and we’ll end up looking exactly like the BS of those other sites that these users are used to.

I think the only change that is needed is some kind of statement during the registration process to warn users that standards are comparatively high and that questions and answers will be moderated for quality, including use of English.

JilltheTooth's avatar

@bob_ : But the mod-basher threads always morph into food talk, which I, personally, love!

WasCy's avatar

Are we there yet, @JilltheTooth? I had some great sushi last night.

JilltheTooth's avatar

Nah, @WasCy , nobody’s bashing yet. But I’m going to roast a chicken today.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

Let the bashing begin. Friggin mods, just because you do a thankless job for free. Now, @JilltheTooth How are you doing the bird? (Mods could allow a little more leeway on the obviously saracastic questions. Not that I would ever ask one.)

Dutchess_III's avatar

I think you guys do fine…Auggie, especially, lets care and concern come through in her moderating….especially after she’s had tacos.

wilma's avatar

I had a question modded early on. I didn’t re-post the question and I didn’t ask any more questions for quite a while. I still don’t ask very many questions. I can remember the feeling of the lump in my throat at the (seemed to me) rejection.
I don’t think that the moderation was done in a mean way, but I’m a rather shy person and it stung. My confidence was shaken and I was certainly thinking that perhaps I had not found the great place to learn and have some fun, that I thought that I had found.
Don’t get me wrong, I am glad that there are high standards here, but I think that @Dog ‘s question and @Jeruba ‘s answers are not without basis.
I appreciate all the work that the mods do for us, and I don’t normally complain. I don’t really have any answers other than please be gentle.

Jeruba's avatar

@wilma, I felt a little <gulp> the first time I got a question back too. But a moment later I was glad that my lapse had been caught. (It wasn’t a spelling error.) The mods were just doing for me what I’d asked them to do for others: sparing me the embarrassment of owning a very public mistake by giving me a chance to fix it.

I also strongly agree with @downtide that some users are just sloppy and truly don’t care (a subset of all the people out there in the world who are just sloppy and truly don’t care; some of them do find their way to fluther). I’d much rather that they say “Not a good fit” and go elsewhere than that we lower our standards to accommodate them.

And I agree that giving folks a little more prominent notice up front—when they register—that we do take our guidelines seriously might help. How about a linked page that shows a sample exchange headed “What happens when you get moderated?” We could even stage such a question in Meta, including a sample user-moderator dialogue.

Dog's avatar

OH! I think you guys are onto something here!

What if I was to send out a generic “Welcome to Fluther” PM to newbies? It would be our first contact with them and could explain how things work here while also telling them we look forward to their contributions. This would make them feel welcome from the get go and also clue them in to the fact that moderation is heavy here compared to other sites. (With a heads-up on no txtspk and to watch spelling/grammar)

An additional PM could be sent to those who contribute by giving great answers or asking great questions after they have done so letting them know how much we appreciate their input!

What do you all think?

Thanks so much for this input. And as stated prior I am not talking about trying to keep users here who are not a good fit.

I just want to try to keep those, like Wilma, from inadvertantly feeling unwelcome or hurt. :D

wilma's avatar

@Dog I think that sounds like a good idea.
Thank you

downtide's avatar

@Dog I think this is a marvellous idea.

wundayatta's avatar

@Dog Sounds good to me. Although I’d be careful to make it upbeat, and not to sound like a repressive place right off the bat.

Dog's avatar

Agreed @wundayatta. I am already sending it out (started right after posting above) and took a lot of care to be positive and cheerful. :) hopefully we will be seeing more new Jellies wading in. At the very least my note about txtspk should cut down on that. I think people really just do not know we don’t do that here or they wouldn’t. :)

Jeruba's avatar

I like the idea of a welcome PM a lot. I might also think of doing a little follow-up with maybe the first day’s catch and just asking them after, say, a week if the welcome message was helpful to them.

I’m not as enthusiastic about the additional PM commending new contributors for their great answers or questions. For one thing, if they really are good new contributors, they’ll be getting that kind of feedback from their posts. For another—you know how touchy some jellies can be—this could backfire if people feel they should have got such a message but they didn’t. It’s also a very large burden of following and monitoring for you. Why not let this part ride for now and just concentrate on a little extra hand-holding for the new arrivals?

Dog's avatar

@Jeruba Oh thank goodness. I have been welcoming newbies and it is very time consuming. I will gladly drop the idea of another PM. I have not had much time to do regular Mod duties. Thank goodness we have such an awesome Mod crew to cover it!

I do think the new member greetings are a step in the right direction. Though it is way too early to see if it has helped I personally did not pull any newbie questions for txtspk. I am hopeful that the trend will continue. :)

Jeruba's avatar

You’re a very good Doggie. <pat pat pat>

joannacoolracer's avatar

Im with bob and dog!!

augustlan's avatar

@Dog is one awesome mod. :)

Dutchess_III's avatar

That is a good idea Dog….yes, I too felt horribly ashamed and guilty the first time I was modded. But…I was one of those kids who felt guilty when the principal came into the room, even if I hadn’t done anything!

Here is a bone for @Dog. It still has some meat on it too!

Dog's avatar

:D Thanks!

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