Quran burning controversy - How do America's ultra-conservatives feel about flag burning?

I can’t speak to the motives or feelings of ultra conservatives; however, I recognize that in many ways I lean that way, so…

If we ever pass an amendment or law that prohibits burning of the flag, then I’ll burn a copy of the Constitution in protest, instead.

Flag-burning is a somewhat desperate protest, but it is a strong political protest. I’d rather see someone protest by means of positive ideas or an actual list of grievances, but I’m not at all in favor of banning political speech, no matter how abhorrent it is to me. It’s what this country was founded upon, after all.

Well, I’m not ultra-conservative, but I do fall into the Libertarian/Conservative category so I’ll put my two cents in. I think that the burning of the American flag should be illegal because the flag is a symbol of what countless people died for to make this nation free, just my opinion, though. As for the burning of the Quaran, that man and his followers, in my opinion, are nutjobs and shouldn’t be allowed to own lighters let alone burn anything. I am not a fan of the Muslim faith but I do realize that we are guaranteed freedom of religion and I don’t want anyone burning my Bible….just sayin’

If an American citizen who has benefitted from the liberties and freedoms this great country has afforded them is so devoid of better and more constructive means to get their opinions and displeasure of what is going on at that time and feels the need instead to burn our Nations sacred flag….I say strip them of their citizenship and buy their sorry ass a one way ticket to Iran.

Sorry, not familiar with this “golden” or “silver” rule.

@Tuesdays_Child I would not expect any conservative not to feel offended when another American burns a flag but if it is burned Im sure you know it’s not because that American hates his country but most probably protesting a certain policy the government is pursuing. Bottomline is the flag’s symbolism and purpose may differ from person to person, and in the land of the free that is just reality.
As for the Quran burning, that pastor now clearly has blood on his hands knowing some Muslims will kill afterwards. I emphasize with the families of those who were killed. Why don’t the Muslims just burn the bible if they really need to go down that despicable level with the quran burning pastor? And if you disagree with bible burning, would you not agree to do it to save those UN workers’ lives?

I understand your emotions, @Cruiser and @Tuesdays_Child, and I generally share them. However, my point is that the flag is merely a “symbol” of the country (one of many, I might add, although the flag is the “official symbol”). The Constitution is what this country “is”. If we abrogate the Constitution’s “freedom of speech” much more than we already have, then that’s why I say that I’d burn a copy of it instead of a mere flag.

In any case, I don’t think that flag-burning should be given more leeway than other forms of prohibited “hate speech”. If someone burns a flag at a Veteran’s Day or Memorial Day parade, for example, or in front of a US military base (on US soil), then that should be counted as an extenuating circumstance if the person is summarily executed by indignant veterans. That is, flag-burning should be “a right”, just like other forms of strong political speech, but it’s not an absolute right to exercise willy-nilly.

Just for the sake of argument, keep in mind that to all well-meaning Muslims the Quran also is a symbol of peace when at the time of its writing warring Arabian tribes were the norm and the first Muslims were cruelly oppressed by the pagan Quraysh tribe.

The point is: many symbols can stand for mixed messages. So if the flag is very dear to ultra conservatives and the Christian Right and they feel hurt when someone burns it (happens all the time in Iran for example), why can’t they understand that burning something that is dear to someone else will hurt feelings too.

Judging from the comments so far, I wonder whether the 34 senators represent public opinion with flag burning and strong political speech being a right. Why did the 34 support the ban then?

It’s a popular knee-jerk reaction among constituents of all stripes. No American wants to see his flag burned. I certainly don’t. But I can understand the motives of someone – even an American – wanting to burn it in protest, even if I don’t agree with a single word of his protest. And Iranians burning a US flag simply don’t signify at all to me. I don’t care what they do with flags they acquire to burn or deface.

No politician can possibly win an election by “appearing” to condone flag-burning. Anyone who attempts the kind of reasoned explanations that I’m giving here would be completely drowned out and discredited by 10-second sound bytes on nightly news programs.

It’s why they all wear flag pins on their lapels. It signifies next to nothing, really, and certainly not a thoughtful and reasoned acceptance of what the nation and the Constitution represents. All it says in a glance is: “I’m one of you.” (And no one ever wonders “who is us?”)

@mattbrowne Dare I say because they are politicians? Seriously maybe they support the ban since they don’t believe flag burning as strong political speech as such not being a right.

So would these 34 senators also support a ban on burning Bibles and Qurans?

@mattbrowne Yes. Also reviewed your post, So if the flag is very dear to ultra conservatives and the Christian Right and they feel hurt when someone burns it (happens all the time in Iran for example), why can’t they understand that burning something that is dear to someone else will hurt feelings too. Dare I say hypocrisy? There is a good, necessary way of practicing religion, the bad way is when you practice hypocrisy along with it. This is not related to your question but think of those who lynched decades ago. I will bet my life some, if not most went to church on Sundays.

I have a problem with the burning of anything… but especially flags and books – of any kind.

I feel that burning a Bilbe. a Quran, a flag or anything else that people hold dear to their hearts is wrong. It is a slap in the face to people who old these things dear to their hearts. Why do people feel the need to agitate others so much? People who do these things are looking for a fight. If you are not willing to fight people. Do not agitate people like that. That man who burned the Qurans is not willing to fight anyone. I’m sure he would run away from a fight. All bark, no bite. I really get pissed off when an American burns the flag of his/her own country. To me that is not protesting. It is treason.

I agree with you that it’s vile speech, @Mikewlf337. But that’s all it is. In fact, in some context, it’s the “proper” and proscribed way to handle a flag, since burning (respectfully) is the way to dispose of a worn out and damaged flag, rather than throwing it in the trash.

Vile speech still has to be protected. Especially vile speech needs to be protected.

I am a muslim,I have read the bible and even it contains many porno (Ezekiel 23,Songs of Solomons..for example) and it contains a lot of violence(Lev26:7,Deut20:13..etc),I never think about burning it but rather i had rational conversations with many missionaries from different churches based on mutual respect and logic,but those who can not have a rational dialogue and lack of logic all they can do is ROAR and got paid from media just to inflame the situation,most of islamic countries are poor and uneducated,and ruled by dictators (puppet)that is why there reaction is so wrong,if that pastor have the courage to debate islam he would not do what he did.

Welcome to Fluther, @Hesham! In every almost every religion you will find zealots and you will find people who value interfaith understanding and dialog. Not all Islamic countries are poor. A good example is Turkey, but they implemented a secular system in 1923 and broke with the idea of political Islam. The same might happen now in Egypt, Tunisia and Libya. The dictators are history or soon will be history.

Burning books is wrong, but killing someone for this is even more wrong. What Terry Jones did was crazy and irresponsible and despicable, but this doesn’t mean he deserves to die.

What will happen when Islamist terrorists succeed in assassinating Terry Jones? Hundreds of Qurans will get burned all around the United States by angry, hard-line, ultra-conservative Christians. And then?

The vicious circle of hatred will get out of hand. No one can want this.

Flag burning is about strong emotions too and it can ignitevicious circle of hatred too. I wouldn’t call it treason, it’s rather meant to hurt people’s feelings.

Actually, if you think about it a bit, isn’t this whole “killing people for their incorrect beliefs” thing sort of a repudiation of the professed beliefs?

Whether one believes – as a member of whatever religion – that the Almighty is or is not responsible for judgments here on Earth, any religionist I’ve ever met believes that the judgment will take place after this life, and last for eternity. So why do they feel a need to hasten the process?

I have to admit that I often am in some awe of those who really can “turn the other cheek” after a setback or injustice here on Earth. Of all the stories in the Bible, Job also resonates: nothing shook that man’s faith, and he had what had to be the right idea. If one can’t understand the Almighty, then all one can do is accept and be thankful for whatever is delivered: life or death, riches or poverty, health or misery – that’s the gift. Maybe sometimes (if you believe in this vein) the heretics, infidels and blasphemers, to name a few of the afflictions the faithful see too often, are just a different form of the gift to accept and be thankful for.

No? Well, maybe not. It was just a thought.

@mattbrowne,i want terry jones to be safe and i know if he give himself a chance to read the quran he will regret what he have done and please read it in context to know what is the meaning cause some translation of the word (deter) changed to (terrorize) of course you can not imagine a religion who stayed for 1400 years,and have followers of about 1800 millions would preach violence or hate.

@mattbrowne Egypt,which i am from used to be a secular kingdom,muslim,christian, jews , athiest used to live in harmony,before 1952 we had 2 christian prime minister,but after the second world war and the mass immigration of jews from europe to palestine and they were full of panic because what they had seen in europe(holocust)they started to organize terrorist militia(argun,stern..etc)and started to practice terrorism (king david hotel,dier yasen,..etc) against british army and armless palestinian civilians forced them to be displaced (now you gonna accuse me of anti semit,although i am a semit) the egyptian find themselves in a great danger(and all arab too) that was the start of religious extremist
the jews call others (gentiles)and treat them like animals(read tilmud)and christian want jesus to come back on israel(listen to pat robertson)and muslims want to free jerusalem,we need to look to the future,and see what dangers mankind face(global warming,fresh water shortage,diseaese..etc)instead of paying any attention to those zealots.

@WasCy – Killing people for their incorrect beliefs is always wrong whether it’s being done in the name of religion, communism or nationalism. In the 20st century far more than 100 million people have been killed in Europe in the name of Nazism, but also in the name of Stalinism or Maoism. The killing in the name of religion was done too but on a smaller scale, see the rare example of the Armenian genocide in the name of Islam. The genocide in Rwanda was done in the name of tribalism. The genocide in Bosnia was done in the name of nationalism. Even in Libya with Muslims killing Muslims the killing is done in the name of tribalism.

@Hesham – Egypt is a wonderful country. I visited it in 1986 for 4 weeks. My top 3 countries with the friendliest people I have met are: number 1 Egypt, number 2 United States and number 3 Italy. My wife spent 3 months in Cairo for an internship at the time. She felt safe day and night. Almost no crimes. When we look at the 10 most dangerous cities in the world, none of them are Muslim. A fact, Terry Jones is probably not aware of.

I greatly admire the people in Egypt and their peaceful revolution. And I’m confident that the secular Muslims will be the majority in the next election. It is my hope that the Muslim Brotherhood does not get more than 20% of the votes. They support political Islam, not secular Islam. Laws must be made by a parliament and not be defined by one particular religion. And these laws can change over time. There are 10% Copts in Egypt.

When Egypt becomes the second secular Muslim country this will greatly impress Western societies.

Because of Fukushima about ¼ of the German voters now support the German Green Party. Did you know that it is run by a German Muslim? He is the co-chairman. Most people don’t know this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cem_Oezdemir

Secular spiritual Islam is the way forward. The sharia belongs to the dark ages. Then at some point in the future Al-Qaeda won’t be able to recruit new followers.

And burning holy books will also become a thing of the past.

@mattbrowne- You are welcome in Egypt all the time,but right now the security is not good, there is a lot of instability,my advice is to wait at least for 6 month tell it get stable,the issue of global warming is a danger to all mankind rising sea level threats all coastal area ,that will be a cause of a mass immigration all over the world ,i have an idea i would like to share with you, there is a lot of depressions area all over the globe,like al qattara in egypt,st jullian in argentina, death valley in california,dead sea in palestine…and others,if there is a plan to dig channels from near by ocean or sea to these depressions that will help to reduce the sea level and stop that threat,also it can produce hydraulic power (renewable and clean).

@Hesham – Yes, I’ll wait. I think Egypt should invest in microalgae research using seawater and sunlight to produce oil and bioethanol. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel#Fuels

I would set up an innovation contest and the smartest people in Egypt should participate. The goal should be to bring down the cost of fuel production. At the moment a barrel of algae oil costs $800 and crude oil is still far cheaper. But once algae oil costs $150 a barrel and crude oil $200 the effort will pay off.

The whole area from Alexandria westward to Sallum could be used as biofuel production center. We can build electric cars, but airplanes will still require liquid fuel. It’s a huge opportunity. Desertec should not only be about electricity.

@mattbrowne-I agree with you,there is a project called New Nile co is taking place in the red sea coast to grow algae,for the northern area from Alexandria to Sallum it has a great problem cause since the second world war millions of acres are full of mines which killed many Bedouins in this area(Arab did not share in that war but take all the negative consequences) we need that area to grow wheat to sustain life but these mines claim the lives of many and threat any investment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXZdFViYoB8&feature=player_embedded#at=332

@Hesham – Are the mines close to the road? If yes, why not move further inland? We’d just need a bit longer seawater pipelines to supply the microalgae farms. And building a new road (or perhaps just a railway) isn’t a big deal compared to the overall investment. But my point is, we need to challenge Egyptians and ask the to come up with ideas. All ideas will have to be evaluated. Winning innovation contests can be a very powerful incentive. Why should the winning ideas for efficient microalgae farming come from Western countries? Trial and error is a great method. And there are plenty of students who would be willing to invest the time. Perhaps the EU could sponsor the material needed to cultivate algae and extract the fuels.

@mattbrowne-as far as i read there is no maps for these mines,you know in 1942 the axis( Germany @ Italy)were attacking the allies(Great Britain) and both sides put these mines and left it . now these mines are corroded and unstable,sometimes it blows like that,add to that these area have lots of rain we need it to grow wheat,algae farm is projected on the red sea coast as seen in the video

@Hesham – In 1986 we took a bus from Alexandria to Marsa Matrouh, then south to Siwa Oasis. Are you saying there are still mines right next to these roads?

The red sea coast works just as well. Any seawater will do used in barren areas without the competition to food production (which is the main problem of first-generation biofuels), see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofuel#Advanced_biofuels

@Mattbrowne-For the mines ,yes as it is publicly mentioned in the media it is up there where El alamein war took place between Rommel And Montgomery,but there is no maps for them so some local Bedouin got maimed or killed from them,for algae you are right it is still too high to depend on unless with more research to get the price down,for the energy crisis(all over the world) it is not one size fits all,renewable energy have a challenge of the initial cost,but with increasing the awareness,doing feasible studies to get the initial cost back in about 5 years one example is the company i work for,we install solar water heater which the initial cost of about $1100 and saves that money in 3 years,doing the same study for other resources(geothermal,wind,hydraulic,biogas digester,biofuel,wave)we (mankind) will be partially independent of fossil fuel,that would bring the fuel price down.