Should doctors be able to question about guns at home?

I don’t think that doctors should be able to withhold treatment for any reason.

I don’t care whether doctors can ask about guns or not.

I cannot see how asking about guns in the home is any different from from asking about drugs, alcohol, pools, pets, Venetian blind cords, cooking utensils, or pencils. All may involve potential safety issues. How is one different from another?

@JilltheTooth I think some people think it is a matter of moral judgment. Or something.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir : Being a single mother by choice I’m no stranger to the moral judgment thing. That was kinda my point.

@JilltheTooth So in a way, is this a good thing? I mean, isn’t good that we are now limiting doctors from passing moral judgment in the ‘guise’ of caring about gun safety. Maybe I can use this same loophole against any and all physicians who mistreat trans folks.

Restricting what any doctor can ask about any potential health risk in order to educate his/her clients is not a good thing, but asking in order to pass judgment on any client is also not a good thing. ...In a perfect world…<sigh>

@JilltheTooth I don’t think Florida pediatricians believe in a vastly different world from their patients. So they’re just as gun-ho and wouldn’t be asking in judgment.

Then, as I said above, I think asking about any potential health risk in the home is not inappropriate.

Edit to add: Am I missing the point, here? Should I go back and re-read the article?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Thanks for the link to the article. My initial reaction was similar to yours…the proposal for the law must stem from some incident(s) that got a group of people wound up about it.

On the National Rifle Association’s news site, there is a video of a recorded news broadcast of an interview with NRA past president Marion Hammer explaining a bit on their reasoning for pushing the proposed law through.

If you click on the link, go to “Legislation” and “2011”. Under the “Videos” tab, there is a link to FL Gun Owner Patient Privacy Bill Moves Forward.

The NRA’s stance is that it is fine if doctors make available brochures on the dangers of owning a gun, a pool, etc., but it needs to be available to all patients and not just handed out based upon personal questions. What concerns me is if it prevents a doctor from discussing the topic, should a patient bring it up.

I am also curious about what kind of medical questions a patient might want to discuss with their doctor about the health dangers of having a gun in their household.

I must be especially naive. Wouldn’t it be in the NRA’s best interests to have gun safety discussed openly and education on same be offered freely? Anyone who has ever dealt with an inquisitive active 2 year old knows that any and all measures that can be taken to insure safety in the home should be taken…

This fucking country.

Most gun owners would not want to be on another database that lists if and what they have. As medical records are computerized and centrally stored who knows where the info might end up?
How about a compromise. If the doc has to offer some gun safety info, let the person opt out.

@JilltheTooth From the newscast, it sounds as if there may have been a case(s) where a patient felt that they were being profiled by having their doctor ask if they owned guns, how many, and where they were stored, and that they feel that this is an invasion of privacy. The NRA is also stating that some doctors feel that they have the right to choose who they want to treat. The NRA’s response is, “Well, no you don’t.”

It is an interesting newscast. I hope everyone on this thread listens to it. I am not a fan of the NRA in general, but there is an obligation to listen to their point-of-view, at least for those of us who are US citizens.

I’ll go have me a listen. Thanks, @Pied_Pfeffer .

Unless my doctor is studying gunshot wounds in the caliber of ammo I possess and is going to be the one on hand to make repairs if I blow a hole in myself then I don’t think it’s relevant for them to ask about guns in my home.

I think doctors should be able to ask. When I worked at a psych hospital it was standard at discharge to ask if someone had guns in their home. Banning the question would mean the doctor has less culpability though I guess? If a patient spoke of depression, and then went home and shot himself in the head, maybe a doctor might be blamed for not doing something more drastic in caring for the patient? But, really, a doctor can’t know everything that is at home. Drugs, guns, blades, etc. I guess my answer is I don’t think the government or the law should decide either way whether the doctor asks. It should not be mandatory or forbidden. I think? Maybe? I am interested in what other opinions will show up on this Q.

@Neizvestnaya : In light of @Simone_De_Beauvoir friend, who is going into pediactrics, I think it would be appropriate to ask.
I listened to the bit from the site that @Pied_Pfeffer linked and nowhere did I hear how many doctors chose not to treat. Are the numbers that high? Really? I was refused treatment for infertility in the 80s by some doctors because I was single, so I get the sense of outrage that goes with it, but the concern seems to be stressed about privacy. If they’re that concerned about their gun ownership being kept private, shouldn’t they be more concerned about the lack of privacy that that would imply related to Doctor Patient Confidentiality? Also, I honestly have no idea about this, but aren’t licenses for gun ownership a matter of public record somewhere?

@JilltheTooth Many gun owners do not register their guns, or have some registered and some not. They don’t want a record of the gun, because they fear one day when guns are made illegal the government will know where the guns are and collect them.

I can’t view the video on this computer. I don’t think a doctor should have the right to not treat someone based on gun ownerships. That sounds ridiculous.

@JLeslie : Yes, I know that, so you’re saying that the NRA is pushing legislation to protect the people who illegally own guns?

@JLeslie and @JilltheTooth: If I had a mental doctor then they should be able to ask about guns in my home. My regular doctor though? No. As for a children’s doctor, why? Are they surgeons? What can they contribute if there’s a gunshot wound accident with my kids?

I can’t view the video on my computer right now but if this is about doctors refusing care to people they know or think own guns then I definitely don’t agree. I can see if it’s a private physician because I can always take my medical business elsewhere but if it’s a doctor working and living by my insurance payments? No way.

I think that a doctor should be allowed to ask about anything. It doesn’t mean you have to answer truthfully, but I still think it’s ridiculous that a doctor can’t ask someone if they own a gun.

Besides, if a doctor can’t ask about a potential health risk, where will this lead? For fuck’s sake, if you don’t want your doctor to know that you have a gun, then don’t answer truthfully. A doctor should be allowed to ask, but a patient shouldn’t be legally obligated to answer truthfully.

Jeez, this is a free speech debate. Where are all those folks who think that moderation is trampling free speech when you need them?

@Neizvestnaya : I’m thinking in terms of a pediatrician educating the parents of a toddler because until you’ve been around one, you might not understand the remarkable ability they have to get at things that they shouldn’t. A knife block way back on a high counter or shelf may seem out of reach until said toddler turns into a climber (those damned monkey genes manifest at the most inconvenient times!) , for example. I don’t agree with the refusal to treat thing, but I think education in all forms should be encouraged.

@JilltheTooth just simply pushing legislation of gun owners period.

@Neizvestnaya I completely agree a doctor should not withold treatment. Internists, even pediatricians, sometimes treat for mental diagnosis. I could not see the video on my computer, so I am at a disadvantage for the specific case. It seems to me a law banning doctors from asking is not what should be in question, but rather if the doctor is discriminating.

Either Wundy’s writing a damned tome or his phone rang. Any bets on which it is?

Wait, did I completely miss the point of the article? I thought it was saying that it is illegal in Florida to ask if someone owns a gun, not that doctor cannot refuse treatment if someone owns a gun. I think a doctor should not refuse treatment under any circumstance, including gun ownership, but I think it is ridiculous that doctors won’t even be able to ask. What if there is something wrong with someone that is not immediately linked to guns, but it could be a possibility?

@JilltheTooth I think Wunday has a lot to say.

@KatawaGrey It seems the NRA is concerned the doctor might be profiling the patient and refuse to give him treatment. I find that stupid.

Hence the comment. Anybody else, I’d say they’d just forgotten about it….

@JilltheTooth: I believe most gun owners are responsible ones. I believe most gun owners with children in the house are responsible ones. I’ve been around small children where guns are in the homes. I’ve been a toddler and small child in homes where guns are. I’ve been educated as a child about guns and gun safety, it was just the thing that made sense. I don’t believe it’s a doctors place to educate me. My step children are all familiar with guns and gun safety, they came that way but I would’ve taken it upon myself had they not been.

@Neizvestnaya I am not sure it is a doctors place to educate a parent about guns, but for sure I think there are a whole bunch of stupid gun owners, just like there are a whole bunch of stupid people who do not own guns. So many parents think nothing bad will happen. Guns, pools, poisons, and on and on.

@Neizvestnaya That was my first thought, but I realized that isn’t the case at all. There are a lot of irresponsible gun owners, just look at the news.

@Adirondackwannabe: The news shows you what gets attention. You’d be bored stiff if they showed the percentage of responsible gun owner goings on in comparison. Why would you be interested in watching or reading about us researching/cleaning/shooting/storing, it’s so un ka_boom.

Firearms are a significant cause of death. Up there in the top ten, I believe. One of the biggest predictors of death is having an unsecured firearm in the household. A doctor’s job is to care for the health of his patients. It is crucial that patients be taught proper fireams use. They should be locked up in a separate cabinet from the bullets.

This bill just passed in Florida, but it is also pending in about ten other states. It is being supported by the NRA under a smear campaign that infers doctors are trying to take away citizens 2nd amendment rights. Or worse, reduce gun sales by scaring people about gun safety.

No. Wait. The NRA is pro gun safety. Hmmm. Must have gotten confused there.

I got drawn away by business, believe it or not

Ah, but @Neizvestnaya , although the majority of gun owners are responsible, educated and aware of safety measures, not all are fully aware of the fact that responsible for older children and adults does not necessarily apply to toddlers. I see nothing wrong with a pediatrician asking, and maybe suggesting extra steps to keep a child safe.

@wundayatta Damn, I woulda lost that bet.

@KatawaGrey The article states that the NRA is supporting the passing of this Florida law due to grounds of “moral judgement” (refusal to accept a patient who owns a gun), as well as “privacy intrusions” (having a record of their guns). That’s why I went to the NRA site to see what their side of the story was.

@Neizvestnaya Some of us have a choice on who our primary care physician is. I don’t know if this is the case for all people though, and I have no clue how it will work when we roll over to national health care.

Also, there is no mention in the article or the newscast, unless I missed it, on what type of doctors this law would restrict. I hope that if I ever end up in the emergency room due to a gunshot wound, that the medical team would not be restricted to asking questions on how it came about.

I agree most gun owners are responsible, but even if the percentage of irresponsible owners is low, that’s still a lot of unsafe guns out there. This law keeps a Dr from addressing a safety issue if needed.

@wundayatta: The NRA is not the Ministry of Firearms or Bible of Firearm Ownership. Responsible gun owners know their firearms are tools. Tools come with instructions and so do firearms. People don’t need the NRA to dictate how/what to do with their guns, people need to take better responsibility. For every poor example that makes the news, there are families with decades of safe gun handling.

Anybody else just get a “feeding frenzy” award for being here???

@Neizvestnaya If the NRA is such a model of gun education, how come they don’t want doctors to provide that education? That’s what I don’t get. It is only natural to think they are a hypocritical organization that lets politics be more important than good policy.

This is a public health issue. Do we go to the NRA for hypertension treatment? Then why should we go to them to address one of the most important public health emergencies in this country? What do they know about health?

Do doctors tell the NRA how to run shooting clinics (or whatever it is they do besides lobbying)? I can tell you this: I don’t want the NRA running health clinics. They’d end up deliberately giving patients small pox just to see if they’d survive on their own.

@JilltheTooth Most guns aren’t registered anywhere. Up until a few years ago I could buy a long gun in NY by answering three questions. Handguns require a permit in NY, but other states don’t. There’s a background check now, but it’s on the buyer, not necessarily on the gun.

@Adirondackwannabe : I seem to revel in exposing my ignorance for all to see. Thanks for the info…

@wundayatta, Up there in the top ten, I believe. Nope

I’m just going to go ahead and say that I’m not getting involved in yet another gun control debate on Fluther. I’m here to answer Simone, and be done with it.

Though I can understand the motivation behind asking, to a point, there are two main issues I know of off the top of my head with doctors asking about guns kept in the home.

1. Guns are a prime target for theft and many gun owners are aware of this. Therefore, they prefer that as few people as possible know they own them, because this minimizes the chance of word getting out and their guns being targeted. This is known in many segments of the gun culture as “maintaining good OPSEC,” a phrase borrowed from the military. Yes, you are supposed to be able to trust your doctor, but doctors are people too and are far from perfect, and seeing as they have access to privileged information, the thought of them knowing what kind of valuables you have just gets under some peoples’ skin. Building on this, I have known several responsible gun owners who are in the category of preferring that most people don’t know who have been asked by their pediatricians if they had any guns. When they said no, the pediatricians said something to the extent of “well your kids say otherwise!” This freaked them out a bit, and I can see why.

2. A lot of gun owners view these kinds of questions as a first step on a slippery slope to back-door gun legislation, de-facto registration, or even confiscation, and potentially a means of discrimination. This is not that much of a stretch, as gun banners and legislators have tried in the past to find crafty ways to circumvent existing nonrestrictive gun laws (think exorbitant taxes on ammunition components, ballistic fingerprinting, the proposed EPA ban on lead projectiles, etc.). Imagine that a law was passed which banned “at risk” individuals from owning weapons (Say, for example, that at risk meant patients with mild depression). If your doctor knew you were one of these individuals, and knew that you mentioned you owned guns at one point, you become an instant target for legal troubles. This is one of the fears that gun owners have about this issue, and while it may seem irrational to many on Fluther, it has some basis in reality.

My opinion: Doctors can ask whatever they want and I don’t think they should necessarily be forbidden from doing so. It doesn’t mean I have to answer them truthfully. This is coming from a paid NRA member.

@wundayatta The NRA isn’t objecting to the education on the dangers of guns and how to prevent gun accidents in the home. They support making brochures on the subject available to all patients. Their concern is with the potential profiling of patients based upon their owning a gun or having one in the household. The concern is twofold:

1.) The information may be placed into a database or on a paper record and accessible by people with ulterior motives for utilizing the information.

2.) That a doctor may refuse their services solely based upon the fact that they have exposure to a gun, no matter how well secured, in their home.

@Pied_Pfeffer I get that now. I only wish we had such strong lobbies to pressure doctors in other directions as well. Say for not making people feel unsafe or be sexist during visits, etc. But the NRA has money and are obsessive so I guess they get to tell doctors when not to judge. Other people don’t get that privilege.

I believe that doctors should absolutely be allowed to ask whether there are guns in the home. They should be allowed to ask about a swimming pool, bicycle helmets, car seats, etc. Their responsibility is keeping children healthy. All of these things have to do with keeping children healthy. Are they judging these folks? Maybe maybe not, but that isn’t what it is about, it is about keeping kids healthy. If they know these things are in the household they can be sure the parents are properly educated about them. It seems to me that a responsible gun owner would be fine with being asked this question because they know and understand the importance of gun safety.

As for the argument that it is a good thing because it keeps doctors from passing moral judgment, I’m not buying it. Doctors are human just like anyone else and a delayed vaccination schedule could cause them to judge a patent as much as knowing a patient owns a gun.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I am no government expert, but I don’t think that credit for this bill passing can be put on the shoulders of the NRA. There are associations, lobbyists, politicians, and the general public who all have a stake in this.

@Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard There are approximatey 30,000 deaths by firarms a year in the US, which would make your top ten list. I think around half are suicides? There are more who are just injured and don’t wind up dead.

I have to say, I would think it odd for my regular GP or pediatrician to out of nowhere ask if I had a gun at home without a specific reason. I can’t imagine doctors even want to go down that path? I am sending this question to some doctors.

If a parent of a friend of my child asked if I have guns at home and how they are stored, that makes sense to me.

The idea that gun owners all know what to do is similar to we shouldn’t teach birth control because parents should tell their kids about such things. I think both are bullshit. Way too many parents/adults are clueless all the time.

@JLeslie as a matter of course as each of my children grew into toddlers and got more inquisitive and agile, the pediatrician asked if we had any guns in the house.

The most people are responsible gun owners argument doesn’t hold much water for me here. Most people know that it is safer for children to wear bike helmets, but that doesn’t mean their kids wear them. Maybe a gentle nudge and some good information from a pediatrician could make them think about it more deeply and double check that their guns and their children are safe.

@SuperMouse I don’t have any kids, so this line of questioning has never occured to me. So, do doctors also advise on plugging up electrical outlets and keeping the strings from the window blinds away from the crib too? I find it surprising this is part of a pediatricians job.

@JLeslie: From what I understand, it is a doctor’s job to make sure his/her patients are as healthy as they can be and to advise them to the fullest extent in such a way as to keep them as healthy as possible. I also don’t have children, but I believe that some if not all OBGYN’s do advise pregnant women on how to baby proof their homes. It may be a parent’s job to just figure it out, but it is a pediatrician’s job to keep children alive and healthy. I don’t think pediatricians say, “well, this woman is obviously too stupid to be raising children, but it’s not my job to advise her on little things like electrical outlets. Let the buggers electrocute themselves if she forgets to plug up the outlets!”

@KatawaGrey : Thank you for not dying when you were little! There were a few moments….

@JilltheTooth: You’re welcome! :D

@JLeslie I can’t speak for all parents and all doctors, but from the time my children started to perambulate I was given all kinds of information on keeping them safe. Everything from the window blind thing to locking the bathroom door from the inside, to taking the knobs off the stove so they didn’t accidentally turn it on. Heck, they don’t let parents leave the hospital without a car seat and I had enough Back to Sleep literature that I could have wallpapered the baby’s room with it. The truth of the matter is that it is my responsibility to keep my kids safe, but not all parents know of all dangers and as far as I’m concerned prevention is a good thing.

Did I see it as a moral judgment that my middle son slept better on his stomach and I went with it? No. Was I worried about being reported or being forced to use one of those wedges to keep him on his stomach? No. Of course after reading this thread I am certain the state of California has me on a bad list because the boy’s lack of a flat head proved he slept sunny side down!

I’m opposed to any legislation that prohibits me from discussing something with a patient.

@Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard The CDC cuts the death stats in different ways. So the list you have doesn’t look at mechanism of death. If you look at tables 18–20 in this CDC report about death rates, you will see that firearms deaths are distributed between accidents, suicides, homicides, “legal interventions” and undetermined. When you add them all up, they put firearms deaths somewhere towards the bottom of the top 10.

@Rarebear‘s quip got me thinking… How are they going to monitor this? Are patients going to be trusted to snitch on their doctor? Will doctors have to record their conversations? Or will it be an honor system we’ll all just trust that pediatricians do not speak of such things?

@SuperMouse : Oh, Lordy, Lordy, there’s a thought to keep me up at night…conversations between drs and patients being recorded…how long before we go to video? With most of my medical afflictions being between my waist and my knees, should be…ew…I can’t go on…

There is no reason why a doctor should be prohibited by law from asking anything whatsoever, so long as the doctor has no legal authority to compel you to answer. In fact, I’m pretty sure that it’s a violation of the doctors’ First Amendment rights, while utterly failing to protect anyone else’s Second Amendment rights.
If you don’t like the questions your doctor is asking you, refuse to answer them or go to another doctor. Or don’t go to a doctor at all.
This is just more legislative insanity, pretty much what we’ve come to expect from the State of Florida.

I don’t think there should be a law saying a doctor can’t ask about guns in the home. Every pediatrician my son saw when we were seeing civilian doctors asked if there were guns in our home. None of them ever tried to educate me on gun safety as far as how I stored the guns, but they did explain how my son could hurt himself with said gun at the stage he was in in growth and development. So to me, that could be valuable. Sure, many gun owners know how to store their gun safely and do so, but understanding where their child is in growth and development and what kind of role that can play in gun safety isn’t necessary common knowledge for everyone.

@wundayatta: I can’t tell you much about the NRA, actually. What I can tell you is that I research, study, practice responsibility and advocate responsibility on my own and to those around me who might notice or ask about my personal firearms. I take responsibility.

Ironic that some of the very people who tout keeping government small are the ones who probably push for this legistlation. @Rarebear reinforced what bothered me most, as did many of you, I really don’t want the government controlling any conversations between my doctor and myself with legal consequences if we do talk about certain things.

@Seaofclouds @SuperMouse Well, this has been a real bit of new information for me. It seems like if there was going to be legislation about gun safety, and safety regarding children and guns, it would be given at the time of sale of the gun. But, I can also see OBGYN’s giving out general information about safety and the hospital the baby is born in as well.

I wonder if it has anything to do with where you live? Whether gun questions are asked by pediatricians. I want to do a question just asking parents if medical professionals asked them if they have guns in the house. Here in Memphis my husband and I were shocked by the wording in his companies handbooks about guns not allowed on company property. He is an HR person so he knows handbooks backwards and forwards, and here it was worded differently than any other city we have lived in, or even in other countries he has headed up.

@KatawaGrey @JilltheTooth I always say the first 5 years children are trying to kill themselves, trying to go back or something? Keys in electrical outlets, jumping off counters, all sorts of suicidal things.

@KatawaGrey I guess I don’t think of safety in the home as part of a doctors responsibility.

I guess besides the fact that the presence of guns don’t actively contribute to health issues like drugs and such do, there’s that whole fear of registries thing, which is well founded considering the Nazis and other totalitarian governments have used registries to disarm targeted populations before mass slaughter.

That and because the gun lobbies are way bigger than the ones that worry directly about people’s interests (aren’t we supposed to have those guns so we can defend our freedoms from tyranny? Someone mixed up priorities).

The penalties imposed through this legislation are outrageous for the doctor who brings up guns to a child. A few years in prison or something…

I have no issue with them asking. Guns are not as mundane a household hazard as venetian blind cords and buckets and pets.

Guns are a huge cause of accidental death and I think asking about firearms in the home with young children is a good thing.

Not unlike warning mom to to keep her Xanax next to the cookie jar.

Of course, I am not a gun advocate at all, they have their place but not something I’d glorify or would fight for.

I don’t see the point in a doctor asking about guns, I don’t see that as part of their job. That being said if they feel the need to ask then they should do so. I think the idea of making a law restricting anyone from asking any kind of question is ridiculous and a violation of free speech.

@Corey_D I can say in 20 years, I’ve never asked a kid that in my clinic.