What do you think about strip clubs?

Don’t assume it is just men. I happen to love watching the dancers in these clubs, maybe as much, if not more, than my husband.

Having said that, I don’t think there is anything wrong with it… as long as the woman is enjoying herself and feels safe in her environment. I’m also the type of person that doesn’t see anything wrong with legalized prostitution, if anything I suspect it would make it a much safer workplace for the people involved. As long as the workers (in either situation) are protected and properly compensated… and want to be there, I don’t see anything wrong with it.

I think “no.”

For some women strip clubs are a source of income… when coming from a family with a dark situation they go and get a job to earn money [ college ‘n other things like this ].

Indeed this will haunt them for a long LONG time.

@ninjacolin It wasn’t a yes or no question.

It’s true dead on. It’s a sad place more than anything. Especially if the women who perform are so desperate and poor ( like most spots in Asia ) and the men watching see them as “meat”. I would rather prefer a strip club where sexy women who have daytime jobs as doctors and Goldman Sachs brokers do it JUST SO they could make men drool all the way to the floor and then leave them bewildered and confused by refusing any offers of money. Lol.

I don’t think there’s anything morally wrong with them. I myself have a hard time being attracted to someone based solely on physical appearance, so I don’t go to them myself, but I don’t find them degrading – only each dancer can decide if they personally feel degraded. I find retail, in which people are forced to lie in order to earn enough money to live, to be far more degrading overall.

Hmm ..I don’t care for them in the least.

I know a couple people that frequent them (both males) and I know four people that worked as strippers (two males and two females).
The two males that frequent them are very um, by my standards, pigs (one of them is my lovely brother).
The four people who worked at them ..all of them wish they never did, especially the two women. Jeez, the stories I’ve heard ..just so wrong. Out of the four, one of the men still does it because he makes really great money (he moved to Japan about 8 years ago because they “love” him there). If it weren’t for his kids, he says he would have quit a long time ago.

If we simply must have strip clubs, I think they should be similar to what @mazingerz88 suggested. I don’t judge strippers. And I try not to judge those that frequent them ..until I know them better any ways.

What can I say it’s the only way I get to see naked girls…LOL

Strip club performers are just actors limiting themselves to a specific genre. They often stick with it because of the tips for their looks and a good performance.

I’m more concerned about young children being paraded in beauty pageants all trussed up and botoxed and waxed hairless and teeth capped than I am about the choice of an adult to work in a strip club. These children often do not know that they should have any say in the matter.

They make me really uncomfortable, though I’ve never been in one.

That said, I don’t have any political or moral opposition to them. They just aren’t my cup of tea.

Fact from fiction, truth from diction. I see them as further from hookers as gal hopping bed to bed for free because they believe they are in love with the womanizing hunk, or that he is cool so it ups their stock.

If you look at it logically it is quick money for the amount of time put into it, and you have to have some talent simply going out there in a g-string is not going to get it filled with $20s.

I wouldn’t care to see any daughter of mine working the strip but I would not want to see them in the military or sporting a badge more.

Back some years ago when I worked in a women’s orientated industry clients of mine worked the clubs in Oakland and SF. These were not hoochie girls, sexually abused, or deep in drugs; they were college girls who after they seen one of their friends try it and make some damn good money for about a total of 12 hours worth of work in a week tried it out to pay for books., rent, meals, car and car repairs. They made more in 3 days than they ever could flipping burgers or stocking shelves. When the had enough to take care of their need and tired of old guys hooting and pawing at them they quit; they didn’t get stuck in or sucked in as Hollywood would have you believe. It was the means to an end not the end of all means.

In a way they are empowered by lightening the horndogs of their hard earned cash.

My answer wasn’t a “yes or no” answer. It was a quote “no.” which literally happens across my mind whenever someone suggests going to one. The first thing I think is “no.”

First of all, like others I can’t seem to fully shake the moral displeasure of it. I don’t “want” to judge those women or patrons adversely but at the same time I don’t want to be constantly debating with myself on whether or not I’m lying about whether I judge them or not. But there’s other reasons too:

Strip clubs are synonymous with busking to me. Literally a tired old way, a boring way to busk. Just like the guy on the street corner with a hat out laughing with his friends not really doing anything worth being paid for.

I see money as an indicator of contribution in society. You have as much money as you contribute to the lives of others. A hat on the corner doesn’t do anything for anyone so I would only ever drop coins into a hat when it’s convenient. (eg. My hand is on some loose change in my pocket that’s been silently annoying me. I feel like a purpose is truly being served in such cases and I’m appreciative.)

A strip club, for me, is like walking into a den of careless, boring hat buskers who have nothing of significant value to offer me personally. I don’t want to touch those women. I don’t want to see them perform infront of ogling men and women. I don’t want to hear them being hollered at, I don’t want to imagine the lives of desperation that so many of them are notorious for having.. it’s a bad scene that doesn’t appeal to me.. I would feel like I should be the one being paid to have to endure it.

There’s no value for me to be there. I avoid it like I avoid gore movies. Emphatically, I think and often have to say to others: “No.”

@Hypocrisy_Central You are entitled to your opinion, and though I usually disagree with almost everything you say here, in this case I not only disagree with you – I find what you said to be offensive to anyone who has served in the armed forces, police and – because you said simply ”badge” – I’m going to include Firefighters too. Are you seriously equating the heroes of 9/11, or Seal Team six – with strippers?

Oh, and if you get around to it – what does In a way they are empowered by lightening the horndogs of their hard earned cash. even mean? I take pride in my knowledge of, and love of the English language – which isn’t even my first language – and I really could not understand what you meant there. Perhaps you’d like to take a go at my English slang question and explain it there as well?

@zen Since I seem to do well pissing people off equally on the left and the right might as well keep speaking my mind.
Are you seriously equating the heroes of 9/11, or Seal Team six – with strippers? No I don’t, for one thing strippers are not paid assassins doing the government’s dirty work. I would not mind them being a paramedic or a fire fighter, I’d be proud of that.

I find it offensive when the government or some hack in uniform saying they did something in my name. When they say “American people” lumping me in there like I was onboard with their blood lusting delusions of grandeur they did not do it for me in the least.

And to lighten a horndog of his cash is to get all those horny blokes at the strip club to pull their money they wage slaved all week for and stuff it in the g-string of the stripper; in a sense they are de facto employees of the stripper because they did the work and the stripper is taking the cash home.

Your opinion is your opinion and I love to hear them anyhow.

Mostly they make me sad. I see it as performers and watchers mutually degrading each other. It puts me in mind of the Roman circuses. I had a neighbor who worked as a stripper. I wonder what will become of her when she is too old for this kind of work.

It must be a fantastic way to make money, and as long as you don’t fall into the ‘desperate lives many of them are notorious for’ then you’re rolling in the cash!

There’s no decent person around who is going to be furious with you for your occupation (as there would be for having a job as a criminal or prostitute), pretty much everyone here has either said “do what you gotta do” or “hmm I won’t judge, I understand your decision but ew”.

If I was a hot chick with an appropriately proportioned body and high self-esteem I’d totally consider it!

(This may be my testosterone talking).

As long as no one is coerced into being there (either as a dancer or a patron) I don’t have any real problem with them.

I wish strip clubs didn’t exist. I have no judgement about the women who work them, except that it seems the majority of those women seem unhappy in their jobs if not from he start, fairly quickly. I think men really want to believe the women love it, get off on rubbing up against them for money, or letting some guy slip a $5 in their panty while dancing, but it is a job, and I would think most of time not fun or arrousing for the girl at all.

I think strip clubs, and porn contribute to men being warped about sex. I am not against a little porn, but men who watch a lot of it, or go to clubs constantly, risk a sort of sex addiction or dysfunction in my opinion. Men are already visual beings, reinforcing it can screw up a sex life between a couple.

They are not my cup of tea, I would feel uncomfortable in a strip club and so I don’t go. I don’t have any moral objection to them as long as no one is being coerced. They are a kind of porn I suppose and should be regulated.

The strip club by my house has about 2 pounds of chicken strips and fries for six bucks. And pints of PBR are $1.50. I go for the food. I eat facing the wall.

I don’t like them.

Either open up a good bar with good food and good drink, or open up a good whore house. Don’t try to combine the two things and fail at both.

I see them as a rip off, maybe it’s because I live on Mallorca, if I want to see tits, I can go to the beach. In fact, you see so many tits here, that after living here for a few years, tits are about as exciting as elbows.

They are very boring after a few visits. I also find it very embarrassing to see my friends suckered into to buying very expensive “drinks” for the girls.

I first saw them in Naples Italy when I was only 20. After my first visit, I went bike riding while my friends threw away their money. By the end of the week. I still had my money, enjoyed the Italian countryside and had some good exercise while my friends had hangovers and no money.

@Ron_C Suckered in? Like it is the strip clubs fault your friends are idiots? Do you think peer pressure is part of the dynamic in those situations? The guys want to be cool and are supposed to like naked women and spending money like there is plenty where that came from. I think it happens among women too, don’t get me wrong. I just wonder how much people really enjoy the whole thing or just thing they are supposed to. Your time in Italy sounds much more appealing to me.

I don’t have anything against Strip Clubs. For some it as a practical way to earn money. Illegal jobs are more denigrating.

Throwing a bunch of money at a woman you’re not ever going to fuck seems like a waste of time to me. You can do that much more cheaply on a bad date. To each his own, though. I have no problem with others going to look at the boobies.

i prefer strip hearts and strip spades anyway.

@JLeslie of course my friends were idiots. You are correct about the peer pressure. The girls are in competition with the other girls, and the guys are just guys doing the macho thing until their money runs out.

I notice that this affects mostly young guys. Older guys that hang out in those places have other problems.

As for the bike, I once climbed Mt. Vesuvius. It was much more fun going down than pedaling up.

Well, even though there are several in the Hartford area, I haven’t been to one in… decades. And as much as I like looking at naked young women, I can’t imagine going to one again. So I won’t say that I approve of them, but I don’t find them so awful that they should be closed down or done away with, either. There are a lot of things I feel that way about.

I think @Pied_Pfeffer had the best answer (and I see that I’m not alone in that thought) in that the people entering to spend money and the people performing in those clubs, at least they are nominal adults and have a nominal choice in the matter.

Those baby beauty pageants, though, they truly repulse me.

Never been to one and that probably won’t change.

I think they are exploitive and degrading, and, it is a well known fact, that most of the women that work in these establishments have many issues, mostly certain personality disorders and plenty of drug & alcohol abuse. I agree they are one step above prostitution.

They thrive because of the general patrons low level of spiritual evolution and immaturity.

A person of true integrity does not participate in pain and shame based industries.

@Ron_C Funny, when I think of Italy, strip clubs don’t come to mind at all. What a miss. The women on the street are beautiful, the food, the history. Yeah, idiots. Lol.

So I assume that everyone has the same problems with Chippendales.

I find the whole thing works okay by having a mindset of appreciation. Appreciating a stripper’s dancing skill, their body, and the interaction if she’s appealing enough to ask for some personal attention. (It took me a good while to figure that out.)

I hardly ever go—most of the time it comes about at the tail end of a night out with the guys (especially after one friend’s divorce). My girlfriend is probably more interested in going than I am. We’ve gone together a number of times, and she was the last one to suggest it a few months ago. It can be nice going with her, because it creates some electricity having a girl in front of you and one to your side (or watching the girl dance for my girlfriend).

There’s nothing sadder, though, than a desperate stripper or one who’s just not into what she’s doing. That is a royal buzzkill. I also don’t get guys who have to go to strip clubs. Thankfully, no one in my social circle is like that.

@johnpowell my mother took me to a chippendale’s show when I was 17 (no worries it didn’t damage me at all). I spent the whole time running through my beliefs around female strippers vs. male strippers.

Personally, I think those guys were being degraded but I don’t know how much they cared.

My BIL is a guy who frequents strip clubs. I kind of get why he does: he has a terrible time connecting with women on any kind of real level. He’s got issues.

I think the world would be a slightly better place if strip joints didn’t exist. BUT everyone involved are adults (hopefully) and they have a right to earn money in such a way.

@tranquilsea :: I have only been a few times (around 5) when I wasn’t concerned with getting a cheap dinner and that was with friends.

But there are the creepy dudes who just glare while leaning over the stage. That stuff freaks me out.

@tranquilsea Yes, men, women, all equal. I have been to parties with male strippers and I find it to be not enjoyable at all. Watching some unknown man to me strip does nothing for me, and I perceive them as kind of icky to be honest.

Everyone likes a fantasy and strip clubs are an exciting outlet. Sure, only dumb people spend mounds of cash for the fantasy, despite the fact that real sex is free. But let’s face it: we have dumb people in our midst. We have to do something with them. It’s entertainment, albeit often seedy. Most people have their useless purchases in life, these folks just have different tastes.

On the stripper side, compared to prostitution, it’s a much healthier profession, and the pay is excellent, and for the right people, it can be sexy and empowering. Sure they’re being degraded, but who cares? It doesn’t damage them, or hurt anyone. Whether or not they enjoy this controlled harassment, a thousand dollars on a Saturday night is a good price point for almost any job that doesn’t do any damage.

A strip club is a safe and controlled playspace for customers to role play as entitled, rich, virile, studs, and for strippers to play into that fantasy, pretending to be the most sexually gifted, most desirable, and most desiring women on earth. Thankfully the stripper and the customer will not sleep together, and neither will have to reveal to the other that they are none of these things.

Strip on! (but if I go, expect me just to sit there with a few beers and maybe chat with the bartender, spending maybe $20)

@JLeslie I think the whole concept of male strippers is a sort of “thumb our collective noses in the general direction of men”. I seriously doubt this phenomena would exist if there was no such thing as female strip clubs.

I have no doubt some women enjoy it but I certainly don’t.

This may seem strange but I view the whole stripper phenomena as worse than prostitution. At least with prostitution you are actually trying to satisfy some person sexually. Especially those poor schleps that can’t get another person to have sex with them. We have a need to have sex but I don’t know that we have a need to see someone strip.

I’ve never been to a strip club. I don’t mind their existence. The work can easily slide into sex work, which pays a lot more. The men who go—well, I imagine it’s so they can fantasize about fucking the girls, and maybe they actually get to. But if you don’t find a private room, then it’s hard to imagine jerking off in public. But surely that’s what guys are there to do? Otherwise why would you bother to go get all excited and have nothing to do with that energy?

I’m not a great believer in sex for sex’ sake. I think that it’s the relationship that makes sex good. If you buy sex, you dehumanize both yourself and the girl. Eventually, if you do it enough, you end up having no idea what a person is nor who you are. I guess this is what people call objectification.

I think strip clubs are one step on the road towards objectification. They don’t have to go that way. They can be entertainment that is not soulless. But I suspect most of it is the other kind of entertainment. The kind that leads to the separation of soul and body.

That’s what I think. But I would never try to ban them.

It’s waste of money.

I’m cool with them. Some people make money off their minds, some off their social skills, some off their muscles, some off their bodies.

Thanks for all your answers. I must say that I agree with @wundayatta almost word for word.

@JLeslie

I think comparing Chippendale dancers to female strippers is like comparing apples to oranges.
Most women view male strippers as silly, and not serious, ‘entertainment.’

Few females become addicted to sexual arousal in the way ,many men do.

Male strippers, are, truly, a joke, to women, and the female clubs are deadly serious in the disturbed and objectifying nature of many men they attract.

My mind was forever altered when an acquaintance’s girlfriend turned out to be a stripper. I’d already grown to like her before I found out, so some of my prejudice was undermined. She was sweet and intelligent and philosophical – not what I expected.

Several of us talked with her about her job. She was candid about the range of women doing the work – some of them druggies, whores, or manhaters. But many of them like her – enjoying the performance aspects, and the sense of power that she got from it. She wasn’t defensive or polemic which was very disarming.

We went to see her dance (men and women) and it was easier to see the dancers as performers, wanting to engage and entertain their audience.

I haven’t been to a strip club in many years, but if I was to go again, I think I’d see them as performers – like myself – just trying to get the audience up.

I agree with @MyNewtBoobs. I’m annoyed when people say something is degrading to a whole group of people when only that person can really say whether they feel degraded or not.

Don’t get me wrong, I feel very sad for people who feel they have no other option but I also know of a few women who work in a strip club not far from where they live and they claim to enjoy their job. They make more money than I do in all three of my jobs and they certainly don’t strike me as desperate women.

I think some of it depends on the establishment. I used to go to night clubs in FL and there were dancer, scantily dressed, but not stripping. I have no problem with that. I am sure some men are checking them out, but they are not being tipped, they are part of the club scene. Are we counting them?

@Coloma You are probably right. It probably is different. Although there are gay clubs I have been to that have naked men dancing, and in that circumstance I think it is very similar. It is more about who is doing the looking than the dancing I guess? I think we are both saying the same thing.

Chippendales or any male dancers have it worse than the female strippers I’ve seen. Women are permitted to grab at the um, packages of the guys that are dancing, I’ve never seen that at a gentleman’s club. I worked in a nightclub that had male revue once a week and the women that were there for the show were gross… go to a mens’ club to watch women dance on a stage and take their clothes off… the guys can’t touch the women, except to give them money. Maybe I’ve just been to more upscale men’s clubs, but the interaction is closely monitored. Even the couch dances, there’s a guy that stands right out side the door and you’re not allowed to touch the girl… I mean she can wriggle allover you, but you can’t touch her.

The girls who strip make great money, and if they’re not falling into the pitfalls that can come with the industry (drugs, alcohol abuse, back-room bj’s for $$) then they can earn a good living and I see no shame in it. do I want BETTER for my daughter, yes I do. But if my kid weren’t an academic, if it was the difference between a crappy back breaking job and doing this, then I think I’d understand.

To those of you who are against strip-clubs, do you watch porn and if so, how do you rationalize that?

A strip club is the only place in the world a man can go where he can feel like a woman. As soon as he walks through those doors women are sizing him up and seeking his attention. “Would you like to come with me? Can I interest you in a private dance?”…and for the first time in his life, he gets to say “nope!”

@christine215

There is another question in progress about porn, if you wish to share in the collective opinions. Search ” NSFW Does porn lead to divorce?”

I was trying to remember what striptease thing I was thinking about ..finally remembered. I think Neo-Burlesque (more about the tease than the stripping) is classier and not as objectifying – especially with both genders involved.

Strip clubs aren’t always all about sleaze and womanizing. Some of the women enjoy what they do, and love the attention. Some of the men enjoy watching them, as it unwinds and distresses them. A good mix, I’d say.
It certainly does suck if a woman seems to think that this is her only calling, but really, I don’t see the difference in between that and me thinking that being a waitress in some dive is the only thing I’m good at. I just don’t have the sexuality and gender issues to deal with, so it’s not apparent, I guess.
There could be much worse than strip clubs, and there certainly has been. There still is, like prostitution rings run by bikers or gangsters. :/

@Symbeline Sorry, but I disagree. It’s still a cultural thing – and again, I am not judging the men and women involved. I won’t take apart what you wrote – as you are entitled to your opinion. But in certain parts of Europe, where going topless is very common – I doubt whether anyone would pay to see a woman take off her top in a club.

In American, and western society where this is uncommon, strip clubs exist. I don’t like to compare this line of work with waitressing (waiting – waitstaff – sorry for being so un pc – I’m just continuing your line of thought) – for waitressing, even in a dive, even if the person feels they can do nothing else is still – serving food.

Someone owns a business, say a restaurant. Someone cooks, someone cleans and someone serves the food. It’s not unlike any business, or factory with the “low man” on the assembly line.

I do not equate waitressing to stripping, I cannot equate it. So is a stewardess (sorry flight attendant) also like a stripper?

Sometimes it’s their choice – often it is not. It is still taking off clothes – and having drunken men slobber all over them. It’s not the same as serving food. Sorry. For me, it’s just sad.

It is an individual’s right to choose how they want to make a living. But I am saddened that women choose to turn themselves into objects, a collection of anatomical parts for men who obviously view them as such. I cannot imagine anyone proudly stating to a parent, child, or other that they take their clothes off for a living.

The worst part I think is that there are always many strip joints clustered around military bases. How difficult it is for women in the military trying to be taken seriously as equal human beings when across the street other women are trivializing themselves. If all women demanded respect and would stop buying into the role of sexual object, perhaps the world would begin to change its attitude as well.

@rooeytoo Good point.

@rooeytoo – there is play, and then there is real life. In a strip club, security is maintained, dancers are of age, and there is a very clear boundary about what is okay and what is not. Don’t disregard the fantasy elements of a strip club! This is mutual lewd behavior, done safely and consensually. The customers typically have some sexual energy to work out, and the strippers will oblige them (and take their money, of course). Who cares that within a strip club, the girls are treated like pieces of meat? This isn’t real life, and the rules are clear.

As an analogy, the BDSM scene is full of degrading and humiliating acts that horny people get off on, but there are rules, and ongoing consent, underlining everything. A person who enjoys slapping women under these rules doesn’t come out of a scene and believe that all women deserves to be slapped, or that they can be regardless of their willingness. A strip club is a similar controlled fantasy.

That said, I think a lot of the negative reactions towards strip clubs are more related to some of the broader problems in the industry. Many women surely are coerced to strip, or to continuing stripping, or to prostitute themselves by manipulative bosses who don’t care about them, or boyfriends who leech off their earnings, or by any number of life factors. In all cases, if the consent of the dancer is not ongoing, or the safety of the job is compromised, it is a powerfully bad thing. Perhaps much of this could be avoided by removing the stigmas of stripping and acknowledging it as a legitimate form of entertainment and employment. Just saying…

Of course, the real answer is probably just that strip clubs are hated because as a society, we demonize male sexuality, but that’s another thread.

@Smashley I think I’ve made my point – so I won’t rehash. But This isn’t real life, and the rules are clear. Seriously? Strip clubs aren’t real life? It’s a job, a degrading one, and the strippers go home to their lives and families like everyone else. What exactly isn’t real life about it?

@zen It’s not real life. It’s a fantasy of consenting parties. The males have sexual energy to display, and the women are willing to pretend they are receptive for money. It’s not a degrading job, if you are not degraded. People will ogle you, and objectify you, and say degrading things, but the stripper herself is no more degraded than she is in her own resolve. For the most part, women willing to be in this profession understand the score clearly. They put on a show, and the men shell out wads of cash. Who cares what the customers think about them? Real life begins again when the stripper takes the money home and buys groceries, and the customer wakes up, realizing what a fool he’d been to spend so much.

We shall agree to disagree then.

Few people comment on my longer posts, so I’m keen to keep it up. I know we disagree, I just don’t know about what.

@Smashley – I would say it depends on how you define male sexuality. But who exactly demonizes male sexuality? I think our culture applauds, glorifies, perpetuates the worst aspects of it. That is why strip clubs exist and why the “boys will be boys” argument still prevails and absolves much rude and impolite behavior.

@zen

Well… I was starting to look up “Europe strip clubs” (and getting a fair number of hits, a lot of them NSFW, by the way) and then it occurred to me: In the States we don’t have official red-light districts, either.

Sex seems to sell everywhere, my friend, even where it is possible to see half-naked women “in the real world”, men will still pay to do it in a club, too. Or to buy the “services” outright in a semi-sanctioned setting.

And @Smashley has a point. The “degrading” aspects of strip clubs seem to be a subjective thing. Some would consider it degrading to work in the cheap diner or cleaning hotel rooms or working a menial job on an assembly line. A woman who can attract men to pay money to watch her disrobe might feel that they are the degraded ones, and that she has control over them.

Except in the case of slavery, which I admit is a worldwide concern, and even here in the US, it seems to me that women make the choice to take up that profession or not. So if they also consider it degrading, then at least they have decided that their degradation is worth the price they receive.

He’s also perfectly right about this not being “real life”. It’s a performance. What, in the end, is the difference between the performer taking off her clothes on a stage from one night to another, or a movie actress doing essentially the same thing? Oh, there are differences in scripts, production values, agents, set design, etc., but when you strip away the veneer it’s all show biz.

@zen I agree with what you wrote in response to @Symbeline, but there are some watressing jobs that sort of come closer to the line than others. Hooters waitresses are there to be oggled and serve food. Look at the name of the establishment, and they are dressed in skimpy clothes. In FL it is not really a big deal, since it is common to see women in bathing suits, but in other parts of the country I think it probably is.

Okay, it’s my post so I feel compelled to reply – but I do feel that I’ve stated my position several times already. For starters, prostitution is horrific. Stripping is one step away, and it’s interesting that @WasCy wrote about slavery – because they are all connected.

Waitressing is a job. Period.

@JLeslie Hooters is an example of the lowliest denominator – and the exception. They are still dressed – just in a way as to tittilate the customer. Again – it’s the exception and I am not fond of this either. Why? Because it’s all degrading and as someone else wrote here – keeps bringing us back to a time when women were objectified and not taken seriously.

I didn’t want to go this route – I don’t want to sound holier-than-thou – and I don’t think it’s black and white. Like I said over and over – I don’t judge or blame – I’m just saddened by it – and wishing it didn’t exist. I have a feeling that those here with mothers, sisters and especially daughters would not want them to be a part of the sex trade.

It’s naive, it’s utopian – I’ve said as much. I am not above any of this. I just wish it weren’t so. And no-one can convince me that the majority of women involved in prostitution, stripping – and certainly not slavery – wished it upon themselves – and are happy. There are always exceptions – in every aspect of society. I just wish it weren’t a necessity of sorts. It seems like a very low, sad, shallow and painful side of supply and demand. IMHO.

@zen. I agree with you. I said as much in my first answer. I wish it didn’t exist, and what saddens me most is I think the majority of women hate it, if not at first, then within time as the reality of it sets in, or as they mature.

@rooeytoo – Like I said, such a topic is best left to another thread. Here’s some interesting reading on the subject though. Not specifically stripping related, but I think it says a lot about the double standards presented to men that we often overlook.

@Smashley Here, where?

We need the imput of @Bambi_Snow , someone who is on the front lines of this..

Well..too bad I never wanted to be a stripper, I’d have had a great name..“Boots Merrywood.”
Yep, some Merry-Wood had I been a dancer. lol
Time for some levity, we’ve ‘stripped’ this question to the ‘bone.’ methinks.
How much longer can we G-string it along? ;-)

Oops. I messed up the link…

@zen You don’t have to apologize for disagreeing. :p I like seeing different views and learning stuff; did you think I was gonna get pissed or something? XD

If I may clarify myself though, when I compare waitressing to strippers, I’m not talking about the intent behind both establishments, and what they are. I mean, rather, the issue of choices and relegating one’s ambitions to certain limitations. That really didn’t have anything to do with the sex aspect, although that was me kinda going off topic, or too strongly on the choice thing. Sorreh. XD I just mean, it sucks when people don’t think they have a choice at all; whether that’s related towards sex or some other thing completely. (disregarding the issues of necessity or usefulness in different jobs and stuff, but good point about that)
I see and agree with the reasons why it makes you sad; but I don’t think stripping is like prostitution or slavery. Nobody is forced to do it or go see it. If people do think that, yes, a strip club may help to encourage such a fallacy, but I think the blame would be greater coming from elsewhere, like the media, politics and how people are being raised. If anything, strip clubs are just stupid lol.
Maybe this is off topic but it makes me think of something. In relation to this, what’s your opinion on pornographic films?

Oh and if Hooters is bad…I heard about this restaurant in Germany where the tables are like giant glass coffins…with a naked woman inside. So you look at her while you eat. I admit, I find that kinda odd.

I hate Hooters.

@Symbeline And there are places where dinner is served on a woman’s body.

@rooeytoo wrote: The worst part I think is that there are always many strip joints clustered around military bases. How difficult it is for women in the military trying to be taken seriously as equal human beings when across the street other women are trivializing themselves. If all women demanded respect and would stop buying into the role of sexual object, perhaps the world would begin to change its attitude as well.

Sexual assault of female soldiers overseas became such an issue in the beginning of the war in Iraq that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld ordered an investigation and held senate hearings over the matter. Over 100 cases were reported within the first eighteen months of the war. Sen. Susan Collins of the Armed Services Committee said “What does it say about us as a people, as a nation, as the foremost military in the world when our women soldiers sometimes have more to fear from their fellow soldiers than from the enemy?” The Pentagon has estimated that 80% to 90% of sexual assault cases go unreported. The fear of the repercussions and embarrassment that could likely follow a report is enough to keep the silence.

Source

I see a connection.

@zen That article freaks me out. This world is a piece of shit lol.

@zen The Pentagon has estimated that 80% to 90% of sexual assault cases go unreported. The fear of the repercussions and embarrassment that could likely follow a report is enough to keep the silence. Thought it is somewhat a deviation off the path the question started men throughout history have made merchandise of women in the right situation be they royals, barbarians, war victors taking concubine, etc. Is the fact that 80% to 90% of sexual assaults go unpunished is because of strip clubs or do the women themselves have a de facto enabling part in it by not saying because they don’t want to admit it happened, fear they won’t be taken seriously, think before any trial has happened that nothing will be done, etc? Doesn’t their silence allow that captain or Staff sergeant to remain free and emboldened to attack another female soldier? If you had a good ideal you are going to get away with it, why stop? If someone didn’t speak up Abu Ghraib would have gone on how long? And when no one seen anything happening how many more would have sprung up? Again, fodder for another thread but maybe it is not all on strip clubs if they even played a part at all.

Men are pigs basically.

There was a lively discussion on TV the other day re. new anti-smoking laws. Pro and con, but basically it’s the same old story – smokers say get out of my face – and don’t tell me what to do – especially in public, outdoor places – non-smokers say I don’t want to breathe your second-hand smoke.

What was interesting about it – and pertains to this discussion – is what one of the advocates of the law said; it’s sad that we even need them, and why do they have all these laws anyway? Isn’t it a basic right anyway? Isn’t it just plain sense? Isn’t it just common courtesy and politeness and etiquette to not smoke in someone’s face? If you drink alcohol, or even eat crap – it’s your body you’re affecting – but if you smoke in my face – you are killing me too.

The sad thing is that if we, as a society, condone these strip clubs – then nothing will happen – and sexual misconduct, and rape (and don’t get me started about rape being just violence – I don’t believe that crap) and any form of sexual abuse towards (mainly) women – will continue to thrive.

Society, as much as we think we are wonderful and special – and I do think fluther (those who will post here anyway – the lurkers I don’t know – I have to at least read what they think) basically is still in the 50’s. Feminism has helped alot – and has promoted some issues – but look at those numbers in the army!!!

Do you know why there are female fighterpilots but no female submariners?

@zen I would think submariners is much more tricky. Such close quarters. I am not even talking about sexual attacks, I mean basic privacy would be difficult I would think?

I said at the top that I think excessive porn and strip clubs warp mens ideas of sex, and alter their ability to enjoy sex without tons of visual stimulization (this is just my own thoughts, and info I have gathered from friends, I have never really read up on the subject) but to thinkit causes men to be sexually abusive or rapists God forbid, can that really be true? Or is it just these deviant men who ar e violent towards women also frequent strip clubs?

@Hypocrisy_Central The women probably are not taken seriously in many instances. The troops are also supposed to keep things among themselves, don’t rock the boat. Women react very differently depending on the woman, some want to try and forget and push it to the back of their minds, move forward. Some want to get the person, want justice. It varies. Look at the incidence of hazing and bullshit initiation practices in the military, Greek frats on college campuses, men almost die, but they don’t tell, everyone keeps quiet. Why?

@JLeslie Look at the incidence of hazing and bullshit initiation practices in the military, Greek frats on college campuses, men almost die, but they don’t tell, everyone keeps quiet. Why?

Because humans are stupid.

@PluckyDog I will never understand purposely asking someone to do something embarrassing or dangerous to themselves or others. I find it very disconcerting. I think men much more often than women do this shit. I will never understand it.

Like I said: What was interesting about it – and pertains to this discussion – is what one of the advocates of the law said; it’s sad that we even need them, and why do they have all these laws anyway? Isn’t it a basic right anyway? Isn’t it just plain sense?

I guess the answer is no.

We had to abolish slavery – not so very long ago.

The Holocaust showed us that a mere 60 years ago – the most cultured and intelligent of people could be swayed and persuaded to believe they were, indeed, superior to others – and gas them. Jews, Gypsies, Christians, Black and Gays (have I left anyone out – sorry) were considered sub-human – and by the Germans at that.

Women started voting and got out of the kitchen, when was that?

Blacks rode in the back of the bus and couldn’t even get into certain establishments until when was that? Not very long ago.

Don’t get me started on women’s rights with a full 1/6 of the world’s population – namely the Arabs. Look at that courageous woman who drove in Saudi Arabia recently. They aren’t even allowed to drive there – how much freedom could they possibly have – and that’s in an American partner country – Saudi Arabia!!!

In short, well not really anymore, it’s just sad. But certain changes might require law.

If only we lived in a (global) society where people respected each other’s rights, personal space – and freedoms. Yes, this might sound ironic to some – based on where I live – but I do not represent anyone but myself – my hopes – my dreams.

Gotta go to work now – see ya later.

@zen – very well put, ga and lurve to you!

On the topic of women in submarines

I don’t know how many there are now, but that article is a year old.

@zen Yes, lots of lurve for that last one. Gene Roddenberry is looking down on you with a big smile.

@zen You still didn’t connect strip clubs with sexual violence or abuse, you just stated that ideally, we would live in a global society where everyone’s rights, personal space and freedoms were respected. Yes, I agree that that would be lovely. That is why I respect the decisions of strippers and customers to make any arrangement they like, whether I find it unsavory or not. They are harming no one, and they have rights and personal space and freedoms, and put themselves in this situation by their own consent, and return everyday by their continued and ongoing consent.

If you want people to be free, allow them to entertain themselves as they please, and enter into contractual agreements that suit them, so long as no real harm is done. Even if there were a connection with rates of violent crime, stripping still wouldn’t be at fault. If you respect people and their freedom, you must hold each individual accountable for their actions, and not look for something you naturally despise to blame. Stripping is entertainment, and a very different thing than rape.

Even in ideal Star Trek future, do you really think that there wouldn’t be strip clubs? People will still be horny, and crave entertainment and titillation. Would you frown upon a stripper holodeck program? What if the club was worked by real women who just genuinely enjoyed dancing and being the center of sexual attention, in a moneyless society? Surely that kind of play would exist and be totally harmless as long as standards of safety and consent are met. Why is the exchange of money for this play so wrong?

Sure there are a lot of systemic problems with the stripping industry, which either contribute to society’s negative opinions of them, or are fueled by them, but the bottom line is that a person who comes out of a strip club with a lack of respect for women, entered with the same opinion. Sure, the sex industry (which I do consider stripping and pornography to be a part of,) can provide the sexual excitement or aggravation that will drive a violent sexual deviant to assault a person, but it doesn’t cause him to do it. Freedom and respect also means accountability.

@Smashley “What if the club was worked by real women who just genuinely enjoyed dancing and being the center of sexual attention, in a moneyless society?”

Interesting question. I have my doubts that many women would, in fact, choose to spend their time in such an activity in moneyless society.

@tranquilsea I like @Smashley ‘s response. I don’t personally, care for strip clubs because I find it boring (seen quite a number of boobs in my life and I find the behavior of the male clients embarrassing.

@Smashley Let’s see: saved from stripclubs.org

http://melindatankardreist.com/2011/03/not-just-harmless-fun-how-strip-club-harm-women/

Melbourne

Heavy reading

Another 5,000,000 plus results from google – there is a lot of stuff out there on the subject

@tranquilsea They may not be in the majority, but I humbly, must beg to differ.

@zen I’m pretty sure I mentioned that there were a lot of problems in the industry. Really bad ones, in fact. I never denied that. Strip clubs tend to be nasty, unsavory places, populated by lowlifes. Duhh… this is essentially prostitution, and the same control techniques of pimp/prostitute that exist in that world, also extend to this part of the sex industry. There is risk from patrons as well, obviously. But these realities aren’t about the fundamental nature of taking off your clothes for money. Your links are about the people who are hurt in the shittyness that sometimes is a modern strip club, however, not about how the act of objectification or degradation of strippers in a safe, consensual situation, causes any social ill.

Sure, strip clubs are often seedy, but there is no harm to a stripper unless she is being emotional or physically hurt, or she is stripping without giving, or being able to give, consent. If an owner extorts a stripper into practicing prostitution, that’s not consent. If a drunken patron assaults a dancer as she leaves the building, her job isn’t safe. I argue that these and worse situations occur so often because stripping holds a taboo similar to prostitution, and is forced to the fringes of society, where, as always, bad things happen because no one is watching.

I thought the most interesting article was the one that rightly asserted stripping’s link to prostitution, and suggested that we regulate strip clubs like we do brothels. The biggest stipulation that no alcohol may be served. I think this would drastically change the environment for the better. Not that I’m against booze, it’s just not a good mix when you’re engaging in role play and fantasy. The line gets blurry.

I am interested to hear your thoughts on stripping in Gene Roddenberry’s 24th century.
But thanks for the loads of info though, I do try to read through it all.

@Smashley You wrote @zen You still didn’t connect strip clubs with sexual violence or abuse so I looked up the connection. And to see what the links were, or were not is to say you read/looked at 5 million articles and websites.

I don’t really need the stats to feel sad and bad about this. It’s just obvious to me, without any research at all.

You wrote Sure, strip clubs are often seedy, but there is no harm to a stripper unless she is being emotional or physically hurt, or she is stripping without giving, or being able to give, consent.

Let’s just drop it. We are not in agreement about anything.

@Smashley How can you beg to differ with this? “I have my doubts that many women would”

I’m a woman and I’ve talked to many women and here’s no surprise: none have mentioned stripping as being a goal to strive for. I did indicate, in my original statement, that some woman may choose something like that. But I have my doubts.

There’s no question that some women do choose stripping.

I just think its funny how they are dubbed as “Gentlemen’s Club”.

I think they’re pointless. As far as my understanding, you can’t touch the girls or have sex with them, so what’s the point of going? If you’re single, then you’ll be going home alone and horny.

@AshlynM Let’s think about this. Men pay to go there. Some men go there a lot. Is it reasonable to think they aren’t getting anything out of it? No, it isn’t.

Is it possible that if you went to one you would not get the same thing out of it that they do? Why of course.

Is it possible that there are illegal activities going on that alleviate men going home horny? I’ve heard that is fairly common.

Do some men enjoy just watching? Pretty much all (heterosexual) men enjoy watching. For some, that’s enough.