To what degree are we willing to endorse torture and physical/corporal punishment and under what criteria do/can we justify it?

Not at all, and it’s neither justified or useful. It’s been proven time and again that these techniques don’t adequately work. It’s just about power trips for sick fucks who get off on domination.

I am not willing to endorse torture at all.

There is no way to justify it.

@incendiary_dan Yet, in our names are these things done…routinely. In our prisons and jails and by our government through its various departments and agencies.

@marinelife Quite so, but…yet, it is done and done with our silence. You do know the old legal maxim: “Silence gives consent.” What are we then to do about it?

@throssog Yea, and that’s why I advocate prison abolition and demilitarization. And government abolition.

@incendiary_dan Then what will we do with our prisoners?

@incendiary_dan Would that it were so – and, more over, that we had a population who could live, peacefully under such conditions. Have you familiarity with the criminologist Nils Christi? Perhaps Lonnie Athens? Very interesting reading. I commend them to your attention.

torture is for entertainment purposes only.

@ninjacolin May it be that you are well entertained in the not too distant future. What you wish for another often becomes your own, eh?

The use of torture in inexcusable, and impractical.
It is not used in the Country I was born in.

@chyna Fantastic question. In most cases, I don’t think that prisoners should be there at all. The sheer number of prisoners in the penal system are inflated by the prison-industrial complex that directly influences laws and the application of them in order to increase profits to private prisons. This has been going on since at least the ‘80s. Michelle Alexander, Angela Davis, and numerous others have pointed out that the penal system is used to systematically target and disproportionately punish people of color, particularly young black men. For those minor offenders who have simply been the victims of the injustice system, I say free them, perhaps offering some sort of reform program. Of course, this has to go hand in hand with more complete and just forms of economic change in general.

As for violent criminals, rapists and mass-murderers and such, simply shoot them. Or hang them, I don’t care really.

In general, I’m in support of create local ways to deal with disfunctional behavior, rather than the overarching system in place. Again, that would have to accompany other societal changes that create more social justice. Societies engaged in gift economies typically have less abberant and antisocial behavior, but also have ways to deal with them. Part of it is better conflict resolution systems in place to stem them off before they get out of hand. But there are also democratic decision making traditions, implementing punishments such as ostracism (it’s a pretty big threat when that means being cut off from your entire support network).

Let local populations decide what are democratic and fair ways to deal with crime. It’s not required to come up with a single alternative for every case in order to present a cogent criticism.

@throssog If I get some time, I’ll check out those names. Thanks.

Well, if we, Americans, are doing it, how can we ask others not too. I don’t believe in torture of prisoners. Let’s give them great living conditions, I’m half sarcastic, maybe they will change their mind about America, and not think us savages or immoral, or whatever the enemy at the time thinks.

I am only talking POW’s who are captured, and have not committed heinous crimes, but are just doing as their government/military instructs them.

@throssog, not sure what you’re saying there. I’ll elaborate on my comment anyway:

Torture is great for entertainment purposes. Stuff like not telling someone what you got them as a present until you get home. Or pretending to forget a birthday so you can surprise the person later.. uh.. some bdsm people have a lot of fun doing what they do sexually..

Torture is for entertainment beyond that it’s just evil.

Torture to get information from someone is, as far as I know, useless. The only situation where it can even be considered is the so called “ticking time bomb” scenario. I’m not aware of any studies on the comparative value of torture vs. other methods for getting information out extremely quickly.

I do, however, enjoy @ninjacolin-esque torture (as it shall forever more be known).

@filmfann Sounds delightful. Which country might it be that you were born in?

@incendiary_dan My friend I wish it were as simple as racism and social justice – truly I do. However, it seems that the behaviors we enumerate under ‘crimes’ have as many reasons for their occurance as there are people committing them. From acts that are mala prohibita, bad because we say they are, to those that are mala in se, bad in themselves. The rapist and murderers you cite as expendable are human ,too, and by a just and rational society must be seen as citizens with needs and dealt with from that standpoint. The prison explosion happened because we thought we could deal with crime by passing laws and awarding extreme punishments – deterring behaviors,- a Benthamesque response. It failed as they always do.
Have you knowledge of Gerard and his memesis concerns? There are many theorists and theories – but still we lock-up and waste our people for the silliest of reasons. The need for a scapegoat.
I look forward to your thoughts on the concepts we discussed.

I’m all for blowing the face off paedophiles, quick no nonsense kill.

@JLeslie as you are only being ‘half sarcastic’ I shall only be half serious in my response -:). In countries, such as Sweden, who concern themselves with prison conditions of those whom they continue to see as their fellow citizens and human beings, criminal justice is remarkably different from the USA’s. I would commend the works of Nils Christi to you for details and sources.POW’s and war criminals…how would you separate them? What differing treatment(s) would you impose upon say…Sgt. Shultz and Adolf Eichman? Both were doing as ordered. Yet, if we ask about Gen. Westmoreland and Lt. Calie – what then? I await your reply.

@ninjacolin Ah, I see, now. Your earlier response was not clear to me. You and I , and the law, would differ as to our definitions of torture – would we not? :)

@incendiary_dan so you don’t condone torture, but the execution of convicted criminals? What about appeal courts? Innocents being sentenced wrongfully? Your theory is only a short jog away from a police state.

@Schroedes13 I think it’s fair to read @incendiary_dan‘s comments as allowing for a level of certainty before execution. He never said that there shouldn’t be enough due process to be sure that the person is guilty – only that once we are sufficiently sure, they should be killed.

@roundsquare Torture is not used for gaining information , if trustworthy information is desired. It is used to break an individual and to encourage the rest to fear you and committing acts you don’t want committed. Its other uses are domination and the sick desire to inflict non-human status on others, as most famously in Iraq.
The “ticking time bomb” scenario is so much foolishness – if you have only a few minutes – a simple lie will defeat you. If you have hours – drugs are much more effective. Torture is without use and destroys those who use more surely than those it is used against.

@roundsquare but the thing is, we’d still need prisons to hold people during the appeal process! We wouldn’t let them go back under house arrest. So we could never really get rid of prisons.

@ucme How interesting. Let me see….child molesters, for the most part, are said to be adults who were molested themselves as children. So if we find them in their pain and suffering when they are children we would treat them and seek solace for them and help with their difficulties. However, if we find them as adults , whose problems have destroyed, warped and twisted them to the degree that they have themselves become molesters – we are to “blow their faces off” – how interesting…very interesting.

@throssog Are you sure about your claims? I know there are studies that show that other methods are much more useful but I don’t think any of them (or at least none I’m aware of) discuss what is more effective in a pinch. Indeed, if there are mere minutes a lie will stop you, but if torture can decrease the chance of a lie even by a tiny amount, I would think it would be worthwhile in a TTB scenario. (That, I realize, is a big if but my point is that I don’t think people know if it would decrease the chance of a lie or not).

@Schroedes13 True, but again, that’s not what he’s saying. He’s not suggesting having zero prisons. He is only suggesting that the system we have in place, which consists of 1) a huge overarching system and 2) long term imprisonment for relatively minor offenses is problematic.

@Schroedes13 It seems you have great faith in the appeals process, I do not. Wrongful convictions are all too common and the process of appeal is not about the ultimate fact (as it is known in the law) of guilt or innocence but about the procedure used , by the original court, to arrive at that fact. Just as, by the way, an appeal to the Supreme Court (stat or fed) is only about policy, i.e., “is it our policy to use that procedure to arrive at ultimate fact?”.
Police states are always arrived at by and with the best intentions. Further, always by degrees and from the “margins”.Please, don’t forget that Adolf Hitler was democratically elected.:)

@throssog That’s a very interesting viewpoint & interested as I am in pursuing an interesting debate on the matter, i’m afraid my opinion will not be changing. I’m off, other interests lie in wait.

@throssog Oh I know. One of my favourite classes in my undergrad was “Totalitarianism in the 20th Century”. While I don’t believe in the appeals process per se. I believe every individual should be given the right to it.

While I totally believe in bringing back the death penalty in Canada for some offenses, I think that there should be less amenities in prisons currently. I don’t believe prisoners should be able to take university classes or watch television or have access to the internet. They’re in prison. They have forfeited these rights.

@roundsquare Yes, I am very sure of my claims. With good reason to be so. Aside from my personal experiences with it there are the teachings of those whose job it is to instruct in its use(s). The instructors, in my day, were at “The School of the Americas” at Fort. Benning, Ga., and were quite good. It is from their instruction that I drew my comments on this matter , that combined wioth personal observation(s). I am very sure. Once you inflict pain – useless. The fear of inpain can have some, repeat, some use – but no certainty. With drugs and skill – absolute certaintiy if the person being interrogated has not been trained to be able to resist them ( by repeated intentional doses pre-capture).

@ucme But of course, I completely understand – completely.

@Schroedes13 Don’t believe in the appeals process? May I ask why?
As to prison conditions such as education, etc. What would you have them doing? Education is one of the few things that provably reduces the recidivism rate. Yet you would reject it out of hand? Hmm, interesting, as you state you have a university degree (at least). I become interested in“the what and why ” of your criminal justice philosophy. Do pardon me , but do enlighten me on your position.

@throssog You know, and have been instructed by, people who have experience in attempting to rapidly get information out of prisoners and have failed to do so via torture but have had some more success via other methods? Or you know people who have undergone torture? If I’m prying into details you don’t want to give, feel free to tell me to shut up.

I would have them doing manual labour. That is all. The only recreation they should have is possibly a book. That is it.

Yes I have a university degree. What does that have to do with anything? I’ve attained a university degree by hard work and commitment.

I believe that when you have committed an offense of which there is prison time, you should not have mostof the freedoms that the rest of society possesses.

@throssog Strike me down with all your sarcasm & your journey towards the dark side will be complete.
Gotta git!

@ucme Ah, I fear you are too late in your admonitions…My journey was completed long before such a concept as “the Dark Side” entered Lucas’ mind. :) By the way…sarcasm? I’ve not even tried to use sarcasm – just mild derision. :)

Anyone see the movie “Unthinkable?” I don’t like the idea of torture but in a case such as this or if someone who had knowledge of 9/11 was being interrogated prior to the day and their information could have prevented the deaths of innocents, would that change anyone’s opinion?

@rooeytoo That is, effectively, the TTB scenario though, if there were truly enough hours to figure things out, I would hold off on torture for sure (and only condone it if I think it works).

@rooeytoo If you are, for any reason, willing to torture anyone then it is only a question of finding a suitable justification to permit the torture of anyone.

I say if you think you can extract information from someone that will save lives of innocent civilians. Then by all means, go ahead!

@Schroedes13 I would expect nothing less of you, nothing.
“Well, Jack, did you get the terrorist to reveal the location of the (fill in the blank) device that will destroy Western Civilization if not discovered in 48 minutes?!?”
The argument you propose has been bankrupt for ages. All professional interrogators know this and laugh at the civilians who don’t. It may be that some of the School of the Americas materials have made it to the web – look and see. Torture isn’t about information it is about breaking people.

So then how are there still professional interrogators working if they never provide information after they’ve broken people?

@Schroedes13 The assumption civilians work under is that interrogators are after information of immediate use – wrong.
They are in search of : broken people to serve as examples to the indig. pop. when released.
They seek to create groups/individuals to serve as sources when they are released. These usually get to hear and see torture and are in constant fear of it but , usually succumb to their own fears and collaborate due to other “rewards”- see below.
Real Interrogation is done by converting through relieving the tension and offering identification/compassion/rewards/reunification with family/ protection programs. Ask any cop.
“It ain’t 24 in the real world”.

So you don’t think that any information which would aid a countries efforts has ever been gained through torture?

@ So rare as to be note worthy, imho.

You know, I’m just not going to bother with people who infer things nobody said anymore.

@incendiary_dan Dan, what do you mean? I fail to follow your train of conversation.

@throssog As to the questions you pose directly to me, I need to admit at this point that my history of war is not very good. I also admit on some of these matters there is some grey area. The Generals and right hand men of Hitler are criminals to be punished in my book, because they systematically killed civilians, their own citizens, who were just as committed and patriotic to Germany as any other citizen. They were not treasonous, or engaged in any civil war with their own government. The lower ranking soldiers followed their instructions, but there is an argument to be had that they could have protested and refused orders. We can argue the same about american wars of course also. I think in terms of punishment it is difficult to hold onto anger towards a soldier in a military force, bebcause there is too much there but the grace of God go I possible. Some armies just pick young teenagers of the stet and give them guns. It is almost impossible to fight back a war machine without significant planning, organization, and numbers, and so it is hard to hold an 18 year old SS soldier who was forced to join responsible for his actions to the point of punishing him later. But, sadistic methods used when not ok by the commanding officers, but because some power trip soldier likes to fuck with captured soldiers or civilians he happens to come accross should be in prison, just like he would be if he did it in a no war situation. Raping and pillaging is never acceptable period in my book.

If the American Generals you mentioned were attacking civilians with no care, allowing people to be blown up, robbed, or assaulted when they were not part of the war, but as some sort of psychological bullshit, then they should be punished as well, just like the Nazi’s.

Of course sometimes civilians are killed, wrong place wrong time, when getting a necessary target, that is completely different.

@JLeslie I cannot endorse the actions of those who harm others as a national policy. Afraid it doesn’t matter to me what their rank or reason. Having been involved with such, in the past, I cannot see a good reason for it. To defend ones own country…that can be reasonable. To attack another? No. To use preemptive strikes, against an enemy that might , in the future, attack? No.
Saw to much collateral damage as it is called today – no use for it. After all where can these folk (civilians) go? No.
George Bush, Chaney, Rumsfeld, et al, should, imho, be in custody and being educated as per Lycurgus. :)

@throssog I never endorsed it, I said I have empathy for the position of those soldiers. Some 15 year old kid taken off the streets in Korea to fight for the Northh Koreans, he is a baby, he knows little of the world, and his own possibilities. I don’t hold im responsible for following an order by some 45 year old grown up senior officer who is commanding him.

People can be incredibly ignorant, I would say almost brainwashed, and there lies the grey area. Some idiot 22 year old who likes the idea of blowing up all Iraqi’s because he is convinced they had something to do with 911, I honestly don’t know what I think. But, for sure all of our military leaders and President know the Iraqi’s did not orchestrate 911. I saw the words come out of Bush’s mouth once, so I know he knows at least that much. Some teenager raised in a community where supporting the troops is expected, and people who say one negative word are looked down on as unpatriotic; and if they had a very sheltered, or limited education, they may not use the brains God gave them to think through the big picture, but want to be perceived as good men by their families and other members of their Platoon. It is simply not black and white.

@JLeslie Quite understand. Never said or meant to imply that you had. Merely stated my own opinion – just as you did. Now, with that said: the grey areas you speak of are there only because we tolerate them. If we would not and were willing to pay the price for not, they could not be grey.

@throssog There is always some grey. Black and white thinkng is what gets us into war. Let’s not make the same mistake.

@JLeslie So, murder is wrong, is that black and white thinking…shades of grey? Hmmm. Seems that only certain types of thought require “shades of grey”. Those involving first principles might not. Of course the further down the path one goes the “greyer” the decisions become.

but there is a difference between murder and war!

@Schroedes13 I realize that hat is the accepted wisdom. However, I fear I must disagree. War is murder on a grand scale and conducted for the reasons and causes of those other than the combatants. War has a sanctification surrounding it that is respected predominately by those who have never engaged in it. There are a number of quotes , from those who have engaged in it , that would serve to illustrate my point, but I will only say: “War is hell” Wm. T. Sherman ( the introducer of total war to the modern world). Some time take a look at the full quote – gives deeper meaning.

So you don’t think that war is ever justified then?

@Schroedes13 Short answer: No. Long answer: Once one begins the process of seeking justification for murder ( under whatever name it may hide) one must accept that others (other human beings) will be turned into objects and thus will all of life become divorced from the sanctity of being and become objectified – a thing of/for use.

So even though you don’t condone the killing of innocents, you would do nothing physically to stop it?

@Schroedes13 Are there not “do-able things” other than to become that which I despise and would fight against?

There are. But the do-able things that I am thinking of would still cause others to fight. I just wonder what you would have done in 1939? How would you have stopped Hitler without force?

@Schroedes13 Firstly, by not waiting until 1939. To stop Hitler wasn’t the answer. Hitler was only a symptom and cats paw for other persons and forces who, if denied Hitler, would have utilized another in his place.
At that time the West feared the Bolshevik Revolution and raised up/endorsed a number of “Right wing/Fascist/Nationalist” leaders in various countries to “combat” it?
Hitler was much the “fair-haired-boy” among the major industrialist of the 1930’s. The German-American Bund was a social group much like the Boy Scouts. Marched in Parades and wore uniforms and took part in main stream life. “Those were the days”, eh? Hmmm. No, don’t wait for 1939 – too late. Hitler would have been the wrong focus anyway. Look to his backers and the sources of his power and money. Deal with them and he will wither and depart.

Are some sort of super humans being bred who can withstand any kind of physical punishment? If someone were standing there with a hatchet ready to chop off my fingers, I would tell them anything I knew, where the bombs were hidden, where to find the key to my piggy bank, whatever! And I have never thought of myself as a coward.

@rooeytoo Ah, many people have been tortured and refused – some to death – to reveal anything. Others give up at the threat of physical pain – even mere inconvenience, i.e., incarceration. All can be broken and will, eventually tell you…what you want to hear. Hmmm, but will it be the truth, or what you want to hear? Ask any cop/defense /prosecuting attorney.
Yes, you’ll get information – but its’ value? Hmmm?

@throssog you still haven’t said how you’d deal with them!

@Schroedes13 It is not possible to enumerate specific activities that would cover the number of sorts of actions needed to combat such insanity without taking pages of space and way too much time. However, may I suggest that a perusal of the works of Mr. Sharp on “Active Non-Violent Social Action” (Princeton Univ. Einstein web site) might prove instructive?
The Phillipines had a massive, popular, predominately non-violent revolution not too long ago using many of these techniques and maintaining the spirit of active non-violence.
By the way: Non-violence should never be confused, as is so often the case, with pacifism. Nothing at all alike.
Plough Shares 2000 is/was another group of active non-violent folk. Worth knowing about, imho.:)

See, I feel that active, non-violent social action can work and I am in no way against it. However, I do believe that sometimes one must resort to a physical method.

@Schroedes13 Wish I could disagree with you. Don’t know that I have “the courage of my convictions” :) Many things I believe in I do not know if I can live up to. Perhaps – I may , at least hope, eh? :)

@throssog Here’s hoping that neither of us ever have to cross that bridge!

@Schroedes13 Would that it could be so. I , however, have my doubts.

@throssog I think @Schroedes13 gave great answers. True, sometmes in retrospect we might be able to say if things were handled differently we could have avoided killing and war. But, when you are dealing with a lunatic, and people are following him, you cannot usually reason with a homocidal maniac. If your going to use Hitler as an example, there were two things going on under his regime. Seeking power over Europe, and killing Jews, Gypsies, Handicapped, homosexuals, and other people who he perceived as unworthy to live. The big geopolitical part there is time to fight about borders in a diplomatic way. Germany controls Poland, later he doesn’t, etc. But, the Jewish person who is dead in a mass grave, well, time is not on his side. When those soldiers came to round those people up, I wish they had a guns, and every other person in the town who wished their support their townsmen had shot every soldier. I would prefer they only be wounded, but some would wind up dead. The only people who could have peacefully made a difference once the holocaust was in motion would have been the soldiers themselves refusing to act on Hitlers orders as a collective group. Anyway, my only point is, in that situation you can not expect the Jewish person not to kill a soldier in self defense. Not many did, and some criticize the Jews for being rather passive. Result: Israeli army.

@JLeslie I join you in applauding @Schroedes13 for his thoughtful posts. As to the Hitler question: That is a question of much debate. Unfortunately I don’t care to go into it at this time on this thread. Perhaps at another time on another thread? We’ll see. In short: Hitler and his genocide was not a unique situation – Stalin makes him look a piker. Hitler: 11 million; Stalin: 25 – 100 million ( depending upon the estimate you accept. As the USSR did not lose the war and were poor record keepers, in this matter, we cannot be more precise.

@throssog My point with Hitler is the citizens themselves in the country had reason to kill Hitler. Forget commenting on whether the US or some other country should have started a war to stop the guy from his genocide.

@JLeslie Correct me if I’m wrong , but as I understand you you are advocating treason and political assassination, by citizens, of leaders they don’t wish to see in power in their country. Am I correct in this?

@throssog It does seem so. Although, I am thinking more in terms of killing the soldier before he kills me.

I would guess Hitler could have been voted out during the next vote. That is if the countrymen wanted him out and the vote is not corrupt. I don’t know the history. I know he was voted in when he first took office. Or, impeached.

I think I am a flight person. As in fight or flight. I would have done my best to leave the country.

@JLeslie Well, at least you are honest about the degree of your commitment to the asserted doctrines, eh? :) Few are. Always they state they would have been “on the barricades”.... My friend, Hitler was voted in, but could, thereafter, never be voted out. It is the way of such things.