What is your perception of a religious cult?

Thanks for asking this. For me, I use the word cult when the members are required to separate themselves from people outside of their faith, and the teachings of the religious cult are extremely contrary to what is widely accepted as a “normal” life in society. There is obviously a grey line in defining what religions are cults or not, I would say probably many mainstream religion taken to their extremes become cult like. I do not consider mainstream Mormons to be part of a cult.

I still don’t really understand what claiming to be Christian has to do with it. If the members accept Christ as their Saviour, they are Christian to me. There are all sorts of different sects of Christianity, they don’t all agree on which bible version to use, or how to practice Christianity. I guess since the Mormons have an additional book they are not considered Christians by Christians? Still, in my opinion, that does not necessarily make them a cult.

Just the use of the word signifies a negative connotation. So it could mean any group, big or small that you have a disapproving, critical or extremely negative view of, religious or not.

@JLeslie @mazingerz88 Both of you object to the negative connotation of the word “cult”. While I would note that the word has a very specific meaning that is not negative, that only seems to be understood among Christians.

I would like to use another word, at least here on Fluther, that does not have a negative connotation, so that we can discuss what defines a religious cult without starting off negative. Any suggestions for what that word might be?

Here is MerriamWebsters deifinition. It says nothing about claiming to be Christian.

You might find the Wikipedia interesting, it talks about the how Christians seem to use the word. I think this is another case where Christians possibly use the word differently than others. Like the argument over the word submissive meaning respect.

@plethora Oops, I just saw your answer, we posted at the same time. We are agreeing it seems.

@plethora The other word you want to use, are you saying you want a word that sums up religions claiming to be Christian, but aren’t?

Sect? And indeed the dictionary defines the word cult as mostly negative I think. I just based my response on that.

Yes, sect, I agree. I actually used it in my first answer. If @plethora indeed is looking for a word to describe various Christian faiths who he may or may not agree are Christian.

Here’s a checklist used by some who counsel cult members:

The group has a living leader whose authority is absolute.

The leader claims to have a special relationship with God.

Converts are young adults contacted during a crisis period of their life — first year of college, first year out of college, breakup with boyfriend or girlfriend, divorce, etc.

Converts are looking for love or security and feel the need to be totally committed to the group.

Once in, converts are required to give absolute allegiance to group.

The group separates itself from the outside world, either physically, by moving all members to a single, isolated location; or spiritually, by telling themselves they are different or better than others.

Members give a great deal of money to their leader, but don’t hold the leader accountable for how the money is spent.

@plethora Hinduism and Buddhism are RELIGIONS not cults.

There’s a lot of ways a cult can be described. @CaptainHarley said a lot of valid aspects of a cult. But even so a cult can be a good thing. When things don’t go well somewhere you can just join in somewhere where you can get your life on track or become more spiritual.
Depends though. Most cults are seen as bad things.

All religions start as cults. Early Christianity was definitely a cult. When the number of followers becomes sufficiently large, it is regarded as a religion. In recent history, Scientology and Mormonism started as cults, but have attained religion status.

It seems to be the degree of control over members that is the deciding factor. The more control, the greater the probability that an organization is a cult. Under this approach, Scientology would definitely be a cult. Mormanism probably would not be.

@Hibernate He said Buddhism and Hinduism are not cults, I think you misread.

@plethora
Out of curiosity, how are “Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses clearly cults”? I’d probably sort both into the “religion” bucket, so I guess it isn’t so clear to me.

@phaedryx Towards the middle-end of this Q @nullo also describes cults in the same way as @plethora. It seems there is a whole Christian definition that many of us are unaware of. Incredible lesson in communication and how we can be in a conversation thinking we understand each other, but defining words completely differently. As I get older I realize how often this happens.

A cult would be religious sect that keeps certain aspects of the religion secret from non-members. Also, a religious sect that believes its members will become gods in their own right, after their death.

@phaedryx I see Mormonism as a cult because they do not allow non-Mormons into their temples and because they believe when they die they’ll get their own planet to rule over as gods. Believeing that they themselves will become godlike is blasphemous, because in true Christian religion, there is only one God. That is why, according to the bible, that Lucifer was cast out of heaven, because he attempted to rule beside God and that was unacceptable. Any sect who believes they will ascend to their own throne is a cult, not a religion.

Westboro.

“Cult” to me, signifies an unhealthy alliance with a fraudulent leader/guru whom is invested in control rather than enlightenment.

Jim Jones and others come to mind such as the Heavens Gate group from some years ago.

I beleive people are free to worship whatever they desire but, when these practices become extremist and involve psychological control and ploys to manipulate free choice using fear or threat, a line has been crossed.

when these practices become extremist and involve psychological control and ploys to manipulate free choice using fear or threat, a line has been crossed.

Like the threat of burning in hell for all eternity?

@FutureMemory

Yep, but nothing new about the potential for all good works to be convoluted and manipulated to suit the needs of the controlling entity.

when there’s a clear batshit leader and people regurgitate what that leader says and dont’ think…hence catholicism is a cult, to me.

@FutureMemory That’s the thing. Almost any religion that asks for blind allegiance could be considered a cult by some definitions.

And snakes. Don’t forget about snakes during worship. Uhurm.

@JLeslie And rightly so.

Don’t all religions ask for “faith,” meaning accepting things without proof?

Isn’t that what “blind allegiance” is?

From my perspective, all religions look more alike than different. A an example, I’ll take Roman Catholics. Not because they are more cult-like than other religions but because more people know about some parts of their church doings.

1. They have a living leader to whom God speaks.
2. They have arcane secret practices which are kept from outsiders and the faithful. For centuries, only Bishops and Cardinals knew how a new Pope was elected. More recently, they kept secret over how they handled pedophiles among the clergy.
3. They collect bazillons of dollars from their faithful. The clergy have complete control over how it is spent.
4. They have mystic magic rites which the faithful are required to attend and drink blood.
5. They tell their members with whom and how they can have sex.
6. They force out (excommunicate) members who convey secret information to outsiders if it is damaging to the church.
7. They send people into destitute lands to convert desperate young people. They invite the young people to Catholic schools where they are isolated from their old lives.
8. One of the conversion tools is promising a better life on earth. The other is promising that they will live forever, in paradise in the afterlife – like gods.

The Catholic church may seem uncult-like because of their size and our familiarity with them. But if they were a small assembly, starting up, and with the same practices, I have no doubt they’ve be thought a cult.

@6rant6 The Catholic Church loses the cult label for me because they employ doctors and scientists to evaluate so called miracles. They do not require a specific amount of money to belong to the faith. They allow their followers to interact with the world at large. They encourage education. Sure there are some sects of Catholicism that are out there, but for the most part mainstream Catholicism is not extreme and works within normal society. Did you see the Bill Maher move Religiulous? The Catholics were the sanest ones of the lot.

@JLeslie The other word you want to use, are you saying you want a word that sums up religions claiming to be Christian, but aren’t? Yes, exactly. Just as you may want a word that sums up religions claiming to be Jewish, but aren’t. Messianic Jew, for instance, is Christian in belief, not Jewish in belief (In respect to Jesus). So the official Jewish religious system may say Messianic Jew is a cult. Correct me if Im wrong.

@JLeslie My point isn’t that Catholicism is worse than the rest. I agree with you that they appeared saner – more worldly perhaps – than other groups. But part of that is that they have been around along time and have adapted to the world.

I believe Catholics are expected to tithe, and the specific amounts are set locally.

Scientologists insist on education. Does that make them not a cult?

All large groups allow their members to interact with other people. That is a function of size, not dogma. Again, larger groups look less cult-like, but is size really a criterion you want to apply?

Try looking at the superficial elements of Catholicism – the level of knowledge you might have if they were a small group. The things that distinguish Catholicism from other groups will look cult-like. For purposes of classification, it’s not reasonable to say, “well, since we also know this nice thing about this group we’re not going to call them a cult.” Don’t you think every start up cult would assert that outsiders don’t know what they are really doing?

Please understand, I’m not trying to say, “Catholicism is a cult.” I am saying all religions follow enough of the core ideas that I would be concerned about their capturing someone close to me. Or a billion people I don’t know.

@plethora I don’t know enough about Messianic Jews to call them a cult, but I do not think of them as a Jewish sect either. I know many try to argue it is a Jewish sect, but I see it as a Christian sect. Messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus are viewed by many Jews as a Christian way to try and convert some Jews. I believe both groups prosthelytize? Correct me if I am wrong, trying to spread the word and convert is a Christian behavior not Jewish. They believe Jesus is the messiah, a Christian belief. In the end I am not bothered if Messianic Jews or Jews for Jesus feel they are a Jewish sect, I am not caught up in putting a label on someone’s beliefs or identity. If they feel Jewish, and want to identify with Jewish traditions and culture, but also believe Jesus is God, they have the right, I’ll respect their feelings on the matter. Chassidic Jews live very differently than me, but I accept them as Jewish, a sect in Judaism. Certainly they could be seen as cult like I think.

@6rant6 I do understand. :) I agree with many of your points. I actually am not hell bent on calling Scientology a cult. I don’t feel like they are much more “brainwashed” then many other religious groups.

@plethora Also, I believe Messianic Jews do not have the right of return in Israel, unless they indeed can prove Jewish ancestry. But, I think maybe practicing Jewish converts can be citizens of Israel even without Jewish blood so to speak. Not sure. We should ask zen. I am going to send this to him.

“And drink blood,” @6rant6?

Cults, the worst ones anyway, insist on you making the least amount contact with your family and friends, unless you can get them to join the cult too. Byu the time they are done with you, you are almost just a possession to the leader.

@bkcunningham I don’t want to debates the nuance of belief related to communion, but as a simplified outsider’s view of what’s taking place, it is the ingestion of the body and blood of Christ.

Obviously outsiders aren’t going to believe in the transubstantiation, of bread and wine into flesh and blood, but it is part of Catholic doctrine. It’s “weird beliefs” that characterize cults, not whether we agree with them.

@6rant6 But do people really believe it, or are they just following tradition (the transubstantiation)?

@Blackberry It doesn’t matter. We don’t define cult by what is actually going on but by what we see as outsiders. As I said before, we are particularly ill placed to judge what’s going on inside smaller groups and therefore must make our classification on spotty evidence – like what they say they do. That’s why I think we’re more likely to label small groups “cults.” We know just enough of what they are doing to be put off.

By the way, the idea of transubstantiation has been downplayed in the last 50 years. Before that, it was pretty much what the Pope said was happening. Does that mean they’re toning down their cultishness? Look at the Wikipedia link in the previous post. The Church’s insistence on the actuality of transubstantiation is pretty hardcore.

And in answer to your question, I believe that would be affirmative. Many of the truly devout believe in it.

@6rant6 In the Merriam Webster link I provided one of the definition included a small group, but was not limited to the group being small. I agree small groups are easily targeted as cults.

@JLeslie It almost seems that part of the definition is, “not us.”

Once again, I’m just saying religions look a lot alike to me – old, new, large, small, plaid skirts or not. And it seems unreasonable – again to me – to pillory some of them as “weird” or cultish.

I’ve always liked the Bonewits Cult Danger Evaluation Frame. It’s basically a somewhat subjective metric to figure out how controlling and exploitative a group is, since those are the two main characteristics that define cults.

I love the exception for tantric groups. So controlling your sex life is verbotten unless you’re really, REALLY good at it?

@6rant6 Me too, I am loath to call a group a cult, it has to be really extreme for me to go with that label. As you see I tend to argue why a specific religion is not a cult.

[mod says] This is our Question of the Day!

To me, all religions are to some extent a cult (which, I don’t mean derogatorily, but using the MW dictionary definition). And all religions have a couple weird (to me) practices that seem totally bizarre and people don’t really question. And I think most people have this experience. While which practice it is in each religion will most certainly change from person to person, it does seem really common to be like “and the followers of x religion do this, so…???”. Also, I am really a fan of Non Sequitur definition of a cult.

@Blackberry Catholics actually believe the wine and bread literally turn into the blood and flesh of Christ. Or, at least, this is a basic tenant of Catholic beliefs, and once upon a time, Catholics believed it. But, it was also a huge issue in the Protestant Reformation – Protestants saying that, no, it doesn’t literally turn into Christ’s blood and flesh, it is merely symbolic. And it would appear that Protestant views on transubstantiation has seeped into the Catholic laity’s views – there was a poll done where a shocking amount (like, 40 percent or something) of Catholics thought that the wine and blood was merely symbolic, not literal. Course, this isn’t the official Church’s position, but it is always interesting to see the difference between what the “common member” of a group believes vs what the actual party line is. But, at least once upon a time, Catholics believed that in the Eucharistic ritual the priest would literally turn the wine into blood and bread into flesh, and the priest would raise the chalice above his head and say “Hoc est Corpus Meum” (which means “This is my Body”, and if you say it out loud you’ll see where we get the phrase “hocus pocus”) and would have preformed divine magic.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir See, I actually see tons and tons of discussion and debate within the Catholic Church (especially historically). I realize it’s not the common view, but Catholics are usually the ones who are the least cult-like of Christians to me. Especially when considering the Christian Right.

Most religions seem like cults to me. Any group talking about regular donations, has rules on how to live your life, any kind of regularly practiced ritual, and worships a mythical deity with (no offense) nothing but faith as evidence, with or without a tangible form, comes off as a cult to me.
Group interaction is fine, just do things that you enjoy together, such as a book club. Or have movie nights with friends and family. We have enough stress these days, don’t pile cults on top of it.

@JLeslie The other word you want to use, are you saying you want a word that sums up religions claiming to be Christian, but aren’t? Yes, exactly!!

That’s at one extreme,and This is at the other @flo Cults, the worst ones anyway, insist on you making the least amount contact with your family and friends, unless you can get them to join the cult too. Byu the time they are done with you, you are almost just a possession to the leader.

Mormons, for instance, exhibit no strange behavior (They are usually good citizens, very moral, and diligent in practicing their faith). And yet, I as a Christian, would label them a cult based on stated belief, not on any behavior issues whatsoever.

Like many words, there is more than one word describing “CULT”.

As for “sect”, let’s pick on the Baptists. Based on stated belief, every Baptist group I know is Christian, based on stated belief. However, there are so many differences in less than major beliefs, that many Baptist groups can be distinguished from other Baptist groups, based on behavior, dress codes, for instance, number of times a week they are expected to attend church, etc, etc, etc. These seem to me to be distinguished as different sects, not cults, since major deal breaking beliefs are not shredded.

The same might be said for Presbyterians.

The reason for raising the question is that to flutherites, the only term that comes to most minds (among those who enter the discussion) is the cult definition voiced by @flo.

@plethora Mormons…And yet, I as a Christian, would label them a cult based on stated belief, not on any behavior issues whatsoever. Interesting. So, which of their stated beliefs do you think qualify them for cult status – and in what way?

Same for Baptists – what stated beliefs make them included in Christian and instead of excluded?

Also: What’s your definition of Christian?

Disclaimer: My question is not rhetorical or commentary: I’m genuinely intrigued by these comments and want to know more.

I don’t see what Christianity (or lack thereof, or deviation from) has to do with cults, unless you count that Christianity was probably viewed as a cult at its beginning. I definitely don’t think of Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses as cults. Scientology would be much closer, in my mind. To me, cults are exclusionary, secretive, and controlling.

@JLeslie yeah I may have misread it still when he used cults that often in that phrase, well you get the idea ^^

@Hibernate Yes, that was easy to misread. Sorry

@augustlan To me, cults are exclusionary, secretive, and controlling. I think that is a perfect concise definition of the popular perception of a cult.

I am trying to think of a word to use for the other end of the spectrum where this definition does not apply, but the belief system departs from the Christian belief system to such an extent that “cult” is still applicable. This thread is helping me see this.

@plethora Christian extremists?

@augustlan On that Wikipedia link I have above it says this “In the 1940s, the long held opposition by some established Christian denominations to non-Christian religions or/and supposedly heretical Christian sects crystallized into a more organized “Christian countercult movement” in the United States. For those belonging to the movement, all new religious groups deemed outside of Christian orthodoxy were considered “cults”. So, I guess that means even Christian groups that are not considered mainstream Christian? This is all new to me too, this definition.

@Aethelflaed Good question. See The Kingdom of The Cults Just scroll down and pick the one’s you wonder about.

@JLeslie Christian extremists?
new religious groups deemed outside of Christian orthodoxy were considered “cults”.

OK, I’m gonna stop using the word “cult” for this end of the spectrum. Perhaps I should use “non-orthodox” since it relates exclusively to the Christian belief system.

@augustlan To me, cults are exclusionary, secretive, and controlling. See, the problem is that pretty much all religions are exclusionary (you have to obey their rules, and of course, the “oh, but they’re aren’t a “real” Christian/Hindu/Muslim/Jew/etc”. They’re all also controlling – you can’t do this, you can’t do that, we might burn you at the stake if you do…

@Aethelflaed This, I believe, is taking it to the point of the ridiculous. All human groups are exclusionary. It’s one of the ways we define who we are. The military is exclusionary. The medical profession is exclusionary. You cannot be a Jew and a Muslim and a Hindu and an Atheist and a Christian all at the same time. There are deep beliefs that define each one.

@augustlan I believe, was referring to extreme weird exclusion.

@plethora I’m not saying that all religions are cults, or that being exclusionary is bad, I’m saying that defining them just as “exclusionary” is too vague to be a useful definition.

@Aethelflaed Whatever…then put some modifiers on it. I’m just fine with it.

To my sense, it’s a cult whenever one is asked to substitute the judgement of another for one’s own judgement. This is more insidious than coersion or deceit; coersion forces one to go against one’s judgement, and deceit exploits flaws in one’s judgement, but the cult requires that one disown one’s own sense of what is right and true and adopt instead someone else’s version. Whenever one’s own judgement conflicts with the official version, then one is to discount whatever misgivings one might have as being necessarily untrustworthy.

So you actually asked a few different questions.

Perception of a religious cult? In a word – dangerous. Not necessarily in a stabby kind of way but more in a “I find it concerning when people begin to tie seemingly undue value and reverence to things/ideas/beliefs” kind of way. Particularly when it reaches a point of where they begin putting “it” above other things of logically equal or greater value with reasoning akin to “because that’s the way it is”. But that’s just my personal bias.

How would I identify a religious cult? A group within a religion who separates itself by identifying only with certain aspects (or by raising in importance only specific components) of the encompassing religion.

What’s my definition of a cult? Those who venerate specific things/ideas well above the point of “average”, to where it interferes with other necessary or desired activities/relationships, and maintain that veneration over time. I know, that’s not particularly well “defined” but it’s a guideline I’m comfortable with.

Just my two cents, I don’t believe cults are by any means restricted to religion.