Social Question

eatrep's avatar

Were The OWS Robberies A Good Model of Efficiency For The Redistribution of Wealth/Assets Without Government Intervention?

Asked by eatrep (45points) October 19th, 2011

“Occupy Wall Street protesters said yesterday that packs of brazen crooks within their ranks have been robbing their fellow demonstrators blind, making off with pricey cameras, phones and laptops—and even a hefty bundle of donated cash and food.“__“Stealing is our biggest problem at the moment,” said Nan Terrie, 18, a kitchen and legal-team volunteer from Fort Lauderdale.Source

The problem with this article is that it claims thievery, but this isn’t theft. It’s redistribution of wealth/assets. It’s just being done without government intervention. In my mind this is the model of efficiency. I don’t see what all the fuss is about.

The OWS are protesting for the exact same process, except that they want it applied to the rich only, and want it done through government intervention.

Your thoughts?

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80 Answers

Qingu's avatar

I truly marvel at your cleverness in equating taxation via a democratically elected government with petty theft. Do you have some sort of newsletter to which I can subscribe?

Blackberry's avatar

Don’t be ridiculous.

SpatzieLover's avatar

Welcome to Fluther!
my thoughts? you are not new

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SavoirFaire's avatar

What the OWS protesters are against is taking advantage of others. Thievery is taking advantage, so is refusing to meet your contractual obligations to pay retirement packages so that you can give yourself a raise. Taxation, however, is just the price of admission to the social contract: the tool by which we improve everyone’s life by taking ourselves out of a situation in which taking advantage is the only option for survival.

Jaxk's avatar

It’s interesting that all these poor and oppressed people have all these expensive gadgets to steal. They are against capitalism yet use the fruits of it created by capitalists. And it is amazing that all these people that want want Free Stuff, would have people in thier midst that WANT FREE STUFF.

Qingu's avatar

@Jaxk, it would be interesting if it were true.

Do you have any statistics to back up that assertion?

Also: I’m not poor or oppressed by a long shot. I imagine many OWS protestors are just as well off as I am. My personal economic situation is not what motivates me to support the cause.

eatrep's avatar

A breach of contract is subject for a lawsuit. You don’t need to sit outside and protest. Take it to court, provide the evidence where the contract was breached, and receive your compensation.

However, there is a flip side. They didn’t bother to read what the contract stated and were unimpressed with the results. In this case, no one was taken advantaged of. In either case, the protest is unjustified.

Taxation is a price to pay, yes, but equally.

As long as we democratically agree to use government intervention to steal from the rich, it is suddenly justified, and petty if done any other way?

So by that logic, if I gather enough of the majority vote, I can vote in 0% taxes on the rich, and only tax the middle class and poor?

Qingu's avatar

@eatrep, yes, you can. Isn’t democracy wonderful? Good luck trying to gather those votes.

eatrep's avatar

I see, so a basic level of morality isn’t important, just the votes.

Jaxk's avatar

@SavoirFaire

I would be interested to see this ‘Social Contract’. Is there anything I could pull up so that I’d know what you’re referencing.

Qingu's avatar

@eatrep you said “can,” not “should.”

Response moderated (Unhelpful)
eatrep's avatar

Stealing is stealing (voting it democratically or not).
Excuse me, I mean “Redistribution of wealth”.

tedd's avatar

Ok, you want to know what the OWS crowd is angry about? How about this.

In the past 10 years the US GDP has gone up by 16%. Wonderful, great news. Along with that our average CEO pay has gone up by 300%... ok, wow, seems a bit much, but hey maybe they really earned it. As long as everyone is getting to see that extra wealth whats the problem right?

Except the average worker pay in the US has gone down by about 4%... and that doesn’t take into account inflation.

You want to live in some tax free state, move to Somalia or the Congo. Otherwise, get a book on modern society, and realize that what you’re advocating for is Feudalism, serfdom, and a caste society.

tedd's avatar

@eatrep Ok, how about when the rich stole from the poor? The bailout of 2008, they used hundreds of billions of tax payer dollars to save these banks. The first finger of blame goes to the politicians who decided it was a good idea to save these banks. Now granted, it probably saved the economic crisis from being worse, but it’s just given these banks a blank check to do whatever they feel. If they screw up, oh well, “I’m too big to fail.”

But who begged and pleaded with the government, told them you have to save the banks or the economy will collapse, society will crumble, up is down, black is white, dogs and cats uniting in the streets!!! ..... Oh well that would be the Fed.

Now who’s in charge of the Fed. Who fills their various committees, councils, and positions?

Wait, could that be those same wealthy americans in the top 0.01% of income earners?

Funny you’re not attacking them for stealing from the poor.

While we’re on the matter, why don’t you attack them for not even paying the same amount of taxes as the poor? The wealthiest 1% of the nation get most of their money from stocks (or capital gains), not regular “salary.” While the highest paid salary tax bracket is in the 30% range, the highest capital gains income tax rate was set to 15% back in 2003. 15%…. just curious, what tax rate do you pay… mine is a lot higher than 15%.

Qingu's avatar

Duh, it’s not stealing when you manipulate the market you control to redistribute wealth from poor people to wealthy people.

It’s only stealing when you vote democratically to raise taxes to pay for things like roads and the military.

eatrep's avatar

I never advocated for anarchy, so your Somalia and Congo example is pointless. If you want to know what type of government I would like to see implemented, well then I’ll quote you a wise man who said “...a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” – Thomas Jefferson.

So what that quote means is that the government’s role is to protect people from killing each other and not let them infringe upon each other’s property and freedom. That is the only thing that should be taxed on the people. The rest is handled by the free market. What does that mean? A free market means that consenting adults voluntarily come together and negotiate the price on the products they wish to buy/sell. When something is done voluntary, there is no taking advantage of. However, if the contracts are breached, well that is exactly what the court system is for. If property rights are breached, see court system.

I don’t see how Corporations are responsible for the decrease in average worker’s pay or inflation. These issues are the cause of government intervention, particularly fractional reserve banking which tampers with the markets interest rates. In other words, look up the definition of unintended consequences to all government interventions of the free market and you’ll understand why the people suffer. Whenever a government fixes a problem it causes 10 more problems, and what I mean by fixing a problem, I mean it makes everyone suffer equally.

Your next statement is about bailouts. I fully agree with you that the bailouts were wrong. In a free market a business is responsible for its poor choices and it pays the price. These banks should have been allowed to fail. But who bailed them out twice? Democrats. They controlled congress and the house under bush. They also infringed upon property rights, another illegal act. It’s a blatant lie to state that if the banks were to fail, it would be chaos.

What OWS and you seem to not understand that is to stop corruption you limit the governments power over the market and then the market can no longer use the governments power. Giving more government power over markets is only giving more power to markets. See regulatory capture. Also, as I pointed out above, regulations are pointless since all transactions occur voluntarily between two consenting adults. Just take it to the courts if contracts and property rights were breached.

I have no problem with everyone paying a fair share in taxes, but only if those taxes go to the type of government system I pointed out above.

But that’s not what OWS and democrats are about. They want to infringe upon property rights and personal freedoms instead of coming together and negotiate trades. Aka, they want to tell rich people how to conduct business (private property), they want the the rich to pay more, hence this is redistribution of wealth, aka, stealing.

tedd's avatar

@eatrep Your ignorance is astounding. But if you want to pull out the Founding Fathers… why don’t we look at the fact that over half of them (including George Washington, John Adams, and Alexander Hamilton) were Federalists who advocated that Federal control should supersede the states at all ends, and started organizations such as the National Bank (which was the largest bank in the country until it’s repeal under Jackson)... a Federally operated and regulated bank.

You have government intervention because a pure free market is doomed to failure (see the Great Depression for an example). Pure capitalism is a game of Monopoly, eventually someone wins, and when that happens everyone else loses.

Corporations are responsible for the decrease in workers pay because they directly control that pay. They saw their profits go up, and rather than reward their workers, they lowered their wages. How on earth are you blaming that on the government????

You have this pure hatred of government, and are blaming it for all of our problems… Did it ever occur to you that government can actually be a good thing?

We’re both advocating for the same thing… for one all powerful group to have more control. The only difference is you want Big Business to have it, and I want the government to have it… since you know, we elected them. You act like you’re living under the rule of some alien government.

tedd's avatar

@eatrep Who bailed the banks out twice?

Uhh that was under Bush, and was openly advocated for by the entire Republican party.

I’m done responding to you, your ignorance terrifies me and all you’re doing is raising my blood pressure while blatantly ignoring sensible facts being presented to you.

eatrep's avatar

I’m not pulling out the founding fathers as a means of supporting my argument. I said I personally agree with Thomas Jefferson’s thoughts on what the government’s role should be. I’m not here to convince you. Believe what you want to believe, but don’t expect me to support it or not fight against it.

The great depression was caused by the fractional reserve banking which tampered with the interest rate which put a credit freeze. So government intervention caused the depression, not the free market.

There are always winners and losers in every system, when a government tries to fix this problem and make everyone a winner, it means everyone will be equally poor. We all get to eat the same meals, which means we all get to eat rats for dinner equally.

If you don’t like the pay don’t work for the Corporation. If you don’t like the product don’t buy it. Create your own Corporation, create your own product. You don’t like oil, then go start a new alternative energy market. No one is stopping or forcing you to do anything in this country. But you sure as hell have a million demands and want to tell others what to do.

How am I blaming Governments for Corporations business policies? I told you, look up unintended consequences of government interventions, and look up all the regulatory captures.

In a free market, Corporations and the employees decided on what the price should be for the job. The employee agrees to the salary or not. If the Corporation make the salary too low, they will not get the workers, or another Corporation will come along and acquire that piece of the market by setting the appropriate price via negotiation.

Prices have to proper all over, or it can’t work. Corporations have to give the employee enough money to be able to support themselves & continue to purchase products. So if the employee only pays $7 an hour, you can’t charge $100 for cigars, because no one will be able to buy it. So as I said, prices are negotiated until everyone is comfortable with the price. This is done voluntarily, not through force. If someone wants to work for $7, its because they’re comfortable with the price.

Under Bush, the democrats controlled congress and the senate. They were the one’s who passed the bailout bills. Then under the Obama administrations, the democrats approved of the $700 billion bailout bill.

I’m not advocating for big business, I’m advocating for voluntary transactions, respect for property rights, contracts, and freedom. You’re advocating for tyranny.

Qingu's avatar

You live in a fictional alternate universe where “voluntary transactions” cannot be and have not been abused and exploited by powerful market players. Even Adam Smith said the government needs to regulate the credit market and supported progressive taxation.

“You don’t like oil, then go start a new alternative energy market.”

Out of all the ignorant things you’ve said, I think this one most fully demonstrates your ignorance of how markets actually work, specifically what barriers to entry are. One of many concepts that shatter your conception of a perfectly mobile, informed, and liquid economy of rational actors. If you’d like to have an actual discussion about economics I suggest you develop your understanding of the discipline beyond that which is taught in middle school (or from Ron Paul websites).

eatrep's avatar

Didn’t you see where I wrote if a contract is violated, then file a lawsuit? That is exactly what court systems are for.

Your second part has no intellectual substance, so there is nothing I can respond to.

Qingu's avatar

@eatrep, so in your universe there are no contracts that involve power or information imbalances? Are you familiar with Pullman towns or predatory lending contracts? (You know, like the ones that caused the financial crisis)

And the concept of barriers to entry has “no intellectual substance”? May I ask how old you are, sir?

eatrep's avatar

Again, if someone doesn’t read the fine print of this “predatory lending contracts”, then it’s their fault. Next time they will learn to read before signing, or if you’re unable to read it, then don’t sign it. Get a professional who can read it. Research a product before purchasing it. If you don’t have enough information about it, then don’t purchase it.

You can easily spot fraud just by reading the fine print. You can catch on to any misleading information. Learn everything about the product and they can’t withhold/mislead information from you, simple.

On the other hand, if they signed it, and the Corporation violated something within the Contract, then file a lawsuit.

I told you, all types of fraud, lying, etc.. is handling in a court room.

The only barriers of entry that occur are from government interventions that actually protect monopolies, not to mention the amount of extensive regulations.

Sounds like a lot of excuses is what it is. Even with all the monopolies and regulations, people still manage to become millionaires from the ground up.

Qingu's avatar

And if you can’t afford a professional? If you don’t have time to research a product? If you are unable to grasp the technical language of the contract but still need the loan? This is called information asymmetry, by the way. And no, many people cannot easily spot fraud just by reading the fine print. Much “fine print” is written specifically to hide fraudulent, misleading or risky elements of such transactions, that’s the whole point.

I don’t even know where to start with your claim that barriers to entry only occur from government intervention and regulation. Again: how old are you? You really don’t seem to know much of anything and I’m having trouble deciding how to approach this discussion.

eatrep's avatar

If you can’t afford a professional then go work until you can afford one. If you can’t grasp the technical language of the contract then go study the technical language of the contract.

What you don’t do is sign something without understanding what you singed. That’s called irresponsibility.

How much do you think professional costs to read a contract for you? It’s about $100. That’s a very small price to pay for the amount of headaches it saves you.

So far all I hear from you is excuses and what seem to be personal attacks.

Anyway, I have to go and I won’t be back until after the weekend. Bye.

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SavoirFaire's avatar

@eatrep The problem is that these particular breaches of contract have been barred from the courtrooms. Is that fair? If not, you agree with part of the OWS protest. I am personally related to people whose pensions were not honored. Their contracts provided their former employers no such recourse, but it happened anyway. When litigation was attempted, it was blocked. This is not a protest against capitalism—not for everyone, at least. Some are protesting against the collusion between government and certain corporations that has in fact undermined the practice of free market capitalism.

The free market, after all, is supposed to consist of both sellers and buyers. The focus on only one side of the equation that we see so often—on the right and on the left—erodes the best market regulation there is: an informed public of consumers. As a libertarian, I find the knee-jerk critiques coming from the right wing to be unreflective and hypocritical. No matter how much one might disagree with certain individuals protesting, the overall point is one that should be embraced by anyone who prefers capitalism over mercantilism.

As for taxation, your view is simplistic. “Equal taxation” is not an easy concept to cash out: equal amounts, equal percentages, or equal cost/benefit ratio? Or perhaps something else? Simply saying “equal taxation” is empty rhetoric. Nor is taxation stealing. The rich have what they have only in part due to their own efforts. The number of public resources essential to their success should not be forgotten. Thus we can safely ignore the string of non sequiturs closing your response.

CaptainHarley's avatar

@tedd .. in case you’ve yet to notice, we’re ALL living under an “alien government,” and if you think that “the people” control the government, you’re living in your own little universe.

bkcunningham's avatar

Give a real life example, @Qingu. It might make your point easier to understand.

ETpro's avatar

More Tea Party effort at discrediting the people who are honestly upset about redistribution of wealth.

you want to talk about redistribution. In inflation adjusted, after tax terms, the 99% have seen their income barely budge over the past 30 years since the Reagan Revolution. The top 1% have seen their income skyrocket by 300%. That’s your redistribution of wealth. And still the conservatives’ handlers don’t think it’s enough. They keep pressing you to push for even more.

The top 1% now control 42% of the financial wealth in the USA. The wealthiest 400 tax filers have more financial wealth than the bottom 50% of America. Wealth inequity only hit this level once in US history, and that was “in 1929“http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/112736/20110215/grapes-of-wrath-chronicle-of-the-great-depression-how-we-repeat-history-in-2011.htm. And still the conservatives’ handlers don’t think it’s enough. They keep pressing you to push for even more. Small wonder. They are the billionaires and mega corpotations benefiting most from the transfer.

When will the billionaires finally have enough? When they have it all. Is shipping it to them synonymous with patriotism? I certainly don’t think so. I;m delighted to see that Americans are waking up to the rape and pillage and class warfare being carried out against the 99%, and they’ve had enough.

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Buttonstc's avatar

Gee, isn’t it comforting to know that someone has arrived at Fluther who has ALL the answers ~

Eatrep, our own little Oracle of Delphi. How proud we are ~

Qingu's avatar

@bkcunningham and example of predatory lending?

http://www.mortgage101.com/article/5-examples-predatory-lending
http://www.nchfa.com/homebuyers/hbpredatory.aspx

Just for mortgages, although that’s the big one re: today’s economy. Because banks thrust a lot of these crappy mortgage contracts onto consumers, and when a lot of consumers ended up unable to pay, that’s basically what caused the financial crisis. You can say that consumers should have been smarter, and you’d be right. But most people aren’t smart. And these contracts were ginned up to take advantage of people’s ignorance. And banks who wrote the contracts did so deliberately, ignoring the systemic risk they posed to the economy as a whole.

Free market at work.

Jaxk's avatar

@Qingu

I know you want to blame everyone but the consumer, it just isn’t the case. Most of those subprime loans were given with little or no down payment. The payments were so low that rent would have been higher. When the housing bubble burst, these guys didn’t lose anything. They had nothing invested and in fact had cheap rent for the past three years. Now we want to bail them out but what it really does is give them a gift. What portion of these is predatory lending isn’t clear. I’m sure there was some but it wasn’t from the banks. It was the mortgage brokers. Your ire is misplaced.

The systemic risk you point to was not known. Predictions of the housing collapse were running for more than 15 years. Those few that predicted the timing just got lucky. The mortgage risk was rated AAA by the ratings institutes such as Moody and everyone thought they were solid. Hindsight is great, and useful if you simply want to blame someone or something but not very realistic.

The last point is in the complexity. Why do you suppose closing is so complex? hell, it takes several hours (at least in California) to sign all the closing documents. Most of this is dictated by REGULATION. Everything under the sun must be disclosed (eg. did anyone ever die in the house, has there ever been an oil spill within 15 miles, etc.). By the time you finish with those documents, few would ever be able to retain what they’ve signed. All dictated by government REGULATION. I’m sure each of these regulations was created with the best of intentions but the result is a system so complex that the average buyer will glaze over before they ever get close to the end. Now we want to add even more regulation and complexity. You won’t solve the problem that way.

At some point we need to start taking responsibility for our own actions. If you fall off a cliff you want to blame someone for not putting up a barrier to protect you. If you climb the barrier to get a better view, it’s still not your fault, the barrier should have been higher/stronger/less penetrable. The blame game has been popularized by Obama but is there nothing that we take responsibility for anymore?

Qingu's avatar

@Jaxk, as usual, I don’t know where to start.

Yes, subprime loans often had low initial payments (i.e. many were adjustable rate). That’s the point! That’s part of what makes them predatory. You lure consumers in by promising low rates at first, while locking them into a contract with high rates later. The number of such mortgages skyrocketed during the aughts as well.

I’m not sure why you are even saying “they had nothing invested and had cheap rent for the past three years.” Uh, you know the difference between a rent and a mortgage, yes? Just because they had cheap initial payments doesn’t mean everything is just fine and dandy for these people; they’re still stuck with massive mortgage debt with plunging housing prices making it impossible to get out from underwater (add unemployment from the recession and the situation gets worse).

Now, were the bankers pushing these loans, or was it the mortgage brokers? I don’t actually know how to mete out blame as far as consumer marketing, but obviously the banks who were lending these loans had to know the risks; obviously the banks who knowingly packaged such toxic loans as part of credit default swaps to evade regulations on risk management knew what they were doing as well. Even if banks were not directly culpable for marketing toxic loans to consumers, they were certainly culpable for irresponsibly packaging and leveraging those loans.

I have no idea why you brought up complexity; intentionally misleading fine print is not necessarily the same as complex fine print, nor is it caused by regulation. I know telling you this won’t make you change your behavior, Jaxk, but “regulation” is not something you can say reflexively as a cause for any given problem. (In fact Dodd-Frank and Obamacare regs actually decrease complexity on the consumer contract level in a number of ways).

Finally, I agree with you: personal responsibility is important. We all should take responsibility for our actions. There is a moral hazard problem in padding the consequences of irresponsible behavior. At the same time—many people are irresponsible. That’s just a fact. Many people are irrational. Many people are easily swayed by savvy marketers, or frauds. Many people are just stupid and don’t understand things like mortgage contracts. And here is the central difference between conservative and liberal economics: conservative economics functions on the presumption that everyone is perfectly rational and responsible, and liberal economics presumes that many people are not. When constructing macroeconomic policies and system-wide regulations, I prefer to base my economics on reality, rather than a moral ideal that does not and never will exist.

Qingu's avatar

More on personal responsibility:

Who do you think deserves to suffer worse consequences:

• A snake oil salesman who knows what he is selling doesn’t work and in fact can cause great harm but sells it to lots of people anyway, or

• An idiot who buys what the snake oil salesman is selling

?

HungryGuy's avatar

@Qingu – With all due respect, your question is biased. Remove “idiot” and replace it with “individual who trusts the salesman to be honest about what he’s selling” and I’d place the blame squarely on the salesman. Not the buyer who was lied to.

Again, this is an example why people are pissed at businesses. Years ago, I bought a Verizon cell phone and the Verizon salesman quoted me a monthly flat rate for a 2 year contract with certain features. Lo and behold. The rate was twice what the salesman told me, and I was charged extra for using the features. Because of the contract, I had to contact the Federal Trade Commission and a few other agencies to break the fraudulent contract (thankfully, the evil regulating government was there to help me get justice from the innocent benevolent misunderstood mega-corporation).

Qingu's avatar

@HungryGuy, “idiot” was intentional. I’m not interested in what he thinks about an obvious case of fraud where an honest and intelligent person was taken advantage of.

Jaxk is arguing that consumers are culpable because they acted irresponsibly… well, I want to know who he thinks is more culpable: the irresponsible consumer who should have known better, or the irresponsible salesman who intentionally took advantage of that consumer.

Edit: just to be clear, I have no doubt that many victims of subprime mortgages are just that, victims, much like your story with Verizon. But Jaxk was talking about the people who weren’t clearly victims and allegedly should have known better.

Jaxk's avatar

@Qingu

If someone is selling a product that claims to do something it clearly won’t do, that is false advertising and I have no problem placing the blame on the sales person. I had a friend that received a letter telling him that he had won a sailboat with a picture of the boat. It appeared to be a 2–3 hundred thousand dollar boat and all he had to do was pay the shipping to get it, $750. He searched and searched for the hook. finally calling the post office to see where the fraud might be. It turned out that the picture was of a model. A few bucks in any hobby store. I have no problem calling that fraud even though the post office could not press charges because they didn’t make any claim that was false. That’s not what happened in these sub prime loans. All the detail is laid out in the loan. How much the loan costs and how much you’re borrowing. With the adjustable loans (all subprime loans were adjustable) they can’t tell you what the interest rate will be when it adjusts. Because they don’t know. If they tell you it will go down and it doesn’t you can sue. If they tell you it will go up and it doesn’t they also take on a liability. But they tell you it will adjust. If you think it won’t adjust, your simply not listening.

One more quick story. I had a loan with a balloon payment. I paid interest only and at the end had to pay the full loan amount. Nobody tricked me, I knew exactly what I was getting. It wasn’t predatory lending but it was the only way I would get the house I wanted. I saved my pennies so that when the balloon can due, I was able to pay it off. I suppose I could have said they tricked me and I shouldn’t have to pay but I don’t operate that way.

For the average American, a home purchase is the largest investment they’ll ever make. It is foolish to go into that without some comparative shopping. I’m sure that some got taken in without understanding the consequences but the vast majority simply didn’t expect the market crash nor did the banks.

I won’t even get into the highly controversial subject of the Community Reinvestment Act, which played a major role in all this.

Qingu's avatar

@Jaxk, you are clearly more responsible than most people. If you weren’t you wouldn’t be able to operate your business effectively.

It’s very easy for successful people like us to expect all of our fellow citizens to behave as intelligently and responsibly as we have… it costs nothing for us to make these pronouncements, and it makes a convenient moral wallpaper for certain policies. But many people are fools. That’s just a fact of reality. And whether you want to call taking advantage of fools “fraud” on the level of the fake boat or not is immaterial to the point. Banks knowingly made loans to people—some of whom might well have been fools—who could not afford it, repackaged the risk, leveraged it, exacerbated the bubble, and sowed the seeds for systemic risk that led to this crisis.

And I’m not really sure where you think the more than 200% increase in subprime loans came from during the 2000’s. It wasn’t the fool consumers who were clammoring for them. It was the banks (and I guess mortgage brokers) who were offering more of them after realizing they could repackage them and make massive if ultimately fleeting profits.

Jaxk's avatar

@Qingu

Actually it was the “the fool consumers who were clammoring for them”. Real estate had been rising for more than 15 years and people were making a fortune from it. If you could afford a second house, it would make you money fast and the easiest way to do that was with a sub prime mortgage. If you wanted a bigger house, the upgrade was easy with the help of a subprime mortgage. With the housing market rising like it was the downside risk seemed minimal. I had several friends that got out of the electronics industry to become real estate agents. Not because they were good salesmen but because there was no shortage of customers. I know it’s convenient to believe that the brokers, real estate agents, and banks were knowingly pushing bad products but the truth is they were responding to incredible demand. If you weren’t into real estate, you were missing the biggest money making opportunity in generations. Was it greed? Yeah. It was greed on everyone’s part. It seems a bit disingenuous to now in hindsight say it was only the banks. A lot of people bet on the real estate market and a lot of people lost. Myself included. It’s like playing roulette and when you lose you try to say “I didn’t really mean to put my money on that number”. It’s too late. Did the house know that the odds were in their favor? Yeah. You knew or should have known that the bet was not a sure thing.

I still don’t know for sure if the Bank Bailouts were good or bad. But I still think they were a good bet. We loaned them money and they paid it back with interest. We didn’t give them anything. To now say we need to extract our pound of flesh because we made a good loan, seems a bit disingenuous. The banks are still carrying a huge backlog of risky or bad loans they need to work through. It will cost them a lot in the coming years. Piling even more penalties on them only serves to delay the recovery. It’s time to move on.

bkcunningham's avatar

A real lift example of your point(s), @Qingu. I understand and absolutely agee that there were people who did beyond wrong in the mortgage loan fiasco. There are people who knowingly broke the law and screwed people, real life humans who have to eat and need a roof over their heads. There are people who have been prosecuted and are spending time in correctional facilitities (either county, state or federal; depending on their crimes) for the illegal crap they did.

Can we prosecute for the immoral? I don’t think so unless there is a legal action regarding the infraction of conscience you and I both see as truth.

Are there people who knowingly benefited from the mortgage arrange in a slightly different way, like a very nice roof over their head that was beyond what they knew they could afford? Yes. I know people like that. I know people who I like and who I’ve listened to tell stories of wrongdoing that they knew when they did it that it was wrong. But they did it anyway because they…well, I don’t know. Maybe they didn’t think they would be caught or they they thought they deserved what they got because they’ve been screwed before.

Buttonstc's avatar

The good old “bait and switch” is as ancient as time (unfortunately).

bkcunningham's avatar

Is that directed at my post above yours, @Buttonstc? If it isn’t, I’m sorry for the confusion. Forgive me if I misunderstood your post, but I don’t understand what you mean by “the old bait and switch.”

Qingu's avatar

@Jaxk, again: I think we are completely talking past each other.

Let me be clear. I agree with you: I would never take an ARM loan unless I had to (I rent, have no debt); many (perhaps even most) of the subprime mortgage holders were acting irresponsibly. You are preaching to the choir.

What I disagree with is that the spike in subprime mortgages originated on the demand side. Why were banks making these loans? Isn’t it a bank’s job largely risk management? Why were banks willing to jump from 8% subprime loans to 20% at the height of the crisis? Were there suddenly nearly twice as many potential homeowners?

The answer of course is no; a huge mass of cheap money to use as leverage and a completely unregulated “shadow banking system” of credit default swaps that enabled these banks to package the toxic mortgage debt and trade it with no oversight. That created strong incentives, or moral hazard to put it like a conservative, for banks to make a shit-ton of risky loans.

Now, I didn’t say “it was only the banks.” But the banks, as institutions*, should have known better. In fact many of the banks did no better and still traded toxic debts because, of course, there were huge profits in them.

(* if not as individuals within those institutions. I mean, I’m absolutely willing to entertain the possibility that individual actors in the finance industry were simply and naively trying to maximize their profits and were unaware of the systemic risk their corporate strategies were posing. But I seriously, seriously doubt many individuals within these insutitons were not culpable and maliciously so).

Finally, I feel the same way you do about the bank bailouts. I agree with OBama’s characterization of them as like a “root canal.” They needed to be done, and they were done for a fair price. Please understand that I am not demanding additional regulation for the financial industry as some kind of “payment” (or punishment) for the bailouts, or even for largely causing the recession. I am demanding additional regulation because the industry became completely self-destructive and destructive to society as a whole in the face of a regulatory vacuum. And I want to regulate it only insofar as to prevent a similar level of destruction from happening again.

Note that the decisions and responsibilities of individual homeowners are not really related to any of this.

Qingu's avatar

@bkcunningham, I don’t think anyone should be prosecuted unless they broke the law. Setting up a shadow CDS banking system and pushing risky mortgages to fill it up was deeply irresponsible, greedy, and I’d argue immoral, but it was legal.

And like I said: the difference between the bankers who played with fire by pushing risky loans and the now-indebted homeowners who irresponsibly took the loans… is that it’s the bankers job to know better.

bkcunningham's avatar

Was it the bankers, @Qingu, or two levels of people who mada a quick mill’ repackaging mortgages into investments after the bank or mortgage broker gave someone a home loan? That was the game that Congress was warned about long before the house of cards, so to speak, fell down.

Buttonstc's avatar

@bkcunningham

No, not addressed to you at all. Merely a comment upon the whole idea of suckering people into mortgages which were bound to backfire on them. Unscrupulous lenders/brokers figured out how to skirt the regulations and went to town with it.

The low starting payments were the “bait” the adjustable part the inevitable ” switch”.

Same old story gussied up in new clothes (pardon my cynicism)

bkcunningham's avatar

I suppose we just have to agree to disagree on some things. I don’t think you give people enough credit. Not everyone is so stupid to not know they kind of mortgage they were signing for. Not everyone mind you. I don’t believe that. But I can’t believe, and I don’t know anyway to “prove” it either, that the majority of home buyers didn’t know there was a chance that the mortgage could balloon. Things were good and they didn’t think it would happen. If it did, it would be further in the future when their incomes were better and things would just work out.

Buttonstc's avatar

But let’s not forget that for years and years prior, there were guidelines set in place. If potential buyer’s annual income was XXXXX, he then was qualified for a mortgage up to YYYYY dollars.

The people who do this for a living were the ones who decided to toss those guidelines to the winds. Then they disguised these risky loans in package deals with other debts designed to obscure them. The certainly knew better. Many home buyers did not (this was not their primary area of expertise every working day of the year) for the lenders it most certainly was.

So, who had access to the most pertinent info. 24/7 and who stood to profit the most in the short term ?

Qingu's avatar

@bkcunningham, I don’t know if it was the same individuals. It was the same institutions and the same overall industry. The fact that there was this incentive for individuals within this industry to take such risks in this way is justification for regulating that industry.

And the responsibility, or irresponsibility, of the individuals who took those risky loans is beside the point. Should they have known better? Yes. Were all of them “tricked” by unscrupulous brokers and banks? No. What does this have to do with regulating the industry? Absolutely nothing.

Jaxk's avatar

@Qingu

Nothing is ever as simple as it seems. I didn’t want to get into the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) but I see that I must. The CRA was created back in the Carter administration and went through several updates throughout the 80s, 90s, and 2000s. Growing ever stricter as time went on. The original intent was quite honorable as regulation generally is. The intent was to eliminate what they called redlining. That was where banks would shy away from giving loans in certain neighborhoods (almost always low income). The banks didn’t want to make a loan in a neighborhood that was deteriorating, it just didn’t make good business sense. If the area is deteriorating the declining values left no equity for the banks collateral. So congress in their infinite wisdom, decided that this was discriminating against minorities (the deteriorating neighborhoods were typically minority neighborhoods) and had to be fixed. So they created the CRA which gave the banks basically a quota for low income loans. The banks were evaluated on their CRA rating and if it was too low they had to justify why and they were subjected to hearings with the community Organizations such as Acorn. This is not an attack on Acorn there are many such organizations that would have input. If the bank wanted to expand or merge or open a new branch they had to have a good CRA rating or get the backing of these community organizers.

Of course all the regulations stipulated that the loans had to make good business sense but if the neighborhood didn’t make good business sense to begin with, it was an oxymoron. So in order to comply, the banks had to come up with ways to get loans to risky customers. Lower down payments, lower credit scores, etc. As time went by and the rules for the CRA ratings tightened, the banks became even more creative in order to comply. Sub prime loans were one way to do it, no doc loans were another. The gutting of Glass- Steagal provided an incredible incentive to the banks to jack up thier CRA rating. Afterall, the big banks all wanted to get into investment business but in order to do so, they needed approval and that meant they needed a good CRA rating.

Now you can say what you want about bankers but they’re not stupid. They quickly realized that they made good profit on the loan origination fees and they could quickly sell the loan to Freddie and Fannie. Freddie and Fannie didn’t seem to care much about the details of the loan, they just bought everything from the banks. By the time of the crash Freddie and Fannie owned half the sub prime loans. Freddie and Fannie were a joint venture between the government and private industry so the implication was that the government would stand behind those loans. That lent credibility to the derivatives that were considered very, very low risk. If you look back at the officers of Freddie and Fannie, they made a fortune during this period (tens and hundreds of millions of dollars). The Bush administration tried to stop Freddie and Fannie but everyone was making a fortune and the CRA was a resounding success, no one wanted to hear it. Then the crash and the search for the scapegoat.

Everyone is pointing at the banks. So the banks are hunkered down waiting to see what happens. They still need thier CRA rating so they don’t make loans to anyone which preserves thier loan distribution as required by CRA. So we create Dodd-Frank. We force the banks to hold higher cash reserves. This exacerbates the problem by reducing the cash available for loans. We also begin restricting things like credit card charges to reduce the profits of the banks. What this has to do with the sub prime crisis I have no idea but it does cause the banks to pull back even more on thier lending. We completely ignore Freddie and Fannie and create no new regulation for them even though they were a major player in this whole mess. We also don’t even talk about adjusting the CRA that started this whole mess. Somehow we seem to think that if we just create new regulations, it doesn’t matter what they are, it will make it look like we’re doing something about the problem. Unfortunately we’ve done nothing to address the root cause and a lot to exacerbate the ongoing problems.

I know this response is too long and I’ve left out a lot of detail. But we didn’t get where we are just because we had a few bad apples in the banking industry. What we had was a whole bunch of good intentions that went horribly wrong. Not exactly a new story.

Qingu's avatar

Ah, the usual conservative villains list comes into play. Acorn and Jimmy Carter caused the mortgage crisis indeed.

http://www.businessweek.com/investing/insights/blog/archives/2008/09/community_reinv.html

Just the idea that a lending crisis created from 2004 to 2007 was caused by a 1977 law is silly. But it’s even more ridiculous when you consider that most subprime loans were made by firms that aren’t subject to the CRA. University of Michigan law professor Michael Barr testified back in February before the House Committee on Financial Services that 50% of subprime loans were made by mortgage service companies not subject comprehensive federal supervision and another 30% were made by affiliates of banks or thrifts which are not subject to routine supervision or examinations.

Not surprisingly given the higher degree of supervision, loans made under the CRA program were made in a more responsible way than other subprime loans. CRA loans carried lower rates than other subprime loans and were less likely to end up securitized into the mortgage-backed securities that have caused so many losses, according to a recent study by the law firm Traiger & Hinckley.

Love to hear you explain how CRA loans managed to be less toxic than unregulated ones.

Jaxk's avatar

@Qingu

I see nothing in your post that contradicts my point. There is no question that the relaxed lending rules played a major role in both the boom and the bust. One of the curious events for the banks was that foreclosures for these creative loans were not substantially higher than they were for conventional loans. That held true through 2005. In 2006 the tide turned and foreclosures began to increase but not explode. Lending companies such as Nationwide, took full advantage of this phenomenon. The foreclosure rate in hindsight is not surprising since real estate values were escalating so fast that even if you couldn’t make the payment you could sell for a profit, even if you only owned the property for a few months. So why let it foreclose. Lenders like Nationwide specialized in these creative loans, sub prime, no down, no doc, etc. Consequently when the bubble burst they were hit the hardest.

What your post doesn’t address is why the lending rules changed. And I might add that if the banks were not the source of the problem, if thier loans were actually made in a responsible way, why would we think that more regulation of the banks would solve the problem. It gets curiouser and curiouser.

Qingu's avatar

“I see nothing in your post that contradicts my point.”

The fact that CRA loans were not toxic flatly contradicts your point, @Jaxk. You cited CRA for created an incentive to make risky loans… but most of the risky loans were made outside CRA regs. That makes no damn sense.

I’m not sure what “changed rules” you are talking about. A lot of things happened in the 2000’s (and in the 90’s too) that encouraged the bubble and subprimes; part of it was cheap borrowing rates which banks abused for leverage, part of it was relaxed regulatory rules and the complete vacuum of regulatory rules for credit default swaps, which is where these subprime mortgages were actively traded. The SEC and the Fed failed in its regulatory duties. Here’s a summary of the official report on what went wrong.

And yes, if banks made loans responsibly and traded responsibly I would not be calling for more regulation.

Edit: I think you are confused; the risk from subprime mortgages was not just limited to the banks that directly lent them; the whole point is that the debts were traded with other banks, in a completely unregulated market, effectively spreading that risk throughout the financial system.

eatrep's avatar

@SavoirFaire

Government operates courtrooms, so why are they protesting Wall Street when they should be protesting in Washington only?

Government allows lobbying, not Wall Street. So protest Washington, not Wall Street.

Government creates policies, not Wall Street. So protest in Washington, not Wall Street.

I never said taxation is stealing, I said redistribution of wealth is stealing. If rich people legitimately obtained property through voluntary trading, then the government has no right to take anything away from them. They should be charged just as much taxes as anyone else for the simple role of the government (police, court rooms, military). There should be no public service, that’s the point I’m trying to make. I don’t want the government to have a monopoly on roads, transportation, etc…therefore; I don’t want to be taxed for it more, even though I may benefit from it more. Having the market takeover roads and transportation would lower the cost factor due to the competition, it would be more efficient and evolving, and I would pay for the service only when I need it. You don’t get that option with government; instead you get taxed more for using it more and you consistently pay for it whether you make use of it or not.

Now, here are a few additional points on why progressive taxation won’t work even if implemented.

1. Raising taxes on the rich lowers savings rates. High-earners have a lower average propensity to consume, so shifting the tax-burden away from them will increase the aggregate savings rate, which should increase steady state growth (if the savings rate is initially below the Golden Rule savings rate).

2. “The diminishing returns argument applies to the fraction of income used for present consumption. As income rises, diminishing returns implies that a smaller and smaller fraction of income will be spent on consumption goods. The remaining income will (of necessity) be used to purchase capital goods. This acts as a form of positive feedback that in turn yields more income for capital spending. Meanwhile (and because) these capital goods induce a decline in the costs of production which has the effect of raising real wages generally and implicitly raising the general standard of living. The income paid back on the capital helps create the disincentive to consume that creates capital spending. Thus, those capitalists who effectively manage their property are rewarded and given control of more (newly created) property, of which they are increasingly less inclined to consume and increasingly more inclined to purchase capital goods and thus further elevate the general standard of living by driving down the costs of production. As they acquire more capital goods, eventually their ownership outstrips their ability to manage and oversee what they own; however, they control only as many capital goods as can be attributed to the income of their prior capital——which previously did not exist. Therefore, their ownership does not negatively contribute to the general standard-of-living relative to counterfactual state of them not purchasing those goods. It would thus be misleading to argue that redistributing their capital may yield further increases in the standard-of-living. Doing so may well cause that effect, but doing so neglects that it was the assumption that redistribution would not happen that induced the accumulation of capital.” — Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk, Karl Marx and the Close of his System, 1896

3. Raising taxes on the rich shifts the total economic production of society away from capital investments (tools, infrastructure, training, research) and toward present consumption goods. High-income earners tend to pay for capital goods (through investment activities) and low-income earners tend to purchase consumables. Spending more on consumption goods and less on capital goods will slow the rise of the standard of living, and possibly even reduce it since capital goods increase future production possibilities.

4. Raising taxes on the rich creates work disincentive. Consider again someone who makes twice the minimum required to live on but pays all income above the minimum living threshold in taxes. Such a person had no monetary incentive at all to try to increase his or her income above the base level.

5. Then there is economy equity, which is representation being out-of-proportion to taxation. While the top 5% in income, in most countries pay over half the taxes, they have only 5% of the voting weight. Or reverse this into the plutocratic case, that if tax is to be progressive, it should be accompanied by greater say in elections for those who contribute most.
Keep the government at out of the market completely will allow everything to be in the same tax bracket despite the amount of wealth they accumulate.

Keeping the government at out of the market completely would allow everyone to stay in the same tax bracket despite the amount of wealth they accumulate, and that tax bracket would be 10% if not less.

You know that 48.5% of this country are on welfare? Most of that % are tax exempt.

I don’t see anyone in a uproar on that class. Or is the American dream that everyone live equally in poverty?

eatrep's avatar

@SavoirFaire,

Also, taxes that go to for transportation, roads, are a small percentage.

Most of it is going in medicare, social security, welfare, military.

So that’s another nonsense reason to tax the rich.

Response moderated
eatrep's avatar

There is a very simple concept here.

If you believe adults are children, you will vote for big governments to watch over and plan for people how to live, large social welfare programs, intrusive government policies, etc..

If you believe adults are adults, then you will vote for small governments that treat adults as adults, and hold them responsible for their actions as adults. A government gives them the freedom of choice and holds them responsible for those choices.

I’m not arrogant and all knowing enough to decide who is dumb and who is smart, and dictate their life’s choices for them, so I vote for a simple government that just ensure we voluntary trade, not violently.

After this initial premise, every other argument will be logically consistent.

“Adults are dumb, so we need governments to do A, B, C”

“Adults are adults, so we need no government to do A, B, C”

ETpro's avatar

@eatrep We gained many a millionaire when the top tax rate was 90%. The Republican Big Lie about trickle down and taxing the rich at their fair share being a disincentive to work is rubbish. It doesn’t hold up to examination of the facts.

If taxing the rich makes people quit working—in other words they would rather be poor thatn rich and pay a reasonable tax rate, then explain this. Bill Clinton raised taxes on the rich. His administration created more jobs than any other since WWII, and put us on track to be debt free by 2020. George W. Bush slashed taxes on the rich twice. His administration had the worst job creation record of any president since WWII, and he doubled the national debt in his 8 years.

I don’t believe all adults are dumb. Your argument that this belief is the only one justifying government is absurd. I belive some adults are criminals, and some are willing to play dirty to win. I believe Enron was nothing but a criminal enterprise, and loose regulation made their crimes possible. I believe poor regulation resulted in the Great Depression, the two Savings and Loan bailouts of the 1980s and the Great Recession of 2007. And I believe if we trust free markets exclusively and gut regulation, such events will happen on an increasingly regular basis.

eatrep's avatar

List me all the millionaires when we had 90% tax bracket.

I’m not a republican and I’m supporting their type of economic system of giving tax cuts for the rich. There is a difference between everyone paying equally and redistribution of wealth.

Bill Clinton taxing the rich a little more had nothing to do with job creation. Highest tax bracket was 36%, we have 35% now….

Easy money from the Federal Reserve System created massive malinvestments, especially in the high technology sector, which are in the process of being liquidated. Basically, a large part of the economic prosperity under Clinton was due to Greenspan’s inflationism, which eventually created the largest bubble in the world (the one after the 2001 crash, which should have been much more severe). However, some of this bubblish activity did create real prosperity, as it funded technological innovation, which increased productivity per worker.

Bill Clinton also caused the Nasdaq crash after attacking the technological sector (the wonderful regulations), and if that wasn’t enough, he decided to start destroying the tobacco and pharmaceutical industries too.

Your next point is ignoring everything I’ve been saying in this thread, so I’m going to repeat it again.

1. If two people voluntarily conduct trades, you don’t need regulations. All you need are contracts and very well written out property rights.

2. Only some are criminals, so punishing everyone with regulations because of a few bad apples doesn’t make any sense. Point 1 solves the issue without spending tax dollars and doesn’t make it extremely difficult to start up a business (costs, delays, standard, etc..)

3. No matter how reinforced regulations are, they will always be captured by the market and used to their advantage. This works the same way with governments. You can make all the policies in the world to keep a government safe from corruption, but it will always get captured in the end and those policies will be undone or used against you.

You seem to think that every time a regulation failed it’s because it wasn’t reinforced, and that is why I told you to look up regulatory capture. It doesn’t matter how enforced it is, it will always be easily penetrated by the market.

Limiting government intervention over markets is the only way you can get rid of corruption because there won’t be anyone to capture and their won’t be anyone to lobby to, thus forcing the market to follow the rules of the contract, and the designated property rights, otherwise they will find themselves quickly out of business with no too big to fail bailout.

The government serves only one purpose, to have a monopoly on force (includes court system). When property rights, and contracts are violated, see your court systems for resolve the issue, case closed. No captures, no lobbying, no taking advantage.

eatrep's avatar

Also, there were 16 recessions and 2 depressions before the central bank was created, and after it’s creation, you also had 16 recessions and 2 depressions.

Now take all the unintended consequences that occurred since the central banks creation, and you’ll see it has caused ten times more problems when compared to the times before its existence.

Regulations were reinforced for 100 years and still couldn’t get their act together.

ETpro's avatar

@eatrep Don’t use ridiculous arguments. It makes your entire case look silly—without merit. How on earth am I supposed to provide you a list of all the millionaires we had drom 1950 to 1963. The top tax rate was 91% to 92% between 1950 and 1963 on earth am I supposed to provide you a list of all the millionaires we had drom 1945 to. Bear in mind it only applied depending on the year, to incomes above $250,000 to $1,000,000. You got to keep most of the income below that break point, and that was a king’s ransom in those days. Howard Huges was certainly one of them I did find this

Your numbers are wrong, as well. THe top rate under Clinton was 39.6%, not 36%. Look it up.

The problem with the “need more billionaires” argument is that it addresses the supply side, not the demand side. US corporations are currently sitting on $2 trillion in cash. They are not investing it and creating jobs because there is no demand. There is no demand because the middle class and poor have been devastated by the 2007 Great Recession that Republican Deregulation largely caused. Shoveling more of the middle class/ money to billionaires will do NOTHING to create jobs. It will only create richer billionaires.

There has only been one depression since the Fed was created and it occurred shortly after their creation. There were a series of them before it. There were 22 recessions and 2 depressions before creation of the Fed. There have been 13 recessions since the Great Depression.

Again, your statistics seem drawn from a right-wing think tank’s propaganda rather than from reality.

eatrep's avatar

@ETpro wrote “We gained many a millionaire when the top tax rate was 90%”

Then you wrote

“How on earth am I supposed to provide you a list of all the millionaires we had drom 1950 to 1963.”

So Why are you making claims you can’t prove then?

Only in 1994 was the tax highest tax bracket 39.6% under Clinton. The rest of the years it was 36%

Billionaires will not invest with good reason. With an unpredictable government, they worry about tax increases on them, and more regulations, wages, unions… With this in mind, they’re going to think twice about how they spend their money in this country.

I don’t blame them for outsourcing to other countries. The entire country is starting to run like California. After California implemented an internet sales tax, Amazon and a few other Corporations took more then 30,000+ employees and left the state. This triggered other business’s to leave in the coming weeks.

California’s unemployment is like 16%, and that is not including people who stopped looking.

Our current government administration seems to want to use California policies as a model for the rest of the country.

ETpro's avatar

@eatrep I’m 67 year old. I was around watching what was happening in the 1950s and the 1960s. The economy was expanding at an unprecedented rate. We CREATED the present middle class after WWII. We had never really had a solid middle calss before. Those were America’s best years.

Since the Reagan Revolution and slashing top rates from 70% when Reagan took office to 28%, things have gone downhill. The money types are increasingly dealing in off-shore investments, hedge funds, financial games like Enron was playing and so forth. Increasingly, they create nothing but paper profits for themselves. Jobs have been flying offshore. Money was made like Mit Romney made it with his Dain Capital. Corporate raiders like Romney looked for US corporations with some cash somewhere, either in banks or pension funds. They used the company’s own cash as colateral for a loan to buy the company, saddling it with huge debt and often decimating the pensions of workers who had paid into them their entire lives. They offshored the jobs to cut costs, showed a book profit of 100% or more on the lower costs, and sold the company for millions before the crushing debt they stacked up in the takeover hit the fan. THAT is why we need regulation.

eatrep's avatar

All of a sudden your sources are better then my sources? Eh?

I’ll stick with mine. 16 depressions 2 depressions vs Central Bank Creation 16 depressions 2 depressions.

Keep in mind, I’m not including panic runs. That’s probably why they come with 22.

In either way. Even with your source, 13 recessions and 1 depression, you call that a better system? Because it had one a few less recessions? You still don’t account for the unintended consequences which did not exist before the central banks implementation.

eatrep's avatar

Okay, I’m not repeating myself. I’ve addressed your points, but you keep at it.

Agree to disagree then.

ETpro's avatar

It’s like this. Amn I going to believe you or my own lying eyes. What was the 2nd depression after the Fed was created? How would you keep the money supply adequate for a growing GDP with no central bank? What major industrial nation has a booming economy and no central bank?

Sources are reliable when they have no partisan axe to grind. Sources funded by the Koch Brothers and the Waltons have a very strong bias to present “facts” that say we should send all possible funds to the billionaire Oligarchs (themselves). Not all rich people are so greedy, and I am not attacking the rich. Certain rich people are attacking all the rest of us, and those who aren’t rich and play water carrier for them are nothing but dupes.

eatrep's avatar

1920–21 was a separate depression. Then you had a great depression from Aug 1929 – Mar 1933.

Market replaces the central bank as it does with everything else.

There is no nation without a central bank, and that is why there is no nations that is booming, or should I say booms for too long.

World markets are crumbling. Most of these markets are liberal. So what does that say about liberal policies if its all falling apart?

The only ones that are taking less of a hit are those with less government intervention.
Places like South Korea, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Macau, Hong Kong.
This places basically have the same liberal setups, but a lot less of it. Leaning to a lot more free market Capitalism.

Although growth is slowing down there too which is worrying the rest of the world because they depend on them.

eatrep's avatar

I never sourced anything from Koch Brothers or the Waltons, so I don’t know where you come up with this stuff. You keep mentioning all this right-wing stuff, when I made it clear I’m neither a right-winger, nor a supporter.

And providing me with liberal sources is not a genuine counter argument.

I’m a libertarian and subscribe to Austrian economics which consists of two Nobel laureates Friedrich Hayek and James M. Buchanan.

And of course Jeffrey Miron, the current director of Harvard Economics.

ETpro's avatar

@eatrep I apologize. You’re right about there having been two depressions since the Fed was created. I should have looked up when the Fed was created. It was established on December 23, 1913 in response to a series of financial panics, particularly the severe panic of 1907. However, its original charter did not give it the assignment or power to anticipate and defend against depressions, so the Depressions of 1920–21 and 1929 cannot be laid at the doorstep of the Fed. Since the Fed’s charter was expanded by FDR to include fighting depressions, we have had NONE. We have had a total of 7 depressions as shown below, not 4.

Here’s a detailed record of economic downturns from the beginning of the USA to today:

We have Had 7 Depressions:
1 —Depression of 1807
2 —1815–21 depression
3 —1836–1838
4 —late 1839–late 1843
5 —Panic of 1873 and the Long Depression
6 —Depression of 1920–21
7 —Great Depression of 1929

I would also point out that the only difference between many of the panics and a full-blown depression is the duration of the downturn. The original reference above shows that a number of the Panics involved a deeper drop in GDP than the Great Depression did. We have has ZERO panics since the founding of the Fed.

Recessions before Fed Established:
1 —Panic of 1797
2 —1802–1804 recession
3 —1812 recession
4 —1822–1823 recession
5 —1825–1826 recession
6 —1828–1829 recession
7 —1833–34 recession
8 —1845–late 1846
9 —1847–48 recession
10—1853–54 recession
11—Panic of 1857
12—1860–61 recession
13—1865–67 recession
14—1869–70 recession
15—1882–85 recession
16—1887–88 recession
17—1890–91 recession
18—Panic of 1893
19—Panic of 1896
20—1899–1900 recession
21—1902–04 recession
22—Panic of 1907
23—Panic of 1910–1911
24—Recession of 1913–1914

Recessions after Fed Created:
1 —Post-World War I recession
2 —1923–24 recession
3 —1926–27 recession
4 —Recession within Depression, 1937
5 —Postwar Recession of 1945
6 —Recession of 1949
7 —Recession of 1953
8 —Recession of 1958
9 —Recession of 1960–61
10—Recession of 1969–70
11—1973–75 recession
12—1980 recession
13—Early 1980s recession
14—Early 1990s recession
15—Early 2000s recession
16—Recession of 2007–2009

The spin masters you got your information from must be juggling out depressions they don’t want to count, and ignoring Panics as neither recession nor depression even though many were deeper downturns than the Great Depression, all to make a political point that simply is not supported by the facts. The problem with juggling and spinning facts to fit ideology is that belief does not control truth. If it did, the Earth would still be flat and the sun and stars would revolve around it, fixed in the dome of the sky. Ignoring economic facts to make an ideology sound true is a blueprint for future economic catastrophes.

eatrep's avatar

I told you, even if I agree to your sources, just because you had a few less recessions after the central banks implementation, does not mean the central bank was responsible for preventing those few recessions. It could easily be the markets evolvement. In fact, so far all the examples I gave shows the central bank to be at fault for the countries problems. If you add all the unintended consequences to the list of recessions and depressions since the central banks creation, then the central bank has caused 10 times more problems in comparison to times before its creation.

So not only did the central bank do more damage, it didn’t accomplish its purpose of preventing recessions/depressions. Whenever a central bank attempts to fix a recession it actually prolongs it, because it tampers with the law of supply and demand, thus killing its efficiency in solving problems faster.

Also, you’re ignoring something very important. The conditions before pre-central banks in comparison to world conditions. It doesn’t cover that. At that point in time, the United States was more prosperous and more evolved/evolving compared to Europe, so to compare an evolved state to an evolving state is unjustifiable.

ETpro's avatar

@eatrep I agree that the Red is not able to create a recession-free environment. I do not agree with tearing down a fence till you know what it was built to keep out. You failed to document where you got the “fact” that the US has had as many depressions since the Fed was empowered to fight them as we had before. I showed, with fully footnoted links, how this simply isn’t true. We had 7 depressions before the Fed was given the charter to prevent them, and none since.

Even if you want to count the depressions of 1920 and 1929 against the Fed regardless of the fact it had neither the assignment or power to prevent them, that still leaves 5 before the Fed was established, plus an additional 6 Panics. We have not had a depression since 1933 when the Fed’s charter was expanded to deal with such economic catastrophes. We have also not had another Panic.Your link claiming we are in a depression now is not in keeping with any respected economist’s calculations. Such partisan Tea Party bvlather weakens your argument.

I asked you how you would control US currency without a central bank. You provided no plan. I asked for examples of major nation states today who have great economies and no central bank to control their currency. You provided none.

Instead, you continue to simply argue by assertion, stating over and over that you are right and therefore anyone who doesn’t agree with you is wrong.

I’ve been on Fluther long enough to give you some friendly advice. That style of argument won’t win you many converts here even if your ideas are right. If you’;re right, prove it. I’m not an ideologue. I am a pragmatist. If you can show me a better way, I will adopt it in a heartbeat. But I am not going to be swayed by argument by assertion to abandon something that has worked reasonably well since the Great Depression in favor of something you claim will work when you are unable or unwilling to provide any supporting evidence showing it will work.

augustlan's avatar

@eatrep has left the building. Returning troll.

Buttonstc's avatar

Gee, why am I not surprised?

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