Social Question

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

Can you tell the difference between what (male) rapists say about women and what popular men's magazines say about women?

Asked by Simone_De_Beauvoir (38980points) December 10th, 2011

Consider the following statements and mark which a rapist said and which was written in a man’s magazine (a bunch of British magazines were read for content), in your opinion. Then look for answers below and put down how many you got right. Be honest. I think it is highly disturbing that what’s out there for men to read (and the only ‘appropriate’ magazines to read anyway, to be properly masculine) sounds a lot like what rapists say about women because it’s not a leap to see that the culture of rape we live in isn’t just about the people who rape.

1. There’s a certain way you can tell that a girl wants to have sex . . . The way they dress, they flaunt themselves.

2. Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?

3. A girl may like anal sex because it makes her feel incredibly naughty and she likes feeling like a dirty slut. If this is the case, you can try all sorts of humiliating acts to help live out her filthy fantasy.

4. Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.

5. What burns me up sometimes about girls is dick-teasers. They lead a man on and then shut him off right there.

6. Filthy talk can be such a turn on for a girl . . . no one wants to be shagged by a mouse . . . A few compliments won’t do any harm either . . . ‘I bet you want it from behind you dirty whore’ . . .

7. You know girls in general are all right. But some of them are bitches . . . The bitches are the type that . . . need to have it stuffed to them hard and heavy.

8. Escorts . . . they know exactly how to turn a man on. I’ve given up on girlfriends. They don’t know how to satisfy me, but escorts do.

9. You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.

10. There’s nothing quite like a woman standing in the dock accused of murder in a sex game gone wrong . . . The possibility of murder does bring a certain frisson to the bedroom.

11. Girls ask for it by wearing these mini-skirts and hotpants . . . they’re just displaying their body . . . Whether they realise it or not they’re saying, ‘Hey, I’ve got a beautiful body, and it’s yours if you want it.’

12. You do not want to be caught red-handed . . . go and smash her on a park bench. That used to be my trick.

13. Some women are domineering, but I think it’s more or less the man who should put his foot down. The man is supposed to be the man. If he acts the man, the woman won’t be domineering.

14. I think if a law is passed, there should be a dress code . . . When girls dress in those short skirts and things like that, they’re just asking for it.

15. Girls love being tied up . . . it gives them the chance to be the helpless victim.

16. I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.

Answers. 1. Rapist, 2. Rapist, 3. mag, 4. mag, 5. Rapist, 6. mag, 7. Rapist, 8. mag, 9. Rapist, 10. mag, 11. Rapist, 12. mag, 13. Rapist, 14. Rapist, 15. mag, 16. mag

More info here.

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

109 Answers

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

I got 13 of them right.

CWOTUS's avatar

I got 12 right. What’s the meaning of “smashing her” on a park bench? That didn’t sound erotic…

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@CWOTUS Well, rape isn’t about sex or eroticism.

Aethelflaed's avatar

I’m shocked, shocked to find that a rape culture is going on in here!

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Aethelflaed Yeah, I know. Just thought that this particular activity might help others see it too.

CWOTUS's avatar

Well, yeah. I get that, @Simone_De_Beauvoir. You’re preaching to the choir here.

But a lot of the “erotic practices” mentioned in the quoted lines don’t particularly turn me on, either. But I figured that “smashing” was rape-related because it seemed in no way erotic, even borderline.

Michael_Huntington's avatar

6. They all sound the same.
I’ve always felt that these types of magazines were always stupid and offensive. “Here, let us tell you how to be a man by reinforcing gender norms/stereotypes!”. But this brings it to another level. The fact that this is on the market is just beyond repulsive.

ucme's avatar

Rapists spew out sinister bullshit, the magazine does likewise only with a liberal sprinkling of cheese, no difference really.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@ucme Right..but they’re selling…to terribly many men. (like any fluff magazines)

fundevogel's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir “Well, rape isn’t about sex or eroticism.”

I don’t care how often people claim rape is about control not sex. Just because someone likes the control of violating another person sexually doesn’t mean they can’t be getting off to it. And they are getting off to it, literally.

And then there’s all the…casual rape for lack of a better term. Sex that isn’t violent per se but was undertaken without consent. A lot of those guys genuinely seem to think that isn’t rape, that the girl didn’t really mean it when she said no. So how could that be about control when they’re too thick-headed to realize what dickwads they’re being?

Honestly I don’t know why people are so insistent about de-sexualizing rape. It’s rape. It isn’t any more or less atrocious if it is just about control rather than the product of a dangerously twisted sexual perversion.

dappled_leaves's avatar

@fundevogel Seriously? Sex undertaken without consent is violence.

ucme's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Oh they’re not men, those creatures are known as parasites & should be avoided at all costs.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@ucme Seems like there are a lot of parasites, then.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@fundevogel Well, it is for some about the sex, as well. It’s just never primarily that, for most.

fundevogel's avatar

@dappled_leaves I meant violence in the sense of inflicting physical injury, not all rape does that. And calm down. I’m not condoning rape, I’m just pointing out that not all rape is undertaken with the intent take away control of a woman’s body by force. Some of it is assholes that want to bust a nut and don’t respect women enough to take no for an answer.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir What I’m saying is that when control is a factor, it’s a because its a turn on. So it’s still about sex. Except perhaps in cases of rape with a foreign object. god this is a horrible conversation.

rooeytoo's avatar

I think there are two parts to this story and I don’t think that trying to change the way men think of women is step one. That has to be when women stop thinking of themselves as our culture indicates. Fashion is an example, I don’t think that a woman who walks around in skin tight clothes is asking to be raped, but what the hell is she asking for??? Women, from the Barbie days onward are led to believe they are incomplete without a man, marriage, family, house in the suburbs, etc. Many young girls do not think in terms of a career as a life choice, rather it is something to do until your biological clock ticking becomes too loud and you become a mother. So let’s first of all start teaching young females attracting a man is the number one goal in life. Then when women start taking themselves seriously, it will be much easier to get the males to think the same way.

And I know @Simone_De_Beauvoir – it is everyone’s right to dress as they wish, but if I don’t want people pointing and laughing, I don’t wear my clown’s makeup and big floppy shoes on the street.

I also believe, until the above happens, all parents should have their young females learn a martial art.

Blondesjon's avatar

Surprise! The media and rapists are fucking repulsive.

I, as a man, would like to point out that this is by no means the norm, nor the way most of us think about or view sex. I just thought I would point that out before the pitchforks and torches came out and everybody sporting a penis had to hide.

I guess the question just seems as sensationalist and half sided as the ridiculous “men’s” magazines they were culled from. Incredibly gender biased considering the source.

rebbel's avatar

They all sounds like phrases that could have been said by 8 out of 10 men in the coffee shack that I used to sit in, some twenty years ago when I was a house painter.
It was definitely not my cup of tea, and I am glad I have left that carreer behind me and the ‘macho’ men (some of them) that sprouted those ‘funny’ remarks.
To me it sounds as if the men that voice these things have serious problems, and I cannot think about saying them myself without feeling a bastard and feeling sick.
Knowing a victim of rape has only strengthened that opinion.
Edit: I didn’t do the quiz; they all fall in the same catagory to me.

dappled_leaves's avatar

@fundevogel Please do not tell me to calm down. You have no reason to believe that I am not calm.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Blondesjon Well however it seems to you is your perception. I don’t know any men who actually read these kinds of magazines but I know men are out there that do. And when they do, they read things that normalize these kinds of conversations about women. I don’t get what else you think I intend to do with asking this question other than to make people aware and see how they did when trying to differentiate statements. Yeah, and if you think I ever ask questions to make anyone mad at men or at women or whatever, you’re wrong. Also, it’d be great if you answered the question itself.

Blondesjon's avatar

I would be interested to see exactly which men’s magazines these quotes came from and how they look without the elliptical editing.

It seems to me that you are attempting to make us aware that men are simply walking cock fuses just waiting to be lit by the sub par literature that we read or a raised hem line. The entire question is presented with the underlying supposition that printed words cause aberrant behavior in men by their very existence.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Blondesjon That information is in the link I provided at the bottom of my details. What I’m attempting to do is to link up something we all find ‘illegal’ and something we all find ‘legal’ that has the same message and to see the connection between the two. I actually don’t think causation means correlation or I wouldn’t spend so much of my time dealing with telling people that porn doesn’t cause rape.

Blondesjon's avatar

And this is accomplished with creative editing and a hot button topic like rape? Again, presenting the question in this manner is as irresponsible as saying that a woman was raped because of the way she was dressed.

Rationalize it any way you like, it still reeks of sexist sensationalism and daytime talk show fodder.

[edit: this is only my opinion and you have the right to ask any question you like.]

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Blondesjon Well, I really do hope that sometime in the future you ask a much more nuanced, much more poignant question re: rape and our culture that makes people more aware.

There was no creative editing, rape is a hot button topic because it should be. It’s not sexist in any way and I don’t watch or recreate daytime talk.

saint's avatar

Everybody can argue that they are a victim, I guess. Perhaps the only difference is the time and place that they make the argument.

fundevogel's avatar

@dappled_leaves I thought I detected indignation at the idea that not every rape was violent. I’m sorry if I misread your tone.

saint's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir As relevant as the question. Rape is a phenonenon in human culture, and, like war and greed, it is properly regarded as one of the species’ annoying faults. It probably will not go away, until the species disappears. Speaking only for myself, I prefer the following alternatives-I accept human failings, rest assured that I will not commit rape, and I would rather be here than disappear.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@saint It’s not ‘an annoying fault’ in my book. It is something that can be curtailed, just like war. It is also not a ‘human failing’ like you know…not being on time or something.

MRSHINYSHOES's avatar

I got 8 correct. Most men wouldn’t say those things in the company of women, but among themselves, in men’s clubs, in the locker room, at work, they often do. The magazine is just a reflection of that reality.

@Simone_de_Beauvoir, you’re welcome. ;)

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@MRSHINYSHOES Jesus, thank you for actually answering the question.

fundevogel's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I got 11, but honestly I was mostly going by the way the comments were framed rather than their content. A lot of the quotes sounded like they were coming from the world’s worst sex advice article. I mean number four? Come on.

saint's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Curtail away. Most attempts to legislate against human nature end up producing a troubling “counter behaviour”. But maybe in this case it will work out. Like I said, I sympathize with victims of rape, and I am not a rapist. So all I can do is see how it all plays out. I really do not see a day where all people inclined to rape actually disappear from earth. They may all wind up in prison, but only after they commit rape in the first place.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@saint I’ll just say I disagree that rape is ‘human nature’ – I just don’t believe that’s what men are hard-wired to do.

HungryGuy's avatar

I got 10 correct. Although I think there’s some truth to one or two of those statements.

For example, Q.1: Women often do give off subliminal cues as to their current state of horniness; but of course, that doesn’t give a man the right to rape her.

Also, Q.15: I can say with absolute certainty that there are plenty of girls who love being tied up precisely because they want to feel like a helpless victim (as long as it’s consensual and with someone they trust).

Donning my flame-proof undies now…

incendiary_dan's avatar

Damnit, you beat me to posting this.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@HungryGuy To Q.15, sure…so do men.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@incendiary_dan Oh yeah? You too were interested in ‘sensationalizing rape’ through a ‘sexist’ question? Yeah, good times.

MRSHINYSHOES's avatar

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with fantasizing about it. Both men and women do. It can be titillating to fantasize about it and derive sexual pleasure from such fantasies, but the majority of us men do not go beyond that.

saint's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir So why do they occasionally do it?
I don’t believe that women always bond with men to achieve their (the men’s) money and/or power and influence, but it is clear that they sometimes do. So there you go. It happens. You can’t change it. If you disapprove, then feel free to live your life by a different code of values. I will not stop you. You don’t have to worry about me. I am more like you than your personal pride would allow to think.

HungryGuy's avatar

@MRSHINYSHOES – Of course. Believe it or not, I’ve crossed paths with women who really do fantasize about being raped for real. Can you believe it???

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@saint Occasionally? Oh sure…so why do you think women in the republic of congo get this occasionally times a thousand?

MRSHINYSHOES's avatar

@HungryGuy It’s almost the norm in Japan. It’s almost everywhere there (magazines, movies, manga, adult comic books,etc.), even around children. Most Westerners would be shocked and horrified to see what’s in the media there. Yet Japan is one of the most safe, orderly, and well-behaved societies in the world.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@HungryGuy I don’t think that’s so fantastic. It is ever-present and it makes it very taboo to want and anything that’s taboo to want makes people hot. Why do you think so many people get off at starting at children?

HungryGuy's avatar

@MRSHINYSHOES – Oh yes, I know that. The Japanese openly read porn on the subway, and are open about sex in public, even though they’re very prim and proper with the bowing and the slipper/shoe customs and all that.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Right. Sex is a taboo subject in the west, and that effs up much about human sexuality and exacerbates problems like rape and violence against women. Maybe the “solution” is to work to remove the taboos over nudity and sex, both in private and in public.

saint's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I do not live in the Congo. I am sorry if they have a problem. I did not cause it. I refuse to be held account for what happens in the Congo. If you try to pin it on me I will blow it off. So you do your good works in the Congo. I will try to help them after I pay my bills. This is one of those circumstances on Fluther where a dog chases its own tail. I can’t offer a solution for the problems that you regard as important. You have your values, I have mine. Too bad if I do not give it the same importance. Good luck in your work.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@HungryGuy Sure, that’s part of the solution.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@saint What makes you think you’re being held accountable for rape? I have no idea what the rest of your comment is about. I mean I read it and get it but I don’t get what you’re getting triggered about.

saint's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Don’t worry about it. This is all I have to offer in this thread. See you next time :-)

bkcunningham's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir, would you kindly help educate me? What are “lads’ magazine?”

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@bkcunningham Lad is what I’m assuming to be the British term for man.

HungryGuy's avatar

@bkcunningham – It’s what they call men’s magazines in the UK.

incendiary_dan's avatar

Do I need to be the one to point out every time that THERE ARE CULTURES WITH NO RAPE. It is not a human norm.

bkcunningham's avatar

I thought it might be, but it sounds so, I don’t know, young or juvenile. I just wanted to make sure it wasn’t a magazine for teenage boys. Thank you.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@incendiary_dan But it’s human nature! They must be unnatural.

Aethelflaed's avatar

@incendiary_dan It might be more helpful if you provided sources to that statement.

incendiary_dan's avatar

@Aethelflaed I’ve provided them a hundred fucking times on this site, and the same morons keep ignoring them. If you want to do the research yourself, look up the Hadza, the San, the Batek, the Okinagans, and the Haudenosaunee. The San in particular have a lot of material written about them, including Marshall Sahlins’ “Original Affluent Society” and Robert Black’s follow up “Primitive Affluence”.

Aethelflaed's avatar

@incendiary_dan Ok. You and I have never had this conversation, and the only other rape thread I can remember both of us being on, you didn’t provide them. So please don’t take your frustrations out on me.

fundevogel's avatar

@Aethelflaed I’m not sure how reliable worldwide rape statistics could be since you have to rely on what gets reported and the various agencies that they are reported to. Given the range of attitudes towards rape and different calibers of law enforcemnet they are reported to you couldn’t really expect a consistent meter. Especially in places where rape victims are the ones that get punished.

Edit: I’d love to see what data is available though.

HungryGuy's avatar

@incendiary_dan – I started reading a little about the Hadza. A culture that has remained uncontaminated by other cultures for tens of thousands of years. Fascinating!

incendiary_dan's avatar

@Aethelflaed You inferred tone where there was no frustration. I simply use the work ‘fuck’ a lot.

@HungryGuy Not exactly uncontacted; there are really only a few truly uncontacted indigenous peoples in the world. But they have been highly successful in keeping their traditional lifeways intact for the most part, as have the Batek. Some of the other groups I mentioned haven’t been so fortunate, but even so most of them have maintained the high status of women in society. Interesting studies in gender egalitarianism. During the armed standoff in Oka in 1990, one of the striking aspects of the conflict was the women of the Mohawk people were calling the shots (pun intended).

Aethelflaed's avatar

@incendiary_dan I use fuck a lot too. But usually, when paired first with shouting (the CAPS) and then ‘morons’, yeah, there’s some frustration there. Interestingly, I notice that every single time anyone ever infers tone on Fluther, even if they are not the only one to infer that tone, they are wrong, and the OP did not have that tone. No one ever says “you know what, I didn’t phrase that as civilly and respectfully as I could have, and I apologize”.

incendiary_dan's avatar

Nah, I’m just kind of a dick sometimes. :P

MRSHINYSHOES's avatar

@HungryGuy Yes, I have visited Japan many times. In every big city there, sexuality is upfront, uninhibited, and unabashed. There is a lot of sexual violence in various forms of entertainment over there——rape, S and M, pedophilia, etc., and the Japanese people seem impervious to it. To the typical Westerner, many of the things you see would be deemed criminal here. It’s funny, therefore, how one men’s magazine can cause such a big “issue” with the people here. It’s like “OMG, we can’t have a magazine that divulges in such violence, creating a culture of rape! Shame! Bad!”

@HungryGuy, despite the prevalence of porn and rape literature in Japan, many women and girls walk the streets quite safely in most places in Japan. I felt very safe in the big cities of Tokyo and Yokohama. I remember I got lost on a Yokohama street one evening, and a young girl about 12 years old walked me to my friend’s residence all by herself, around dark narrow streets and apartment buildings. It’s not uncommon to find small groups of children walking without their parents at night in the big cities.

dannyc's avatar

Rapists are weak men with extraordinary warped reality. They rationalize their views of women in a mundane dark, secretly struggling to understand their issues of power and lack of confidence with women. The numeral you reach is just a sign of your struggle. Men and woman are one in power. Weak men must get a grip on this. Hopefully our media will project a healthier role model mix, but from what I see on ads I peruse, there is much to learn. This question is important as a result to refocus those efforts.

Uberwench's avatar

I got all of them correct. The trick was to figure out which ones were condescending and which ones were said by rapists.

@rooeytoo The vast majority (96%) or rapists don’t remember what their victim was wearing. Interviews with convicted rapists reveal that they mostly look at the shoes of the victim do determine the ability to run away or fight back, and that conservatively dressed women were more titillating as targets.

Aethelflaed's avatar

@Uberwench which ones were condescending and which ones were said by rapists. ROLFMAO!

rooeytoo's avatar

@Uberwench – may I quote from my response, “I don’t think that a woman who walks around in skin tight clothes is asking to be raped.”

So the stats from your unnamed interview don’t really apply to my response. I asked what the hell they were asking for by dressing in the tight revealing clothing? I truly don’t think they are asking to be raped but they are certainly doing it to gain some sort of notice.

fundevogel's avatar

@rooeytoo So what if they do want to be noticed? What’s wrong with that?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

Fashion is an example, I don’t think that a woman who walks around in skin tight clothes is asking to be raped, but what the hell is she asking for??? I don’t think they want to be raped, but they want to be sexually appetizing, that IS the culture of most media, especially here in the US. The media seem to say if you are “shagable,” or “boinkable” you have to be some cretin or troll no one wants to touch. That is why anyone past 16 who is still a virgin is clowned. Many women seem lead one to believe 5in stilettos, a tight dress were you can’t wear panties for VPLs, are not for comfort, it is to attract. A woman should be able to wear garb like that, but she has to play attention to her surroundings, situational awareness is key.

(back to the question)
I can’t say how many I got right or wrong, I loosely kept score. The ones about dress I got as rapist, and the domineering woman, but those are classic rapist traits.

Why many guys don’t think it is rape if they are raping a woman, especially one they know, perhaps the woman is selling the wrong message. If I told you everyday you can’t have a muffin but I encourage you to gaze on them, smell them, and if you reach out and grab one I say don’t do that, but I don’t move the muffins or physically stop you. After 4 straight days of this song and dance you would feel it was all posturing, that I was all hat and no cattle. Women should be precise and constant, no, soft ‘no’ on Monday, weak ‘no’ on Wednesday, then hard forceful ‘no’ on Friday, only to revert to a maybe ‘no’ on Saturday.

rooeytoo's avatar

@fundevogel – I guess it is why they want to be noticed and how they go about getting noticed that I feel is wrong. I think it is sad if women buy into that aspect of culture that says you must parade around half naked in order to attract a man because you are nothing without a man. I heard a male comedian say something about how he doesn’t walk around with his testicles half hanging out and he wonders why women walk around with their breasts half hanging out. I wonder the same thing.

Aethelflaed's avatar

@rooeytoo It seems pretty dismissive to say that if a woman doesn’t have enough clothes on in the right places, she clearly isn’t ok with out a man. For starters, lesbians, anyone? Or what about women who are very picky in whom they date, and put career, school, and friends first, but maybe wear a sweetheart neckline as well?
Yes, it’d be nice if our daughters could be the most “fish without a bicycle” ever, but it wouldn’t change rape stats. If we’re targeting children, I don’t understand how putting time and effort into raising an independent daughter is somehow easier than putting time and effort into raising a son who respects the word “no”.
Honestly, your entire answer smacks of replicating the virgin/whore dichotomy, with respectable women/not respectable women, thus creating a category for which some women can fall (and fall they will, the second they get raped – we’re all sluts and whores after we’re raped) where it’s kinda ok that they got raped. Not only is this incredibly harmful to those who fall into the ‘not respectable’ category, but it creates a sense of false security for the ‘respectables’, who are then left doubly shamed and isolated when they suddenly find themselves in a different group. If you really don’t think women deserve to get raped, don’t follow it up with a “but”.

rooeytoo's avatar

@Aethelflaed – wow, you sure read a lot into what I said and all of it incorrect. Go back and read my answers without inserting your own interpretations between the lines.

bkcunningham's avatar

According to the article the study used four UK lad’s mags with the highest circulation: FHM (155,557 Total Average Net Circulation / Distribution Per Issue 01 Jan 2011 – 30 Jun 2011), Loaded (49,448 Total Average Net Circulation / Distribution Per Issue 01 Jul 2010 – 31 Dec 2010), Nuts (114,019 Total Average Net Circulation / Distribution Per Issue 01 Jan 2011 – 30 Jun 2011) and Zoo( 54,318 Total Average Net Circulation / Distribution Per Issue 01 Jan 2011 – 30 Jun 201), published between January and March 2010.

“Quotes from convicted rapists from verbatim interview transcripts in the United States in the book: The Rapist Files: Interviews With Convicted Rapists by Sussman & Bordwell.”

I don’t like that I can’t find the context and content of the words taken from the magazines. Was it a fiction story contribution? Was it in the context of a “How not to talk or think,” article? I don’t know. It is hard to comment with so little information. I’m amazed at how many comments there are though. Perhaps someone can tell me where to find more information about the information @Simone_De_Beauvoir posted.

fundevogel's avatar

See what I did there? Give it a little time and some other jelly jumps in with a brilliant response. Thanks @Aethelflaed!

@rooeytoo I’m glad that you’re concerned about women putting too much stock in how they look, but I think you’re committing a grave mistake by presuming that women who dress a certain way are victims of the sort of thinking you describe. There’s more reason than one to shimmy into wiggle dress or strap on some killer heels. Not the least of which is feels nice to embrace you own sexiness. I shouldn’t have to deny myself my feminine sexuality to be a strong woman. Actually I might not be so strong a woman as I think if I have to deny my sexuality to feel strong.

A strong person, no matter their gender, doesn’t shape themselves according to other people’s expectations of them. They own all of who they are and damn the consequences.

rooeytoo's avatar

If embracing your sexuality means having your breasts half hanging out and wearing “wiggle” dresses, then so be it. It’s certainly not my idea of embracing anything except male dominated fashion designs. And if it projects the statement to the world that you want to be known by, again so be it. It certainly isn’t what I would want for my female relatives, I would rather see them excel at some learned sport or art or endeavor. But I guess it is easier to embrace sexuality.

fundevogel's avatar

@rooeytoo “I would rather see them excel at some learned sport or art or endeavor. But I guess it is easier to embrace sexuality.”

This isn’t an either/or situation. You don’t have to sacrifice one for the other, that’s the whole point. I don’t have to de-sex myself to be successful, smart or confident. I’m disappointed that you can’t seem to accept that these things can co-exist. Frankly it’s rather sexist of you to be so fixated on how a woman dresses to the point that you automatically assume she can’t possibly be making something of herself if she also happens to have a plunging neckline.

Babies make it hard for women to have careers. Heels…not so much.

rooeytoo's avatar

heheheh, now I’m sexist. I give up, as I said you dress any old way you like, let it all hang out if that makes it easier for you to embrace yourself. I will form my opinion of you when I see you.

Babies should be your career for 18 or so years when you have them. Heels are just to make your feet hurt and throw your back out of alignment. I have no idea what you meant by that statement.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@rooeytoo Yes, you’re right that these days liberation seems to mean something more superficial than previously, for some women. That doesn’t mean we get to tell anyone how to dress or victim-blame them when they get raped. If you think women should care more about careers, so should men…that is people of all genders, your reproach shouldn’t be solely for women.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

The difference though, is that men don’t let their bits hang out at work. Usually. Women who blatantly flaunt their bodies in a professional setting do not appear as professional. Makes it difficult to take them as seriously when they’re wearing wearing titty tops and hooker heels. It may be sexist, but it’s the truth. If you dress like a hooker, people will treat you like a hooker, whether you’re a teacher, a lawyer or a doctor.

incendiary_dan's avatar

Anyone else think the focus on careers for any gender is kind of dehumanizing? No? I’ll go back in my hole now…

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate The difference is men don’t have to, they have privilege. You take them seriously because you’ve been taught to and to devalue women and to position yourself against ‘those kinds of women’. @incendiary_dan Yes, sure…but as long as we’re pretending that matters.

incendiary_dan's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate Actually, in a lot of office settings women who show more cleavage are more likely to “succeed” can achieve higher positions.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

No, the difference is that a woman dressed scantily in the workplace gets less of my respect than women who dress appropriately. If a man draped himself over my desk and his man boobs were hanging out everywhere, I would take him less seriously also. Or if he were wearing a skirt short enough that I could see his ass. Although that’s not an issue for most men.

I haven’t been taught to devalue anyone. I have been taught the difference between appropriate workplace attire and “off-the-clock” attire though. It always amazes me when women who appreciate those differences are accused of being brainwashed or taught to devalue their own sex.

At the company I used to work for, the receptionist always wore teeny tops, teeny skirts and stiletto heels, and would make a point out of dropping something so she’d have to bed over and pick it up. She wasn’t a professional who felt “liberated” enough to wear that sort of clothing. She was the company whore, and everyone knew it.

@incendiary_dan That’s typically because their bosses are men… just sayin’.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate What is ‘appropriate’ for a woman is much more discussed and policed that what is ‘appropriate’ for a man. You (and me and all of us growing up in Western society) have been conditioned to tread a careful line between ‘always be attractive’ but ‘not when when we don’t want you to be attractive’, living in the ‘madonna/whore’ complex. Even the fact that you have no issue calling another woman a whore means the technique of ‘divide and conquer’ has worked.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

That’s mainly because men don’t often wear horribly inappropriate clothing to the office to begin with. if they wear pants and a decent shirt, they’re covered. Men haven’t made a habit out of showing up for work in titty tops and mini-skirts, and that’s why there isn’t as much discussion over what is appropriate for them to wear.

I call her a whore because she slept with over half the men at the company (and it was a very large company), including the owner, which is why complaints against her were always swept under the rug. Hell, she was caught on security camera giving blowjobs in the parking lot. Many times, she’d be sporting new trinkets or baubles from her “gentleman” admirers. That’s not a liberated woman who enjoys sex; that’s a whore.

whore: n. a woman who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse, usually for money or goods

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck…

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate Well, whatever…we’ll have to disagree on that one.

rooeytoo's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate – I think you have stated the situation truthfully and completely. Whether it is fair is not the point, it simply is!

And @Simone_De_Beauvoir – in my first post I said choice of dress is no excuse for rape ever. I haven’t changed that opinion. There are women though who get all offended if men come on to them (not rape) when they are dressed like prostitutes, as chocolate said, if it walks like a duck, etc.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@rooeytoo No, if it walks like a duck but isn’t a duck then it isn’t a duck.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

But if it looks like a duck, everyone thinks it’s a duck. That’s the point.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate Fine…so what you’re saying that men are allowed to come on to women who ‘look like prostitutes’ because it’s okay for them to harass prostitutes, officially.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

No, that’s not what I’m saying at all, and you know it. I don’t think it’s okay for men to harass anyone. I’m just saying that if a woman dresses like a hooker, she should expect to be treated like a hooker.

It doesn’t make it okay, but most women know, in this day and age, that if they dress slutty, randy men will assume that they are sluts. It’s called common sense.

I’ll come back to this later. My daughter has an orchestra concert tonight. Shall I ignore what would be considered to be appropriate attire for the evening? Maybe I should wear a skintight dress with fuck me pumps and report back on how I’m treated. Or perhaps I could use common sense and dress appropriately for the occasion.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate Why should she expect to be treated like a hooker? And what is it exactly, to be treated like a hooker? Explain this in terms of your co-worker who you know is not a hooker. And this common sense, they can shove it..those men.

bkcunningham's avatar

I, for one, love high heels. Hooker shoes, F-me pumps. Whatever you call them. I have extremely high arches and they were always comfortable to me.

Blondesjon's avatar

@bkcunningham . . . According to the article the study used four UK lad’s mags with the highest circulation: FHM (155,557 Total Average Net Circulation / Distribution Per Issue 01 Jan 2011 – 30 Jun 2011), Loaded (49,448 Total Average Net Circulation / Distribution Per Issue 01 Jul 2010 – 31 Dec 2010), Nuts (114,019 Total Average Net Circulation / Distribution Per Issue 01 Jan 2011 – 30 Jun 2011) and Zoo( 54,318 Total Average Net Circulation / Distribution Per Issue 01 Jan 2011 – 30 Jun 201), published between January and March 2010.

“Quotes from convicted rapists from verbatim interview transcripts in the United States in the book: The Rapist Files: Interviews With Convicted Rapists by Sussman & Bordwell.”

I don’t like that I can’t find the context and content of the words taken from the magazines. Was it a fiction story contribution? Was it in the context of a “How not to talk or think,” article? I don’t know. It is hard to comment with so little information.

I totally agree. In such a politically correct day and age, where a tantrum thrown by Alec Baldwin over a Kindle on an airplane is national news, I find it hard to believe that any magazine printing statements like that, in context, would survive and/or not make the nightly news.

Also, check out what a casual Google search turned up on a registrar at the school the study originated from from.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@HungryGuy *_Believe it or not, I’ve crossed paths with women who really do fantasize about being raped for real. Can you believe it??? I can, actually. Around six years ago I met up online with this woman on some social site, we were going to meet up, have coffee, see if it was going to go anywhere. Seeing we were both somewhat in a hook up mood we were going to see if that was the direction things would go. So the talk was quite sexual really quick. She had this fantasy of having a train of Black studs use her to the point of rape, filling every available hole in her body. She practically begged me to get my friends together so she could get rode hard and put away wet. Needless, to say, I was not into it, and we had to go our own way.

@WillWorkForChocolate Makes it difficult to take them as seriously when they’re wearing wearing titty tops and hooker heels. It may be sexist, but it’s the truth. If you dress like a hooker, people will treat you like a hooker, whether you’re a teacher, a lawyer or a doctor. That and other things you posted during the coarse of this thread lead me back to think of this, no matter what, or who, you do get judged. People will see a woman in a tight top with deep plunging neck, short skirt, and high heels and form an opinion of her just off sight. Same as they would a man with a goatee, and tattoos creeping above his collar and down his wrist under the cuff of his short. He could be a gifted engineer but will not be given much of a chance to prove it because of who he is thought to be.

The sad thing is, the gal might be in the same position but many might ignore that fact as they did the receptionist, kudos for you being able to say whore, anytime I got near that word I got the cattle prod or an “Auggie Whip”. I have seen work places where women use their (ahem) “assets” to skate by, get others to shoulder their load, or angle into promotions they were not qualified for. Depending on the work place, a tiny top, mini, and heels can get you a leg up (no pun intended).

I have to agree with you, people will be judge, that is why women who can get by without a bra wear them, to blend in, and fit in the masses. For the longest you would not see a corporate man with a tattoo unless military inspired and then only one, no more than two.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

Okay, I’m back but it’s late, so I’ll offer my final thought on this before I crash. For anyone who says things like, “You can’t judge a woman as a slut just because she dresses like a slut” here’s an easy analogy that anyone here should be able to understand:

If I mail you a box wrapped in Christmas paper, you’ll automatically assume it’s a Christmas present right?

You have no idea what’s inside, and you’ll never know until you open it. It may not be a Christmas present, it may be something completely different and I just decided to wrap it in Christmas paper for the fun of it. But if it’s wrapped in bright, shiny Christmas paper, you will believe it is a Christmas present when you look at it.

Same damn concept. Period.

fundevogel's avatar

@bkcunningham “I, for one, love high heels. Hooker shoes, F-me pumps. Whatever you call them. I have extremely high arches and they were always comfortable to me.”

Nice. I bet you wearing slick shoes doesn’t at all get in the way of being an accomplished and well-rounded person either. People certainly shouldn’t assume that your taste in fashion is reason to make presumptions about your depth of character, ethics or purpose. :)

rooeytoo's avatar

I think you all should look at @Joker94 ‘s link, it is indeed relevant and funny too.

bkcunningham's avatar

Oh what a beautiful way to start my day. Thanks for the laughs @Joker94 (and the reminder @rooeytoo).

Joker94's avatar

@rooeytoo & @bkcunningham Glad you guys liked it! :)

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

I think the beginnings of that segment was as telling as the clip @ Joker94 linked. Now, IMO there are different levels of prostitutes, if I use the ‘W’ word I somehow get jumped all over, those in the micro minis, tube tops, etc might be more of the streetwalker variety, but those who, escort or outcall would appear close to any woman going out on the town. Mini or not, many women are teasers because they know they can, that is why they are so confusing and a lot of guys don’t know if the “no” is a ”no”, or a “I have to say ‘no’ to appear not to be easy”. Although, in reality most are, as Chapelle said, if sex were stock, the value would be falling because women give it away way to easy now. Chapelle should be a relationship counselor! :-)

It was fairly funny to boot.

Uberwench's avatar

@rooeytoo I know you weren’t saying anyone was asking to be raped, but I don’t think the question “but what the hell is she asking for?” is a good one. Clothes don’t ask for anything, and my point about rapists not being able to remember clothing points out that you don’t have to be asking for anything—rape or otherwise—just because you’re dressed in a way that some people think is provocative. If I run around in cut-off jeans and a tiny shirt, I’m not asking for anything. Maybe it’s just a hot day.

rooeytoo's avatar

@Uberwench – I live in the tropics, tight fitting cut off jeans are the worst thing to wear, light weight and loose is the way to go in all clothing.

I don’t disagree with what you say, but I do think women should think about the statement they are making with their dress before they walk out the door. There is a difference between dressing to be (literally) cool and dressing to adhere to society’s rule that you must dress to attract male attention.

incendiary_dan's avatar

There’s also a difference between fashion advice and victim blaming, including the timing.

Uberwench's avatar

@rooeytoo I didn’t say “tight,” I just said “cut-off.” That something is short doesn’t mean it’s tight, but people tend to assume that showing skin is necessarily some sort of statement about sex rather than comfort. That’s a mistake. I’m bisexual, and I primarily date women these days. Even when I go out wearing something sexy, it is probably not to attract male attention. My statement is not “come and get me boys” no matter how many people might think or wish it was. It’s not women who need to learn to dress differently. It’s people—men and women alike—who need to stop interpreting clothing choices so poorly.

rooeytoo's avatar

@Uberwench – you are never going to stop people from thinking what they want to think or interpreting. And each and every person has their own opinion of what constitutes good taste and propriety in dressing. So when you step out your door others are going to judge your dress etc. You either say who cares and dress as you choose or you say I will dress as I choose but I will not expose parts of my body that most consider private. The choice is yours and it is mine and everyone else as well. I reserve my right to think!!!!!

Answer this question

Login

or

Join

to answer.
Your answer will be saved while you login or join.

Have a question? Ask Fluther!

What do you know more about?
or
Knowledge Networking @ Fluther