How to prepare food that is suitable for Muslims?

While I respect your desire to do what’s “right”, I think in her position I would find it decidely more offensive that you’re ignoring her request and suggestion, and instead asking random anonymous people online what you should do for her, rather than simply doing what she asks.

I think this is a case where doing a Google search for “halal rules” is likely to turn up much better results than our random speculations. There should be loads of valid material online.

@janbb That was my first thought also, but after a bit of searching, I found nothing about tainting things when washing up. As I mentioned, I thought it was far more simple than this.

Well – all I can suggest about that is what I know from keeping kosher which may or may not apply to halal. In kashruth, meat and dairy dishes have to be kept strictly separate and not be touched by any unkosher item such as pork or “porky” sponges and you do have to wash them separately.

Well, Muslims are different on this matter too. Some do not freak out about the sponge, for example. So best to just talk to your roommate.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir makes sense. Religious Jews differ in how strictly they observe the laws of kashruth so I’m sure Muslims differ as well.

make sense!

Just ask her what she prefers, tell her you want to make sure she is comfortable living there. I have a feeling she doesn’t stick to strict rules, but has certain rules that she is comfortable with. I don’t know Muslim rules for food. But, for Jews who are orthodox/observant, the dairy and meat would need to be kept completely seperate. Two sets of dishes, and even separate dishwashers and ovens to bake in many homes. Some Jews only worry that dairy and meat are not on the plate at the same time. Some will eat non-kosher, exept still exclude pork and shellfish. Some only keep kosher at home, but eat anything out at a restaurant.

You could just go vegan until you move out.

These seem to be a couple of pretty good articles on “keeping Halal.”

http://www.crescentsofbrisbane.org/the_good_caterers_guide.htm

http://www.dmaonline.org/Members/Articles/2011_05_halalMeat.pdf

It seems like the most important thing, in terms of the “peripherals,” in terms of cross contamination is that Halal and non-Halal meats to not come in contact with each other, or that Halal meats don’t come in contact with things that have come in contact with non-Halal meats unless they have been thoroughly cleaned. It is difficult to thoroughly clean a sponge.

It doesn’t seem to be quite as strict as “keeping Kohser” can be, with the keeping of separate sets of dishes and all that, but as others have mentioned, different people have different degrees to which they strictly adhere to religious guidelines. It is probably best to ask her, but it’s a bit of a problem, because it sounds like your flatmate is really trying not to be too demanding and you are really trying to accommodate her. Sometimes people can be so accommodating and so earnest, falling all over each over each other, with one trying not to be too demanding and one really trying to please that it never does get quite right.

I had absolutely no idea, so sorry. But dude, I just had to ask, a sponge with a black x mark on it? And the x stays? Funny. : )

@mazingerz88 I’m doing an experiment. I marked one of my kitchen sponges, using a Sharpie, with a big black X; on the scrubbie side, not the sponge side, and I’m going to see if it stays there. I’ll let you know how it goes. I’m just certain that you’re as interested in the results as I am. :-)

@lillycoyote Oh yeah, thanks! Ah, the stuff we learn from Fluther. And I’m kinda thinkin, @poisonedantidote could have also gotten a sponge with a different color instead of the x? : )

@mazingerz88 I guess @poisonedantidote could have gotten a new sponge, a sponge of a different color, to be used in the future, and thrown that one away, but the X was to identify the sponge that was already tainted. Maybe he’s or they are just very frugal, like me, and they didn’t want to throw away a perfectly good sponge that could still be used for non-Halal circumstances.

@lillycoyote Good point.

Thinking of pork sponges when being a guest in someone’s home is a clear sign of religious fundamentalism. To me this isn’t acceptable. It creates divisions between people. Once you know this person better I would have an open and honest discussion.

@mattbrowne I am surprised by your answer.

@mattbrowne They are roommates; they share a flat.

Tsk, unwanted pork sponges. I’m glad pigs aren’t easily insulted. Lol.

Let’s change the question to

“How to be a roommate in an open society that is suitable for members of this open society?”

Religious fundamentalism doesn’t stop with sponges. The next imposition is the elimination of pork smell. This happens in German and French school cafeterias all the time. Religious fundamentalists demanding that all pork meals have to be removed. The molecules from the odor are touching the divine and pure halal plates and food. Some religious fundamentalists are offended by mini-skirts over here. So now we got a pork sponge and a halal sponge. Next we need a slut sidewalk and a halal sidewalk.

This trend got to stop. Religious fundamentalist can decide to live in flats with religious fundamentalist residents only.

Obviously @mattbrowne you are coming from a different European perspective but most of us in America are more than willing to try to accommodate religious dietary restrictions as we can. Our country is built on a belief in tolerance for diversity not the elimination of private religious practice. You are coming across here as very intolerant to me which is surprising knowing you.

@janbb I do think the situation in some European countries is different than our experience in America. I also am surprised by @mattbrowne opinion on the matter, but maybe the situation is very different? In America our land mass and population is so big, I don’t know, maybe we feel less threatened, or have more room for everyone? A girlfriend of mine said in MI some public schools either installed or were asked to install (I don’t remember if it was agreed to or not) foot baths for Muslims. You may know the largest concentrations of Arab Muslims in America is in Dearborn, MI. So, is that bringing religion or culture into the public schools, or just making a small accomodation? I think I am against it actually.

@janbb I found an article on the topic. It includes examples of k-12 and University level. I think probably University should be treated differently than k-12. What do you think about it?

@mattbrowne I don’t respecting a flatmates food preferences necessarily leads to all the changes in the public arena. In fact, sometimes I think showing respect on the individual level means the minority feels less of a need to change everything to their liking. The flatmate only cared about not using the sponge, she didn’t ask for pork to be kept out of the flat altogether. She is compromising on her ideal situation, nice of @poisonedantidote to want to be sure she is comfortable if it does not inconvenience him.

I see where @mattbrowne is coming from. I sure hope this stops at pork sponges. It should never go airborne at molecular levels. Really? That is worrisome indeed.

@mazingerz88 I just have a hard time believing in America it would ever get to that. Especially not on a large scale. There might be small incidents in communities, but eventually that would go or be dealt with. Orthodox Jews, Amish, and more live their lives how they prefer without trying to change society at large to accomodate them.

@mattbrowne You’re going all slippery slope on me. This question is really a matter between two flatmates. Some people follow the dietary rules of their religion more strictly than others. What exactly do you propose? That people not be allowed to keep Halal or keep Kosher in their own homes? That is what this is about; what this question is about, someone wanting to follow the dietary restrictions of their religion, in their own home, and having a roommate willing and wanting to cooperate. I think extrapolating to society as a whole, based on the issues brought up in this question; it seems overreaching to me. Particularly since @poisonedantidote is willing and wants to accommodate his flatmate’s religious dietary restrictions as best he can. That is what he is asking for help on.

What’s the difference between

- sharing a sponge
– sharing a school cafeteria
– sharing a sidewalk ?

European countries are also built on a belief in tolerance for diversity and not the elimination of private religious practice. But we are faced with increasing massive intolerant behavior of a very small minority of Muslims in our countries. They don’t tolerate many of the behavior of our majority of Christians, agnostics and atheists. They reject our rules and customs. Their fathers refuse to shake the hand of female teachers, look at them or even listen to them. Their daugthers are not supposed to join the rest of the girls in the gym. Field trips of their classes are considered unislamic. That’s the reality. A very sad reality.

The absurdity of a contaminated sponge is a first dangerous step into this kind of thinking. Of course everyone tolerates dietary differences. There are Muslims who don’t pork. Halal food is fine. There are vegetarians who don’t eat meat. That’s fine too. There are vegans who don’t drink milk and so forth. Again, fine.

But a sponge with hot water and soap in it dissolves the fat of any animal. A clean rinsed sponge can be reused. A cafeteria can be shared. And a sidewalk used by a woman wearing a mini-skirt does not contaminate the sidewalk so a devout Muslim can no longer use it.

We have to tell devout religious people from whatever religion that there are boundaries that should not be crossed and behavior and demands we can’t tolerate in an open society. Otherwise we won’t get along with each other in a globalized world. To me being worried about sponges borders on religious nutcases. Plain and simple. Just like creationism or other forms of out of control religious extremism.

What’s the difference between sleeping with someone in the bedroom or out on the sidewalk?

@mattbrowne , It sounds like Muslim fundamentalists where you live are as intrusive as Christian fundamentalists are here.

@mattbrowne I have no idea how Muslims think about their food, but Jews for instance, a lot of them, do not bring pork into their homes, but don’t worry about their food being cooked in a pan that had pork in it previously when eating out, they might even eat pork when out. Maintaining a Jewish home is how they look at it. Most Jews like this identify as Conservative. I worked with an observant/orthodox woman who was willing to eat fish, pasta, and veg in non-kosher restaurants, but she really was breaking kosher law since the restaurant kitchen was not kosher and pork and shelfish likely touched those plates before.

Again, I’m talking about a very small minority of Muslims making absurd demands and showing unacceptable behavior. The vast majority of Muslims in Germany are wonderful people and I know many of them. A couple of months ago I read a book written by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lale_Akguen who served as an MP for Cologne in the German parliament 2002 – 2009. She actually encourages all Germans to confront fundamentalist Muslims in Germany.

Just to be clear here. I totally respect people who do not eat pork. The issue here isn’t pork. The issue here is a sponge.

Take the example of a German school cafeteria. There are hundreds of students and two of them are devout fundamentalist Muslims. Of course they don’t eat pork at the cafeteria. That’s fine. Now here’s the problem: it’s a small school and there’s one dishwasher to handle the dishes of the cafeteria. A father of one of the Muslim students raised the issue. He doesn’t want the plate of his son go into the same dishwasher as the plates of the other students, because they might be “contaminated” with non-halal food. Lale Akgün who is a practicing moderate Muslim is very clear on this. The principal should not cave in. There’s one dishwasher. Period. Hot water and detergent in dishwasher or sponge take care of residue. We know this in the year 2011. People did not have our level of knowledge in 700 CE or 1000 BCE. So people practice ancient thinking in their own home that’s fine. But when people from diverse backgrounds interact and share resources in a modern society this doesn’t work. Whether it’s students from diverse backgrounds sharing a flat, a cafeteria, or a sidewalk.

I understand your point more fully now and agree with most of it. The one thing we differ on is the roommates sharing the flat; particularly since the non-believer is asking for help in how to accommodate his friend. My son is sharing a flat with his Kosher-keeping cousin and they have worked together to establish ground rules that honor each person’s needs.

@mattbrowne I am basically where @janbb is. I agree with you about the school, they should not accomodate the special need of this student, plus it doesn’t make sense because probably his food is being cooked in pots and pans that jad pork, not just the dishes. If the students are overly focused about the plates, the students can bring their own paper plates and be served on that, but the school should not cave on the dishes I agree.

I think roommates can work these things out though. Again, I think many people feel when it is under their control, in their home, they wamt to comply as well as they can, outside of the home, they can loosen up out of practicality.

@mattbrowne I don’t mean to hound you but, do you not support people keeping Kosher in their own homes? If people have a separate set of dishes, one for meat and one for dairy, for example, what is the difference, really, between someone wanting to have a pork sponge and non-pork sponge in their own home, if that is what is necessary to keep to their religion’s dietary laws?

I’m glad I could explain my point of view in a way that doesn’t put me into a corner of intolerance. Thanks for your reassuring words.

@lillycoyote – I don’t see a problem with kosher or halal or vegetarian or vegan food as such. But yes, I do see a problem taking this to the extreme as many ultraorthodox Jews and fundamentalist Muslims certainly do. I reject the notion of kosher or halal plates, knifes, sponges, dishwashers and so forth. Why?

One of the main problems with religious fundamentalism is the claim of moral superiority. Such claims are by no means limited to extreme religious value systems. Other ideologies such as Nazism or White Supremacy do make similar claims. In the American South of the 50s the rejection of sharing public space and public resources was the norm. Segregation was widespread. White supremacists refused swimming pools or drinking fountains used by black people. Drinking from the same water fountain violated their value system and traditions. The same applied to restaurants and their kitchen equipment. It had to be separate.

I greatly value all tolerant forms of religions, yet I do not support religious ideologies which promote segregation and the division of people. Fundamentalist forms of Islam support the segregation of men and women, and they also support the segregation of Muslims and non-Muslims in public life. The claim of moral superiority is key.

In order to build a better future for all of us in the 21st century we all need to challenge fundamentalist tendencies. Fundamentalists don’t want people to think for themselves. The whole day is highly regulated. All views are uniform. Fundamentalists want to control the thinking of people. Fundamentalists don’t want their followers to challenge outdated rules that might have made sense in the past, but that don’t make sense in the 21st century. Osama bin Laden didn’t even use toothbrushes and toothpaste because the Prophet didn’t use them. He chewed on wood.

Islam’s dietary laws talk about not eating pork. The Koran encourages Muslims to use their mind. Lale Agkün never gets tired reminding her Muslim brothers and sisters. She can cite many suras by heart. So if I had a roommate demanding a non-pork sponge or halal plates, I would say, please my dear friend use your brain. Read the Koran. What will hot water and detergent do to sponges and dishes? There won’t be anything of the pork left. What about some remnants? Well, I do eat pork and a lot of airborne pork molecules will actually touch your halal beef and some will stick to it. Besides, many beef atoms used to be pork atoms in the past. You and I both have a few atoms from Shakespeare in us, come to think of it. So please, relax and use your brain and don’t take things to the extreme. Otherwise we have to eat in separate rooms. We need pork rooms and non-pork rooms. Cafeterias need pork dishwashers and non-pork dishwashers. Oh, let’s not forget fundamentalist Hindus. We need a non-beef dishwasher too. Perhaps even some vegan dishwashers. Is this really the society we want? Let’s value our religious traditions, but let’s not take things to the extreme. Let’s remind ourselves that traditions do change. Today in America white people and black people don’t have a problem sharing a sponge or a drinking fountain. Let’s follow their example. Let our traditions evolve. Let us share our sponge.

@mattbrowne I am glad you wrote all of that out. I found your comparison to the American segregated south a good and useful analogy.

What I am thinking is, the sponge is not washed like the pots and pans and plates, so it might just be a little quirk of the roommates. The OP did not mention anything about plates or flatware.

I recently found this quote from Harvard professor George Vaillant, author of ‘Spiritual Evolution’:

“The increasing education and intolerance for patriarchal dogma have led to steady erosion of membership in most mainstream religions. On the other hand, this shift towards secularism has been offset by an equally steady increase in fundamentalist religions that isolate their believers from the rest of the world. As a result, contemporary culture holds no universally accepted view of human nature. If the world is going to function as one small planet, the development of some kind of consensus regarding human nature is essential.”