Do you know someone who is baffled by their inability to snag a long term partner, but the reasons are quite clear to you?

Sorry… the single people I know are very happy. Those in relationships, not so much.

One of my best friends is like this. All he wants to do is settle down. I actually dated him for a little while in high school and when we broke up, he cried and later accused me of lying about loving him, because he believes that it’s impossible to stop loving someone. We didn’t speak for four years but recently became friends again. He’s matured in some ways, but he still moves way too fast when it comes to relationships. He had a girlfriend for 2 or 3 months and they broke up this summer. They broke up because he declared that he would commit himself to her fully and she freaked out. He has now been broken up with her for longer than the relationship lasted and he still gets horribly angry and weepy about it. I don’t have the energy having just gone through a break-up myself to sit him down and tell him that he’s got to really dial it back if he wants a long-term relationship.

I did recently confront him about some of the things he said and did after our break-up and he admitted that he was in the wrong about a lot. Calling me a liar, calling my house all the time immediately after we broke up, things like that. I take that as a good sign. It means he’s maturing, but I still worry that he’s going to end up either perpetually single because he scares girls off, or that he’ll end up with a girl who is also super intense and they’ll end up causing irreparable damage to each other.

Yeah, my son. He’s incrediably socialable but once he has an interest in someone or vise versa, he becomes really awkward…
He’s aware of his problem, he just doesn’t know how to not be awkward.

@KatawaGrey I know someone just like that, it’s what prompted me to ask this question.

I know someone who projects a completely different version of herself when she first meets people. Not necessarily a better or worse version, just… different. Almost like she’s on a job interview. I think it’s a defense mechanism, like she’s not really able to relax, open up and be herself until she knows someone for quite a while. She’s a warm, funny, sexy woman, but you’d never know it upon first getting to know her. She comes off quiet, reserved, and a little matronly at first. This could put potential boyfriends off in a few ways. They might sense the facade and not like the non-genuine feeling they get from her (thus getting her no second date), they think the facade is real and want a more modern, confident woman (thus getting her no second date), or they assume the facade is real and like it, thus ending the relationship later when her ‘real’ self comes out.

We’ve talked a little about it in the past, but not as it pertains to finding a partner. When we did talk about it, she said she couldn’t help it, so I doubt more talking would change anything. It’s too bad, because she really, really wants a long-term partner. :(

How do girls like it when guys get “weepy”?

Sure, doesn’t everyone? Many of my friends spend an enormous amount of energy complaining they don’t have some ‘perfect man’ but they’re nothing special themselves. Why would anyone be interested in you if all you do are vapid things?

I have given this answer before, but it warrants repeating.

My neighbor use to be a night club dancer. Needless to say, she had many “dates”. She got hooked on illegal drugs and became pregnant twice. She has been married three times and here past always comes forward to haunt her and cause her divorces.

She cannot see and understand this, that decent guys do not want “used goods”. I have attempted to tell her this many times. Instead of changing, she returns to the illegal drugs.
She is 38 and will never have a satisfying and lasting relationship.

@john65pennington Yeah, except those same ‘decent’ guys used the goods…that’s such bs

She treats all guys like “bros”... and they treat her like a “bro” in return.

Simeon De Beauvoir…..it is what it is.

@john65pennington: It sounds to me like her problem isn’t that she’s “used goods” but that she picks the wrong guys. Remember, not everyone is as judgmental as you!

@Mariah: As a geek girl, being one of the bros has the opposite effect. Geeks see me as one of the bros, but then realize that I’m essentially a best friend they can have sex with. It’s both weird and awesome. O.O

@john65pennington, weird that your neighbor doesn’t want to hear you judge her based on values she doesn’t share. Maybe you should mind your own business.

I would have said yes to this at one time—I have a friend who’s needy, clingy, and nuts about relationships in a way that attracted lunatics and drove normal people away.

But he finally met a nice girl who was just as needy and they seem happy. So sometimes it works out. We could all use a lesson from john up there not to judge.

I am judgemental. This is a fact of her life. She knows that her past is creating havoc in her relationships, but there is nothing she can do and she knows, but cannot accept it.

@john65pennington jeez.

I don’t really think that the best way to get someone on the right path is to tell them how crappy they are. That doesn’t sound like a personality flaw, or a dating flaw, it sounds like a dependency issue, and clearly her self esteem is not at an all time high. You don’t know what her future holds.

Yes. He says he wants a long-term relationship, but is terrified of any kind of intimacy and/or commitment on his part and will refuse to do his part to put himself emotionally out there and work on things (thus sabotaging any chance of actually getting what he says he wants). And I don’t mean, isn’t ready to get married, I mean, is under the impression that spending time learning about something your partner is interested in and passionate about (and you aren’t) is going above and beyond instead of just a basic part of being in a relationship.

I would tell him, but only if he asked, point blank. Complaining about how he can’t seem to get past the first few dates isn’t asking, and until he explicitly states that he wants my opinion on the matter, it isn’t my place to voice it. Same thing goes for other people.

Nikipedia, I have know this girl, since she was six years old. We sat and watched her ruin her life day after day. She has come to us with her problems many times and we treat her like our own daughter.

This is not minding my own business, she comes to us and we tell her the truth.

After you tell a person for 32 years that she has a drug habit and may face having her children taken away, you would think this would change their mind. Not happend yet.

She lives with her parents and they are just about crazy.

@john65pennington I hope you don’t have a daughter then because that’s not how you should treat yours.

I do have a daughter and she grew up with my neighbor. My daughter is not a drug addict and is a Registered Nurse. What made them go down to different highways? I do not know.

“She knows that her past is creating havoc in her relationships, but there is nothing she can do and she knows, but cannot accept it.”

There is nothing she can do…. but cannot accept it. Really? Really??

@john65pennington: Has it ever occurred to you that maybe one of the reasons why this girl has terrible relationships is because one of her father figures constantly tells her she’s a failure who can’t escape her past?

Ok, lets not badger the retired cop. You asked the question and I gave my answer, which is honest and true.

This makes me want to give my father a hug.

@Aethelflaed I feel the same way, and I’m not counting the “what am I doing wrongs?” as asking for my opinion, either.

Dont you know you’re supposed to validate and approve of everyone’s situation @john65pennington, no matter how they’ve refused to learn the lessons that life teaches them, or that you warned them about? Just tell her that everything’s gonna be alright as soon as she makes the same mistakes again. That’s what she really needs to hear.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I don’t think anyone said that.

“Accept no buttered-toast substitutes!”

@ANef_is_Enuf Me neither. It’s sort of like the “do these pants make me look fat” question; you have to be able to tell the difference between when people are asking rhetorically, just looking for a quick “of course not” (or in this case, “I just don’t know” or a simple shrug), and a genuine “please, let me know so that I don’t make an avoidable error”.

@Aethelflaed yes, exactly. Good comparison.

XD

I have friends who want to get married, and they do have long term relationships, but in my opinion they go after the wrong men. The three women that come to mind all focus a lot on body type. The guy has to be muscular.

I know one women who is single, has had some relationships, but has been alone for a while now. She used to say she really wanted to get married back in her late 20’s early 30’s, but now she is in her early 40’s and I’m not sure what she wants. I think maybe she has decided she likes not having to answer to anyone as a way of feeling better about being single. She can be a difficult person in general, it is not just with men. She also is incredibly funny, looks young for her age, very smart. If she could relax more she would be a great person to be married to.

Then of course I know single women who truly love being single, seem completely happy single, and I think it is just fine. I don’t think they have any specific negative quality.

As a PS note: Yes, I have been a father figure to her. She also has a real father that tells her the identical same thing as here. We paid for her to go to Cosmotology School. She graduated and can only hold a job for a very short time. Its her past.

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

Sorry guys if you did not like my answers. Sometimes, the truth hurts.

@john65pennington Cosmetology. And I thought you said her parents are crazy.

Simeone, give me a break. It’s Christmas.

@john65pennington Take your own advice and use it next time with your friend.

I was going to answer but I see this is let’s beat up on @john65pennington for being honest. I’ll pass. sigh

@jonsblond I didn’t know we can let comments slide that are offensive as long as they’re honest…because I can be honest, trust me. And so what if the majority does disagree what what a user says? what if someone was bashing mothers (as they often do) and you and I and a bunch of other moms responded? Would that mean we’re ‘bashing’ that other member and that we should shut up because honesty trumps integrity?

I get it, if BOTH her daddies tell her she’s a failure, she’s sure to change her act…

@Simone_De_Beauvoir you made it personal towards him. He never made a personal attacke towards you. I’m out.

@jonsblond I take the comment about his friend personally. As should every other woman..(yes I will align myself with women for this question) You can be out but perhaps before you go, you can actually answer the question? No? So just some kind of ‘I’m going to go in there and stand up for him, look at all them bitches saying shit against someone I like..’? Awesome. Much appreciated.

Clearly this was a more lighthearted question than that. I highly doubt that this woman doesn’t recognize the problems in her life. Struggling with dependency and being reminded of a past that some, or many, people might not approve of… is not in the same vein as someone who goes on a date, tells someone they love them, and then wonders why they left.

You don’t have to coddle anyone, but focusing on someone’s failures isn’t okay. If one comment out of that entire discussion was a personal attack, I don’t see how the whole thing is “attacking” one person. Since when it is not okay to disagree around here?

Withdrawn, because I believe I found the answer.

It has been a long-ass time since I participated in one of these threads. Oh, fluther, how you boil my blood. ;)

@john65pennington One of my best friends in the world spent several years working as a night club dancer stripper. She dated one person throughout all that time, never got hooked on illegal drugs, never found herself to be pregnant, and never had her job interfere in her relationship. So no, it is not “needless to say” that this happened to the woman you know. It is the assumption that these things somehow follow from her job that I find objectionable with regard to your response.

I suppose I would also take issue with the notion that “decent guys” do not want “used goods.” Leaving aside the ridiculousness of calling a person “used goods,” it seems to me that any guy who had a good claim to being called “decent” would not be so hung up on a woman’s past. Maybe she needs to change something in her life. I’m not saying otherwise. But that doesn’t make your response without flaws.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies It is possible to give someone advice without being judgmental. If all someone hears is “you’re a whore, and men don’t like whores,” it’s not going to help (note: this is an example only; I’m not saying anyone has actually said such a thing).

Easy guys. The last time I got snarky I pissed off some good friends.

@Adirondackwannabe Good thing he and I aren’t friends, then.

Only pedophiles like unused goods!
^
<————- just his honest opinion. ;-)

@SavoirFaire: Best answer so far. :)

@Incoherency_ Wooooow O_O I’m going to feel guilty, but laugh anyway. Lol.

Yeah, I know some people like that, but I have my own relationship problems, so I don’t really say anything.

I’m single and feel complete….

and I get alot of crap from my family. You need 1000 attaboys to every one negative thing you hear. frankly, it wears you out and squashes your dreams. No self-esteem here. I dont blame, but dang, I think we are here to help each other on this earth, not take the heart out of people.

There are a ton of married folks, who I dont know how they have lasted, or have settled.

@jazmina88: My mom is also single and complete. She made the decision to never get married and she’s happy as a clam. Good for you for knowing what you want!

@jazmina88 I agree. I know lots of single people who are happy, and I know lots of married people who are quite unhappy. Life is not one-size-fits-all, that’s for sure.

@jazmina88 Why do you say no self esteem? You mean your family sabotages your self esteem?

Yes, totally dysfunctional family. Alot of holier than and hypocrasy. My great nephew was about to be homeless and I brought him here, while the folks were giving me hell. Why didnt they give him a place there, instead of just saying how rotten he was??
He’s not a bad kid. We all need love.

I also found my soul mate early in life….and thou true, not meant to be this time round.

I see whats going on here. It’s a debate. From all that I gather after a long ass hiatus here on the fluther is that fluther still hates debates. No one likes to be told they are disagreed with but without it we are all just stroking each other off. Plenty of times I will play devils advocate just to fuel something so that it keeps going.
Look at how many people have left Fluther in the past year. They leave because they do not like being ganged up on. The man is being honest, give him some credit and stop trying to change his mind.
I seriously lurve most of the folks here and it saddens me to hear all of you talk at times and sound so intelligent and then read shit like this. WTF? At this rate, this website will be dead by springtime. Let’s hope that does not happen because I hope to have many disagreeable times with you folks in the future.
xoxoxo

@judochop Maybe you can explain to me what this whole ‘just being honest’ is supposed to mean? Is it supposed to mean (since we’re all basically honest) that we can’t call a person out on their shit? What do you mean by it?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir What is “calling a person on their shit”? He stated his opinon. It is not your opinion, but why do you have to jump him over it? I don’t agree with a lot of the things most people on here say, but I listen and learn.

@chyna I don’t think I ‘jumped all over him’, period. If other people find something problematic, it’s not my doing. And what, pray tell, are we to learn from the usual ‘strippers and whores are garbage…no man will want them’ kind of comments?

Oh, for crying out loud. I’m out.

This is why I don’t come here very often. The ganging up on someone’s opinion. I’m out too.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I just see after a few quips of going back and forth that it reads like a pissing match. I am just as guilty of it. I just hope that he comes back. I read in another thread that he was leaving.

@chyna Don’t worry, she’s out for a different reason.

@judochop What, from today’s conversation? I love how people do this. Just love it. It’s all part of this insanity of fluther. Threats and the such and ‘awww, wish he wouldn’t’s.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir never mind. I am sorry that you are upset. You truly are one of my favorite people on here and I love your answers. You are insanely left wing sometimes and John is insanely right wing sometimes and it ideally makes for an instant reaction from both of you. I hope I am not over stepping any grounds. I am sorry if I am Simone, I really am. My reply was one part selfish anyway. I like the both of you and enjoy reading your quips, I hope that you two stick around and at some point maybe find some common ground to stand together on. That is one of the things I like about this place. Anyway, I will leave it alone. I thought maybe I could help ease the tension of the room up. I hope that my ego did not stand up and complicate the air in here. Viva La Fluther.

@judochop My love, I’m not upset, not even a little bit! Don’t be sorry…I also do not at all think that what he said was ‘right-wing’ and what I said was ‘left-wing’...I don’t know, wish I didn’t react to sexist quips, but I do – it’s just so pervasive, this kind of thinking about women. And then it gets explained by women as ‘honesty’ and it makes me go wtf.

27 year old, female, Mormon virgin. She acts like she’s 12 and guys are so put off by her. She just can’t understand why “boys” don’t like her.

@judochop I don’t get your first response (this one here). First, you acknowledge that there’s a debate going on. Yup. That’s right. I agree. Then you say Fluther hates debates. Don’t know about that. Maybe. Then you say we’re ganging up. Nope. That’s wrong. I disagree.

It’s an open forum. More people happen to disagree with @john65pennington than agree. That’s still a debate. If the accusations that it’s ganging up are any indication, then maybe you’re right that Fluther hates debates. But really, it would only indicate that some people on Fluther hate debates. Because the people making the accusations, instead of actually contributing, are the ones who are trying to stymie debate. That a lot of people disagree with a post and write responses indicating how and why they disagree promotes debate and indicates that the people being accused of ganging up don’t hate debate (and aren’t afraid of debate).

So do you think debate is bad? Because otherwise why would you say we shouldn’t try to change someone’s mind? Because that’s what debate is about. People say why they disagree (not just that they disagree) and try to convince other people. Everyone gets to have their say, and no one’s say is immune to criticism. That seems like a good thing to me.

Debate isn’t bad, but I do wish we’d all remember to disagree without being disagreeable.
I know, I know… I’m like a fucking broken record.

@TypoKnig I think @judochop‘s point was that it’s fine to disagree, and it’s fine to have a debate, even that these are good things… but don’t turn it into a pissing contest. At least, that’s what I got from it.

@augustlan Feel like a mom with a huge herd of arguing kids? See Baby Blues. :)

@augustlan Fine…help me figure it out then: say someone says something like the above and I disagree…there’s no debate…it’s just disagreement…I’m not saying anything in order to get to a compromise…why would I compromise? I mean, it’s not like at some point I’ll be all like “oh you’re right, some sex workers are unworthy of these ‘decent’ men”...you say sex workers are lesser then…I say not..that is not a debate but what would you have me do instead?

@ANef_is_Enuf Oh… maybe. I don’t mean to piss on an attempt to make peace.

I’m going to attempt to steer this question back on track, but I’ll need some help. She’s not built to be crewed by one!

I’ve also known a number of people who complain all the time about being single. They wonder why no one wants to date them when, really, there are a few factors at work. First, they may be throwing out the “I’m angry cuz no one likes me” vibe is just a turn-off on so many levels. Then there’s the fact that many of these people are just unhappy anyway and they think that all their problems will be solved if they have an SO. My favorite is the ones who are so desperate that they settle for the first person who likes them. Have you ever been settled for? It’s horrible! I wouldn’t want to stay with someone who only dated me because they were desperate for an SO.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Not to further derail the thread (sorry Nef!), but I think it’s about tone, and the words we choose to use even while we vehemently disagree. Like you, I completely disagree with @john65pennington‘s view, but I would have said something like, “It’s very demeaning to call this woman ‘used goods’. We’re people, John… not shoes. Furthermore, if a guy is actually decent, why would he care what job she had in the past? I can see how a current drug addiction might be a problem, though.”

@augustlan Well, that’s subjective. I thought my comments were quite toned down from those in my head. :) But thanks for the clarification. And, the things you say in your comment, well…I just assume people need to know those things and can’t just keep saying over and over ‘please remember, women are people’.

No need to apologize to me. I had just as much part in derailing this conversation as anyone else.

If I hadn’t used up all of my questions, I would just steer this discussion to Meta so we can continue to dissect it. Because, frankly, I’m still confused.

@ANef_is_Enuf Confused in what way?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir We should make t-shirts: Women are People.

@augustlan It’d be funny if they wouldn’t actually be made by some women in poverty someplace.

@Aethelflaed in how we are approaching disagreements on Fluther. I may be a relatively new member compared to many, but I’ve been around a while, and I remember a time when things got pretty intense around here. I’m not saying that is preferable, but something has clearly shifted. We have had multiple discussions about bullying, and ganging up, and debates in general, and being too friendly as a community or not friendly enough.
I don’t know up from down anymore.

I feel like there is no happy medium. We have hostile, explosive fights that devolve to name-calling and flaming, or someone openly disagrees and it is perceived as an attack. I know, for certain, that in this instance I was definitely not attacking anyone. In fact, the arguments against what was said were all posted at almost the exact same time. We all had the same reaction. So, because multiple people are upset by something that is said, or because more than one jelly openly disagrees with one person… that is ganging up? Where do we draw the line? When it is simply: what was said was probably enough to piss more than one person off?
We can disagree nicely, but I’ve seen it on several occasions where there is little or no flaming, little or no “disagreeing without being disagreeable” and it is still considered to be “bullying” or “ganging up.”

Are we supposed to designate one person to argue against statements that we disagree with, just so that no one’s feelings are hurt? Where exactly are we drawing the line, because this whole community seems torn.

Sorry @KatawaGrey, I tried to hold it in. :X I love you back, for what it’s worth.

@ANef_is_Enuf I totally get that, too. I don’t like to see accusations of ‘ganging up’ just because multiple people disagree. Fluther is pretty much about debate.

@augustlan that’s what I thought, anyhow. I don’t think I’m a troublemaker, I don’t think most of us are (maybe some, but not most), but I don’t want to make kissy faces all day if someone says something that I disagree with, let alone find appalling, but much like @judochop pointed out, I don’t want to see more people leave. I guess that’s that. Blah.

Sheesh, I made a mess. :\

No, your question was totally fine.

A storm’s a brewing. Time to abandon ship…

It’s okay @ANef_is_Enuf. I can forgive you this time. ;)

@ANef_is_Enuf, I have known a number of women and men over the years who have fallen into this pattern. As to sharing my opinion, not unless asked. One of my friends (who so wanted to be in a relationship and now is) is with this guy that I really don’t get a good vibe from. Things she has said suggest she is ‘settling’ rather than being alone, but unless she asks me for my input, I don’t offer it. She isn’t a fool. I am pretty sure she knows what she is doing and if it all falls down, I want to be there as her friend to help pick up the pieces.

@john65pennington I cannot fathom why you have been misrepresented so unfairly in this thread. I’m astonished how words you never spoke have been put in your mouth and associated somehow with your feelings on the subject. How is it that people can be so shortsighted, jumping to conclusions about someone they do not know, vs someone you’ve seen grow up and known for 32 years and cared enough about to help pay for her education.
_________

@Simone_De_Beauvoir ”...those same ‘decent’ guys used the goods…”

He never said that and you don’g know enough about it, or her, to comment without asking more questions first. You put words in his mouth and started this whole shit storm against @john65pennington.

He said, “decent guys do not want “used goods”.” He didn’t say her three divorces and many dates were with “decent guys”. You said it @Simone_De_Beauvoir. Not @john65pennington… YOU said it @Simone_De_Beauvoir. Do you know this girl? Do you know the story behind her divorces and drug habit? If you don’t know her, then ask more questions about her before commenting on what type of guys she’s dated.

Fact is, “decent” guys DON’T look for drug addicts. Drug addicts look for drug addicts. Perhaps you qualify that as decent behavior. I don’t.

Like @KatawaGrey says, ”... perhaps she picks the wrong guys…”

Perhaps that’s because drug addict strippers are exposed to the wrong guys. Perhaps that’s because drug addict strippers are given a lot of attention by the wrong guys. Perhaps @Simone_De_Beauvoir feels like your “wrong guys” are the same thing as her “decent” guys. I’ll let the two of you work that out on your own.

@KatawaGrey ”...not everyone is as judgmental as you!”

Sharing his story about someone he cares about is not being judgemental.

@KatawaGrey ”...because one of her father figures constantly tells her she’s a failure who can’t escape her past”

@KatawaGrey ”... if BOTH her daddies tell her she’s a failure…”

@ANef_is_Enuf ”...I don’t really think that the best way to get someone on the right path is to tell them how crappy they are. ”

He didn’t. He’s trying to relate to everyone that he tells her that drugs and her life choices are lowering her odds of getting her life together. There is a difference… acknowledge it. Stop putting words in @john65pennington‘s mouth. He never said that “I tell her to her face that she’s a failure”… HE NEVER SAID THAT.

@ANef_is_Enuf ”...You don’t know what her future holds.”

No, but people make pretty good guesses after 32 years of knowing someone to fall into unrewarding patterns. He’s sharing the story of a troubled neighbor that he’s seen self destruct and shows no signs of coming out of it. If we were to bet about the girls future, my money would be on @john65pennington.

@TypoKnig “More people happen to disagree with @john65pennington than agree.”

They’re not disagreeing. They’re misrepresenting @john65pennington. They’re certainly not listening. They’re jumping to conclusions, riding to the defense of someone they do not know, and don’t give a damn rats ass about either… If they did, they’d ask more questions about her rather than gang up on @john65pennington… the guy who watched her grow up and helped pay for her education… only so he could watch as she gets to the point where she “may face having her children taken away”.

@SavoirFaire ”...it seems to me that any guy who had a good claim to being called “decent” would not be so hung up on a woman’s past”

It’s not her past. It’s her present… her now… her right in your face drug habit, losing the kids, dancing for strangers that don’t give a flying fuck about her then, now, or ever in the future. Sure sure, a “decent” guy could just so happen to find himself in her presence and sweep her off her feet… sure sure it could happen. Got any odds on that?

@nikipedia “your neighbor doesn’t want to hear you judge her…Maybe you should mind your own business.”

Maybe he shouldn’t have paid for her beauty school. Maybe he shouldn’t be concerned as a neighbor for the children she might lose. He’s sharing his qualified opinions about her with us here… he never said that he “judge“d her to her face. He did say that she comes to him with her problems. That means she values his opinion… not his judgement.

@SavoirFaire “If all someone hears is “you’re a whore, and men don’t like whores,” it’s not going to help (note: this is an example only; I’m not saying anyone has actually said such a thing).”

You’re right, no one did say such a thing. But after all the vitriol slinging @john65pennington, the comment you make insinuates that that is what he meant, so he practically did say it. He did not, and he never meant to suggest that he did.
_____________

FUCK! I’m so embarrassed for fluther attacking you with so much holier than thou who knows the girl like you do @john65pennington. Reminds me of all the reasons people say they left other forums. I’m really sorry about that. Sounds like you’ve tried to help the girl with time, finance, concern, honesty, patience, to the point where “she comes to us and we tell her the truth.” I’m sorry you are attacked for trying to help her.

So, to the OP, I guess you are not “baffled by their inability to snag a long term partner” Sounds clear enough to me too. Actually, the term “snag” even bothers me… rhymes with “trap” or “snare”, or even “trick”. Oh well, the standards of this Q weren’t very high to begin with. Perhaps that’s why so many felt the need to knee jerk attacking you on the grounds that they know better than you not being “baffled”.

Hey @@john65penniington… thanks for trying to shoot straight with the girl and help her out. Not everyone does that. You’re a good neighbor and I’m honored to know there are people like you in the world who give a damn about their neighbors.

@judochop “It’s a debate.”

It’s not a debate. It’s a bunch of people more concerned with attacking @john65pennington, putting words in his mouth, jumping to conclusions. It’s certainly not a “debate” where both sides of an argument are made clear. No one but john is capable of even talking about the girl in question. These attacks are against ghosts that are invented against @john65pennington, just so the attackers can have something to argue about.

‘So, to the OP, I guess you are not “baffled by their inability to snag a long term partner” Sounds clear enough to me too. Actually, the term “snag” even bothers me… rhymes with “trap” or “snare”, or even “trick”. Oh well, the standards of this Q weren’t very high to begin with. Perhaps that’s why so many felt the need to knee jerk attacking you on the grounds that they know better than you not being “baffled”.’

I’m not even sure that what you wrote makes sense, but I never said anything about me being baffled. If you read the question, I was asking about people who are single.. and unhappy about being single, and would like a long term relationship. Not people that are happy being single, not people that don’t want relationships, not people who have clear problems that need to be dealt with before a relationship can be nurtured. People that repeat the same mistakes when dating someone without ever realizing that they’re doing it, this was a question about socializing and missing social cues, not significant life issues that need to be addressed. I think I was pretty clear in my original question.
No, I’m not baffled as to why John’s neighbor is having relationship issues, it sounds like she has plenty of issues. In fact, I’m sure she is quite aware of the fact that she has a lot on her plate… which means that his answer wasn’t actually an answer to my question in the first place.

Ok

I do not necessarily agree with John, but I consider where he lives, his age and his job when I read his replies. I have not lived his life and don’t take any offense from his perspective because when he shares his views, he’s coming from his own life experiences and I think that needs to be respected, even if disagreed with.

There’s probably way more going on with this young lady than just her receiving criticism.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies She is a former stripper, with a current drug problem. While I agree that the drug problem is likely a huge factor in her unsuccessful relationships, John has focused on her former job. He also called her “used goods”. That’s what people are reacting to.

That’s correct, for me, anyhow. Calling a person ‘used goods’ and suggesting that her past… which seemed to be his focus… would prevent her from having a happy future was something I felt I had to disagree with.
I can reread everything he said and take it literally, while still taking into consideration that he has done a lot to help this woman, but I am still never going to be okay with a good portion of what he said. If he didn’t mean it that way, well, then perhaps he wishes to clarify if he comes back on and sees this post. If not, I don’t see the problem. I have no hard feelings toward John, I like John. I disagreed with him in this thread, and strongly, but I don’t have any issues with him or anyone else that participated in this discussion. I can only speak for myself.

The point was missed.

The “stripper” doesn’t matter. What matters is the leverage that played on peering with “decent” guys. What type of crowd did it source her with? At 38, I wonder if “former” stripper is by choice, or default. I wonder if she would still be doing it if there was an audience for her age group… or an audience for the look drugs can take their toll on, in the midst of new girls competing against her, possibly hoping to find a “decent” guy in the crowd for themselves one night.

Look, I was having trouble with one of my children a few years back. I didn’t like the type of person he was becoming. I didn’t understand where the rudeness was coming from.

In speaking with a wise and trusted elder, he advised me that my son would mimic the behavior of his peer group. A short investigation confirmed my son had made friends with an unruly crowd. He was becoming just like the people he surrounded himself with.

That’s all I’m saying. Being a stripper is fine. But one must be accountable to the environments they put themselves in. Their standards will conform to the peer group they associate with. It doesn’t mean a stripper can’t find happiness, or a decent guy… But one must ask if it increases the odds, or lowers them. And that’s all @john65pennington was suggesting… that her life choices may be lowering the odds against her. And I really don’t think he was calling her “used goods” as much as he was trying to relate the way that men who hook up with drug addict stripper view them as “used goods”... as in something they can treat like a piece of trash. Why would @john65pennington be trying to help her if that’s how he felt about her. He’s trying to warn her against others who base their easy pickings of women by that standard.

No one is trying to help this girl except @john65pennington.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Good point.

I’ve found that to be true with my students and my own kids, that they do mimic their peers and peer groups are really hard to change even if someone’s self-aware. If they’re not self-aware, I wonder what the odds are that they’d willingly give up something as intimate as their peer group.

People we care about deserve our attention to their life choices and the consequences they manifest.

I colleague of mine thinks that the way to make a guy love her is to sleep with them within the first 24 hours of meeting (that is not an exaggeration!). She has slept with hundreds of guys and yet she can never understand why they don’t contact her again afterwards. She has cried on my shoulder many times about men only wanting her for one thing and yet, she always gives it to them. I have tried telling her that if you don’t give it away so soon she is more likely to attract a different class of person but she can’t seem to get out of that routine of meeting a guy in a club and sleeping with him that night.

I have another friend who split up with her (fairly) long term boyfriend about 3 years ago. The problem is, she believes that this ex boyfriend was perfect even though she knows he cheated on her and she compares everyone else she dates with him to their face. She then wonders why they don’t want to stick around. I remember she was complaining to someone she was dating (and who was treating her very well indeed) about how no one knew her like her ex boyfriend did and the guy she was dating just turned around and said “if he was so perfect, where the fuck is he now?” She hasn’t seen him since.

I think @john65pennington was only saying that her history continues. I’m glad @RealEyesRealizeRealLies defended @john65pennington I feel he was unfairly attacked also. His choice of words were not good, used goods is upsetting to me too, but probably many men, and even women, think like he does. I don’t think anyone should have been so offended nor argumentative. The neighbors history, and continued behavior, probably does affect her relationships. There is probably a good chance she isn’t picking the right guys either. If the neighbor is unaware of how destructive her drug habit is, and that the circles she runs in make it more likely her relationships won’t last, then it seems this example does fit the original question posted.

I think of this woman straughtened out @john65pennington would be the first one to leave her past in the past. He paid for her Cosmetology school, obviously he believes in second chances, and that people can change.

Wait… is everyone else being ganged up on now? Do we get to cry foul this time?

@augustlan – Hey! At least I stayed out of the flame war this time (I had to slap my hand a few times, though). Do I get brownie points for that? :-p

Yay, a flame war and I was one of the reasonable ones.

@Adirondackwannabe – I, also, was always one of the reasonable ones as well. I clearly remember, more than once, someone flamed me for being impartial and asking for verifiable facts and not taking the “obviously correct” side; I flamed back and well…......

@HungryGuy I have been right in the middle of some wild ones. I have a temper too, so it’s amazed me I haven’t been asked to take a break from fluther.

Wow. I had a rather interesting and cogent discussing point on this question (as it was written) all ready to post. Never mind.

oh boy….le sigh what the fuck?

Important Fluther side note 101:

Before chiming in on a quip that is more than an hour old, make sure you are reading all quips before recapping and singling everyone out.

I know a few and I love them to bits but unless they were to ask me directly, I’d not share my observations of behaviors I think are adding to their “issues”.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir “I didn’t put words into anyone’s mouth, the words were said by someone other than me.”

@Simone_De_Beauvoir ”...those same ‘decent’ guys used the goods…”

Did you or did you not say that? What do you know about “those” guys she dated and divorced? Are you speaking from a position of knowledge, or from a position of fanning flame?

Thanks dad~.

You know, this has really been a good debate and believe it or not, I understand most of the peoples opinions given here.

Being a cop for 44 years, I have been in a gun battle, shot at, knifed at, kicked, hit, spit on, and bit by human beings. And, I survived it all.

Words can sometimes do more damage than being shot. Personally, I am use to being called every name in the book. Again, I survived it.

Sometimes, you have to be in a given situation with all the facts, before you make a judgement.

Irregardless in this particular situation, I want to wish everyone a Merry Christmas. jp

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies That sentence was not about any particular people which is why it applies regardless of the situation. If there are these ‘decent men’ out there that people think don’t want sex workers, it is almost always true that they themselves have utilized sex worker services. In fact, it tends to be, just like with homophobes, that men who sneer at sex workers…buy their services…men who are very homophobic…purchase services of gay men.

Yes! I have a friend that is attractive and goes on a lot of dates, but hasn’t had a long term relationship for probably 10 years. I have hinted at suggestions for her, but would never come out and tell her directly because I know that would be the end of the relationship.

My advice to her would be to let the men do a little bit of the work. Not “play hard to get,” but she is often the one to ask a guy out and then ask them on a second date. In my mind, I think most men will say yes to a date because there is the possiblity of sex, espcially if the girl is asking him out. If a guy likes you, he will ask you out, no need for you to ask him or to call him to see if he wants a second date. If he doesn’t call, well, he just wasn’t that into you.

Personally I think that many relationships start for the wrong reasons. Usually one person will try too hard to win the other over and when people smell desperation they take full advantage of this. Personally I do know people like this but I better not mention them here.

What I do think is important is that there is a real connection and it is very important for both parties to reciprocate each others efforts. I also think that sometimes people have too high of expectations of others. Following dogmatic dating rules doesn’t help either and I don’t think it really matters who makes the first move but what is important is to back off and let the other person make an effort.

Relationships need to be built on more than just biological mechanics. Also, if you’re not happy with yourself as an individual than all bets are off in making any potential relationship longterm with any meaning to it. How can you be happy with another person if you’re not even happy with yourself?

I have known people like that. I found them to be quite desperate, but I am aware that they all may have changed since.

At least one guy I’ve met personally wanted to know why girls didn’t want to date him when he was having trouble finding a girlfriend and I was upfront about his desperation. He saw where I was coming from and agreed. It may have taken him a while to do so, but he saw the light.

I don’t remember him complaining to me about not being able to find a girlfriend in a really long time now. Now his complaints seem to be more about how he’s always working and doesn’t have much time for his friends anymore because of it.

[Mod says] Can we all stay on topic please. I know this is social but focus on the question and keep the discussion civil. Thanks.

@ANef_is_Enuf I hope you’re ashamed of yourself for asking such a blatantly flame baiting question.
Sorry B. Couldn’t resist.. Neffie is just a troublemaker.

I am. It’s true.

I certainly do.

Oh my gosh, yes!!! I have a “friend” who has been single for years. She always gets dates but after 2–3 months it always falls apart or they disappear. She thinks THEY’RE the issue, not her. She’s pretty conceited and kind of a snob….