Should incest between consenting adults be prosecuted?

I say, no.

I don’t think so, but this doesn’t mean I agree with it whole-heartedly. Having children is the main reason I think it’s a bad idea, but other than that, do what you want.

If it’s right, then why is it condemned by 99% of people who live on this planet? Even most animals don’t exhibit such behavior. I’m not trying to insult anybody here, but I’m just raising this point…

I guess I see it in the same way I see homosexuality—It’s not my thing, I don’t completely “get it,” but it’s none of my business (or the state’s) what consenting adults do behind closed doors. Hell, I like bald vaginas, and maybe that makes me a weirdo (it’s certainly not natural—but neither is shaving your legs); I don’t want other people judging me for that. To each their own.

I think the idea behind incest laws is mostly to protect minors from a particularly horrific type of abuse. I would argue that a child being raped by her mother/father is worse than by a stranger (because a child in such a situation really has nobody else to turn for comfort). I think this is why it’s punished as an additional offense (or more severe offense), and this is for good reason. In the case of two consenting adults, I really don’t see where the abuse is happening, it’s just “unusual sex,” which by-itself shouldn’t be anyone’s business if nobody is getting hurt.

No, it’s not the state’s business to regulate what consenting adults do in the bedroom.

They may be consenting but it doesn’t mean they are not both sick individuals with some serious psychological issues.

No, I don’t think the state/government should interfere with consensual sexuality, but, doesn’t mean it is healthy, which it is not.

Lets just say that both had been “fixed”, but for some reason, she became pregnant.

Where does this leave them now?

What if their baby was born with a psychological or physical ailment? Would this be fair to the baby?

After considering all the above, I say NO. Leave the law as it is written and enforce it.

Yes, it should. It is not a good thing.

I cant help but think the daughter was somehow manipulated through all this. Yea she is consenting but I just sense years of psychological manipulation. Then again, I’m quite cynical

This is why legalizing, “Homosexuality” (the right to marry) falls somewhere between a slippery slope and an ice sled atop the Himalaya’s. If legalizing gay falls under “equality for all” incest should fall under that as well. This is very very tricky. But I suppose gays will be long accepted before 3000 years pass by before society accepts incest. I predict a future where life might just be strictly about a work force highly subjected to the sciences.

@uberbatman That’s true. We have no idea how many times the line, “You’ve got your mother’s eyes” may have been used. And whether or not the daughter actually has a psychological dysfunction where she is easily flattered but somehow it wasn’t until her father said stuff that she was attracted in this way.

@city_data_forum Is there a link/source to this story?

religion is psychological manipulation, yet they are allowed to marry, too

@ragingloli Non believers go through psychological manipulation, yet they are allowed to marry, too.

You know, you can criminalize and persecute child abuse, if that’s the concern. I doubt very much this particular father/daughter couple didn’t have some abuse, but it’s the abuse when she was a minor that’s concerning for me, not that they eventually had sex. Criminalizing insect also means that if your father has an unknown “love child” a few states over, and when you’re 40 and single, the two of you meet up and fall in love without knowing you’re siblings, that’s illegal too.

@Aethelflaed However is that the exact case in this particular story?

@whitetigress Why the automatic correlation between gay marriage and legal incest? “Legalizing gay”, as you call it, has nothing to do with anything except that same sex couples having the same rights as heterosexual couples. Would you have also cried “slippery slope” when interracial marriages were legalized? Would you have governments enforce the many sodomy laws currently on the books, in spite of recent studies that show that something like 50% of heterosexual women are taking it up the butt?

Personally, I find the whole issue of incest seriously squidgy, but I’m not sure I’m comfortable with government legislation on the issue, either. I’m not sure how I’d lean on that one.

@whitetigress How is what the exact case in this particular story?

I’d like to see the actual case history, documented.

According to your anecdote, the daughter started a relationship with her father when she was, at best, 20 years old. I would disapprove of any 40 year old having a sexual relationship with a young woman, barely out of her sophomore year in college.

Her being “drop-dead gorgeous” is irrelevant and unnecessary to the story and its implications.

The laws are on the books to protect the general population; I cannot believe that this girl will not pay a high price emotionally, if she has not already.

If you buck the mores of the community, when they are reasonable, you will carry a psychological burden of guilt and fear.

@syz You can’t paint me as the bad guy here. I believe in the right for same sex couples, don’t get it twisted. The point is, “incest” couples can claim the same right as “equality for all” which is the main push that the gay community is using. I see no reason why “incest” couples wouldn’t be allowed to use that as well to help their cause. So please stop your babbling and prejudice against my views. I’m merely attacking the black and white quality of the subject, thank you :)

@Aethelflaed I haven’t read the story for myself, just the one on this post. But in your argument aren’t you claiming it would be a crime if the father “did not know” she was his daughter? I think in this case the daughter and father acknowledge they know who they are in correlations to biological relationship. So I don’t get your post?

So please stop your babbling and prejudice against my views. I’m merely attacking the black and white quality of the subject, thank you :)

How interesting. I’ve never been accused of “babbling” before. Deteriorating to personal attacks already?

Gay marriage is not “equality for all”. That’s the same argument that says you might as well legalize marriage to your dog. It’s bunk.

@syz: (Or bark.)

I’m not sure. I agree with @gorillapaws but I also agree with @uberbatman. I have a feeling the couple doesn’t exist, but is something you made up for discussion judging by your other postings, and it’s interesting, but…...................

@syz Oh. I’m sorry, I only live in California and have many close gay friends and a lesbian boss who have discussed the situation with me thoroughly in correlation to the HRC. Please forgive me. And the HRC has nothing to do with marrying your dog.

@whitetigress No, I’m saying that a law that outlaws incest doesn’t just outlaw this particular story, with the father and daughter, but all the other possible incestuous relationships, including the example I gave in my post. Story A and Story B are totally separate stories, linked by a common theme of incest.

@halabihazem , Actually, animals DO practice incest on a regular basis. This is why you have to separate mother pets from their male young as soon as they stop nursing and you need to get them fixed. We had a barn cat that got pregnant many times from her sons. Animals don’t really seem to know or care about incest. Sorry.

As for humans, the ancient egyptians required incest of the Phaerohs. They wanted to keep the royal blood line pure.

I think incest is icky.. but it’s not totally taboo in the human realm and goes unnoticed in the animal world.

@Aethelflaed I see. Well that’s interesting. I wonder if in this particularly, “sourceless story” if a team backed up by other relatives could prosecute the father on behalf of the daughter on claims of manipulations even without the daughters consent? Or that would be personal private obstruction?

@whitetigress If you can prove he abused her as a child, you can persecute that so long as it isn’t outside the statute of limitations. If she’s not actually consenting now, that’s called rape and it’s illegal, regardless of if they’re kin or not.

I think consenting adults should be able to do whatever they like. It is not my place to say their decisions are wrong.

@Mariah Like assemble an atomic bomb, in bed?

@everephebe Is “enriched yellow-cake uranium” the new euphemism for the female genitals?

@everephebe If they then use that bomb they are affecting people who haven’t consented, so that doesn’t apply. :P

@keobooks Strange, because I have a dog who’s one year old human years. His mother was “in heat” and ready to mate or whatever. (That scent was being released) and the young dog was whining and wanted to mate with her. The mother ALWAYS “rough housed” the young dog and bit away and barked and walked away.

@city_data_forum I’ll be following this question until we receive the source/link. Until then I’ll accept this is fictional.

@Mariah No just for fun and maybe to sell it later… to a fascist dictator… Because that’s always hot. My point was, “Really? Whatever, like cannibalism or murder or whatever, really?” :p
@Aethelflaed “Pat-a-cake, pat-a-cake, baker’s man.”

@everephebe Is that a missile in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me :)

@Aethelflaed Just happy to see you. Besides a thermonuclear missile wouldn’t fit in these pants, they’re pretty tight. :D
@Mariah ⇩ Fair enough, just ☑ing.

@everephebe Cannibalism – if everyone involved consents, who’s being harmed? A murder in which the ‘victim’ consents would be basically an assisted suicide, which I also think should be allowed. Yes, really, everything.

I forgot to add that the hypothesis in your postings have a similarity, in that they inflame and at the same time excite, except for us tired elderly ; )

@whitetigress We have two barn cats. A male that is 3 years old and a female (its offspring) that is 6 months old. We witnessed them having sex in our driveway just two days ago. They went at it for a good 3 minutes with no fuss. It happens.

Should incest be prosecuted? I don’t think about it enough (actually, at all) to have an opinion about it. The whole idea of a man having sex with his daughter kind of grosses me out. I’ll be honest. It’s not my business though what they do in their own bedroom if both are of age and consenting.

I was listening to this story on NPR the other day about sperm donations being overused. There are people out there who have discovered that they have over three HUNDRED half siblings out there. It’s easy to verify—while the identity of the donor remains secret, his sperm is given a unique ID that all people who take sperm donations keep for their records. There are facebook pages out there dedicated to people seeking our their half siblings and creating sort of a family.

The FDA only set regulations on the quality of sperm used—not how often it should be used. People are demanding laws about this as we speak (others say it would make sperm donation too expensive and don’t want these laws passed)

I don’t know what all to say about this, but if you are the product of sperm donation, the odds of accidentally commiting incest is out there—and it’s not as astronomical a chance as you might think.

No, it should not be prosecuted. Keep the government out of our bedrooms. There are laws on the books to protect minors. That is sufficient. As to the possibility of offspring, that’s between the consenting adults to handle (which in the case cited they apparently did). Parents with Huntington’s disease and mothers over 40 are also at risk for producing sick or defective offspring, and we don’t regulate them, nor should we.

@halabihazem “If it’s right, then why is it condemned by 99% of people who live on this planet?” It’s condemned because we humans have created this concept of morality and passed it on to other humans. Sometimes it’s stupid, like the idea that it’s “immoral” to walk around naked in public.

“Even most animals don’t exhibit such behavior.” Of course they do! All the time.

I think it’s just icky, but it shouldn’t be prosecuted.

@whitetigress “Slippery slope” is the name of a logical fallacy. It’s not the sort of thing to base any sort of argument upon.

Yea its a bit bothersome that one can compare the homosexuality argument to one on incest.

@uberbatman Yes, and what about homosexual incest? lol

Society should discourage incest. Incest can reflect the abuse of power in dysfunctional families and it may result in damaged children that require society’s support. We can’t just turn a blind eye to it.

Yeah, I think it should; incest is abnormal and just plain disgusting.

Yes.

The reason why incest is not found among animals is because of medical problems due to matching recessive genes. Given the large number of total genes, there is a good chance that the family is carrying a rare dangerous recessive gene that only causes problems when someone has a pair of them. We all know the dangers of inbreeding.

If precautions are taken to prevent childbirth then I guess it is okay if done by mutual consent. It seems rather yucky to me, but that does not count as a moral argument.

But they DO interbreed @LostInParadise. If a male lion walks up to a three-year-old female in heat, he’s going after her. He isn’t going to stop and say, “Oh. That’s my daughter. That’s just wrong man.”

From this Wiki article on inbreeding:
Island species are often very inbred, as their isolation from the larger group on a mainland allows for natural selection to work upon their population. This type of isolation may result in the formation of race or even speciation…

Obviously animals would run into the same kinds of genetic issues as humans, so that may be why many animals drive off the young of both genders, before they’re ready to breed. But that’s just an instinct. If they ran into them a few years later, there wouldn’t be anything stopping them from mating.

Q: Anyone got some thoughts on this topic?

A: Ewwww.

This story is really awful. Both the daughter and father are emotionally crippled by the death of their mother/wife. They are not together because they found soulmates; they are together because they are both wounded, and are comforting each other in a way that just isn’t right.
It isn’t mental healthy. Both should seek counseling, and stop this immediately.
That all said, I don’t think they should be prosecuted. Their lives are fucked up enough.

It IS ewwww….but is that instinctive or is it because of, as Simone would say, “Social construct”?

the “eww” response is the result of social conditioning, for example the aversion to certain kinds of food that differes wildly between cultures, groups and individuals.
i doubt many in the west would find deep fried tarantula, still beating cobra heart in whiskey, raw frog eggs or rotten shark very appealing

@Dutchess_III I have heard of some science that says that people are rather turned off (sexually) by the people they grow up around. But, that means more that you’re going to be turned off by the adopted brother you grew up with than the biologically related brother you didn’t meet until you were 60. Insect is usually biologically defined, and many of the arguments against it (like considerations for children’s genes) are based on a biological definition. And I can’t remember the source, other than “some website”, so there’s a total possibility this science is complete and total crap on every level.

ALL insects are biologically defined! LOL! :)

Well, being turned off by people they grow up with would also be a social construct….not necessarily a genetic one.

If you take the evolutionary psychology approach (which says that the traits we prefer tend to be traits that are advantageous to us, because natural selection affects our thought processes the same way it affects our bodies), it would make sense to be commonly repelled by incest, since incest often causes birth defects. The thing is that in our day and age we don’t have to only have sex with people who would make good genetic parents to our children, because conception is not always the goal of sex. I think it is good to recognize when our feelings towards things are knee jerk reactions not based on currently applicable logic, and to try to override these knee jerk reactions when we realize they’re not entirely logical. Don’t get me wrong, I still think incest in many situations is really awful, sometimes there’s a power differential between the involved parties, sometimes the people come away with negative psychological consequences, and if someone does accidentally get pregnant, that’s obviously a big problem.

My point being that I don’t think we should prosecute people for something just because we have an instinctual negative reaction to it.

I think I come down on the side of not prosecuting if I have to decide, but it is a difficult decision. Parents have undue influence over their adult children many times.

I don’t understand why anyone would compare this to gay marriage, or some sort of slippery slope.

I was not even thinking about possible genetic abnormalities of children, I immediately only thought about the female daughter possibly being taken advantage of, and the most likely screwed-up-ed-ness in the family on some sort of psychological level.

There was a Q about young women fantastizing about their dads sexually, or young boys about their moms, and almost everyone answered: never. I think it is very abnormal to think about one’s parent that way, and this is before society teaches it as a taboo in my opinion. I don’t think very young people are thinking if something is taboo or not, they just know what seems right, or what never even would occur to them.

From what I understand, geneticists don’t think there is as much harm in the practice as they once did. But I don’t remember where I heard that.

All I can say is that I would like to see more documentation about how harmful incest is before I make any judgment one way or another. If we are saying that genetic harm is out of the question, I’d still like to understand more about the psychological harm that could be involved.

While father-daughter sounds weird and creepy to me, I’m not going to rule out the possibility that it could be a good relationship for the two of them.

Well, if they’re both ”consenting adults”, then no.
I don’t think they should be prosecuted.

@wundayatta Parent creating a baby with their own child has more chance of genetic defect than say first cousins. The baby is still unlikely to have genetic abnormalities, but the rates go up. If they don’t have genetic diseases in general, then there is nothing bad to pass down anyway.

They are both consenting adults, therefore no victim, hence no crime has been committed.

I love how people put homosexuality in quotes as long as it helps their denial more, lol. Anyway, no consenting adults doing anything shouldn’t be prosecuted. Incest taboos exist because patriarchy exists and have nothing to do with the ‘ickiness’ of it all or the ‘genetic issues and think of the children’ of it all – incest taboos were there prior to our knowledge into these matters, scientifically speaking and it wasn’t because it was ‘gross.’ Whatever the reasons, I really don’t get it. I don’t even get how to teach this ‘disgust’ for my kids ‘cause I don’t get it myself.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir But, would you agree that an adult making sexual advances with, or actually having sex with their minor children is a problem?

@JLeslie Minor children aren’t adults and, of course, there are grey areas. I really don’t think interactions between parents or siblings or friends are always platonic, we’re just supposed to say they are. I would have to judge each situation case by case to evaluate it.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Siblings is different to me than a parent and child.

Just to clarify, I didn’t mean to suggest pedophilia is not very different than sexual relations with an adult when I asked the question. I just don’t see how that relationship can change innthat way. What I mean is a parent who never was sexually attracted to their young child changing their view to treating their child as a sexual partner is just very odd to me. I would think the parent always had a sexual attraction of some sort to the child. It could be a bad assumption, but that is what I have in my mind.

@Aethelflaed Are you thinking of the Westermarck effect?

@SavoirFaire That sounds so crazy familiar I’m pretty sure I am! :)

Something I’m thinking about…the guy is 20 years older than her. Just guessing he’s 42 and she’s only 22. I think the father is to blame if some serious emotional fall out comes from this on down the road. He’s responsible, as far as he can be, for his daughter’s well-being. Sounds like he’s putting himself first.

I say yes, if this leads to pregnancy. Otherwise, no.

@mattbrowne Why does pregnancy make a difference?

@JLeslie – Because of the high potential of severe birth defects, for example as a result of a brother and sister having a child. In my opinion a brother and sister should not have a child.

@mattbrowne Would you wait to see if the child was born, alive, to prosecute?

@mattbrowne What if the baby is perfectly normal? The baby has more chance of being normal than not.

It makes me think of the two sisters who competed on Americas Got Talent. From what I remember they and their other two siblings had CF. I find that completely reprehensible. Once one child was born with it, I think the stats are 25% chance that couple children will have it assuming neither parent suffered from the disease (meaning they are each heterzygous for it). A horrible disease, yet they kept having babies.

Well, why create harm on purpose? Many babies of chain-smoking mothers are perfectly normal too, but there’s a severe risk. Some babies are sick or get sick when they get older.

There are millions of wonderful women out there, why does a man have to sleep with his sister and get her pregnant? If he’s really keen on doing it, why not make contraception a high priority? Another solution could be the test tube and preimplantation diagnostics to ensure a viable, healthy embryo.

Would I wait to see if the child was born, alive, to prosecute? I’m not sure when it would be appropriate. It’s difficult ethical questions we are discussing here…

@mattbrowne Well, but maybe they did use protection, and she got pregnant anyway. Or maybe they didn’t use protection, but have an abortion. Or she gets pregnant, but it miscarries or the child is stillborn. In all of those cases, there isn’t a live baby being harmed by genetic defects.

I, personally, wouldn’t want to prosecute incest because of the risk of genetic issues because I also don’t want to prosecute mothers who smoke or drink or do drugs or parents who knowingly are passing on a genetic disease like CF or hemophilia. Plus, as a practical note, there’s just no way for law enforcement to know without investing huge, massive amounts of money into checking the bio-parents of each newborn, and I’d rather spend that money on something else.

I think the genetic risks are greatly over exaggerated. There is a higher risk only if you have genetic disorders in your genes. And people related are more likely to both be carriers of the same genetic disorders. If neither has the disorders, it’s not like the genes go bad and make genetic freaks.

I think you have to be really careful when you think about forbidding people to procreate. I mean, if two siblings have no genetic disorders and are under 35, they have a much lower risk at having a baby with a chromosomal disorder than I do, because I’m 40. So.. should I not be allowed to procreate because of my age?

@keobooks As a side note, do you happen to know how much of the population has some genetic disorder of some kind, be it mental disorders, heart disease, etc? I sure don’t.

@JLeslie As you know, I am a CF carrier. I am really confused as to what your argument is. Are you saying people like me shouldn’t have children? I have a son and a daughter. My daughter is a carrier.

People with full blown CF can live into their late 20s these days. Should they not be allowed to live? Do they have nothing to offer the rest of humanity? How do you make these choices?

And on the larger issue—with respect to any genetic mutation that perhaps will be seen more often if the parents are closely related—who are you to say this is a life that should not be lived? What gives anyone or any group of people the right to say other lives should not happen? How the hell can you know what another person’s value may be? Is there some objective scale for measuring a human life somewhere? Is it in your head? Where’d you get it from?

That kind of attitude is highly offensive and is based on eugenics and the false thought than any of us can know what is best for another person. Stick to yourself, bud. You can be an authority there. You know nothing about anyone else. Just let other people make their own choices. If you don’t, you’re ending up running a prison planet.

@wundayatta I definitely get your point but I do think it’s a tricky issue. Everyone has the right to procreate of course, but shouldn’t people think twice if their genes make it likely that they will create a life who will experience a lot of suffering? “Who are you to say this is a life that should not be lived” – a fair point, definitely, but also…. who is anyone to say that a life of suffering is one that should be endured? To me it is in a similar vein to trying not to get pregnant if you are not in a good financial state to support the child. I feel I would only want to try and create life when it can be a good life. But I wouldn’t impose that belief on anyone else.

@wundayatta I did not know you are a carrier. The way I understand it, you have to be homozygous for the mutation (both parents) to actually have CF. All I would hope is your wife was tested for the gene. If she doesn’t have the mutation I have no qualms about you having children and possibly passing down the gene to your children. Since the siblings I spoke of actually have CF, that means both parents were carriers, and risk passing the actual disease, not just the genetic mutation, onto their children. I don’t think I could do it. I don’t think I could knowingly bring a CF child into the world. I am not saying parents who do should be prosecuted or prevented from doing it, that was my point in my argument to @mattbrowne that many many parents risk bringing children into this world with genetic mutations, that did not seem like a good enough reason to prosecute the incestual couple to me.

@JLeslie I’m not sure about the genetics of it, since during the course of my life I have been listed first as a carrier, and second and having the disease, since I have a physical difference as a result of it—the difference that made it impossible for me to have biological children without an operation to harvest sperm (since I don’t have the plumbing necessary to deliver sperm where it needs to go).

Whether you count me as having CF (and I don’t know what the current medical opinion is) or not, if I were to attempt to create a new life with a woman who also has the Delta F508 mutation, then there would be a pretty good chance (25%, I think) that we would have a child with full blown, classical CF—lung problems and all.

My wife doesn’t have the mutation, so that wasn’t an issue, but even if she had, the only way we could have children was through IVF. IVF allows you to test embryos before replacing them, and thus you would not need to replace any embryos that had full blown CF.

But I no longer have the same attitude I used to have about suffering and the value of lives that many of us might call disabled or substandard. I no longer believe it takes money to have a decent life, even though I am fortunate enough to be well off. I no longer believe I know what a “decent” life is. There is a good chance that people would have looked at my genetic structure, seen the genes for CF and bipolar disorder and said, “Nope. This one has no chance of a decent life.”

I beg to differ. Mutations are differences, but they are not wrong and I don’t think it is helpful to label them as “bad.” Nature experiments. Humans have learned from nature that we experiment for a reason. We can not prejudge the results of the experiment because there is no way to predict them.

@Mariah As to suffering… I have no idea how to judge. Who is to say how much suffering is too much? There is only one person who can say, in my opinion, and that is the person themselves, and even then, I don’t know how many would really, truly wish they had never lived. In any case, we can’t know in advance. Only the person can make that decision for themselves.

We may think we are being empathetic and caring when we try to make the choice to prevent a life of suffering. But I think that’s bullshit. If I want to prevent a life of suffering, it’s not for that person’s suffering, it’s because I don’t want to deal with it. I don’t want to be responsible for the child. It’s going to take too much out of me. Let’s be honest here. And I don’t have a problem with that. I don’t want a child with CF because I don’t want to put myself through that. If I had one, I’d deal with it and try to make my child’s life as fulfilling as I could. But I’d rather not have to deal with it.

I think that’s a perfectly legitimate choice to make. I think that’s why people have abortions. They don’t want to cramp their own lives. It’s not really for the child. The child doesn’t exist. I’ve participated in a choice like that. But let’s not say it’s on the behalf of the child because we have no idea and can have no idea what that child might do or feel.

My own experience is that I am grateful for every moment of life I have. And I have been in such suffering that I did not want my life to go on. I live with the knowledge that kind of depression could come back. It makes every non-depressed moment I have that much more precious.

In a way, I guess I can count myself as a “survivor,” the way cancer survivors emphasize their success at staying alive. I’ve never really thought of myself that way because this stuff—bipolar disorder, a near-miss with CF—happen in a much less dramatic way than cancer occurs. I didn’t know I was in a fight for my life. And really, whom among us does know? Yet aren’t we always in a constant fight for our lives?

I’m unwilling to make these judgments any more. I’m unwilling to tell people, even if they are brother and sister or parent and child that they should not procreate due to health reasons. I don’t know enough to be able to predict the future in a way that I would be willing to let myself play God that way.

I’m perfectly happy to suggest there may be psychological problems in such relationships. I’m willing to admit that the idea of such liaisons makes me very squeamish. But that’s a knee-jerk reaction. It’s not a scientific reaction. Scientifically, I just don’t have enough certainty to be able to set the boundaries or make the judgment about what kind of life should never be lived. I can’t do it. And I think all this incest taboo is based purely on gut and really has absolutely nothing to do with science. Even if science could predict the future with such accuracy, the decision is still a judgment based on non-scientific factors. Science can not tell us good and bad. Those are purely human judgments.

@wundayatta I too as I get older see life differently, that there are more areas of grey than black and white when it comes to suffering, human life, quality of life, etc. I am not anywhere on the extreme of controlling genetic outcomes. Some diseases that we know the mutations for can be predicted with pretty close to absolute certainty someone will have the active disease if they are positive for it, some disease it is not possibpe to know if the disease which actually display itself.

If I had a lot of concern for a disease I carry that can be passed down I would take measures for my child not to get it. My husband’s family has thallesemia, I would not do anything to try and control or prevent a child of mine from having that particular genetic disease, but CF can create an incredible amount of suffering, limited abilities, hospital stays, incredible expense (although that is the least of my concern) and predictably short life. However, I guess it is possible to have a very mild form of CF, and then that does create a grey area, I had not realized that. From what I remember something like 90% of men with CF (homozygous) are infertile or have reduced fertility. Women also have reduced fertility. As far as I know heterozygous people do not display the disease traits? Many many people have the gene, something like 1 in 30? Not exactly sure of the stat, of people of European descent are positive for being a carrier. I have a friend married to a person with CF and in the last year he has been in and out of the hospital, it has been awful. They had a child, I have no problem with it.

I was probably too harsh in my first statement on the topic. I apologize for that, it was sloppy, but I do think in a time when we can know some information on genetic diseases it is good to use the knowledge. Basic genetic panels for people who want to get pregnant include, CF, Tay sachs, Huntington’s disease, and others. The siblings I talked about above, the parents did not need genetic testing, once they had their first baby with CF they knew they were carriers. I guess what is tricky is it sucks to have to go through IVF to analyze an embryo, and if someone does not believe in abortion, even if they did not want to bring another CF child into the world, if they want another child, without utilizing IVF, they probably roll dice. I can understand it, I really can.

@wundayatta It’s tricky. I agree, it’s not my place to judge just how much suffering makes a life not worth living. I think a lot of people who have experienced great suffering are still glad they were born. At the same time, I feel (and this is for me only, I don’t mean to say that I pass judgement on anyone else for feeling differently) that if the life would have been worth living, yet I choose not to create it, there’s no real loss. The potential person that didn’t come to be doesn’t know he missed out on anything. To feel a sense of loss every time a potential person doesn’t come into existence would be to mourn every menstrual period and every wasted sperm and it just doesn’t make sense to me. On the other hand, if I create a life that deems itself not worth living, someone has truly suffered and that’s just difficult for me to reconcile. It’s scary, and it’s something I’ll have to consider when it comes time for me to choose whether I want kids. I honestly think it has very little to do with me not wanting to deal with a sick child. That hadn’t even entered my mind. I truly do not want to bring a painful existence into this world.

As for your last paragraph, I agree completely.

@wundayatta Does the discussion in some way make you feel like people are saying certain people should not be alive? That if I say CF children should not be born you should not have been born? That is not where my head is at at all. I had a work colleague years ago who was gay. When his brother had their first child it was born with downs syndrome, and the couple decided to give the baby away to a couple who specifically adopts downs children. My work colleague took it personally, that an “imperfection” in his family is something to be ashamed of and gotten rid of, and he felt his being gay was outside of the norm and could be seen as an imperfection. I couldn’t see how he could compare the two things, but he did, that is how he felt, I don’t take the emotion away from him. He personalized it to mean people might wish he was never born.

Most people abort downs syndrome fetuses when known, something close to 90% are aborted (which means even the evangelical pro-lifers must be doing it). That does not mean in any way they look at someone with downs syndrome and think that person should not be alive or is less of a person or less worthy. I agree with @Mariah there is a huge difference in not letting a life be born, I don’t feel a loss similar to @Mariah. It would be a loss for me in the sense that I had hopes and dreams for that baby, child, of mine, but I don’t feel like the child knows he did not get to live. I use downs syndrome only as an example of a genetic anomaly that people talk about often and comes to mind when people thik amnio. I guess everyone has different genetic mutations that they feel are reasonable or too difficult for their child to deal with throughout his life.

I wonder is there any genetic disease that you would abort a fetus? You seem to beok with having the embryos checked for genetic diseases. If some of the embryos had CF would you have purposely used them for creating a baby or discarded them?

Interesting discussion. If I had a mutant gene which I thought would cause offspring to suffer, I would opt for adoption. Better to help relieve suffering than to cause it.

@JLeslie Something got lost in translation here. Let me try again.

I do not have a problem with parents having an embryo tested, and if that embryo has CF, disposing of it. That is, I don’t have a problem, so long as the parents are doing it because they do not want to be saddled with a difficult child to raise. There is no good to come from forcing parents to have children they don’t want.

My problem is when parents… or anyone says they don’t want the child because they don’t want the child to suffer. They can not know how the child will feel about their life and whether their suffering is too much. To me, this is hypocrisy. Parents should be honest about what they want or don’t want in a child and should own the decision. None of us. No one should act as if they are doing it on the child’s behalf. To me, that is so wrong I can’t even begin to say what it’s about. We are not mind readers. We can not know. When we say it’s for the child, we are pretending we are being altruistic when in fact it is exactly the opposite. We are being totally selfish.

I have no problem with people being selfish. I think that’s a good thing. I have a problem with people pretending their selfishness is altruism by lying about things they can not know (what the child wants). Those people don’t deserve to have children. And anyone who says they are doing something on behalf of someone else’s suffering is taking away that other person’s humanity. It’s complete bullshit! You do things because you want to and let me do things because I want to.

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In my case, CF has caused me congenital absence of vas. The vas deferens carries sperm from the testicle on out the penis. If it isn’t there, you can’t deliver sperm. You can’t get anyone pregnant the natural way.

However, just because you can’t deliver sperm doesn’t mean you don’t have it. It is possible to harvest immature sperm from the testes and harvest eggs from a woman, and then inject a sperm, one per egg, into the ovum and fertilize it. Then, these can grow to be 8 celled embryos and they can be transferred back into the woman where, with luck, one of them will implant and become a baby.

I have two children as a result of this process. Both were conceived at the same time. They were born four years apart. My daughter is a CF carrier. My son is not.

When I first got into the medical system, we thought of CF as only the fullblown condition, with the lung problems. There’s some problem—I don’t really know much about it—having to do with being unable to get fluid out of the lungs. It has to do with some osmotic process, I think. The way salts get carried through membranes.

What I find interesting about this is that the chemistry of bipolar disorder reminds me of the chemistry of CF. In bipolar there is a problem moving salts through the cell walls. I don’t know anything more than that, so I don’t know if the problems are related in any other way or not.

I digress.

My version of CF is CAV (congenital absence of vas). It’s not life threatening the way the full version is. When I was first diagnosed, they did not consider my version to be “full” CF, whatever we mean by that. Now they say I have CF. It isn’t life threatening, though.

The thing is that I carry the CF “mutation.” Delta F508. If a person gets two of these, they get full CF. My daughter may want to have any of her potential spouses checked for the gene. Just so they know. If so, they may want IVF so they can check to make sure they don’t have a child with CF.

However, if they don’t check and they do have a child with CF, I’m not going to say that child’s life is a life of suffering. That’s just a word and a word that diminishes people, I think. We all suffer. We all have joys. Lets concentrate on the good stuff. A child with CF can live to be in their late 20s these days. Maybe more. I think someone can have a wonderful life even if they live with CF.

@wundayatta I agree that parents consider the burden it will be on themselves if they have a sickly child, or one with a handicap, etc. I also think they hope for their child to have as little suffering as possible, in an altruistic sense. In addition, I think they try to imagine would they themselves want to live that way? I think all three are happening at once usually.

@JLeslie I agree that all are likely to happen. I think that it is a mistake to try to make decisions for another person by trying to imagine yourself in their position. It’s worse than a mistake, really. I think it is actually quite hurtful to others to imagine you know what they would want better than they do. I think parents do this all the time for their kids and it is a mistake, and I think intelligent people do this all the time on the behalf of less intelligent people and that is a mistake, too. Worse than a mistake: it diminishes the humanity of the person you make choices for.

We can never know what another person truly wants, and we should try never to make decisions for others. People should make their own decisions. It’s one thing to decide that you don’t want to see someone have to go through a certain experience, and so you stop it from happening. That’s on you. You get full responsibility. That’s honest.

But it is a lie to say “I did it for you.” No. You don’t know what I want. You can’t be sure. When you say that, you are trying to duck the responsibility for the decision. You don’t get to say you have my best interests at heart because you don’t and can’t know my best interests. Don’t pretend. Just do it on your own behalf. Be honest about your real reasons for the decision—which has to do with what is happening in your life as a result of that course of action.

@wundayatta Do you truly think it is impossible for someone to at least have altruistic intentions (even if you believe their values are misplaced) when they choose not to have a child because the child is likely to suffer? I don’t know how to convince you, but I assure you the thought of a sick child being a hassle to me has hardly crossed my mind.

Again, who is harmed if I choose not to have a child because I think the child might inherit my disease? The “potential child” that never got to exist? Do you mourn every wasted sperm?

I was talking about defects which mean babies living at most 2–3 years with incredible pain and suffering.

@Mariah Sure they have altruistic intentions. ANd in the end, it doesn’t make a different why they didn’t have the child. And I guess it really says more about what kind of parents they might be if they think they could read their child’s mind or they know the child’s wishes better than the child does. That seems like it could cause problems.

@wundayatta I feel like you are trying to compare gasping for air with wanting your child to continue taking violin lessons?

Oh.