Social Question

judochop's avatar

If we are supposed to ignore genderization then where do we draw the line?

Asked by judochop (16099points) January 17th, 2012

A couple of recent questions asked here on Fluther has brought to my attention that if I am raising my daughter as an equal to men and if I treat ladies as equals to men and vise-versa then when is it okay to say no?
Example: The ship is sinking, woman and children first or children first and then an equal amount of men and woman or free for all?
Example: You are out on a few first dates, who pays? Is the man still expected to pay?
Example: Holding the door for a lady, would you expect her to hold it for you if she got there first?

When is it ok to assume, I am the man and you are the woman so this is the way it should be? And where does that even exist anymore? How does it work in gay relationships vs. straight relationships?

It is possible that I am over thinking this but I am old fashioned yet I still expect my daughter and S.O.‘s to be equals in the relationship unless there is a factor that demands more of one than the other…Help me figure a medium out please, for conversations sake.

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20 Answers

BandanaMike's avatar

What do you mean by genderization. We don’t choose our genders and we are born a specific gender and that is our gender. How does one genderize someone? Men and women should be treated as equals. Sexual descrimination is sexism. I think wat you mean is that we are supposed to ignore sexism. I’m sorry if I sound condescending as that is not my intention.

judochop's avatar

What I mean by genderization is the assumption of color association, duty association and gesture association. This can also be applied to jobs, bikes, sports, etc.
Blue is for boys while pink is for girls.
Hell, I drive a pink car. I roll up next to rednecks and I get, sweet ride but why is it pink? This kind of stuff.

JilltheTooth's avatar

@BandanaMike : We are born a specific sex. Gender is the social reaction to that sex.

@judochop : I’ll think a bit, then I’ll answer your Q.

deni's avatar

I hold the door for people no matter what gender. I thought that was common courtesy and what everyone did? lol

With the sinking ship, I think it should be children first then free for all.

Do you really drive a pink car? Is it a cadillac? I’ve never seen another type of pink car. But that is awesome.

I don’t know, when I was growing up my parents never told me to do anything one way or another, but they did make me get a job as soon as I was 16 and start paying for my own shit, so I think I just appreciated the value of a dollar from a younger age than some and when I went out to eat with a guy, assumed it was my duty to pay for what I ate and therefore bought. It’s just as nice of a gesture for a woman to pay for a man’s dinner as it is for a man to pay for a woman’s. It’s almost weird to think about that because society has soooo programmed us to think that MEN PAY. I can’t really trace that line of thinking back to its roots. Men = stronger sex = hunt the food = pay for meals, I guess. I just think that’s weird, and unfair.

Are you asking this question for the sake of how to talk to your daughter about it? Just curious. I think this poster should be in more classrooms.

Sorry for this rambling, I ate a really strong edible earlier, I hope you’ll understand

BandanaMike's avatar

@judochop Ok now I know what you mean. I think it just always been that way. I never really thought about it. When a child becomes an adult they tend to cross those gender barriers a little. Some women like working on cars and doing manly things. Some men like to bake or work in fashion.

zenvelo's avatar

It’s not genderization as much as it is treating people, regardless of gender, decently.

I thought it was pretty well established that the one who ask s the other pays for the date. My girlfriend, who earns much less than me, at least pays for the movie if I pay for dinner. Taking turns paying is why women who earn less will often ask a guy over for dinner after a few dates. (There’s a lot more to it than that, but it is part of what always gets suggested by Dear Abby and others).

JilltheTooth's avatar

My Dad was a large strong man with an engineering degree. He had three daughters. He used to tell me that a man’s job was one that required the use of a penis. Gender roles for their own sakes have had really no place in my world, but I have been frustrated when others wanted to impose them. I do, however recognize that they are there, and they once served a purpose before they became sexist. Consideration and courtesy towards all humans is not gender related, but extra courtesy to a pregnant woman can be construed as such, even though it is as simple as the fact that she is physically different from her usual self and may be physically less able because of it. Men and women are different but should not be unequal. Draw any line that want, but expect a daughter of the Third Millennium to step over it, and respect her choices.

marinelife's avatar

I will stand and give up my seat to an elderly person (of either sex). Who ever gets to the door first should open it.

People should wither take turns treating on dates or go Dutch.

Mariah's avatar

The ship is sinking, woman and children first or children first and then an equal amount of men and woman or free for all? Women and children first is silly. Children first, maybe. Whatever facilitates the fastest removal of the largest number of people from the ship.

You are out on a few first dates, who pays? Is the man still expected to pay? I know some people still think the man should pay; I’d rather split the bill, or in some situations the person who extended the invitation should pay.

Holding the door for a lady, would you expect her to hold it for you if she got there first? I wouldn’t expect anyone to hold the door for me but anyone of any gender holding the door for anyone else is polite.

There. Easy.

jca's avatar

I know most civil service tests for firemen have lowered the standards so that women can pass – I mean the standards regarding carrying loads up and down ladders. Do I think that’s right? No. Would I prefer someone be able to carry me and not drop me? Yes. However, I am also for equal rights – just how it would apply to something like a test for firemen, I am not sure. I would think if a woman could not pass the test she should not be eligible to be hired, no matter what.

Mariah's avatar

@jca Yeah that’s an interesting issue. I don’t understand why anyone would think it sexist to keep the standards where they were. It’s not like anyone’s saying “you can’t be a fireman if you’re a woman,” they’re just making the (completely reasonable) requirement that firemen be able to lift a certain weight. Granted, statistically fewer women will be able to make the cut, but it’s still entirely possible for women to be strong enough, so how is it discriminatory?

tranquilsea's avatar

In a world that seems to be soo inconsiderate I’ve made sure I have a running conversation with both my sons and my daughter. I want my sons to be considerate of their dates but I also want my daughter to be comfortable and responsible enough to do things like pay for every other date.

It really comes down to respect of one another.

Neizvestnaya's avatar

Sinking ship: help the helpless or less able first.

Hold the door or open it for anyone approaching near behind.

The person doing the asking pays for the date.

The driver unlocks the car door and/or opens it for passengers.

Those are easier ones that have to do with general courtesey than sexism. Trickier ones are who walks curbside on the street because that is completely based on sexism versus practicality.

When you can take an action and see it’s practical benefit, I don’t see why it’s not ok to keep that, teach that along.

Soupy's avatar

Gender roles are outdated bullshit which should be erased. Every adult should have equal rights and responsibilities, no duties or expectations should be pushed on someone because of gender.

Example 1: Whoever gets to the boat first, though decent folks might allow children to take priority.

Example 2: People should just pay for their own meals unless they’ve previously worked out another arrangement which all parties are happy with.

Example 3: As a lady I hold the door for people right behind me, and people who are incapacitated in one way or another (heavy bags, pregnancy, physical disability, etc).

downtide's avatar

Out on the first few dates, the person who did the asking-out or choosing the venue pays, regardless of gender. Or, split the bill equally or take it in turns to pay.

Holding doors – the person who gets to the door first holds it for the person behind, regardless of gender. Or the person who is able-bodied holds it for the person who has a physical impediment of any kind.

Sinking ship – Children with their parents, and people with disabilities first, then free-for-all amongst the remaining able-bodied.

saint's avatar

Your question reveals the sinister strategy of the Marxist left. Thanks for bringing it up.

Paradox25's avatar

Well for me personally I would answer your first example with helping children and the least abled first regardless of gender, then women, then men.

Your second example I would answer by saying that personally as a guy that regardless of who asked who on a date that I still pay. I also still pull the chair for her and open the door for her on the date as well.

To answer your third example I would say that it is different when somebody arrives at a door before you so it is common courtesy to hold the door open for that person regardless of gender, and women hold doors open for me all of the time.

I’m not sure where I would draw the line here and there are some things that I’m old fashioned with such as protecting a woman, paying for dates, performing more physical tasks, holding doors open, pulling out chairs, proposing for marriage, etc. However there are some things that I’m not old fashioned with such as who should make the first move/who should ask who out on a date, how each gender should behave emotionally, what each gender should be interested in as far as jobs/hobbies/interests goes, etc.

Men are generally physically stronger than women so those related issues are obvious but I’m not sure what to tell you about the nonphysical issues and those were my own personal preferences. I guess you should do what you feel is right to yourself just like I and anybody else would.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

When it comes to the types of examples you mentioned, people want to avoid generalizations only when they are disadvantaged by it. Like the Blank person who wants to be equal to everyone else, but expect to get into school or a job because a de facto quota exist under the guise of “Affirmative action”. Same as women trying to say “we are equal” yet they cannot defend themselves in the sense of fending off unwanted advances equally to a man, hence all the sexual harassment laws. If you have two golfers who believe they are equal or better than their opponent, they are not going to ask of or accept handicaps or points spotted, if you have to spot points, stokes, or make compensations, it only shows that person needing compensation is not good enough to play, compete, or win without help. If I ever have a daughter I will teach het to stand her own without any special help.

ETpro's avatar

I’ll grant you life is getting more complicated. When it comes to holding doors open for others, if I get there first and others are close behind, I hold the door for the man, wonan of child. I go out of my way to open doors and offer assistance to those who are physically challenged, and would find it difficult of impossible to open the door for themselves. This has nothing to do with gender. It’s simple civility. But there is much left to work through.

augustlan's avatar

Common courtesies should be extended to everyone, regardless. I’d say that the most important thing in raising a child of either sex is to let them be who they are, not who we perceive or want them to be. If your girl happens to like pink princesses, that’s fine, but if she prefers blue cars, let her, you know?

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