Does English grammar really matter?

Yes, it matters for clarity and precision in meaning. But if English is not your native language and you’re still working on it then we’ll certainly make allowances and try to clarify things we need to understand when responding.

I’ve been working on it for over half a century now.

I am just waiting to see the answers to this one!!

@jehnstewart Relax, we’ll cut you some slack. I’m American and I suck at grammar. It’s life.

The moderation team is happy to help you with any issues, especially if you let them know that English is not your first language.

(Being moderated is not a punishment or judgement, rather an opportunity to polish your question so that it’s clear, garnering you the most helpful answers.)

I hope that people will cut her some slack.

If we cut you some slack, we have to cut everyone some slack. Just sayin’ that may be hard for some…

For myself, if someone is using bad grammar, I wonder about their education level. That is, of course, unless they are using bad grammar on purpose to prove a point. For example; “I ain’t a-gonna do it.”

But I can usually tell when reading a post from a person whose first language is clearly not English. In that case, I am happy to decipher and don’t judge. I am sure a Spanish-speaking person would have a heck of a time reading a post from me in Spanish. (Ha-ha.)

@CWOTUS answers this very well above…. But you should take comfort in the fact that you have asked this question very well, and it is certainly easy to understand you. Do try out your other questions, and if at all concerned, mention in your question-details that English is not your first language. This is a nice community, and people here have fun.

(In case you haven’t come across it elsewhere, the use of the tilde ~ means that someone is being humerous/sarcastic, and that it’s to be taken in good humour. I realise that is something that may get lost in translation!) :-)

I understand people who don’t use English as second language. Most only have a problem with people who already know English and grew up speaking and writing it, so they should know better.

I would hope no one actually harshly criticises someone when they know English isn’t their first language.

It is important, but I’m sure we will understand.

Haha…..I apologize for my own grammar mistakes.

Yes, it matters, but based on the way that you wrote this question, yours is good enough. Also, we make allowances for those for whom English is not a first language.

Ask away.

Welcome to Fluther! It’s a good place to practice your English and aren’t the first to do that. Questions are often asked about grammar, punctuation and word meanings. The words that have many meanings, or those with very similar meanings, are often puzzling.

Yes. English grammar does matter. It helps to know that you don’t speak English as a first language. It means that you conjugated “matters” incorrectly not because you were uneducated, but because you didn’t know.

Grammar matters because it can get very confusing as to what you are trying to say. Then we have to guess what you are asking about. They we might get it wrong and answer the wrong question. That gets annoying. Of course, not only do English as a foreign language speakers ask confusing things; so do the rest of us. In a different way, generally.

Anyway, the mods will help you if you ask about how to phrase things. And you do want to ask what you want to ask, I hope; not something inadvertent.

I suspect you used the word ‘matters’ incorrectly to test us rather than because you didn’t know. Fair enough. The most important thing about questions is how interesting and stimulating they are rather than whether they are grammatical.

PS There aren’t many Asians here and so I look forward to reading what you have to say. It is good to get a new perspective on things.

Using good grammar and spelling is important for effective communication. It is easy to distinguish between those whose first language is not English and people who and native English speakers who neglect to write their questions and answers using proper English. Most of us are respectful and supportive of those who use Fluther as a way to communicate and share ideas, even if they are still working on improving their spelling and grammatical skills.

Try and relax and participate as well as you can,

Even as a highly educated person, I still put considerable effort to check over what I write. I still make mistakes sometimes, especially when I am tired or overly agitated about the topic under discussion.

Yes, most people will be much more lenient if you’re up-front and let everyone know that English is your second language.

Nah!

I don’t think so. As long as I can understand your meaning the grammer to me isn’t that important.

“grammar” can mean a few different things. For many native English speakers, “grammar” means a collection of prescriptions which have nothing to do with clear communication and everything to do with identifying yourself with a certain group. Things like when to use “whom”, when to use “which” or “that”, how to use apostrophes, etc.

For English language learners, grammar is much more than this, and it can impede communication if your command of grammar isn’t high enough. But judging by this question, it seems that your English is fine. I’m sure we’ll forgive any mistakes you make.

> a collection of prescriptions which have nothing to do with clear communication and everything to do with identifying yourself with a certain group

@morphail, would you mind elaborating on that? I care about how I write and speak, and I don’t believe I have ever thought of it as a sign of membership in a group. Which group would that be? Just about every group I can think of in my experience has a wide range of levels of English competence represented in its membership, including professional writers, academics, and children.

Important is grammar.

I sar this on Facebook.
“Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you’re shit.”
I think auggie might have posted it.

I say go for it. Mention English is your second language in the question, and then if people need clarification they will ask for it. Even though fluther cares about grammar, we certainly make allowances for ESL jellies. If it is very bad it will get flagged and sent back to you for a rewrite. Someone can help you rewrite if necessary.

@Jeruba The group that cares about “grammar”. For instance, knowing when to use “whom” isn’t about communicating clearly, it’s about showing that you know how to use “whom”. Simon John called “whom” “the sign by which the believers in good usage recognize one another”.

It also makes no difference in clarity if you say “Suzy and I”, “Suzy and me” or “me and Suzy”.

@morphail, I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge and your opinion, but I absolutely disagree. To me it’s much more like finishing off your seams nicely when you sew a garment, even if no one but the wearer will ever see them; or, to take a very current example, to have the same exacting view of how a product is constructed from the inside out as Steve Jobs had, according to his biographer Walter Isaacson.

It grieves me to think that simply mastering the lessons we were taught in school and absorbing the example of skilled writers should be viewed as snobbery or showing off when it comes to language. I would not want my surgeon, my dentist, my flight’s pilot, my auto mechanic, or even my hairdresser to worry about appearing overly competent. I want them to be totally in command of the tools and skills of their craft and know the art of it. Should my dentist misalign my bridge just to prove to his colleagues that he’s not acting superior?

I know exactly how and when to use “whom” in formal writing. How would feigning ignorance benefit anyone? My everyday speech is much looser, just as my at-home table manners are more casual than those I’d produce at a fancy banquet, but why am I not better off having the choice of when to use my very best style?

@Jeruba sure, you might think using certain language makes you seem more elegant, or competent, or whatever, and that’s fair. But my point is that it’s not about clarity. There’s nothing about “who” as an object that is unclear. I’m not sure where you disagree with me, because it seems to me that you are saying that people who use English a certain way belong to a certain group: the group that cares about using English a certain way in order to sound more elegant etc.

I’m all for following the example of skilled writers! However, the rules we learned in school are often at odds with the example of skilled writers. For instance that/which: look in any work that is considered great English literature and you’ll find “which” heading restrictive clauses. My issue here has nothing to do with snobbery; it’s that so much of what we consider “proper grammar” is inaccurate. It doesn’t describe how good writers actually use English.

@morphail Who and whom might not be about clarity, but things like double negatives can be. Especially for instance the crazy deliberate unethical way some propositions are written When they are up for vote. Written in the negative to confuse, so a yes vote is like a no vote and vice versa. At least if people have a good command of the language and the rules that are supposed to apply they have a better chance of deciphering it correctly.

Communication is more likely to be successful if everyone is basically speaking the same language with the same rules. Fine to be bilingual, including standard English and a dialect as bilingual, but best to know the common language spoken and written well enough that everyone understands each other. I guess that means we either stick to some basic rules, or everyone has to change to accomodate those that are altering the language, and they tend to be less educated, less knowledgable about the rules. In a world that is multicultural, and where English is pretty much the international language, it is easier for everyone, including international businessmen, to be able speak with certain grammatical and word choice expectations.

And, the fact is people are judged by how they speak, so it goes to comforming with the group a person wants to be accepted by. Right now most of the people in charge, in power, own corporations, hire employees, are going to want to hire someone who can speak standard English. It is the same as wearing the proper clothing, and conducting oneself within norms of the community.

@Jeruba there are two very different things we mean by “double negatives”. Double negatives in standard English, like “I don’t like half of you half as much as I shouldn’t”, or whatever, can be confusing. But the double negatives of nonstandard dialects, like “I didn’t see nothing”, are certainly not unclear, even for speakers who don’t speak that dialect. is there any evidence that people get these different kinds of double negatives confused? That speakers of AAVE, for instance, see a double negative in standard English (like say “not uncommon”) and misinterpret it?

Everyone is basically speaking the same language with the same rules. There are variations across dialects, but most of the grammar is identical. It seems to me that most communication problems across dialects are social, not linguistic. That is, something like “I didn’t see nothing” is completely clear, but it is stigmatized and not appropriate in many contexts.

I agree with your last paragraph.

@morphail, aren’t you answering @JLeslie?

And my point is that it’s not about making myself “seem” a certain way or “sound more elegant.” That notion of purpose or intent is, for me at least, just a fiction grafted onto observed behavior. I don’t grant you the right to assign me a motive of your creation.

Can’t you admit of the possibility that there might be reasons other than trying to impress somebody or wear a certain badge? Why does a musician care about hitting the right notes? Is it just to impress people, do you think?

Ooops, I got @Jeruba and @JLeslie mixed up.

@Jeruba I never said anything about impressing anyone. I just think we use language to show our identification with a certain group. I do it, everyone does it. That’s part of what we use language for. It’s normal.

So you don’t use certain language in order to sound more elegant. I’m sorry I misunderstood you. The impression I’m getting is that you use the language you do because it’s correct, because it’s the “right notes”. But I like LJeslie’s analogy better: language is like fashion, and the language you choose depends on the situation. That doesn’t make a tie inherently better than a T-shirt, just different.

@morphail The problem with your message is when it is given in an incomplete way it is like giving permission; or rather, encouraging people who speak non-standard English to feel good about it (which in itself is not a bad thing) and possibly feel their way of speaking is good enough, and no one should try to correct them. People who validate a dialect as legitimate, sometimes fail to say it is still important to speak the common language. Or, maybe they do say it, but the message gets lost. It really would be easier if everyone spoke a similar brand of English, which for the most part we do in the US.

Kids in the ghetto for instance need to understand that language is an important part of how they will be judged and understood. Schools should only be teaching in standard English in my opinion. Dialects are for family and friends, not for education, unless it is taken as a second language of some sort. It is really important for the language to “sound” correct. Sometimes we don’t know a rule in English, but we know what sounds right. I remember a Q once on fluther where the OP was asking about her stepdaughter who was going to school to be a teacher, and made many grammatical mistakes, the stepdaughtee felt she spoke just fine. The OP was frustrated, because she could not correct her with the dynamic between them. I hope her college doesn’t let her slide by.

.

@JLeslie it’s true, I am often misunderstood… this is a problem linguists have. Real linguists, and amateur linguists like me, are looking at language rationally and treating it like any other field of study, and people think we’re saying “anything goes! talk however you want.”

It might be easier if everyone spoke exactly the same dialect, but that is impossible. I still think the differences between say AAVE, British English, and NA English are extremely small and are not a big problem for communication.

@morphail, I thought “using certain language makes you seem more elegant, or competent” could be rendered as “impressing people,” but if not, I’ll go with your words. In either case you are still insisting that it’s about the effect you have on others, about how people perceive you, and I’m saying it’s about meeting an internal standard—playing the right notes even if no one is listening.

To say that a person does something in order to be identified as a member of a group made up of people who do something in order to be identified with that group doesn’t seem to me to be saying much other than that it’s a pointless circularity. But this argument is still based on a presumption that the purpose is to influence external perception. I am not generalizing about others; I am simply saying that it’s a matter of intrinsic motivation with me. If anything, external influences push away from and not toward clean speech and writing.

@Jeruba are you familiar with Labov’s department store study http://aggslanguage.wordpress.com/2009/09/20/william-labov/
One of the ways most people use language is to identify with a group. It can be conscious or unconscious. I didn’t think this was controversial. I accept that that’s not why you use “proper grammar”.

No, @morphail, I’m not familiar with that study. If you’re an amateur in this field, I don’t know what I am. Beyond public school, I’m self-taught in the field, from literature I chose without guidance. A conventional English major such as mine was does not touch on any of this. My longed-for PhD in linguistics was not to be.

Maybe Labov’s finding is not controversial. That doesn’t make it a universal truth. In any case, I see that it’s about pronunciation, not grammar. I don’t believe they’re closely enough aligned that a study of one extends to the other. I would be arguing a different position if this thread were about pronunciation.

People use accent and diction to identify with a group—that much is obvious. Shibboleths. Who’s “us” and who’s “them”? I learned to speak the jargon of a computer programmer at one stage in my career. But @morphail, in the town and community of New England in which I grew up, where speech is (was) most decidedly a stamp that distinguishes the locals from the outsiders, people used to remark on my speech. Some asked me where I was from—in my home town. I can explain this, but that is way off the topic.

All my life, when I have just been speaking in my normal manner, without attempting to seem like anything or impress anyone, I’ve had people say to me, “Why don’t you just speak English?” How do you feel about the implication that clear, careful usage and grammatical speech aren’t English?

I mention this simply to illustrate my point that my choice of how I speak is not a matter of group identification.

I liked @JLeslie‘s analogy too, but I don’t think she was speaking about fashion. She was speaking of dressing appropriately for the occasion. I mentioned something similar when I said I don’t use my formal-banquet manners at the family dinnertable. Likewise, you can play your violin in a Mozart string quartet, or join the orchestra of a Broadway musical, or you can saw a hot fiddle in a country-music hoedown. Those are vastly different styles. You still want to play the right notes.

There’s no reason why this effect wouldn’t extend to grammar. But you’re right, we need evidence. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were studies, although the sociolinguistics I’m familiar with concentrates on pronunciation, perhaps because it’s easier to measure.

There’s this, which suggests that grammar changes depending on situation:
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002458.html

There’s also Simon john’s comments I mentioned above. And of course all the prescriptive grammar books that say things like “say this if you want to seem smart”, and “say this to distinguish yourself from the people around you.”

Dressing appropriately for the occasion was what I meant by fashion. How to dress, how to behave, how to talk – all these things change over time and change according to the situation.