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ETpro's avatar

Would the death penalty deter criminals if death were by torture?

Asked by ETpro (34605points) March 13th, 2012

Let’s face it, there is no humane way to execute somebody. We try to avoid any form of execution that might include any pain, but how can it not be painful sitting in a cell knowing the clock is clicking down to your last moment on Earth?

Because the death penalty is so final, we equivocate, and allow almost unlimited appeals. Typically, it takes 10 years or more before the final appeal is exhausted and the sentence is carried out. Should we eliminate capital punishment altogether? Or should we switch things so executions are swift and horribly painful. Perhaps we could drop lethal injections, which are started with a general anesthetic; and instead flog prisoners to death with a cat of nine tails. Or how about impaling on a wooden spike like Count Dracula (Vlad the Impaler) was famed for doing.

What’s your opinion on capital punishment?

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54 Answers

dappled_leaves's avatar

I think capital punishment is quite horrible enough the way it is currently practiced, thanks. I think that if the threat of death is no deterrent, then the threat of pain will certainly not be. And I think what using capital punishment says about a society is bad, but not nearly as bad as what torture of criminals says about that society. And… who are you going to hire to do this work, exactly?

What an awful question. Can you be serious?

wundayatta's avatar

Nope. Did death by fire deter anyone? The problem is there is no clear relationship between the crime and the likelihood of getting caught and prosecuted for that crime. Many people get convicted of crimes they didn’t commit. Many people are not convicted of crimes they did commit. In that kind of uncertainty, the prospect or torture is meaningless. It is as likely to encourage someone to commit the crime as it is to deter them.

chyna's avatar

I feel most criminals think they will not get caught, so I don’t think the death penalty will really deter them.
I have issues with the death penalty. So many cases have recently come to light that DNA has proven someone’s innocence, that I can’t really be for the death penalty. Even if just one person is exonerated through new technology, that is enough for me to be against the death penalty.
Let me also add that no one in my family or close friends have been a victim of a death penalty-worthy crime, so my mind may be changed if that ever happens.

ragingloli's avatar

You could kill the criminal’s entire family in front of his eyes before executing him, and it still would not deter crime. Criminals do not expect to get caught.

Coloma's avatar

I doubt it.
“Criminals” are either, A: grossly immature minds with impulsive issues and do not have the presence of mind to think about potential consequences as what they want in the moment takes precedence, think children, stealing the cookie now is worth the risk of bad mommy catching them. lol OR, they are highly intelligent sociopathic personalities that don’t believe they will be caught. Either/or I think denial would trump the potential threat of torture, and, what would that say about all of us supposed “civilized” citizens that promote torture as a means of dealing with developmentally arrested criminals?

The death penalty has not deterred many violent offenders, torture would be no different IMO. and it’s trickle down effect would have the most detrimental affect on those of us that promote it. Nope, I plan on leaving this planet with no blood on my hands. Thanks. ;-)

JustPlainBarb's avatar

Most criminals don’t think about being caught or the punishment to follow.

They are often delusional and unrealistic that they are so smart they can beat the “system”. Most can even justify what they’re doing .. so don’t even consider that it’s wrong in the first place.

The people who worry about being caught and punished are the ones who don’t commit the crimes in the first place!

SpatzieLover's avatar

No.

I need zero deterrents. I won’t commit a crime.

For others, there will be no deterrents ever.
Some people actually commit crimes specifically to get into jail. How do you deter that?

6rant6's avatar

So let me see if I’ve got this straight. Electrocution is the nice way to do it?

cockswain's avatar

I think it would deter some would be criminals for sure. I couldn’t even speculate as to what percentage. I would guess most would be unaffected. I wonder what torture we’d sanction as a society though, considering how we aren’t supposed to sanction torture in war. I’d say it would probably open a Pandora’s box of sorts. The kind where there isn’t some cheerful “hope” at the bottom.

Coloma's avatar

@6rant6 Nah….hanging from horseback is the best way. lol

Coloma's avatar

I agree with @SpatzieLover

Committing crimes is a mental/character disorder short of dire survival needs.
Character is not something that can be propagated, you either have it, or you don’t.
If you don’t, it is next to impossible to aqquire “it.”
This is why, for the most part, punishment is not a deterring factor.

A person of high integrity and strong character could not be swayed to commit a crime, and one of low integrity and weak character will not be easily called off the scent of their true nature.

tom_g's avatar

@ETpro: “Would the death penalty deter criminals if death were by torture?”

I don’t care to know the answer to this question as I feel it has no relevance to the question of the death penalty, which I do not support.

cockswain's avatar

What if it wasn’t death by torture, but just really bad torture that didn’t result in death?

Coloma's avatar

@cockswain Then that would render the supporters of said torture sadists and they too should be tortured for their torturing. A vicious circle jerk of “justice.”

wundayatta's avatar

@cockswain It doesn’t matter. People are not thinking about possible punishments when they commit crimes. It doesn’t matter how awful the punishment might be. People commit crimes for more immediate reasons.

Future punishment is very speculative and arbitrary and no one really has faith in the justice system to be infallible. Absent that, it’s just a crap shoot, and not worth thinking about, if you are a criminal.

People who believe in deterrence just don’t get human psychology. They believe in rules-based systems. That is not what motivates people. Maybe when you were a kid, a caning might make you think about something, but even then, I doubt it. That is not how we think. Our behaviors are motivated internally, not externally. Deterrence is a mistaken idea in this context.

6rant6's avatar

@wundayatta Deterence does work for most people. That there are exceptions is what allows us to fill our prisons.

dappled_leaves's avatar

@6rant6 “Deterence does work for most people”

Does it? Is that what keeps you from committing crimes?

annewilliams5's avatar

@Coloma I must defer to your answers, when answering from my viewpoint. Well said. But, let me take this one step further. If punishment does not stop violent and premeditated crime, then what does? When is society going to demand that we teach, from the beginning, that crime should not be a necessary part of existence? We have such a “dog-eat-dog” world that our prisons are overcrowded with people who take what ever they want, regardless of the outcome.
I went from absolutely never pro-death penalty to pro very quickly a few years ago, and stayed that way for awhile. The difference now is that I see no future in it. The death penalty, or for that matter any punishment, does nothing to deter anyone who wants, whatever, without caring about who is harmed.

pussinboots's avatar

It would work if they were tortured on their very first offence ,say at 5 years old. As a child the dentist tortured me and now i really do look after my teeth.The deterant worked for me.

MrItty's avatar

If criminals thought they were going to get caught, they wouldn’t commit the crime to begin with.

6rant6's avatar

@dappled_leaves Deterrence is one of the reasons I obey the law, of course. Certainly there are things that I would not do that are against the law – like killing – regardless of the law.

But I might just decide against paying some tax if the law did not require it, and I thought I might go to jail for failing to pay it. I would wager that no one here pays more tax than they think they are legally required to. And __almost__ everyone pays enough that they think it will keep them out of prison.

cockswain's avatar

@Coloma Next time I want to be excused from jury duty, I’m going to show up wearing a t-shirt that says “a vicious circle jerk of justice.”

@wundayatta I disagree with your premise that deterrence is a mistaken concept. Look what happens when there’s a disaster: looters appear everywhere because they suddenly think they can get away with it. Do you think all of those people are always criminals? I would say many of them don’t commit crimes more frequently for fear of being caught.

How many times has anyone felt like kicking someone’s ass? You have the impulse, yet is it moral superiority that prevents you from not smacking that snide asshole, or the idea that going to jail for a few months and the impact that would have on your life that stops you? Do any of us follow the speed limit exactly? A lot of us may drive 5–10mph over and feel OK with that risk. We may still feel like we can drive 80mph on a desert road marked 55mph, but perhaps we don’t for fear of getting caught.

dappled_leaves's avatar

Well, it’s your lucky day, @6rant6! Looks like you aren’t likely to be jailed for tax evasion, so feel free to stop paying.

nikipedia's avatar

When I think about how many innocent people are convicted of crimes it makes me sick.

I don’t think I would support the death penalty, even if it were an effective deterrent. So I also would not support making it more effective by making it less humane.

Coloma's avatar

@annewilliams5
Those with character disorders and sociopathic brains do not care, they are conscienceless individuals and therefore, I agree, the death penalty is rendered moot for these types. Besides, corporal punishment is like hitting a child for hitting. I don’t have any answers, other than the threat of such punishments don’t work with the vast majority of criminals.

@6rant6 What does jury duty have to do with torturing criminals?
If I was on a jury I would not comply with the death penalty, so, I’d be the hanger of the hung jury. lol

Bottom line, IMO, as Einstein said, solving a problem with the same mindset that caused it never works.
Most hardcore criminals are victims of abuse and neglect in their early years.
Again, short of sociopathology and other mental disorders.
To further abuse abuse victims is not only insane it is morally wrong, period.

wundayatta's avatar

@cockswain and @6rant6. There is a spectrum of behavior motivation that extends from the intrinsic to extrinsic. Maybe someone can find the cites for me if you need them, but the research I’ve seen shows that intrinsic motivation works a hell of a lot better than extrinsic. If you are motivated extrinsically, then basically you only behave well while being watched. The moment you are no longer watched, you do what you want without concern for consequences.

These are psychological and educational theories. Typically, people who grow up in militaristic households are extrinsically motivated. It is the military theory of how to mold people. These people also tend to be conservatives. They often believe in an authoritarian religion. They come from houses where corporal punishment was used as the only means of discipline. The mentality is that there is the master and the slave. The master is usually the man of the house and the slaves are everyone else. It is a mentality that is inherited to some degree, especially by black folk. Blacks are more likely to use corporal punishment to discipline their kids than whites do. It is one of the inheritances of slavery.

The best way to motivate people is with intrinsic motivation. This does not require effort since no one has to watch anyone else. People regulate themselves. People figure out what is moral on their own and do it.

Most of us achieve this state of existence at some point in our adulthood. However some are never able to figure out the moral thing on their own. They figure they can get away with what they can get away with, and if no one is watching them, they’ll take what they can.

In my community, when there is a disaster, people get out on the streets and help each other. In New Orleans, there was looting. Also in NYC. My community was based on Quaker philosophies. New Orleans has a history solidly entwined with that of slavery. New York… well, I’m not sure, because I’ve lived there, and I’ve seen cooperation there as well. So perhaps it is a neighborhood by neighborhood thing.

We want people to do the right thing because they want to. And if raised right, they will do the right thing because they want to. However, not everyone raises people right, and thus people are willing to behavior in an immoral fashion.

Those who are used to thinking in terms of extrinsic motivation turn to extrinsic motivators, like the death penalty or torture or light torture (called corporal punishment for kids). It doesn’t work. At best it brings temporary compliance. But it breeds people who don’t trust the fairness of society.

For punishment to work, it has to be infallible. It has to happen in every case where it is needed, and it has to happen quickly. Our justice system guarantees that punishment is going to fail most of the time. Our system is too slow, and too inaccurate, and it is not meted out fairly. If you are wealthy, you are more likely to avoid punishment.

If punishment doesn’t work, what do we do? What we should be doing is working to make sure that criminals don’t commit crimes again. That means we need to eliminate the causes of crime. Typically, that means people need jobs. They also need relationship skills. They need to buy into society and see it as fair. They need fairness.

I’m sorry I’m not offering proof for all of this. I just don’t have time. So I’m sticking with the theory. I don’t expect you to believe me without proof, but I hope you will open your minds to the idea that there are other ways of building a safe society. I hope to appeal to you as a practical matter. The kinds of deterrence we are talking about don’t work. They waste a lot of money. It would be far more practical and much less expensive if we devoted justice system funds to changing the way people behave instead of trying to make them hurt, which, it should be noted, makes them more likely to commit more crime in the future.

cockswain's avatar

@Coloma I assume you meant the jury duty comment towards me, not @6rant6 since he/she didn’t make a jury duty reference. Anyways, I was only making a joke that that would be a funny quote to wear on a t-shirt to get out of jury duty and implying nothing about its relevance to torturing criminals.

@wundayatta You posted while I was writing and it’s going to take me a bit to digest it. I’m not ignoring what you said.

Coloma's avatar

@cockswain Oops, my mistake, and, if it’s humor you were implying, well, count me in, yep, that would be a pretty catchy tee-shirt. Always more than a grain of truth in satirical humor. ;-)

flutherother's avatar

Ouch! I thought we’d sort of moved on from those days.

annewilliams5's avatar

@Coloma I’m not saying that I condone punishment for children. There is something to say for consistent and well thought out discipline, however. This goes back to basic childhood development. Children need to be taught what is right and wrong, not bullied. They work from the intellectual, more often than not, if given the chance. They need the reason why what they do works or doesn’t work, and why the consequences are the way they are. If they are able to make a connection between how they are affected and how others are affected, discipline tends to be more effective. Start when they are young, teach with kindness in mind, be consistent, and never forget that there must be accountability and the child, the parent, and hence society does better. I don’t what the answer is. As I said I’m just getting back to a point that justice is more what I want. There was a time, very recently, that torture, much less the death penalty, was an answer I would have thought to be more applicable. Time heals all wounds…
@wundayatta As far as personal behavior, I have chosen to be intrinsic. I am a firm believer in the knowledge of self being the #1 deterrent for crime. We know what is right and wrong. It would just be nice to have more of the right and less of the wrong.

ucme's avatar

I mean, “hardcore” criminals like serial killers & paedophiles are sick twisted individuals, they suffer from a diseased mind & therefore any potential capture/punishment is of no real consequence to them, completely detached from reality.

annewilliams5's avatar

@ucme Well then therein lies the rub. Do you believe in learning from them, so as to find ways to better handle potential criminals? If so, then are you suggesting a time limit? Or do we just kill them and never learn anything. Victims, survivors, and family members are still out there wanting to know why? The big question is always why did that criminal mind cave in enough to do that to me? We can live in the land of hate, or find the need to learn and change as a result.

glenjamin's avatar

For anyone to commit a crime punishable by these means they need to have a strong and compelling motive or be in a heightened state of mind, and in both situations they are not thinking of the consequences of their actions. Not that criminals don’t think logically, but their logic is perverted.

Coloma's avatar

@annewilliams5 Well, it is true that all criminals begin as children, so, in a perfect world… society, parents, teachers, friends would catch the childs errors in their developmental maturation before they became full blown criminals and/or sociopaths. Obviously early identification of and intervention of high risk kids would be far preferable to torture and death 25 years down the road.

Skaggfacemutt's avatar

The death penalty would be enough to deter criminals, even if it is quick and painless, if it was carried out the way it was intended. Trouble is, criminals know that they can usually cop a deal and avoid the death penalty. They also know that many states don’t have the death penalty. And even more know that you can spend your whole life hanging around death row, exhausting all of your appeals. Could take 20–30 years or more. So the death penalty then isn’t feared that much.

ucme's avatar

@annewilliams5 I’m not suggesting anything, merely answering the question, that’s all.

rojo's avatar

No, some people are just broken.

annewilliams5's avatar

@ucme That’s a good response. This, I hope, is merely meant as a way for people to express their opinions. Have at it. I never take anything personally.

6rant6's avatar

@wundayatta What is the intrinsic reward you get for driving the speed limit? Go ahead and tell me.

And I have not said that negative reinforcement works better than positive. But in some situations, negative reinforcement is much easier to manage – like speed limits. And it definitely is a deterrent. I am not saying that it is the best way to raise kids (it’s not). I’m not saying that it is the only way to get people to do something (it’s not). I am not saying that it is the most effective way to get people to do things (it seldom is). But it is still a deterrent, nonetheless, you know?

dappled_leaves's avatar

@6rant6 I agree with most of what you’ve just written… but then, if deterrents are seldom the most effective way to get people to do things – then for Pete’s sake, can we agree not to kill anyone as a deterrent?

Bellatrix's avatar

Death by electric chair, hanging, shooting, lethal injection…. all sound pretty tortuous to me. They don’t act as a deterrent.

No.

6rant6's avatar

@dappled_leaves Did something I say indicate I’m for the death penalty? I’m not. We haven’t figured out how to sort out the guilty from the innocent well enough, nor can we protect the weak from ending up in the chair. Plus everyone involved along the way – from the arresting officer to the guy who throws the switch – are dehumanized by it. Still. That doesn’t mean it’s not a deterrent for some.

Berserker's avatar

Vlad the Impaler used impalement as psychological warfare, rather than punishment. He’d even have dead bodies impaled. His forces were relatively small compared to his enemies, and in doing this, he could freak em out and demoralize them. They’d be all like, dude, are we seriously wanting to fight a guy who does shit like this? Damn, man…

Not that this has anything with what you asked. I was never sure where the death penalty came in though. To really punish someone, either through the waiting or the act, or to feed a blood thirsty crowd or what. I understand the concept of justice, but its execution no pun intended leaves me extremely confused.

bkcunningham's avatar

The most important part of the death penalty is that it deters that particular person from committing more crimes.

wundayatta's avatar

@6rant6 Clearly you don’t understand what an intrinsic reward is. The whole point of something being intrinsic is that doing it is its own reward. You don’t need anything else. The reward of obeying the speed limit is knowing that you are obeying the speed limit.

You sound like you can’t imagine anyone being motivated in such a way. If that’s true, it’s probably because you weren’t brought up to trust yourself to do the right thing. You were raised believing the only reason to do the right thing is out of fear of getting caught and being punished.

But maybe you are playing devil’s advocate and you do understand what an intrinsic reward is and are just trying to get me to say more. I don’t know why the idea of just following the speed limit because it happens to be the speed limit is such a hard thing to understand. Many (annoying) people do it.

I know that even I follow it on occasion. I don’t think it’s a good idea, but there are times when I want to drive like a hypermiler, and at those times, following the speed limit offers an additional reward—savings on the amount of gas I use. An actual concrete award.

The speed limit is largely voluntary, as it is. Most people only go about ten miles above the posted limit. They pretty well regulate themselves.

6rant6's avatar

@wundayatta You are bandying words. Do you think that if the punishment for speeding were removed that it would have any effect? You are not stupid. You know it wouldn’t.The left hand lane would be going at least thirty miles faster than the rightmost one, not ten.

“There are times….” Yeah. Like once when you were thirty or when the needle reads, “e”?

Your “ten miles above the speed limit” “fact” is bogus. In fact, enforcement agencies calculate typical speeds by highway segment. Outliers are ticketed. Everyone knows that if they are going about the same speed as everyone else, it’s probably safe.They are DETERRED from greatly exceeding the “prevailing speed.” And so my friend, are you.

ETpro's avatar

@dappled_leaves Sometimes asking terrible questions is a good way to get people to look at terrible things. I am not a fan of capital punishment and certainly don’t advocate torture. But I do want us to think through these things. Am I serious? Is capital punishment serious?

@wundayatta & @chyna You’re probably right, if they don’t think they will get caught, then the punishment for getting caught is a non-issue. And the rate of wrongful convictions that we know about is certainly less than the real rate. For that reason, I am opposed to either form of punishment.

@ragingloli OK, one more vote for “No, because they don’t think they will get caught.”

@Coloma That seems a more accurate appraisal. Not all think they won’t get caught. Some just don’t think. And I am sure that brutal punishment tends to coarsen all of a society.

@JustPlainBarb wrote, “The people who worry about being caught and punished are the ones who don’t commit the crimes in the first place!” Well said. How true.

@SpatzieLover I’ll second that. I won’t commit the crime either.

@6rant6 Ha! Electrocution wouldn’t be my first choice. But it is over very quickly.

@cockswain Didn’t the Bush Administration already open the door on torture, and the current administration, while claiming they wouldn’t use it, refuse to shut that door?

@tom_g “I don’t care to know the answer to this question as I feel it has no relevance to the question of the death penalty, which I do not support.”

Nor do I. Looking at a reductio-ad-absurdum of some question is often an effective way to challenge it.

@cockswain “What if it wasn’t death by torture, but just really bad torture that didn’t result in death?”

The most insidious aspect of torture is how long it continues. At some point, enduring it for another day is worse than death. But since we’ve established that criminals generally do not expect to get caught, would that matter. Most likely, constant, enduring torture would coarsen society far more than a quick death.

@Coloma As Mahatma Gandhi said, “An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.”

wundayatta, 6rant6, dappled_leaves & annewilliams5 The hour is late and I have other responses to handle, but I will definitely return to this debate. Very interesting. This discussion is what I had hoped this question would inspire. Thanks, all.

wundayatta's avatar

@6rant6 I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on this, but I assure you I am not bandying words. This is a very important distinction and I suspect you can’t see it due to life experiences.

If there were no fine or no enforcement of a fine for a posted speed limit, how fast would people go? I don’t know. I don’t think it would be a “sky’s the limit” thing. They have that situation in Germany, and there is a kind of consensus on how fast people should go. Sure, some people go bombing on by in their Maserati’s at 200 mph, but I’ll bet there’s an average speed that is probably around 80 mph.

In any case, most people have an intrinsic sense of what is safe and operate within those quidelines. This is true for most criminal activities. Most people know how they want society to run and conform to that notion. The notion is informed by law, but it is not the fear of deterrence that makes people follow these rules. It is an internal sense of righteousness.

Some people do follow rules because they don’t want to get caught and get punished, but these are not safe people. You can’t trust them because they do not have an internal regulator. They might, at any moment, decide it’s worth the risk of getting caught to do something they think they can “get away with.” Deterrence doesn’t work consistently and that is its problem. The fact that you can’t understand that shows that you have been brought up a different way. You simply don’t even believe in intrinsic motivation, I suspect.

6rant6's avatar

@wundayatta Well when you’re right, you’re right. And when you’re wrong, you can always attack my life experience. How bold.

Most people who are going above the speed limit slow when they see a cop car. Intrinsic my ass.

rojo's avatar

When I AM going the speed limit and see a cop I slow down too, so…........

ETpro's avatar

@6rant6 & @wundayatta Let me wade into this debate even if I’m late. I really appreciate the discussion. This is the sort of result I was looking for with the question. I do have some facts relevant to the discussion on whether behavior is modified by laws. And those facts lead me to think that both of you are partially correct, and the real answer lies somewhere between the position each of you has advanced.

One salient fact is that during and shortly after the end of prohibition, the incidence of cirrhosis of the liver dropped markedly in the USA. (Scroll down to the second graph showing death rates from alcoholic liver disease over time).

That would say that a significant number of people either quit drinking because they didn’t want the punishment involved in non-compliance, because they were unable to find alcohol to drink, or simply because they wanted to remain law abiding citizens. So to that extent, prohibition (the law and fear of penalties) worked. The cirrhosis rate suggests prohibition was rather successful, as @6rant6 suggests it should be.

We also know that quite a few people in America were not deterred by the law or by fear of punishment. It led to unforeseen and untoward consequences such as the rise of the organized crime handling moonshine distribution and poisonings from bathtub moonshine full of lead from solder used to fabricate automobile radiators. None of this would have happened unless a significant number of people were undeterred by laws or fear of punishment. Today, prohibition is largely regarded as a cataclysmic failure. This tells us the law and fear of punishment was far from a total success. A significant portion of the population did as @wundayatta predicts, following their gut instinct and not the law.

I also do not believe fear of punishment is the only factor causing obedience to the law. I don’t think we can entirely dismiss self image. Some people truly do wish to follow the law even if they do not agree with it. I am one of those. I really enjoyed psychedelics when they were first developed and before they were made illegal. If they were legal, I would use them occasionally today. But I won’t break the law to enjoy the experience. I’m confident I could do so and not get caught, but that’s just not who I am.

ETpro's avatar

@pussinboots I would hate to think we are going to have to recruit a legion of corrections officers who relish torturing five year old children. :-)

@MrItty I am sure that is true for many. I doubt it is a universal truth, though. Look at the US soldier who went on the killing rampage in Afghanistan. After killing 16 sleeping civilians, he walked back to his base, held his hands up,nand said. “I did it.”

You can see where your own lines are drawn by thinking about your own behavior. If you could do anything you wanted with absolutely no fear of legal reprisal; what would you do differently from how you live your life today? I am sure there are things you simply wouldn’t do because you would hate yourself for doing them. And there are also probably things that you don’t do because they are illegal, but would do if you knew beyond any doubt you could get away with it. I know that is true for me.

@nikipedia The wrongful conviction rate worries and angers me as well. I think a big part of the problem is making prosecuting attorney an elective office. Where DAs must run for reelection, you find the most outrageous examples of prosecutorial misconduct. You see elected prosecuting attorneys allowing testimony they know to be false, tampering with evidence and hiding exculpatory evidence. Holding onto their cushy job requires lots of convictions. Some will do almost anything to get reelected, even in some instances sending people they know to be innocent to life in prison, or to their death.

@Coloma Great answer. You got to the heart of the ethical question posed. Thanks. I am completely opposed to the death penalty for the listed reasons. I’d hoped this question would bring out some of the reasons why capital punishment should be eliminated.

annewilliams5's avatar

@6rant6 Thank you! Life experiences are, at times, more lessons than mistakes. They also assist us in developing the “gut instinct”, that has saved more than a few lives. If there weren’t good as well as bad life experiences, I highly doubt that we’d have many people left. Internal and external behavior modifiers are combined to create outward behavior, and in this day and age we should all get what is proper and what is not. There are enough resources in public media announcements alone, that would speak to the behavior that is acceptable. I bow to you.

Earthgirl's avatar

wundayatta 10,000 million GAs to you!

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