Why is it considered to be so horrible to rub a dog's nose in it when they deliberately poop in the house? Please read details.

It is very cruel. The dog is aware that it pooped in the house. It is not the optimum choice for the dog so one of several things happened:

1. It had not been taken out and given a chance to poop adequately beforehand. Owner’s fault.
2. It was left in the house too long and could not hold it. Owner’s fault.
3. It got sick with diarrhea. No one’s fault. These things happen.

So the reasons not to do it are legion:

1. The dog knows very well it did something not usually acceptable (not to the dog either, by the way).
2. Dogs have exquisite senses of smell and rubbing its nose in excrement is far more cruel than if you were to do that to a child (and would you? do that to a child?).
3. it does not accomplish what you want it to (getting the dog not to poop in the house).

So why do it? Except to be cruel?

If it was separation anxiety, which it sounds like it might have been from your description, it would be much more effective to crate him while you are gone until he learns not to poop in the house.

@Buttonstc; @Marina gave you very sensible and humane answers.

Occasionally, we adults also have GI accidents, don’t we? Think of how you would feel if someone rubbed your nose in it?

It is an ignorant and archaic means of “training.” Right up there with tossing a child off the end of a pier to “teach” them how to swim.
A dog does not have the same memory retention we have and if an accident is not caught immediately they do not make the association many minutes or hours later. They just expereince confusion as to why they have incurred the wrath of the human.

Dogs do not understand “shame and unpleasantness”, the action has no effect as a training method. That means that the action is merely gratuitous punishment for your own benefit, rather than a teaching method for the dog. The only result is damage to the relationship that you have with your pet.

Punishment as a training method only works if you catch the animal “in the act” and interrupt that behavior. Even then, negative reinforcement does not work nearly as well as positive enforcement.

What @marinelife said.

Do you have any dog trainers in your area? We hired good dog trainers to come to our house multiple times to help us address issues we couldn’t seem to get under control alone. Often, these trainers are more familiar with dog psychology, and are able to help you resolve this problem in a cruelty-free way. Good luck.

Well, since he already knows I’d say talking to him sternly, with displeasure, would be your first option. For unknown reasons my seven-year-old Dakota occasionally craps in the house, and she is perfectly miserable until I address it. Once she crapped in the laundry room. I was too tired to address it immediately, and waited a couple of hours. Every time she walked past that room Dakota would look guiltily and miserably in. I finally realized she was WAITING for the other shoe to drop, and the anticipation was unbearable for her. So I took pity, and yelled at her and sent her outside, cleaned it up, and then she was happy again!

I once had a little dog, a cocker spaniel mix. When she was about 10 she just crapped in the middle of the kitchen, then stood looking at me anxiously. I said, “Snuffy! WHAT is wrong with you!” Then I looked closer….she had worms. I got that taken care of and she never had another accident.

Canine guilt.

Keep in mind, as highly social pack animals, dogs are exquisitely skilled at reading body language and other nonverbal cues.

OK guys – crucify me to if you want, but I do occasionally use the rub the nose thing on my dog. Only when she does it for no reason. She is plenty trained and scratches the door when she needs to go if it isn’t one of her regular times to go. So when she goes without letting me know, she gets a noseful. And I know most sources say that dogs don’t remember and all that, but if I am out, and I come home, and the dog is NOT there to greet me, it means she is hiding because she has done something wrong. This is her action whenever that is the case. I think they know and remember more than studies have shown. We can’t even get human psychology correct, so how can we expect to get dog psychology correct. Now, I’m not saying to use the technique all the time, but sometimes, like every kid needs a good slap in the ass every once and a while, a dog needs a good nose rubbing. My opinion only, and my observations of my dog only. Like I said, no crucifying please :)

@Ponderer983 By your own admission your technique is not working.

I never thought that was a good idea. First of all, a lot of dogs are poop eaters so where is the punishment, secondly I don’t want a dog with a poopy nose kissing me or even getting close to me.

Ideally catching the dog in the act and yelling like a madman and I am not opposed to a swat on the bottom too while ushering the dog to the desired place to eliminate. I don’t see this as animal abuse (that is penning a dog in the back yard and never letting it into the house, not feeding or taking care of, over breeding, that is abuse. A swat on the bottom is discipline IMHO.)

Actually I think dogs understand when they do something wrong so I would use the same method if I walk in after the fact. If you show the dog the pile and yell and usher outside, he will get the message.

And then praise to high heaven when the correct behaviour is achieved.

@rooeytoo My two goldens were poopeaters. I just had to speak firmly to them and they knew. I used my voice.

@marinelife I trained her that way, so the fact that maybe she performs this action twice a year and needs a reminder, I don’t think that constitutes it not working. Dogs, like children (and all humans), will do wrong things no matter how much they know right from wrong. Showing her the right thing to do is pointless because she does know the right thing to do, she is just choosing not to. In that situation, I feel the only thing to do is discipline the dog. Would you tell a person who got in a fight that fighting is wrong, when they already know this? IMO no, they get sent to jail.

@Adirondackwannabe Thank my stars and stripes my dog is not a poo eater.

@Ponderer983 NSFW: When they first showed up (they were abandoned) I thought it might be good to give them a ride. They were freaked out. One threw up on the other in the car, and the other one immediately threw up as well. Guess what they had been eating? Lots and lots of it too. The most gross cleanup ever.

@Buttonstc, are you saying that you are allowing your dog to have free reign over the house when you leave and that is when he has an accident? If so, I might be inclined to crate him when I was gone.

The only dog I have had as an adult was an Australian shepherd. He was never crated nor did he have accidents in the house. I don’t think I would or could have rubbed his nose in his poop if he did trip up and poo in the house though. I loved that dog and he loved me and wanted to work and please me. It would have broken his big heart if I had been mean to him.

There has to be a better way. I can imagine how upset it makes you to come home and he’s made a stinky mess in the floor, but there has to be a better way than rubbing it in his nose. Poor doggie. Poor @Buttonstc.

@Adirondackwannabe Ohhh maannnn!!! And you kept them lol. My dog threw up in the car on the way home too, but not poop filled, thank you baby jesus! How long ddid that take to get the stench out of the car?

@Ponderer983 The smell is part of me forever. Think hold breath, head in car, clean, gag, gag, pull out and try not to vomit. But they were the best dogs ever. The car smelled for a month at least. :).

Well, I’m just going to clean it up and not make a big fuss now since too much time has passed.

But you’ll have a hard time convincing me that this was an “accident.”

For any who missed it the first time I said it: THIS WAS DEFINITELY NOT DIARRHEA !

And I don’t buy the theory that he forgot it a few moments later.

@gailcalled

This was not a GI problem. This was a bratty protest and if I had a preteen or teenage child (the rough equivalent age to this 5–6 yr. old dog) who decided that taking a dump in the middle of the living room was a valid form of protest, of course I wouldn’t rub his nose in it. I wouldn’t have to since he’d get a bucket of water and cleaning supplies placed in his hands with the instructions to do a good job cleaning it up. And he would be responsible for cleaning all the bathrooms in the rest of the house for the next six months. I doubt he’d try that tactic again for his next protest. Unfortunately that’s not an option with a dog.

@marinelife

Believe me, if there were a crate anywhere around, he’d definitely be in it. But that would pretty much have to be 24/7 since this was not done when I was out of the house.

I was here and all he had to do was scratch on the door or do his little wiggle dance to signal he needed to go out. He CHOSE not to do that.

And, as mentioned, he had just been taken out less than three hours prior. And he clearly had plenty of time then since I was puttering around by the garage, getting the mail etc. for around 20 mins. or so and he had clearly finished since he went back to sit by the door to go back in the house, as he normally does to signal that he’s finished.

He pulls the same nonsense with his owner (my landlord) if he’s in a snit. Occasionally we go out to grab a bite to eat. And anytime other than the hot summer the dog comes along since he loves going for rides. At the restaurant, he just lies down and takes a nap while we are inside and everybody is happy.

And my landlord always takes him out to bathroom prior to leaving and we are gone 1–1½ hours at the absolute most.

But in summer he can’t be left in a hot car while we are eating.

So, guess what he leaves in the middle of the living room to let his owner know his extreme displeasure at not going for a ride ? And keep in mind, he had been taken out immediately prior to our leaviing. He doesnt leave his little protest every single time, but often enough to make his point.

So was that the owners fault for leaving him “too long” ? I hardly think so.

@syz I read the link you posted about the dog guilt thing. BUT I also read a good portion of the readers comments in response and it was pretty clear that some dogs have no guilt about it at all (which makes sense if they’re basically being bratty).

So, today it’s clearly been way too much time has passed between the infraction and now so even yelling would be pointless.

But if he pulls the same crap tomorrow afternoon, there will definitely be some yelling and ushering outside. No nose rubbing but definitely a harsh tone of voice. (I’m not by nature a yeller-screamer type but something needs to be done)

And, sorry @coloma, but no one can convince me that he’ll be totally clueless about why. Especially if it’s a few short hours since he last went out to potty.

This is not a confused little puppy nor a dog with diarrhea who can’t help it. This is an adult dog who’s pissed off because things don’t currently suit his wants (the same as when he doesn’t get his car ride in the hot summer.)

However, I do appreciate everyone’s input (lurve for all) on this issue and you have made a good case for why rubbing his nose on it would be cruel and ineffective. But a good dose of stern disapproval never killed anybody, dogs included :)

BTW

I definitely believe in positive reinforcement and every time Ive taken him out and he does his business I enthusiastically tell him what a good doggie he is and pet him liberally.

@Buttonstc I also read a good portion of the readers comments in response and it was pretty clear that some dogs have no guilt about it at all You missed the point of the research – dogs don’t feel guilt at all, they are merely well or poorly trained. Guilt is an anthropomorphism.

@Buttonstc, so this isn’t your dog but your landlord’s dog?

I’m sorry if I’m asking something you’ve already answered, but why are you keeping your landlord’s dog in your home?

@bkcunningham

No, this is not my dog. Believe me, if it were, things would be a WHOLE LOT different.

(This is my landlords dog whom I’m taking care of while he is in the hospital for IV antibiotics for an infection. He’s diabetic so they need to treat it aggressively.).

I’ve also taken care of this dog in the past several years when he’s been away at weekend conferences.

I don’t currently have dogs of my own but have in the past. I had a German Shepherd whom I trained myself. He was already potty trained when I got him at around 16 mos. but no other training at al.

That’s not really an option with a dog of that size. After about six months, he would sit and wait patiently to eat until I gave the command, would heel perfectly while walking and would immediately lie down on voice command if I needed to see out the back window while driving. He was a great dog.

There was one time when he got sick with diahrreah and he just couldn’t hold it because I was teaching at the time and gone to work.

Poor dog looked so forlorn with his tail tucked between his legs, there was absolutely no way I could chastise him and it never even occured to me to do so. It certainly wasnt his fault He was sick. And the remedy was a trip to the vet.

But that’s so totally different from the current situation. And if this were my dog, he would definitely be crated.

And the very first time he tried this little tactic to register his protest over whatever, it would not have been casually overlooked.

But it’s not my dog.

But other than this bit of brattiness, he’s overall a very sweet little dog and not difficult to deal with at all. So…..

@bk

I don’t mind the Q. It’s my landlords dog and my landlords house. We all live here. Two humans and two pets. It’s basically a house-share type of situation. So the dog is in his home that he’s used to and I’m not a stranger to him.

And it’s also nice to know that if I’m ever hospitalized that there’s a fellow animal lover here to take care of my kitty in my absence. Cats are fairly self sufficient but still, it’s nice to know that someone will care for her like I would.

It sounds like a difficult situation, @Buttonstc, and I wish you and your landlord the very best in the difficult situation of his health and your aggravation with the poor doggie. I’m sure the dog is acting out in confusion with his owner being sick and away and perhaps he is confused with the pack order when his master is away.

Even if that is the answer to why, I’m sorry it doesn’t address how to help. If it were me, I’d have a long talk with the dog and let him know I’m the leader when his pack leader is away. I’d tell him that with lots of love and consistency though. Good luck my friend.

Even when his owner is here, my impression is that the dog is the pack leader or there really isn’t any clearly established pack leader at all :)

That’s why I said that if it were my dog, this would have been totally different right from the start. This type of behavior would have been nipped in the bud.

My GS definitely knew who was in charge. Not with any type of cruelty or anything but just plain consistency of training and clear boundaries.

I don’t believe that any pet (or child) can be spoiled with too much love and affection. But I definitely believe that it can be spoiled with too much permissiveness (however well meaning) which is oft mistaken for love. The two are not synonymous.

The same is true when dealing with children. Both kids and pets are happiest in an atmosphere of plenty of love and praise within the framework of clearly established boundaries and rules. This way they have a predictable set of parameters by which their behavior is guided and they can predict with certainty the consequences of their actions both positive and negative.

Extreme permissiveness with little guidance results in chaos and neuroses. Call me old fashioned if you will, but that’s what I’ve seen work :)

I think he is missing his owner and yes, he is sending you a message and not one you like but I doubt it is about being evil and mean to you. He is probably feeling vulnerable and lost. His dad is missing and he is with people he doesn’t know. When my first marriage broke down and my ex hadn’t seen my son (then about 5) for a while, he started wetting the bed. I put this in the same category.

I agree with you, @Buttonstc, 100 percent about boundaries, permissiveness and the framework of love and praise. But there has to be a better way to solve this than rubbing the dog’s own fecal matter in his face.

What is the other pet in the home?

How old is this dog who is causing you the trouble?

@bk

The other pet is my cat, who is obviously not a factor in any of this.

The dog is about 5–6 yrs old. Fortunately he’s a small dog so they’re not huge poops. But that’s not really the point at all.

I already said that I am NOT going to do the nose rubbing thing. I had not yet done it when I asked the Q, and really had never even contemplated it in the past with any of the dogs I had owned years ago. I was aware that it was frowned upon and wanted a more thorough explanation of why.

The well reasoned responses have convinced me that it it is cruel and serves no useful purpose.

Yeesh. Doesn’t anybody read pertinent responses anymore :) jk.

@Bellatrix

I know it’s not evil, just spoiled and bratty because he does the EXACT SAME THING when he’s pissed off at HIS OWNER not taking him in along in the car.

And he’s certainly not with strangers. He sees me every single day and has for several years. He’s in his own home in his familiar surroundings with someone who is definitely not a stranger.

Of course he misses his owner. But at times he even refuses to tolerate his owner’s absence for an hour or less. Pooping in the middle of the living room won’t bring him back like magic.

Even as I’m writing this, I’m realizing that he’s been allowed to get away with this by his owner so often in the past, that it shouldn’t be so surprising that he’s doing it now.

I haven’t mentioned this to him at all while he’s in the hospital since he has enough problems to deal with healthwise and it serves no useful purpose at all.

I get what you’re getting at by the analogy with your 5 yr. old but the child was wetting the bed in his sleep, unconsciously and clearly from anxiety.

But he didn’t choose to take a dump in the middle of the living room. There is a significant difference.

I do have sympathy for this dog and have been consistently spending more time with him each day holding him over my shoulder like a baby like his owner does, petting him, reassuring him etc. As I said he’s a cute little dog and not unpleasant to be with.

But bratty is bratty regardless of whether it’s with his owner who tolerates his poop protests without consequence or with me (who will be giving him a stern talking to and an immediate trip outside from now on).

I have a hunch that if your son had elected to take a dump in the middle of the living room, that you would have had a rather stern talk with him as well, regardless of how upset he was about the situation with his father.

@Buttonstc I wouldn’t have rubbed his nose in it and you call it bratty but it sounds like a manifestation of anxiety to me. Not pleasant for you or appropriate I agree, but still perhaps his way of communicating he is not happy. He can’t speak and tell you how he feels and you don’t speak dog. So, perhaps the crate is the only answer or at least banishing him from certain areas of the house so you can contain the problem. Good luck with it anyway. I can imagine and empathise with your frustration. Even though I knew why my son was wetting the bed and was empathic, getting up every morning and stripping his sheets off before going to work was wearing very thin.

@Buttonstc: I never mentioned pre-teen or teen-aged children;

“Occasionally, we adults also have GI accidents, don’t we? Think of how you would feel if someone rubbed your nose in it?”

Believe me, if there were a crate it would definitely be in use.

In the past, I’ve closed him in his room (his owners bedroom) figuring that’s like his little den and he wouldn’t mess in there.

Unfortunately that resulted in a whole lot of barking, yowling and finally a full on assault on the door trying to claw his way out.

After his owner is thoroughly recovered and things are back to normal, I may raise the issue of getting a crate.

Realistically, I don’t have high hopes about that since his owner never disciplines him regarding his poopy protests after being left for as little as an hour while out to dinner.

As I said before, his owner clearly is not the leader of the pack and seems to be just fine with that.

It is what it is.

@gailcalled

Let me repeat again what I’ve already stated SEVERAL TIMES: I am not going to do the nose rubbing thing. I was ASKING about it.

The only reason I brought up teenage kids is because that’s a roughly analogous age to this dog. And if they thought it a great idea to protest their curfew (or whatever issue they were pissed off about) by taking a dump in the living room, I would make sure they changed their mind about that ever again in the future.

There is NO diahrrea or GI issue here This is a protest the same as it has been in the past when his owner was absent for around an hour going out to dinner And the dog was pissed off because he didn’t get taken for a car ride. Even tho he’d been let out to go potty shortly before owner leaving. No GI issue at all. The owner knows his own dog. Even he recognizes this as brattiness and said so explicitly.

What is so terribly unclear about that ?

I may have just been pushed to my limit. A dog deliberately shitting in the house? Deliberate?
A dog is not a little person in a furry outfit.
The dog has no idea what “poop” is, much less why you are rubbing it’s nose in it.
And when you shout “NO” at them, all they think is that you are barking.
You can not train an animal to do something with negative reinforcement.
You can only train it by positively reinforcing the the behaviour you want.
When it comes to house training a dog, it takes weeks of dedicated and focused procedures, at the expense of your other diversions. If you don’t have the time, patience, or commitment, you do not deserve a dog.
Sorry, but this is one thing that really gets to me. I really hate the level of ignorance that I too often see when it comes to people training and disciplining dogs. Dogs are really cool animals, and they deserve better than they often get from their owners.

For many years dogs were trained with the Kohler method, most police and military dogs still are. It rewards good behaviour and punishes bad. Positive reinforcement is an excellent method for teaching a new behaviour, takes forever using it to break bad behaviour. There is no one size fits all method of dog training.

@Dutchess_III. Your dogs sound so sweet!

@Ponderer983 I do not equate, and neither should you, a dog to a thinking adult human. In terms of discipline and their thinking long-term. What you are doing is cruel and unusual punishment. The only thing anyone is getting out of it is you getting some perverse satisfaction.

I work with a lot of dogs that, according to the owners, have started messing in the house for no reason after years of going outside and, nine times out of ten, we find a reason other than “being bratty” for this change in behaviour. Usually it is anxiety based even in dogs that don’t usually have a nervous disposition. I have learnt never to assume that I know what is going on inside my dogs heads and why they start doing things they have never done. In my experience, punishing a dog in this way will only cause the problem to get worse especially if there is an underlying anxiety issue.

Also, before you say “my dog is definitely not anxious about anything” which I also here a lot, often suddenly messing in the house is the only obvious sign they are giving of anxiety.

I have just read your other posts about his owner being away. In that case I would put money on it that he isn’t being bratty at all. He is anxious as there has been a change in his routine.

@syz guilt is NOT an anthroromorphism. Not in some dogs.

That dog didn’t deliberately poop in the house. A spiteful dog? That would be an earth-shattering event.

It needed to go to the bathroom, couldn’t wait any longer, and just did it. Probably felt much better afterwards.

@Dutchess_III I was recently given a good reason why dogs don’t feel guilt (at least, in the same sense that we do) by a behavourist who I would consider a bit of a mentor to me. She said, the reason humans feel guilt is because of how their actions will affect someone else and that if no person or living being is affected there would be no need for guilt. For example (in very simple terms) I would feel guilty for eating the last piece of my dad’s chocolate that he had left in the fridge for later because that would mean he would be without and I know how much he enjoys it. If the chocolate didn’t belong to anyone then I wouldn’t mind eating the last piece so that action would not make me feel guilty. Same action but different feeling towards it depending on who else it affects.

The “guilt” that you see in your dog is anxiety because, nine times out of ten, they know from previous experience that their action (ie: raiding the bin) affects them negatively. As much as we like to think that our animals do things only to please us, they don’t actually realise how them raiding the bin affects you, their owner. They don’t realise how irritating it is to have to clean up after that action, they only know that, for some reason, it affects them negatively (they get told off). The look that you see on your dogs face and body after he has done something that he has learnt will get him into trouble (lowered posture, ears down etc) are appeasment gestures. The less obvious appeasment gestures are lots of lip licking and yawning. He is anxious because he knows that he is going to get told off and so he offers you appeasment gestures which are his way of saying “I’m no threat, please don’t hurt me”.

The anxiety your dog is feeling because of something he has learnt gets him into trouble is not the same as guilt no matter how similar it looks to our own body language when we are feeling guilty.

I personally don’t care whether my dog feels guilt or anxiety, I just want the behaviour to stop. And I think my stance is more typical of the average dog owner than the academic approach.
If my dog learns that certain actions will mean punishment, then it learns not to do that action.
That is the desired result. Koehler said the greatest injustice is to have to repeatedly correct a dog for the same bad behaviour.

@Leanne1986 Thanks. That does make sense. I think guilt can be more complex for humans, but getting in trouble is a guilt motivator for us too. for example, Christians feel guilty about things (playing cards, dancing,whatever) because they’re afraid they’re going to hell. That isn’t affecting anyone but them.

@Dutchess_III Don’t religious people feel guilty because they feel they have let their god down though? And if they do just feel guilty because they worry about going to hell, is that guilt or just fear? My point is that dog emotions are far less complex than human emotions and their actions can often be whittled down to anxiety, relief and frustration (I recently went to a seminar and the audience threw loads of different behaviours at the speaker and she was able to explain every single behaviour using one of those three emotions!!!) whereas humans have hundreds of different emotions and behaviours to go with them and we often like to think we can see these exact same emotions in our pets.

@Leanne1986 I fully understand what you are saying. So, put it this way…when my dog pooped in the utility room she was feeling a great deal of anxiety over the “punishment” that she knew was coming, and it was a relief to her when it finally came down on her and she didn’t have to worry about it any more.

@Dutchess_III I felt that way as a kid from time to time when I knew I was going to get a bollocking for something but it hadn’t come to me yet!!!!!

On one hand you are saying dogs are not smart enough to understand nose rubbing but on the other hand it does have a many faceted thought process of anxiety because of an action causing a result that may or may not happen, then relief because it happens and is over. I have had many dogs that were above average intelligence, most akitas and bouvs are like that, but that’s a hell of a lot of thinking. And I never figured any of them was relieved after they were punished.

@Leanne1986 Oh yeah…We got the “Wait till your father gets home!” thing. The waiting was far worse than the actual punishment!

@rooeytoo I don’t believe that a dog is relieved after punishment, my last comment about feeling that way as a kid was a joke. I do believe that in a lot of cases a dog is likely to feel more anxiety after a nose rubbing which is why I don’t agree with it but you and I have had this argument before so let’s not go there again. Maybe relief wasn’t the right word, I believe contentment (free of anxiety or frustration) would be a better one if we are talking about one of the emotions that dogs can feel but a lot of what I have read/listened to recently claims that relief and contentment are one and the same for a dog. It has nothing to do with how smart they are, not having complex emotions like humans do has nothing to do with learning through consequence but those consequences will also determine whether a dog is more likely to be anxious or not which is why I tread carefully when it comes to “punishment”.

@rooeytoo Just like a person…my dog knew it was coming and dreaded it and was not content because of it. Dog can’t help but feel more relieved contented when it’s done and over with and they don’t have to worry feel anxiety over it any more. @Leanne1986 You messed up my whole post, man!!

@Dutchess_III Sorry!

I always thought I had smart dogs but I am not sure if they had complex multiple, contingent thought trains as you are describing. Maybe I had dumb dogs after all or perhaps I am not as much of an observant and intuitive trainer as I think I am. Glad the killers I have worked with didn’t know that!!!