General Question

ETpro's avatar

Shouldn't American Whites get busy integrating themselves?

Asked by ETpro (34581points) February 28th, 2013

Here’s a brief and humorous video from comedian Louis C.K. on where we white guys have been—still are, for that matter. But here’s a graphic clearly showing the demographic truth about where we’re heading. Isn’t it time all us white guys start learning to get along in the more diverse future we’re clearly heading into?

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44 Answers

marinelife's avatar

Ah, but we are. We are improving our racist attitudes and our young people are much more accepting of differences.

rebbel's avatar

Who are ”...we white guys….”?
The population on Fluther is a mixed one, I believe.

Edit: Could very well be that I am reading this wrong, I’d like to add.

livelaughlove21's avatar

I love Louis CK. “I’m not saying white people are better. But being white is clearly better. Who could even argue?” ... “And I’m a man. I’m a white man. (...) You can’t even hurt my feelings.” :)

My answer: Yes

Like Louis CK said, white people are going down. “But until then, weeeee!”

josie's avatar

In my world, it seems to already be happening.

The president could not have been elected with an exclusively non white vote. Plenty of white folks, including some of my friends, voted for him.
My girlfriend is not white. Doesn’t bother me or my white friends.
My younger son has a clear preference for latinas in his dating habits.
Just another day in the changing tides of history

Strauss's avatar

I think the chart illustrates the phenomenon that made necessary the re-branding of the Republican Party in the US. The GOP has, for the past several decades, been the party of the Conservative White Men (now better known as OWG’s, Old White Guys). Now that the “face” of the electorate is changing, the GOP seems to be as resistant to the change in power as they can possibly be.

livelaughlove21's avatar

@rebbel I wouldn’t read much into “we” here.

However, Fluther is not a representative sample of the population. Let’s keep it in the US – we’re going to get answers like the ones above because the people here are mostly liberal, open-minded people when it comes to race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. I live in the Southeast US and, let me assure you, there are plenty of people who are not nearly as up-to-date on these issues. Racism is still thriving quite well, especially down here.

tom_g's avatar

Relevant – more great Louis CK on race.

rooeytoo's avatar

With regard to how it could be better for him specifically, he could be taller, thinner, have a good head of hair, lean jaw and just be more brad pitt looking.

But with regard to the rest of humanity, I learned a long time ago to take people one at a time. There are plenty of good in all demographics and always some bad to go along with the good. I don’t have to like everyone but it is good to get along with them.

As for being non white in the USA or Australia, there are definite benefits to that as well. To deny that is blind. And that is part of what I think creates racism. I think all should be treated equally. Stop placing emphasis on differences and instead dwell on the similarities, that applies to male/female white/nonwhite. Who cares, if you pull your weight and don’t stab me in the back, we can get along.

wundayatta's avatar

Frankly, I’m not sure I see white privilege really ending simply due to demographic factors. It would be one thing if we were in South Africa and had apartheid policies. But we don’t. We have wealth and that buys privilege. And it will continue to buy privilege for white folks, no matter what gender they are.

Indeed, money will buy privilege for anyone, no matter what color or gender they are. The thing about money is that it tends to stay in the family. The best predictor for having a high income future is having parents with high income. It’s a class issue. People who value money, value the things it takes to get money, and know how to get those things and confer them on their children. Like education. Like capital. Like entrepreneurial values. Although those are harder to pass on than money and education.

We are integrated into society already. And we have more of what brings status than most other demographic categories. This will change. Women and people of other skin hues will slowly gain more power and money, but they won’t be displacing white men. They’ll just be joining them.

On the other hand, white men may be giving up their power. They seem to have a thing against education. And to the extent that white men are getting less education than others, they will start to fall back in terms of social power. Now, we could argue that males are being discriminated against in the education system and that is why they have a problematic future, but that’s a discussion for another question.

woodcutter's avatar

How are white people not integrating, exactly?

Do you think liking rap would help us?

wundayatta's avatar

@woodcutter Liking rap? That’s hysterical. lololol!

ETpro's avatar

@marinelife That’s an excellent point. “The times, they are a changing.”

@rebbel I hope nobody felt excluded by my wording of the question and its details, as that certainly was not my intention. I happen to be an American WASP and an Old White Guy all in one fell swoop. So when I said “we white guys” I meant only myself and other whites guys in areas where racial prejudice has been strong.

@livelaughlove21 Louis C.K. has a great comedic style. Here’s a clip where he answers audience questions, including what it took to get to where he is.

@josie Yeah, this $hit doesn’t exist. But thanks be we are seeing a swing away from it. Still, the one thing that Dr. Henry Makow is right about is that Obama did lose the white vote.

@Yetanotheruser The GOP is actually in the midst of changing, but the change takes the form of purging from the party ranks of all who show even the tiniest sign of centrism. In the face of a brewing demographic disaster, they seem determined to reinvent Jim Crow. Their efforts in 32 states they control to push legislation making it harder for minorities to register and to vote should be proof enough of that.

@tom_g Thanks for the link.

@rooeytoo I agree that it’s good for individuals to focus on how we’re alike and not how we’re different. But I must disagree vehemently with any claim that it’s an advantage to be black or Hispanic in America. Just 12% of the US population is black, but look who goes to prison for nonviolent drug offenses. Look who owns their own home. Look at the unemployment rates by race. Look at poverty levels. Even worse, look at the share of wealth.

I don’t know. I’m having a real hard time seeing the huge advantage US dark skin confers on Americans. I’m with Louis C.K. If I’m around next decade and they ask me, I’m signing up for one more hitch as a white guy.

@wundayatta Interesting observation about education. And it’s the same crowd trying to reinstate America’s version of Apartheid (we did have that for 100 years after the end of slavery) who are so determined to undermine education. Strange.

@woodcutter I think I’ve pretty well covered that above. But see this.

woodcutter's avatar

I wish people would stop using showmen as serious commentary. They have to be funny or they bomb. To bomb in the entertainment biz is death to a comedian. They all tend to single out very extreme instances and mock them in order to get a laugh from a targeted audiences/ followers. As if these short story/ jokes examples are commonplace. I worry these people are taken seriously.

ETpro's avatar

@woodcutter I provided plenty of statistical data that should qualify as serious commentary in my response above. It sure seems to back up what Louis C.K. was saying. Comedy can be one of the most potent forms of political discourse. I hope we never stop listening to what bright people have to say just because they don’t have the right pedigree to say it.

woodcutter's avatar

The reason more blacks are in jail because of dope is because they use drugs? No way. Many of them aren’t very smart when it comes to getting high. They will imbibe right out in the open out on the front stoop and whine racism when 4–0 rolls up on them and busts them. Get real. White people tend to be a bit smarter because even though they use illegal drugs as often as the next guy, they will get stoned out behind a dumpster and save themselves a lot of headaches. Whitey gets busted and cooperates with the cops. The black guy gets busted and decides he wants to fight with the cops and loses and then racks up a shit ton of additional charges on top of the obvious. You know it’s true. Even though the war on drugs is stupid the fact remains they are still illegal. Do any of us really think people should not be prosecuted because there are already a huge number of people in jail who look similar?

rebbel's avatar

@ETpro Understood. I assumed such, by the way.

ETpro's avatar

@woodcutter Please continue. You’re being a poster boy for my case. Let’s see, you’re saying that no racism is involved, it’s just that blacks are inherently less intelligent than whites, and more belligerent. The statistic cited was for non-violent crimes, by the way.

But overall, blacks represent 12–13% of the US population but 40.1% of its prison population. This when white drug users far outnumber black drug users. If you want to explain that inequity based on blacks being inherently more stupid than whites, you must think they have the IQ of snails.

woodcutter's avatar

@ETpro Its not that blacks are inferior intelligence wise, its more like well, they tend to have have less impulse control. You are taking what I have posted and assigned it a bigoted view. Accusing me of saying all blacks are like that. Shame on you. I have told you this many times here before and I’ll do it again…..you are smarter than that.

tom_g's avatar

@woodcutter: “Its not that blacks are inferior intelligence wise, its more like well, they tend to have have less impulse control.”

Wow. Did you really just assert that “blacks” tend to have “less impulse control”? That is hands down the most unfounded and racist thing I have read on Fluther to date.

@woodcutter: “You are taking what I have posted and assigned it a bigoted view.”

Can I take your previous sentence and assign it a “bigoted view”?

squirbel's avatar

Wow. So woodcutter -

Are you asserting that “black genes” are the cause of “less impulse control”? Seriously. That is the only way an entire racial population could have the same characteristic.

You are uneducated, and you speak foolishness.

Skin color is skin color. It has no linkage to behaviors. There are no genes linked to skin color which present as a behavior. If so, please provide scholarly studies which prove this.

Please redeem your intelligence.

Gabby101's avatar

I think the clip was funny, but unfortunate that many white folks still see that as reality. We all need to respect diversity and treat everyone with the respect they deserve. This is not just something for Caucasians to learn. If you’ve ever lived in an area where non-whites are the majority, you will see that those who have been victims of discrimination have no problem perpetuating the crime against others (cycle of abuse?). Growing up white in a very white part of the country, diversity/sensitivity training was always a part of our curriculum. We were taught not to judge people based on the color of their skin, religion, etc. This kind of training needs to be extended to all students and we need to stop giving minorities a free pass on racist behavior – racism damages no matter the perpetuator.

Gabby101's avatar

@woodcutter – the common denominator is poverty, not skin color. More and more evidence is surfacing that “bad outcomes” correlate more strongly to family income than skin color. Halle Berry committed a hit and run and received a slap on the hand. She could present herself credibly and had the money to hire the right lawyers to convince people of her ridiculous story. If you and I did that, we would not have gotten off so lightly (regardless of our skin color).

woodcutter's avatar

Ok folks calm down. That was a test. I knew if I posted what we all know…it would get the liberal chest beaters on the warpath. You guys are too predictable, but fun..Regardless of the reasons why, whether they be the environment certain people come up in or socio- economic status of defendants, the truth is blacks are involved in more crime than anyone . Stop race baiting…again. If any of you have been anywhere except in front of a computer any time in your life, you will have made the same observations as I, and millions of others. The difference here is, I have the courage to say it. ”” see what is there”. Anyone really think there is conspiracy afoot of the police rounding up thousands of blacks for internment ? Blame it on the whites for having better luck with lawyering up when the blacks settle for public defenders, or confess outright, or generations of soul destroying taxpayer handouts causing atrophy of the ambition drive coupled with thousands of deadbeat fathers who impregnate multiple women like a badge of honor resulting in several generations of aimless black youth and ignorant parents. I state this because “I see what is there”. Just because I refuse to lay everything out to justify what I see doesn’t mean its not fact. I don’t tip toe around when i point out things. You who have been here any length of time already should know this. You know I am right. If you want Political Correctness as part of the dialog and the facts at the same time, you might as well try pushing a chain down the road.

It can’t be done.

rooeytoo's avatar

Plus if you keep telling someone they are downtrodden and a victim while you are handing out money (but not enough to provide the level of living that everyone feels they are entitled to have), it breeds resentment and becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

There are also plenty of success stories coming from less than optimum backgrounds and neighborhoods, but it takes guts and a hell of a work ethic. It is always easier for rich kids with parents who provide models but the opportunity is there for all.

woodcutter's avatar

How many white people do you think were involved? http://articles.latimes.com/1993-06-22/sports/sp-5800_1_chicago-bulls.

See even when their team wins it all, they still feel the need to kill someone .This is just one corroborating example of that now famous “impulse control” comment.

questions?

wundayatta's avatar

That article said nothing about the race of people involved, and yet you are positive there were no white people involved? And you deny this is racist thinking? Or are you proud of being prejudiced and unconcerned with facts?

woodcutter's avatar

@wundayatta If you were sincere about this and not afraid to scan other links out of fear you would see what I am telling is true you wouldn’t have posted just then. Hmmmm….lets see. Probably 90% of the hooligans involved in the treachery that evening got away without incarceration. Oh I’m sure there were some whites involved in that public display of rage but i would be willing to bet the black to white ratio of all perticipants would be similar to that of the prison population. Do us a favor and research this if it means enough to ya. You won’t like what you see, and that’s giving the cherry pick option.

ETpro's avatar

@woodcutter The first rule of holes. When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. I’m not distorting your quotes, I am copying ans pasting them. “Its not that blacks are inferior intelligence wise, its more like well, they tend to have have less impulse control.”

Written like that, it appears to apply to all blacks. You may not mean it that way, but that’s how you wrote it. It’s a fact that most blacks in America in its early days were slaves. It was a serious crime to teach a black to read or write. After slavery was abolished, we had effective apartheid in the South for another 100 years. It was nearly impossible for a black to buy property due to redlining. Blacks did attend public schools, but incredibly inferior ones designed to turn out a cadre of step-n-fetch-it cheap labor. Poll taxes and bogus literacy tests made it impossible for most blacks to ever register to vote, so they had no political voice in trying to improve these conditions. Given all that, I think it is a tremendous tribute to their resilience that people like Dr. Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks emerged from those downtrodden generation.

But the effects of 200 years of slavery and another 100 years of apartheid don’t disappear overnight. Endemic poverty, single parent homes, poor education and a lack of understanding of the value of education remain problems among poor blacks today. I know crime rates are high in primarily black ghettos. They are because we whites, we ruling class, engineered it to be so. But I also know that’s no excuse to judge all people as a group. Rather, it is reason to set things right, and that is what this question was really all about.

@tom_g & @squirbel Thanks for having my back.

@Gabby101 I totally agree that racism is not an exclusively white problem. Here in Boston, I am often exposed to rude behavior and intimidation that’s based on my skin color. But the statistics I shared about who wins and who loses in this nation stand in stark proof that whites are not victims of discrimination in anywhere near the measure blacks are.

@woodcutter I’ve got to go with @wundayatta on that. You chose the the link. It happened back in 1993. If you want to assert that all the hundreds arrested were all blacks, the burden of proof is on you. You do the search and provide data. When the violence erupted in Vancouver after the Boston Bruins won the NHL Stanley Cup in 2011, the TV coverage showed most of the rowdies to be white. Stupidity and drunken disorder knows no racial bounds.

tom_g's avatar

@woodcutterThis? That is your response? Pretend for a minute that you went to college and were forced to backup your assertions with more than delusions of grandeur about your ability to post what “we all know”. Remember – you’d be marked down for appealing to “common sense” without backing up your claim. Recall that paranoid rants about “political correctness” would be embarrassing in this context.

There is nothing in your comment that can even be responded to because you’re not saying anything. If it’s something “we all know”, then back off from your victimized paranoid horseshit for a second and lay out out your brilliant treatise on race. Note: I’ll be paying particular attention to your treatment of class, so make sure you address that. Thanks.

wundayatta's avatar

@woodcutter Just to reiterate what the others said. It is your responsibility to do the research, since you are making the assertions. You must provide the data to back it up. Otherwise, as is currently the case, you look like someone who shoots off his mouth while making up a story. It’s fiction. Not suitable for basing action on. In other words, you’re not persuading anyone, and making yourself look foolish in the process.

You were advised to stop digging. I’d also advise you to stop taking more rope. Really think about what you are saying. Try to apply logic.

avaeve's avatar

There isn’t a single peer-reviewed study that finds racism to be the driving factor behind imprisonment, unemployment, poverty and wealth gaps. If there is, I would love to see it, otherwise it sounds like you guys are peddling the same bullshit as woodcutter.

The main cause for imprisoning someone for drugs is possession of large quantities of drugs and/or manufacturing, or distributing, or trafficking. Gangs control all categories. Most gang members are black and hispanic gangs by race or youth in gangs by race

There is about 1.4 million minorities in prison. Around 500,000 are for drug offense (including whites here). There are about 1.5 million gang members in the country. Even though whites abuse drugs more than minorities, they’re last in line of the drug-chain and police use their resources to bust those that are in control.

squirbel's avatar

@avaeve

Mass Imprisonment and the Life Course: Race and Class Inequality in U.S. Incarceration

THE IMPRISONMENT PENALTY PAID BY YOUNG, UNEMPLOYED BLACK AND HISPANIC MALE OFFENDERS

Trends in Black-White Imprisonment: Changing Conceptions of Race or Changing Patterns of Social Control?

3 minutes of searching, copying, and pasting.

Before you make a claim such as “There isn’t a single peer-reviewed study that finds racism to be the driving factor behind imprisonment…” – understand that there are individuals for every single interest in the world. There is always someone researching something.

squirbel's avatar

I have the unlucky misfortune to be of two minority races – hispanic and black. I appear more hispanic but to dumb whites I am always classified as black. Why does this upset me?

Because being black is seen as being negative. Who is telling me my existence is negative?

Society. It is deeply engrained, so much so – no one never needs to say it to my face. It just is.

rooeytoo's avatar

@squirbel – is “dumb whites” a racist remark?

squirbel's avatar

No, it isn’t. It is speaking of a subset of people who happen to be white, who in my experience, consistently refer to me in a stupid way, without observing.

It does not refer to the entirety of the white population.

For the most part, it is mostly southern whites who piss me off.

If I hadn’t revealed that I were a minority, would you even have asked that question?

___________

Oh, and a nugget of information. Even here on the internet most black and minorities are afraid to divulge that they are. Minorities are the last to offer photos of themselves, preferring to hide behind mystery and subterfuge – forcing people to engage with their minds. Too often we’ve been written off and talked to differently once people know. Why is that?

rooeytoo's avatar

I would have asked that question no matter who said it because to me it is racist. Same as if I said “dumb blacks, reds, yellows.”

I am an old short white woman and let me tell you there is plenty of discrimination against me, it is subtle but it is there. I hate it and I fight it at every turn. I hate being called “guys.” I am always complaining about that. I hate it said that a woman has balls when she is brave and bold. I was just told recently on fluther that it is just a saying and I should live with it.

Here’s the thing, you only have one life and you can buy into the victim shit and let it rule your life. You can let resentment drive you to despair, drink or just not realizing your abilities, or you can say fuck it and get on with being the best you can be. And really there are plenty of opportunities if you want them and if you are good at what you do, your goodness will be realized and you will make it. When that happens, put your hand out to help the next one who may not be as strong as you.

This superior white male business is perpetuated so they can continue feeling superior. They keep telling others they are victims because if you believe that, it makes it easier for them to maintain their supposed superiority.

squirbel's avatar

“but to dumb whites I am always classified as black.”

Read it in context – it implies that there are other categories of whites. So your argument does not apply. It is not racist.

Those phrases you referred to are not discrimination. They do not prevent you from enjoying parts of life in society. They are merely personal annoyances.

Yes, we have only one life. People do not buy into the victimhood. It is forced on the strong.

I am one of the strong ones who does not get held down by the racism. But avoiding the damage does not stop it from existing.Being stronger than the biases does not make the biases fall into nothingness. Otherwise – what would I be being strong against?

I observe what I am fighting against. And I share it with you. Am I going to be called a victim for sharing what I experience, or can we talk about this and come to an agreement and move forward with what we know?

Will you acknowledge that as a white woman you have more advantages [interest rates, land, etc] than I do as a minority woman?

avaeve's avatar

Race, Ethnicity and the criminal justice system

_“A large body of research has been produced on race effects at all stages of the criminal justice system, but the empirical evidence suggests complex interactions rather than simplistic processes. Some studies find direct or overt race discrimination in the criminal
justice system, while other studies find race effects in specific situations, contexts, or jurisdictions—or find no race effects at all. Without a doubt, great racial disparities and overrepresentation of minorities exist at all decision points in criminal justice processing,
and have significant social consequences, but they may not all reflect race biases.
The direct influence of race is statistically insignificant for the most serious offenses when
legally relevant variables (such as severity of the offense, or prior criminal record) are included in analyses; in these cases, the race differences in sentencing are explained by race differences in offending.“_
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-

Right that takes care of imprisonment. Got any peer-reviewed studies on racism being the reason for minority unemployment, poverty and wealth gaps?

rooeytoo's avatar

@squirbel – I am watching CNN news. There is a black man (with a hideous hairdo) an asian looking woman and a hispanic woman.

Victimhood is a choice in adults, and they come in all colors and genders. It was you who said you are being viewed negatively, that is being a victim.

And I would never deny that a kid brought up with parents on welfare has a hard time breaking the nexus but as an adult you have choices. It is the decision of the individual which route to take. Good for you for being strong, don’t forget to put your hand back so you can help someone else.

squirbel's avatar

Accounting for the Black–White Wealth Gap

I really do not wish to provide for everything that can be easily found via scholar.google.com. Just input the keywords: like I stated before – for every interest on earth, there is someone researching it seriously.

@roo

And the point of your opening statement in your last response? I am not seeing the purpose. So you saw several minorities on television. Is that an aberration? A surprise? I have no clue what you intended.

I am not talking about people on welfare. Your mention of welfare makes me question if you believe all minorities are on welfare or assisted by the state. Do you?

I myself have never been assisted. A lot are not so lucky… but that is the result of the lack of land ownership among minorities. Land ownership leads to a domino effect of other societal benefits.

ETpro's avatar

@avaeve This is not about peer reviewed studies and what factors produce the reality we see before us. The reality is there is a dramatic advantage to being white in America. We can delve into what factors drive the dramatic disadvantages of being black or Hispanic here. That’s useful to figure out how to right things. But it is garbage to trot it out as a defense against there being any racial divide.

rooeytoo's avatar

@squirbel – wow you are good at presuming and assuming. All I am saying is that for most people life is not easy. You sound like you are going good and that is wonderful!

woodcutter's avatar

You really believe those blacks in prison haven’t suffered from some kind of impulse control? If so, it appears that you think they were all put there unjustly? A conspiracy perhaps? The whites in there have the same problem. A murder and rape and assault are the same no matter who commits it. In fact if a white guy kills a minority victim its a hate crime, right? If a minority kills a white victim it’s just plain old regular murder, I suppose. Not as bad? So to make thinks more even and you more satisfied, we should try harder to cram more whites in there to have a proper amount based on population percentages? I thought we were discussing the prison population disparity (at least I was) and somehow this as predicted has morphed into the labeling of all minorities into a unflattering group. I see what is there, and I have no plans to link fuck my responses. You all know what I say is true but unless I take the time to hold your hands to prove what you know would happen, then it’s not true life? I take real world experience as all I need to make these assertions. The links are all out there I’m sure but I’m not wasting time playing the link score game with you all.

ETpro's avatar

@woodcutter You are still missing the point. I realize that many blacks currently in prison are they because they had problems with impulse control. The question is, why is that. Are blacks just racially inferior or is it because of a history of slavery and then Jim Crow laws and apartheid leaving most of them the victims of generational poverty, poor education, and often single parent childhoods?

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