How can a religion justify murder in the name of God?

There is a long and glorious history going back for hundreds if not thousands of years. Why change now?

Because worshiping the One True God in the Proper Manner makes you The Only Important People.

I’m afraid bookish1 just nailed it. That combined with a mentality that it’s always been this way and it makes it clear why these things go on. It would take some real balls for someone to stand up and challenge the system and how things are done, and they’d probably face equal danger from their own religion as well as the one they’re opposing.

@Adirondackwannabe : Kind of like how Gandhi was murdered by a Hindu fundamentalist…

There are many interpretations of religion and Gods, and as many ways to follow them as there are people in the world. On this particular site, you are welcome to PM for my Christian point of view on the subject if you choose.

The only way to solve disagreement is by reasoned argument, or force.
God worship is irrational.
Thus, there can be no agreement among reasonable people about how to do it and certainly no hope what so ever for unreasonable people. That leaves force, always a favorite tool of the irrational.
Killing is force to the extreme.
That is how it is justified by those who commit such murder.

Many religions that have prohibitions against killing only apply that prohibition to humans, while the first step in warfare is to dehumanize the opposition. It was easy to enslave Africans because they were considered animals. Those of different beliefs have no souls, therefore are not human, and thus can be killed with impunity.

In the case of the Sunnis and the Shiites, it goes back to the succession of leadership after Mohammed’s death.

It’s had a lot of practice.

I wondered the same thing so did a little research to gain insite in the the Christian religious point of view.
What I found out is that the view held is that there is a difference between killing and murder and while God will not only condone but sancify killing for certain transgressions, murder is not permitted. There is even an ongoing debate as to whether the Commandment is “Thou shalt not kill” or “Thou shalt not murder”. It makes a difference, particularly when almost immediately after receiving the commandments Moses ordered the death of 3000 men, women and children (Exodus 32:28). So, you do not have to justify murder; simply call it a necessary killing, “Et Voila!” problem solved.
In my opinion, the difference is one of perspective. If they kill you and yours, it is a killing. If you kill one of them or theirs, it is murder. This perspective has become ingrained into western culture and is no longer just a religious thing. For instance, we “killed” Bin Laden while they “murdered” Ambassador Stevens.

Silly @Pachyderm_In_The_Room !!! Anything and everything can be justified in the name of god/ Religion is like the movie “love Story”. —Remember, “love means… never having to say you’re sorry”.

Religion is “never having to explain things no matter how bizarre they may be.

I leave you with one last thought on religion—- Cole Porter said it best. (listen to the song): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aeQ3DmKU7A

It would be a mistake to believe that everyone’s (every culture’s, every religion’s) concept of a supreme divinity is a merciful, loving, and life-affirming god. Some gods have other priorities.

If you don’t burn the witches, then they’ll bewitch you and you’ll end up worshiping the devil. It’s a necessary part of God’s work.

@Pachyderm_In_The_Room Great question.

All those who worship the god of a group of illiterate, early-Bronze-Age desert-nomads: whether they call him El; Elohim; Yahweh; God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; or Allah—they all worship a god that is bloodthirsty, demands murder, demands animal sacrifice, issues the death penalty for the most innocuous of things, is jealous, petulant, egomaniac and petty. And the worshipers of this consummately evil God are more than half the population of planet Earth.

Religions that justify murder in the name of God should be illegal. Followers of religions that justify murder in the name of God should be treated as criminals or potential criminals. Communities of those followers should be observed by the homeland security forces and the police.

Ideologies that justify murder in the name of this ideology should be illegal. Followers of these ideologies that justify murder in the name of this ideology should be treated as criminals. Communities of those followers should be observed by the homeland security forces and the police.

Religions and ideologies are what today’s people make of them. It’s all about interpretation. What we need are benign interpretations. And we need to keep a watchful eye on people who disseminate malignant interpretations.

Sometimes it’s as simple as missing the point. A lot of anti-Semitisim is/was (I don’t think it’s as popular now as earlier) justified by saying that the Jews killed Jesus, without anybody realizing that the Crucifixion was part of the plan all along.

@Nullo Exactly. Why would anyone hate Jews besides that? I’m being serious, I’ve never really been around anyone who hated Jews except in the White Pride gangs or something.

Every religion poses a threat to every other religion. If the only basis for your belief is faith, then an alternative faith calls yours into question. When there is no rational basis for discussion then the irrational takes over.

The greater tolerance of Jews by Christians seems to coincide with the belief that the formation of the Jewish state of Israel is a necessary precursor to the Second Coming.

@KNOWITALL I don’t know.
@LostInParadise I thought it coincided with more people reading their Bibles instead of having them read to them. I’ll have to check.

@Nullo I think @LostInParadise has it exactly right and I see no evidence of suddenly-emerging, widespread-knowledge of what the Bible actually says. Indeed, had such a thing occurred, most would abandon their faith in the book because it is so obviously wrong on so many points. Of course, that assumes reading it with an open mind instead of one distorted by confirmation bias.

@ETpro “If we actually read the bible for ourselves, most would abandon their faith” ”......distorted by confirmation bias.”

Some day I’d like to hear why you are so against Christianty, @ETpro, then maybe I could understand all the negativity you feel. It makes me sorry for you, really it does.

@KNOWITALL It’s likely because in order to be a “Good Christian” you have to largely ignore wide swaths of Biblical commands, but still maintain that you get your morality from a book that promotes rape, slavery, and genocide.

@Seek_Kolinahr Some of us can view the Bible with context, though Seek. Do you believe everything one political party says? Since I disagree with the GOP’s view of SSM, do I forget the things I do believe?

My point is there is a lot of good stuff in Bible that helps a lot of people. Minimalizing or dismissing it doesn’t change that.

@Seek_Kolinahr : Have you not encountered Christians who only follow the New Testament? Do you feel the same way about Judaism?

@KNOWITALL I know you view it with context. However, in order to take it as anything but literal, you must have a filter from an outside source.

@bookish1 Yes, I have. Again, they had to use objective reasoning in order to determine that the OT “doesn’t count”. Especially since they have to ignore several of Jesus’ teachings that blatantly state that the old law does count. (Yes, I do feel the same about all of the Abrahamic religions)

A measure of goodness does not absolve the evil. Yes, some people of faith find that their religion makes them a better person. Some other people are emotionally and physically abused, maimed, or even killed by people who believe their faith makes them a better person.

Most religious people are good people. Most people in general are good people. But for otherwise good people to do very evil things, religion is nearly always involved.

@Seek_Kolinahr To a degree I do, I call it ‘life’, and so do a lot of other Christians.

Trust me, without religion or God’s interference, I was not a great person – you have no idea but maybe someday I’ll talk about that more.

*By the way, I’m reading Star Trek Probe, the book, it’s pretty good! :)

@Seek_Kolinahr : Thanks for the reminder. It’s been a long time since I’ve read the NT myself.

I’m reading this and I’m curious, @Seek_Kolinahr, what “wide swaths of Biblical commands” are you referring to my friend? The part about the Bible promoting rape, genocide and slavery is something another member here use to say all the time too. I never understood where you get that God promotes these things.

@bkcunningham It is true, remember Moses (God’s chosen) had a child with his slave when his wife was supposedly barren?

What is true, @KNOWITALL? I’m missing your point. Sorry. Are you saying there was slavery during Moses’ lifetime?

@bkcunningham Yep.

I’m really wondering what “wide swaths of Biblical commands,” @Seek_Kolinahr meant.

So you think slavery was God’s fault or he commanded slavery, @KNOWITALL? I’m confused. I’m also just sitting down after a busy morning, so please, forgive my misunderstanding. It takes a few minutes for me to get my thinking cap on straight.

@bkcunningham Have you read the Bible?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

Exodus: God orders the sons of Levi (Moses, Aaron, and the other members of their tribe that were “on the Lord’s side”) to kill “every man his neighbor.” “And there fell of the people that day about 3000 men.” 32:27–28

But God wasn’t satisfied with the slaughter of the 3000, so he killed some more people with a plague. 32:35

Leviticus: If you upset God, he’ll cause the land to vomit you out. 18:25
“Keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations… that the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.” 18:26–28
“Whosoever shall commit any of these abominations… shall be cut off from among their people.” 18:29
Don’t eat sacrifices on the third day or God will cut you off from among your people. 19:6–8
“Whosoever… giveth… his seed unto Molech… the people… shall stone him with stones.” 20:2
If you refuse to kill someone who gives his seed to Molech, God set his face against you and your family. 20:4–5
“For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.” Couldn’t we try spanking first? 20:9
Both parties in adultery shall be executed. 20:10
If a man has sex with his father’s wife, kill them both. 20:11
If a man “lies” with his daughter-in-law, then both must be killed. 20:12
If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. 20:13
If you “lie” with your wife and your mother-in-law (now that sounds fun!), then all three of you must be burned to death. 20:14
If a man or woman “lie with a beast” both the person and the poor animal are to be killed. 20:15–16
People with “familiar spirits” (witches, fortune tellers, etc.) are to be stoned to death. 20:27
A priest’s daughter who “plays the whore” is to be burned to death. 21:9

Numbers

God shows his hospitality with the admonition: “The stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.” 1:51, 3:10, 3:38

After the people “commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab,” Moses has them all killed. Then God tells Moses to hang their dead bodies up in front of him; God says that this will satisfy him. 25:1–5
When one of the Israelite men brings home a foreign woman, “Phinehas (Aaron’s grandson) sees them and throws a spear “through the man .. and the woman through her belly.” This act pleases God so much that “the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.” But not before 24,000 had died. 25:6–9
For impaling the interracial couple, God rewards Phinehas and his sons with the everlasting priesthood. 25:10–13
God tells Moses how to care for his neighbors by saying: “Vex the Midianites, and smite them.” 25:16–17
The ground swallow Korah and his companions and a fire consumes 250 men. 26:10
“And Nadab and Abihu died when they offered strange fire before the Lord.” When you go camping avoid making any unusual fires. 26:61
In these chapters (28, 29), God provides ridiculously detailed instructions for the ritualistic sacrifice of animals. The burning of their dead bodies smells great to God. Eleven times in these two chapters God says that they are to him a “sweet savour.” 28–29
Under God’s direction, Moses’ army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: “Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” So they went back and did as Moses (and presumably God) instructed, killing everyone except for the virgins. In this way they got 32,000 virgins—Wow! (Even God gets some of the booty—including the virgins.) 31:1–54
“The prey that was taken, both of man and of beast” was offered as a “heave offering of the LORD.” 31:26–29

Deuteronomy:

“I have given into thine hand Sihon the Amorite, king of Heshbon, and his land: begin to possess it, and contend with him in battle.” 2:24

All nations shall be terrorized by the followers of Yahweh. 2:25
God hardened the heart of the king of Heshbon and so that he could have him and all of his people killed. 2:30
At God’s instructions, the Israelites “utterly destroyed the men, women, and the little ones” leaving “none to remain.” 2:33–36
The Israelites, with God’s help, kill all the men, women, and children of every city. 3:3–6
“And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.” 3:6
Moses promises Joshua that God will massacre kings and kingdoms for him, too. 3:21
When going to war, don’t be afraid. God is on your side; “he shall fight for you.” 3:22

If you worship the wrong god, God will get jealous and kill you. 6:15
God instructs the Israelites to kill, without mercy, all the inhabitants (strangers) of the land that they conquer. 7:2
If you do show any mercy to such strangers, “give your daughters to any of them, or “take” any of their daughters, then you’ll get God so angry that he’ll “destroy thee suddenly.” 7:4
God will kill those who hate him. 7:10
God commands his people to “consume all the people which the Lord thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity on them.” 7:16

After God kills those of other faiths, be sure to reject their beliefs and do not learn about them. Otherwise God will have to kill you too. 12:30
Prophets and dreamers are to be executed if they say or dream the wrong things. 13:1–5
If your brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend tries to get you to worship another god, “thou shalt surely kill him, thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death.” 13:6–10
If you hear of a city where another god is worshiped, then destroy everyone in the city (even the cattle) and burn it down. (Watch out Salt Lake!) 13:12–16
Kill everyone who has religious beliefs that are different from your own. 17:2–7
Anyone who will not listen to a priest or a judge must be executed. 17:12–13
False prophets are to be (you guessed it) executed. How do you know who is a false prophet? By whether or not their predictions come true. (Watch out Jehovah’s Witnesses!) 18:20

False witnesses are to be execucuted. 19:18–19

I haven’t even gotten out of the Pentateuch yet

From what I’ve read, it was wrong of Egyptians to enslave Hebrews, but since he had a son by Sarah’s slave girl, Hagar, I guess that was okay. That is just one.

http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/History-Abraham.htm

According to the Book of Exodus, Moses was born in a time when his people, the Children of Israel, were increasing in numbers and the Egyptian Pharaoh was worried that they might help Egypt’s enemies. Moses’ Hebrew mother, Jochebed, hid him when the Pharaoh ordered all newborn Hebrew boys to be killed, and the child was adopted as a foundling by the Egyptian royal family. After killing an Egyptian slavemaster, Moses fled across the Red Sea to Midian, where he encountered the God of Israel in the form of a “burning bush”. God sent Moses back to Egypt to request the release of the Israelites. After the Ten Plagues, Moses led the Exodus of the Israelites out of Egypt and across the Red Sea, after which they based themselves at Mount Sinai, where Moses received the Ten Commandments. After 40 years of wandering in the desert, Moses died within sight of the Promised Land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses

Why do you suppose God made these commandments, @Seek_Kolinahr? Just for the fun of it? Did He get off on it? Did He just get bored and give these random commands?

@bkcunningham Could there be any justification for those commands? Most of them actually give the reason for killing someone. For example, “false witnesses are to be executed”.

Do liars deserve to be punished by death? Would any human be left standing if that command were followed consistently?

Well, as far as I can see, @bkcunningham, the justification was that God had delivered the Isrealites out of Egypt, but forgot to set aside a homeland for them, so God’s only option in his omniscient omnipotence was to order Moses to mow down anyone who got in his way, saving alive only ⅔ of the virgins of the peoples they slaughtered (the other third were burnt alive on an altar, so God could smell it and be happy).

@KNOWITALL, I believe that was Abraham, not Moses.

@Jeruba Can’t you read my mind yet? hahahaha, sorry.

I’m saying you’re right.

@KNOWITALL, I’m not sure I understand your response.

Abraham was the father of Ishmael by the slave (“handmaiden”) Hagar, and then later of Isaac by his supposedly barren wife Sarah.

Ok, I see you’ve amended your response since I posted just above. Makes sense now.

Does that difference affect your argument at all?

@KNOWITALL Sorry to be so long responding. I’ve been extraordinarily busy with my day job.

In response, let me add some of my own objections to the Bible to the excellent responses that @Seek_Kolinahr has provided in numerous spots above, keeping in mind the fact that Jesus said the Law and the Prophets are still in effect.

God also finds the following list of sins so abominable that he wants all who do them to be stoned to death.
1     All those who eat any seafood without fin and scale. Goodbye to all who have ever eaten at Red Lobster or enjoy shrimp, lobster, clams, oysters or crab.
2     All those who have ever eaten pork or rabbit. Apparently this supposedly omniscient god didn’t even know that rabbits do not chew the cud. And he hates bacon.
3     Anyone who wears a garment of mixed fibers. Ever worn a cotton-polyester perma-press shirt or blouse. Off to be stoned to death if you have.
4     Anyone who has ever planted a flower garden with mixed seeds. What a horrible thing to do. Having different colored flowers growing together. Isn’t it perfectly clear why God would make this a capital crime?
5     Ever slept in your own house when you were on your period? If so, God wants you carted off and stoned for being an abomination. You’re supposed to camp out in the yard.

As @Seek_Kolinahr notes, my problem with saying that you “view the Bible in context” is that the context is it’s a book written by primitive, fallible men. You know that. You say that. Then you insist you know your god exists because the Bible is the perfect word of an omniscient, omnipotent God who guided every word it sayd, and it says he exists. Not only is it a circular argument, it’s an absurd claim because you have already indicated you know the book was not the perfect revealed knowledge of an omniscient, omnipotent deity.

There may well be a god. I am an agnostic atheist, not an atheistic atheist. But I can say very definitively that if the God of Abraham is really the creator of the Universe, we are all in trouble, because the dude is egomaniacal, driven by vengeance, bloodthirsty, misogynistic, and more evil than any modern-day sociopathic criminal. To worship this deity as the god of love is to make a mockery of the word, love.

I get that life sent you trouble that Christianity seemed to handle. I am glad you found a way out. But you actually solved your problem, not some imaginary friend. We can’t test for God, but we can test for prayer. When there is any correlation, it is negative. Your imaginary friend is no better than the Muslim’s imaginary friend, or the Hindu’s, or those of any other primitive culture that needed an easy explanation for what they could not understand.