What is your gut reaction to questions that seem to be mocking God and religion?

My reaction is similar, a bit of tedium. I think part of it is so many feel self righteous about their opinion on the matter, yet I don;t think I have ever witnessed someone on here having their opinion changed. SO it ends up being a rehashing of the last time someone on teh same side of the question raised the topic.

It’s to the point where I don’t join in unless it’s a question that does not have a direct dependency on belief in religion or belief in a higher power.

I groan inwardly, initially.
Then I think, for goodness sake, surely religion, of any hue, is big enough to rise above mocking and/or snide remarks.
Personally, I believe in God, but not religion as all religions are MAN made.
Amen/Awomen/Achildren

I fall in the Nothing category. I feel they are no different than other questions on the site.

Mixed.

These Qs kind of excite me just because I’m very interested in the phenomenon of religion, the role it plays in people’s identities and their reactions to it, and so these Qs are guaranteed to get people talking about this kind of stuff.

But then, I also know that they’re not good for the overall social cohesion of the Fluther community, and that feelings will almost certainly be bruised and regrettable things said. That makes me cringe a bit.

I think that people who openly mock religion or God are assholes. And I say this as a hard atheist.

I am not religious, but if there is a God, I’m quite sure that He / She has an all-knowing, all-seeing sense of humor. God probably loves the snarky comments, and ironically is bored and put-off by the sanctimonious ones…

Whenever we hear thunder, it is probably not “the angels bowling”. More likely, it’s just The Omnipotent One rolling his (or her) eyes….

.

Frustration and sadness.

@Rarebear I agree, but I’ll call them ‘insensitive’. :)

If a question is mocking God, I would assume the asker is not interested in expanding their knowledge or belief, and is not interested in fruitful conversation.

I think…oy!. that question (or some form of it) again!

In my opinion, trying to defend or debate one’s religious or political beliefs online, at least to any depth, is a waste of finger strength.

By and large I just pass them by since most are designed to just stir the pot and take a jab at believers.

In all my years at Fluther I’ve only seen less than a handful of open minded discussions on the subject (and yea, it is possible to have a sensible open minded exchange of ideas on the subject but its just extremely rare on Fluther). If I get the sense that the asker is sincerely wanting to know, I might throw in my 2 cents worth but that rarely happens around here.

And it’s really a shame. In real life I’ve been used to all sorts of wide ranging discussions with theists, agnostics and atheists with absolutely no rancor and mutual respect from all sides.

Imagine my surprise at finding it the total opposite here in the Flutherverse. I’m still not entirely sure why that is, but that’s the prevailing atmosphere around here so I just shrug my shoulders and move on to other topics. Since I have no overwhelming need to save anyone from the flames of an eternal horribly mistranslated hell, (in which I do NOT believe) it’s easiest to just bypass the entire topic. Even tho I am a Christian, I’m really not religious in the least, so there’s no group ‘s doctrine which I feel obligated to espouse. So it’s not difficult at all just to bypass those types of questions altogether.

@zenvelo

My First Post on Answerbag

People do change. ^_^

@Buttonstc Same here, I have never heard so much negativity as I do about religion here.

It’s very odd and unfamiliar to me, because I have friends from all walks of life and religious paths, or nonreligious paths and we NEVER talk to each other with disrepect or mocking.

Actually fluther is the very first place I heard my God called a ‘fairytale’ and a ‘unicorn’, but don’t use the “N” word and “F” word to describe blacks and LGBT’s. Very odd.

I usually ignore the openly mocking ones. There is a difference of opinion about what mocking is, however. I never thought seeing the belief in God as believing in a fairy tale as mocking.

It usually makes me sad and I Have learned to avoid most of those questions.

Regardless of my personal beliefs, I object to questions designed to mock those whos opinions differ from the person asking the question. To me this is troll-like behavior and I refer such questions to the moderators.

Exactly what @Rarebear said.

My gut reaction is to bitchslap the poster through the computer, for being such an egotistical, arrogant douchebag. Alas, our technology has not advanced that far.

@Seek_Kolinahr – the Only Douchebag on Fluther.

I think “really?”

I tend to flinch. I’m not religious nor atheist either. I notice that when I hear some sacriligious remark I still notice an internal involentary flinch, a slight recoil from it. I suppose that is a remnent of my youth. I’ve noticed that most of these kinds of sites tend to mock or deride differing opinions rather than argue or discuss. Must be a sign of the times.

@Seek_Kolinahr While I recognize that you have grown and changed since you posted on answerbag (and I have come to appreciate your wit and forthrightness), I still hold that no one on here has changed their belief system while participating in a thread.

There are but a few anti- religion hardliners on here and we expect that from them. It almost has no meaning when the source is considered.

@zenvelo I directly attribute my deconversion to the many many hours I spent debating as a religious apologist in various Q&A threads and chatrooms over the course of several years.

(I can’t believe I spelled “ridiculous” incorrectly in that old AB post. Can I edit six years ago, please?)

I pray for those people.
I just ignore them.

Are you asking this to mock atheists?

Here we go again.

Hey, I love Seek, she’s awesome. We’re all allowed to question each other and discuss, and she generally does that respectfully, in my opinion.

For me, it’s like having someone mock my family, which is why it’s hard for me to just walk away, although I’m making an effort at ‘turning the other cheek.’ :)

High praise, indeed!

I don’t like questions that mock anything, pretty much. Even if it’s something I’m generally against, be it a religion or a political position. This is not to say I haven’t participated in a few questions like this…I definitely have. <hangs head in shame>

I feel that they are mocking my beliefs and putting me down as a person. I have never put anyone down on Fluther or in real life for their beliefs or for their way of life and really don’t understand how so many people on Fluther will bash religion and feel like it is perfectly okay. “God is like the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus, non-existant.” It wouldn’t bother me if people just said they didn’t believe, but they have to go further and bash and name call. I’ve almost left Fluther over this a few times.

For a real answer to the question:

I feel free to mock anything that demands praise and promotes ignorance.

It is in bad form to mock people. However, ideas are not people. Ideas are not, and should not be, immune to ridicule. If an idea can stand up on its own merits, it deserves respect. If it cannot, it should be discarded.

@Seek_Kolinahr Yes. Well said.

@Seek_Kolinahr It’s still a slap in the face to people that follow those “ideas”.
It bothers me. In fact, any response that insults someone’s beliefs regardless of the content of the question is really low. How immature can you get? Respect another person’s beliefs no matter how illogical you find them. Most universal religions have great morals and outlooks on life, outside of how illogical you view some of the dogmas. It doesn’t take away from the respect a person deserves.

@chyna Me, too, and I’ve received quite a few PM’s that others were distraught over it as well.

Thing is, we can treat others as they would be treated, respectfully and with love, but we can’t expect that from others. We are held to a higher standard, because we proclaim ourselves Christians. We cannot hold other people to those standards our God gave US. :) Peace.

I believe all black people are worth ½ a white person.

I believe a woman is worth ⅔ that of a man.

I believe the moon landing/holocaust never happened.

I believe humans were created by God from a clot of blood.

Which of these beliefs with no evidence as their basis is immediately deserving of unquestioned respect? And why do the other three not deserve the same?

@KNOWITALL “Thing is, we can treat others as they would be treated, respectfully and with love, but we can’t expect that from others. We are held to a higher standard, because we proclaim ourselves Christians. We cannot hold other people to those standards our God gave US. :) ”

But you see, this is just the thing. I think it is fair to criticize the ideas and not the person. You’ve just criticized the people. That’s not cool. I have pretty darned high standards for how I treat people. It’s condescending to say that my standards are lower than yours. You can say “peace” all you like, but that was a mean thing to say about me.

@Seek_Kolinahr Not all religious people are mindless idiots. I was pretty deep into the Born Again thing in the 80’s and I never believed any of that.

There are plenty of thoughtful scholars that are religious too. It’s pretty narrow to lump the likes of JRR Tolkin and CS Lewis in the same bag as Mark Driscol or Jerry Fallwell.

@Dutchess_III I did not say the first three were the views of the religious, I was wondering why religious beliefs are supposedly meant to be accepted without question, when so many other beliefs are dismissed as the absurdities they are. No one would call me intolerant if I opposed someone else’s belief that non-white people are subhuman.

@glacial Nope, if I can’t take it personally neither can you. ;)

And I certainly didn’t mean anyone in particular because that would break fluther rules.

@Judi I am a huge fan of Tolkien’s works. Seriously. That doesn’t mean his religion is true, or that if in a discussion with him, I would grant him the “win”. God doesn’t exist because a super-cool novelist believes in him.

@KNOWITALL What I have, in the past, recommended that you not take personally are attacks on ideas, That is exactly the difference that I am talking about.

I see. And I agree @Seek_Kolinahr.

@glacial Forgive me, but often the delivery often leaves a question in my mind as to whether it’s adult discourse or a joke Q.

If you had a disabled child that you loved, and saw me making a disabled joke, would that be okay?

Religion means something to those of us that believe, and while you may not respect that, don’t ask me to respect your asking stupid questions.

@KNOWITALL Oookay. I have no idea what that has to do with anything I’ve said. I have never asked a question here that either mocked religion or “seemed to be mocking religion”.

One doesn’t choose to be disabled. Just saying.

@glacial Why did you ask me about my post to @chyna earlier then? I’m just trying to reply to your questions.

@Seek_Kolinahr It doesn’t matter, because to me God is that important to me, like your child is sacred and important to you.
Doesn’t anyone on fluther know what an analogy is? frustrated

@Seek_Kolinahr That is because these people have found what they believe to be a divine truth and believe in it through faith. But believing in a deity isn’t discriminatory like the other examples you gave, so why worry about it? In fact, it helps some people a lot because they use the spiritual dimension as a support system.

@KNOWITALL Oh, I get it. You were just calling my question stupid! Well, that’s all ok then. Nice standards you have there.

I feel the need to stand up against smarmy and repugnant no matter what form it takes. I don’t believe in God but I also don’t believe in belittling the beliefs of another.

unless it’s a political discussion and i just know i’m right

No matter how you slice it, if you belittle a concept that others hold dear, you are, in fact, telling them they’re idiots. It’s not nice at all.

@glacial No I wasn’t at all actually.

@Dutchess_III EXACTLY!! ding ding ding, we have a winner.

@Dutchess_III I used to hold these beliefs. I would no more tell a Christian that he is an idiot for believing than I would call myself an idiot. That’s not what it is.

God is an idea, not a person.

The analogy is flawed.

God is supposedly an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being. It should be able to stand up for itself. If you are the only thing between little ol’ me and Big Bad God, I’d wonder why I bothered worshipping something that needed me to protect it. This was one of the big “oh!” moments for me, actually.

@dxs

Ha!
Religion discriminates against women, children, people of various races, people of various religions, And people of the religion itself.

Some people use religion as a crutch, in order to make it through their sad lives. Fine. Whatever. If you keep it to yourself, I don’t care. However, a great number of religious people don’t keep it to themselves. They want their religion in my child’s school, in my friend’s marriage (or lack thereof, if they have their way), in my uterus. All for a handful of poorly translated stories written four thousand years ago.

Faith is belief in something with the absence of evidence. That is not worthy of respect.

But guess what? I’m allowed to say that. You know why? because that’s my belief. And if people who believe I’m going to burn in Hell are allowed to come to MY house, knock on MY door, and bring their inanity to MY child’s school, I feel 100% justified in calling their beliefs what they are: baseless superstitions held by the fearful and exploited by the powerful.

But that’s what it FEELS like @glacial. And if one persists on posting the snarky, belittling, comments knowing how it’s going to be taken…it’s just wrong. It also serves no purpose what so ever.

@Seek_Kolinahr And some simply use it to comfort themselves. Some want to believe they’ll see their child, mother, brother again. There is no harm in that.

@Dutchess_III Again, as long as they keep it to themselves, I don’t care.

@Dutchess_III You can see right here that there’s no lack of snarky, belittling comments from the other side.

Whatever, I’m done with this atheist-bashing question. Have fun, guys.

Atheist-bashing, there’s a twist. (I belittle your nonbelief)

Just a little jest folks.

It makes me sick to my stomach to see people be so rude. If you are so sure of your own beliefs, why mock the beliefs of others? Why don’t you go suck your thumb instead. It’s got to me more soothing. ;)

A lot of people do keep it to themselves. But they can’t avoid the insults.

I think people have too much time on their hands

I know I do @talljasperman.

@Seek_Kolinahr “as long as they keep it to themselves…” Does the same hold true for atheists who insist on posting mocking questions for the sole purpose of trying to make others look ignorant? Because it doesn’t seem to. It seems perfectly ok for atheists to flaunt their non-belief in any thread they see fit and if there is not one at the moment, they start one.

Also, I think it is inappropriate for you to insist on painting all religions and people of faith with the wide and discriminatory brush of what you once believed. Just because your version religion discriminated against women, children, people of different races and people of different religion doesn’t mean mine does. It is offensive that not only do you persist in calling people who believe in God ignorant, but also that you presume to know why I believe what I do.

@Seek_Kolinahr Of course you can say that; you have every right. But there is a difference between disagreeing and mocking. You can state your beliefs but they don’t have to be in a mocking way. That’s just rude and unnecessary.

I agree that many religions are highly discriminative, and that is because of what they believe to be true. (And I’m not saying that that justifies anything because it really doesn’t). But here in America, most religions are not like that. In a secular society such as the USA, I know for a fact that religious people bend. I am talking mostly about Catholics since that’s the environment I’m in. and I know that you and I both know a lot about Catholicism. Some Catholic people I know have understood that we are a secular society, and the USA believes in the separation of the Church and the State, so they vote based upon that rule. They vote for things they normally wold not accept like gay marriage or something. So clearly they’re not pressing their beliefs on anyone.
Although I am not Catholic, I personally follow Jesus’s moral teachings. If you take everything else out of the bible but Jesus, you’ll see he doesn’t discriminate like Paul or anyone in the Old Testament. Not everyone that is religious runs around flaunting it and asking for time to talk about their Lord Savior Jesus Christ with you. And as I said, not every religious person puts their beliefs into the secular society. You can’t put everyone under the same umbrella. I find that annoying, too. I think religion should be a personal thing, not forced upon.

“Rude and unnecessary” really sums it up.

I don’t really have a reaction at that time. I just feel like at that time I want to support God. And that almost always depends on my mood, bipolar sometimes chooses what happens after that.

There is a page on facebook called “The Christian Left.” I enjoy reading his posts. They’re rational and reasonable, a breath of fresh air in all the ranting. He just posted this:

The Christian Left
“Hi, my name is Jonathan and I just want to thank the administrators of this page for being so inspirational. I grew up in the deep South….the Bible belt. The people who live there have good intentions. They go to church every Sunday and honestly believe the doctrines they preach. But they have a very limited and restricted view of who Jesus actually was. They see him as a white, Southern Baptist conservative Republican. Anyone who disagrees is labeled as weird, hell-bound raging liberal. When I was in college, I started noticing that the actual Word of God, the Bible, was a direct contradiction to what I had been taught all my life. The views shouted from the pulpits regarding social, economic, religious, and other issues went directly against the teachings of Jesus. I was so grateful to find this page because sometimes I honestly wondered if I was the only one who actually felt like Christianity had been hijacked by the political right-wing. Thanks again!!”—Jonathan William Ross, member of The Christian Left

People can ask or answer any question about god without upsetting me in any way. I only have a problem when they preach to me. I’ve been known to argue and sometimes convince people like visiting Jehovah Witnesses about my theory about god. My theory is that if he doesn’t exist, then there’s nothing you have to do. If he does exist then it is best not to get his attention because if you’re too good you get tested, if you are bad you’re punished.

Either way the safest course is not to mess with god because he is described as jealous, vengeful, murderous, and bad tempered with too much time and power in his hands. I don’t go to the zoo where apes throw shit and I don’t go to church to be shit upon.

Meh, meh, meh

I really respect people who believe in God and Christ and their attitudes dovetail with what I think religion is supposed to be—love, compassion, tolerance, that kind of thing. See my post above.

The hypocrites just gripe me. The ones that say “Everything I do and say is OK, because I’m one of God’s chosen!” and use that as an excuse to insult others gripe me.

I just read that post on The Christian Left @Dutchess__lll

I really like him.

My reaction is, “how sad.” It’s the same when a theist is trying to force their beliefs down someones throat, my reaction is, “how sad.”

Humm. Well, truthfully, when I first started using Fluther, I smirked and giggled about many of them. As long as they weren’t outright verbally flogging the faithful. It was nice to see people logically (and philosophically) debate the extremely religious. As, where I live, it is a not a common occurrence.
However, after being on Fluther for a few years, I notice patterns. We tend to go through phases here. With each new influx of members, boundaries and characters are tested/questioned. Once people are clearer of where other members stand on certain topics, things tend to settle down for a bit.
I still find myself chuckling sometimes at certain remarks, but not the personal attack ones (whether I agree with them or not). I enjoy reading respectful discourse (allowing playful jabs here and there).
In short, I find myself wincing at any callous remarks/insults regarding people’s beliefs/faith. Whereas I used to smirk and giggle at the lesser callous ones. I’ve matured a bit perhaps. I still have my own evolving opinions on religion and its many followers. But I’m more accepting of them now. I may not agree but I accept the differences. I’ve always been outwardly respectful to people of different beliefs…just not as accepting as I should have been. Like I said though, I’ve evolved a little bit since then.
I do wish people would be more restrained and respectful in heated religious debates on here though. It can get really out of hand.

My reaction is like yours, I roll my eyes and give an exasperated sigh. I don’t tolerate atheists prostheletyzing any more than I do people of any other beliefs. I don’t understand the compulsion to “convert” someone else. Jehovah, Allah, Krishna, Olympus, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Scientology, Evelynism, Jesus is the savior, Jesus as a prophet, random chance gathering of elements, light and heat… whatever!

I don’t judge you for what you believe, and I ask to not be judged for what I believe. None of us will know whether we’re right until after we’ve finished our time here. Why let speculations of the unknowable lead us to act disrespectfully toward each other?

@Plucky I like your answer. It is about respect and not just being able to get a dig in because you do not believe. Most religious questions on here turn into rude free for alls and nothing is shared or learned from it.

I have to say that I find the gun control legislation questions even more frustrating than the religious ones. Basically, I don’t care what you believe as long as you don’t to shove it up my face, but gun control issues have a real impact on life in America. And I think it is perhaps even more pointless to argue about that here.

It’s strange that the religious right is so rabidly pro-gun.

I don’t like the mocking of anyone. Childish and mean.

But, questioning is not mocking. Many religious folk I know don’t agree.

I think we have to understand that first.

@cookieman that’s true. When you ask logical questions they can’t answer some can get defensive…Like, I have a friend on FB who’s a germaphobe. She agrees that we don’t want to kill the good bacteria that God gave us. I want to ask, “Who gave us the bad bacteria that we do want to kill?” but I know better than to ask that!

But some people outright insult and mock, and you’re right. It’s childish and mean.

https://www.facebook.com/TheChristianLeft/posts/581275018561306

I hope I don’t mock or ridicule individuals, groups or the beliefs they hold. Even those who come here asking for advice about things such as fortune telling and tarot cards.

I equally won’t blindly accept someone else’s beliefs as truth. Nor do I accept anyone’s right to present their beliefs as facts and for those ‘facts’ to be unchallengeable.

There is a difference between being challenged and being ridiculed.

The only thing I hate more than a leading, religious question is a question about how people feel ostracized or mocked by leading, religious questions, and what I hate more than that are questions that start off innocent enough and then someone gets all butt hurt. I really have no idea what that means, but it sounds good.

I like that new term too @tinyfaery!

My gut reaction, someone just lit a fuse & kaboom!!

I’m not religious but I do believe in God and I hope that if there’s a Heaven, that I end up there someday. The last time I went to church was Chrstimas Eve, and the last time I went before that was the previous Christmas Eve. Before that one, I hadn’t been to church in about ten years. I’ve been going for the previous Christmas Eves because my daughter finds it fun, as they have a special Children’s Service with kids participating.

As far as people’s opinions as they say, opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one. I try not to let things like that upset me. I have my opinion, you have yours. I don’t push my religion and I don’t care to hear about people’s atheism. However, they can do what they want.

Fluther is like a big bulletin board so whatever. I try to scroll right on down and not get involved in internet arguments too much.

@SuperMouse You’ll note I have never said a single word against religious people. I mock the idea.

Am I a jerk because I don’t mince words, and say things like “I disagree with religion but mocking is bad”? Maybe. To me, though, it’s kind of like the people who say “You don’t have to say what your abuser did is OK, but you have to forgive them.” In my mind, “forgiveness” is saying that what someone did is now OK, so that statement is meaningless to me.

Do I stand on street corners in front of churches and laugh like Nelson from The Simpsons (Ha ha!) to everyone that walks in the door of a Sunday morning? Hell no. Mostly that would be a waste of time. Do I feel justified in pointing out the absurdities of a person’s belief when they choose to discuss them with me? YES. When someone knocks on my door from the local Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses (½ mile from my house. I get a wave pretty often), I have no problem letting them in, and then immediately demanding they have basis for their beliefs. I’ve actually had people tell me “I’m not here to argue God’s existence.” I was shocked. All I could say was “Who knocked on whose door?”

It’s like they’re not used to being challenged. And that is exactly what needs to change.

I think the idea that we have people on the House Science Committee that actually believe the earth is less than 7000 years old is deplorable. I have to laugh to keep from crying. It’s utterly depressing that religion in the United States is handled with kid gloves, lest we offend some adult’s choice to believe in superstition.

I’m not a huge fan of Sam Harris, but he did say something memorable in Letter to a Christian Nation: “The president of the United States has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. If he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive.”

It would be completely OK to mock the beliefs of a person who has unpopular beliefs. So exactly how many people need to believe in some baseless assertions before that belief becomes “protected”?

I agree that we have to get our collective act together to stop the religious ideals, based on faith and not science, from actually trying to take over the science courses at the public schools. But mocking people isn’t the way to go about it.

I have a fb friend…he was actually one of my son’s motherless boys and he lived with me /us for a time when he was a teenager. He constantly posts mocking, sarcastic, rude comments about religion. I finally called him on it. My biggest question was ‘Why is this SO important to you? Why not live and let live?”
He said he honestly didn’t know why it was so important to him.
My daughter had an interesting thought. She said, “He was just one of those screw ups as a kid. Was constantly told he was wrong, doing it wrong, that he was dumb, whatever. Now he’s found something that makes him feel like he is incontrovertibly right, and he wants to hang on to it.” That made as much sense as anything else.

I. Am. Not. Mocking. People.

I. Am. Mocking. Ideas.

relevant

You’re not, @Seek_Kolinahr, but plenty of people do.

Ah!! My fb friend, mentioned above, JUST posted this:

“I just imagined what it might feel like to have someone near you die and believe they went to be in a really awesome eternal place.
It was relief that Relative:X was now in a great place forever. Just comfort. No more pain..

Guess that might be why belief in an afterlife can make people feel better, and basically just give them a generic, neatly packaged way to cope with loss.”

That’s a distillation of what I was trying to tell him the other day. :)

Hee-hee, if only Jesus would show up again & all of this would be settled…so long as he has valid ID of course.

Now, I daresay, there are some religious people who are totally worth mocking. This guy for instance.

Well, yeah! And Westboro Baptist Church. They’re totally worth getting locked up.

Wow…I just looked at your link. Is that guy for real??

Apparently so. If pi is 33, all my circles just got a lot bigger.

Pi is 33! 33=the original sin apple, from whence they made the first apple pi! (Wait…is that mocking?)

@Dutchess_III Yes. But it’s also funny. ^_^

@Seek_Kolinahr Ya gotta love these guys flawed logic. Like Brian Fisher of AFA radio who said that unless we restrict our immigration policy Everyone in the US is going to be a minority in a few years.

@Seek_Kolinahr while your response is full of passion and well written, it doesn’t address even a single word of my quip. The closest you come is to say you mock ideas not people.

It think that it is utterly ridiculous that because you play semantics and claim to mock ideas rather than people it is somehow ok to say whatever you like. When one jumps into a thread that is there for the sole purpose of say, mocking religious figures just to get laughs, that person is not just mocking ideas, that person is mocking the people who believe in those ideas. It may make you feel better to think otherwise but you are fooling yourself.

I am also incredibly frustrated with you (and pretty much every other vocal atheist on Fluther) insisting that if one believes in God one must believe exactly‘what you once did, therefore that person must be exactly what you once were. You are flat out mistaken. My religion is none of the things you accuse religions of being. I am also not a sheep who believes something just because i was told to believe it. I am not at risk of losing my faith because of debate on Q & A threads, and while I am willing to defend myself when I am mocked for what I believe, I know God can defend Himself and am no religious apologist.

@SuperMouse I wanted to ask you, and @KNOWITALL, your opinion of the link that Seek posted. What are your thoughts on people who preach things like that? I swear I’m not “setting” either of you up. I promise.
As for me, even when I was in the midst of the Born Again culture, and was as big of a believer that I’ll ever be in my life, that kind of thing would still have me shaking my head.

@SuperMouse On the contrary, I was an extreme Fundamentalist. The vast majority of religious people are no where close to as blindly devout as I once was. I’m still finding old acquaintances and apologising for the wrongs I’ve done in the name of my deity of choice.

Again, I see no good reason why it should be perfectly OK to take a stand against racist beliefs, political beliefs, misogynistic beliefs, but not religious beliefs.

Why is religion protected? and how many people have to believe in that religion for it to be protected? I don’t see a whole lot of people taking a stand to protect the Manson cult followers from society’s mockings. No one gets up in arms when someone references “drinking the Kool-aid”. But you mention Joseph Smith’s magic underwear and all of a sudden you’re hurting people.

I mean, there are actual religions today that are based on Science Fiction Novels. Half the followers of that religion were born before the novel was published. Do you not understand how ridiculous that is? How utterly crazy that looks from the outside? Our military has Jedi Chaplains. Jedi. I’m not kidding.

We have Hubble. We have the International Space Station. We have the Large Hadron Collider. We don’t need the campfire stories of bronze-age shepherds to teach us about life anymore.

Take what wisdom you can from the stories. I like a good story as much as the next person. That’s fine. But to live your life based on superstition and myth? The human race should be beyond this by now. At this point, we’re just holding ourselves back by pandering to the nonsense.

Yes, there are crazies, @Seek_Kolinahr, but most Christians aren’t in that category.

Am I talking to a wall, here?

@Seek_Kolinahr No, but the examples you cited, like Manson, and Jim Jones, are a vast minority of Christians. They were insane, pure and simple.

But what makes them insane, but the others aren’t?

What is the fine line between “you should respect people’s beliefs” and “Woo, those dudes is weird, yo”?

@Seek_Kolinahr Their brains! They’re just insane, like Ted Bundy, and they used religion to perpetuate their insanity. Their religion didn’t make them crazy.

I don’t know the answer to your second question. Where do we draw the fine line on anything.

This is a pretty interesting video.

@Dutchess_III

I worked with a woman who wanted to sell her house.

So she went to the church, bought a little statue of Saint Joseph or something, and buried it upside down in her front yard. Then she paid for a notice in the newspaper to tell the world she had buried the saint upside down in her front yard. I remember before she buried it she called about 15 other coworkers who were Catholic to see whether the upside-down saint statue should face the house or the road.

I wonder… what exactly is it about the statue, or the newspaper, that is supposed to help a person sell their house? Would it work if you used a Batman action figure instead? The statue was plastic. So is Batman. Does it have to be a paid section of the newspaper, or would a free community paper work, too?

Am I the only person that thinks this sounds utterly crazy?

She was a little batty! What was she like as a co-worker, in other areas?
If she’d gotten a fatted calf and buried it upside down in her yard, that would have been a little more crazy.
If she’d buried a human upside down in her yard, she’d be certifiably insane.
It’s superstition. It’s what got us through, explained things,before the advent of science. It’s a centuries-long tradition and dying hard.

Irritation/Indifference/Someone’sTryingToWinOnTheInternetAgain

@Dutchess_III She was fine. A little obsessed with cats, but she was a 60 year old spinster. Just Catholic.

Long past the age of changing and questioning.

@Seek_Kolinahr “You’ll note I have never said a single word against religious people.”
http://www.fluther.com/154359/follwing-the-catholic-church-termination-of-an-internal-investigation-into-the/#quip2630386

@dxs Well, I meant in this thread…

But regardless, that quip is referencing the Catholic Church as an establishment. Not applicable.

@Dutchess_III as I have said again and again and again, I am not Christian. I think what they are saying is ridiculous. I think these people, not just their beliefs, are ignorant. Again, as I have said before, I believe science and religion are necessarily in complete agreement. I am not here to mock them or make fun of them though because all mocking does is fuel their fire.

@Seek it is your prerogative to question or stand against religious beliefs. If it makes you feel better have at it. I’ll tell you what though, don’t try to convince yourself or anyone else that you aren’t mocking the people who believe and don’t fool yourself into thinking that you are going to change anyone’s minds by making fun of their beliefs.

BTW, your last quip seems to contradict what you say upthread about being fine as long as the keep it to themselves. For example, why do you give a shit what a woman in your office did with a statue of St. Joseph? Did she ask you to bless Joe before he went in the ground? Did she try to force you to bury one on her behalf?

FYI, I get it you are an atheist. You think it is illogical to believe in God. You no longer believe what you once did. You feel like you understand every person of faith, what they believe, why they believe it, and how they behave based on what they believe. Got it. No brick wall here.

@SuperMouse Because it baffles me why any reasonably intelligent person would believe that burying an action figure and posting it in the newspaper would bring them a buyer for their house.

Much as it baffles me that reasonably intelligent people believe “water has a memory” and believe that homeopathic “medicine” actually works.

Much as it baffles me that reasonably intelligent people give money to Tarot card readers and astrologists.

@Seek_Kolinahr your entire diatribe about them woman with the St. Joseph statue is dripping is so much sarcasm and patronization how can you expect anyone to believe you are not mocking or speaking against that woman and her religious beliefs? The only brick wall here is yours because you persist in trying to make us believe that you are merely exercising your right to ask questions. You are belittling the people right along with belittling their beliefs.

Sorry @SuperMouse. I just read ” I know God can defend Himself and am no religious apologist.” and made an assumption.

@Dutchess_III and I were discussing the fine line between protected religious beliefs and utter insanity.

That was an example I had at my disposal.

Look, if you want to think I’m rude, or inconsiderate, or whatever, that’s fine. I’ll accept that. If you want to take personal offense to my words, that’s fine. Your choice. I really, really don’t care. I’m not going to apologise for it. And I’m not going to stop. As long as there is someone making a baseless claim, I will be there to challenge it. And if they want to hide behind “BUT THIS IS MY BELIEF!!!” I will continue to refute it, because belief is not proof, and no matter how hard you want to believe something, the fact that you believe it does not make it true.

“I will tell you what you did with Atheists for about 1500 years. You outlawed them from the universities, or any teaching careers, besmirched their reputations, banned or burned their books or their writings of any kind, drove them into exile, humiliated them, seized their properties, arrested them for blasphemy. You dehumanized them with beatings and exquisite torture, gouged out their eyes, slit their tongues, stretched, crushed or broke their limbs, tore off their breasts if they were women, crushed their scrotums if they were men, imprisoned them, stabbed them, disemboweled them, hung them, burnt them alive. And you have nerve enough to complain to me that I laugh at you”
Dr. Madalyn Murray O Hair

@Seek_Kolinahr Can you at least understand that there is meaning towards personal beliefs regarding religions?
People following religions are not responsible for what happened in the past or what happens to other people of their same religion. Even with what you said about the Church as an establishment, Catholics themselves are not responsible. I read that quip and thought you were referencing the whole Church as a body of people. Anyways, sure the Church is and always was flawed but no single Catholic can do anything about that. Religions not limited to Cathloicism have done a lot of good, too, which I don’t think I’ve ever seen you mention. Religion does to the world good, too.

@dxs Name one thing that religion does for good, that could not have been done by a secular person.

Then we can start tallying the good vs. the bad, and seeing what comes out on top.

@Seek_Kolinahr fair enough. Just stop trying convince me that you aren’t mocking or belittling me right along with mocking and belittling my beliefs or that you are ok with religion as long as people of faith leave you alone. It is disingenuous.

Enough with the persecuted Christian bullshit. You are the majority in America. How about this, you stop calling homosexuals immoral and “destined for hell” and we will stop call you fucking idiots.

Get your dumb fucking made up man in the sky shit out of tax policy and government and I won’t openly mock you. I am sorry if you need a “goal” to be a good person. I can be one without.

So STFU and and we will forget about you. And, yes, I am pissed. You are not a victim.

Not me personally, society in general.

I want religion out of politics. I want religion out of hospitals. I want religion out of schools. I want it out of my neighborhood. I want the Ten Commandments off the county building lawn. I want an atheist President. I want Westboro classified as a hate group and I want medically necessary abortions covered by insurance and the state if necessary.

And everything @johnpowell said.

@johnpowell I am not Christian. I don’t feel persecuted nor do I claim to be anyone’s victim. I believe there is no place for religion in politics, my womb, my bedroom, my pocketbook, or my kid’s school. Stop, everyone please stop trying to paint everyone who believes in God with a single brush! Ironically it is preconceived notions such as yours and @seek’s that drive a wedge between people as big as the wedge driven by the yammering of the Westboro Baptist Church.

Either way I see no reason for there to be questions put out there for the sole purpose mocking believers.

@Dutchess_III People like that, specifically people BEING PAID, have shows based on ratings. That’s how they make their money, so I don’t consider them normal Christians.

@johnpowell So what about those of us who don’t have a problem with with SSM and LGBT’s, is your rant still applicable? Not cool.

Still, no one has told me exactly the number of people it takes to turn a baseless assertion into protected religious beliefs.

Apparently burying action figures is protected, but racism isn’t. Believing in the power of crystal or water molecule vibration is protected, but tin foil protecting you from alien brainwaves isn’t.

Am I on the right track so far?

Interlude

@Seek_Kolinahr Respect or respectful disagreement works both ways. I see some of your posts deteriorating into ‘baiting’ and that saddens me.

To my fellow Christians, remember who we are supposed to be representing please.

@Seek_Kolinahr I don’t think any belief should be exempt from discussion or debate. I think it is perfectly acceptable to ask questions and have a discourse. What I am saying is that when it is always the same old crap about how believers and what they believe are ignorant, you have no real interest in discussion, your only interest is in feeling intellectually superior. The fact that I have to repeat every single time that I believe that religion and science are in complete agreement and that I am not Christian (among other things) is proof that the atheists active in threads such as these have no interest in listening.

The bottom line is that I stand firmly against asking questions just to mock the beliefs of others whether they are about Star Trek, action figures, homeopathy, astrology, or anything else. This is baiting and belittling and does not promote any kind of useful discourse.

@SuperMouse I know you’re not Christian. Don’t know why some others don’t realise that, but I’ve never said you were.

I’ve also never asked a question on Fluther directly mocking anyone. I did ask whether some really apeshit crazy Mormons who were stalking my family were a representative sample of the religious customs.

Exception :)

So Magic 8 Ball and Tarot are not protected beliefs.

Because, burying an action figure in the dirt isn’t hurting anyone. Killing someone, or beating them up because of their color does. That’s why racism is illegal and burying action figures is ignored.

I think Ouija boards are protected.

@ucme nice. Except I wasn’t mocking anyone with that question. I was thinking back to when I was that age and what my agenda would have been for asking the type of question I mentioned.

What about the tinfoil, @Dutchess_III

What about the Flat Earth Society? or Concave Earth Hypothesis?

How thoroughly must something be debunked before we’re allowed to make fun of people for believing in it?

I worked for a woman who built a shrine to the fairy goddesses that she created herself. She literally prayed to her own self-made deities, and sacrificed organic fruits to them.

You have to admit that that is frakking hilarious.

so much disrespect from some of the atheists here. makes me sick. I’m agnostic and I don’t give a shit what anyone believes. I give a shit about how you treat others. 9 times out of 10 here at Fluther it is an atheist, not the religious, who is rude and disrespectful. hmmm.

i love you mousie :)

9 out of 10 Flutherites are atheists. That’s just math.

I just saw this video and I wonder if this approach to God had been the way some of the more vocal opponents here were raised if maybe they wouldn’t have the level of disgust they seem to have now.
I have no idea who this guy is btw.

As long as religion continues to promote ignorance and punish free inquiry, the disgust will continue.

@Seek_Kolinahr sure, but not on any particular religion bashing question. There are almost as many religious as there is atheists, but the majority of jerks are the atheists. just sayin’.

Maybe if you focus more on the individual and not their belief you might not get disgusted so easily.

@Seek_Kolinahr the religion you know promotes ignorance and punishes free inquiry. That does not mean all religion or religious people do. Your behavior is as narrow minded and ignorant as that you claim to loathe when you refuse to acknowledge that reality.

@seek, did you watch the link? He said almost the same thing.

@SuperMouse I get it, you’re special. Better?

No @Seek_Kolinahr you clearly do not get it.

@Seek_Kolinahr Would you respect a religious person if they bent with society like I explained earlier? That is, them respecting the separation of Church and State and you respecting the First Amendment?

The First Amendment gives you the right to say what you please. It does not give you the right to an audience.

It certainly doesn’t give you the right to not be ridiculed if you say something stupid.

@Seek_Kolinahr That’s not what I asked. I was talking about this quip.

While I am ambivalent regarding all organized religion, it seems to me that most worshipers of any denomination are always pretty quick to cherry-pick the undeniably “good” parts of their faith, and what benefits they bring to the human condition while either ignoring or giving some kind of generic “pat answer” to anyone who presents them with a legitimate opposing viewpoint relative to the “not-so-good” points.

Q: How can a loving God allow things like The Holocaust to occur ?
PA: Well….sometimes you just have to have faith in God’s plan.

From everything I can see, Seek Kolinahr is not being arrogant or disrespectful to anyone in any way, but in fact only seems to be throwing out there some valid thoughts and ideas which are meant to encourage people to think for themselves.

I’m just sitting in the cheap seats, but SK’s thoughts sound pretty intelligent, not offensive, and clear-thinking people might want to mix some of these thoughts in with whatever some guy in a robe tells them every week.

And as far as I can tell, Seek Kolinahr never passes a collection plate…

.

@Seek_Kolinahr You’ve done nothing on this thread but prove that you do in fact mock the people themselves, and not just the idea. You’ve baited, belittled, and mocked all over the place. And @SuperMouse is a person, not an idea.

@jonsblond has it 100% right when she says that 9 out of 10 times, it’s the athiests who are the most rude and disrespectful on the religious questions. (I can’t count the number of times I’ve said the same thing about jellies.) Take a look at @johnpowell‘s comment if you need proof. Several atheists on this thread are the only ones being assholes. As is the case 99.9% of the time here.

In my time here, I think I’ve seen perhaps 3–4 questions about religion/God/believers that didn’t devolve into an atheist asshole party from hell. And that’s pretty fucking pathetic, considering I’ve been active here for three years. It seems that it’s great for “religious” people to keep their beliefs to themselves, but it’s just fucking awesome for anti-theists to blast their disbeliefs all over the place, in fact, it’s encouraged! How’s that for deliciously one-sided keep it to yourself hypocrisy?

@WillWorkForChocolate The thing is, some of us are trying to help atheists and others understand so we keep hoping and talking and explaining, and in the end it doesn’t matter because it’s more fuel for the atheist fire.

Funnily enough I noticed the same thing in my own family when my auntie turned from God. She worshipped the Goddess, had group massage and didn’t allow me to say God to her friends or in her home. But none of that mattered I loved her. Then I discovered that she was treating people very poorly. Maybe it’s an atheist thing, being rude and disrespectful.

Shit! Don’t hold back! Again.

You know I never do.

Considering that Fluther is pretty much the exact inverse of greater society, yep, I’ll take it.

You’ll note that we don’t discourage religious people from talking about their beliefs, we just want them justified. We might complain that the religious schools are getting taxpayer funds, or the local Scout troupe isn’t allowing children of atheist parents, or that the Salvation Army is inexplicably interwoven into the criminal justice system. Does that make me angry? Fuck yes it does. Do I have much of an outlet for those words in daily life? NO. Why? because the newspaper is run by theists, and there’s a potluck at the Methodist church they need to cover instead. Can I bring it up at the county commission meeting? Sure, but they’re opening the meeting with an invocation in the Name of Jesus, and there’s a scripture at the top of the agenda.

So am I going to feel sorry for anyone when they choose to come to a website, and choose to enter a debate with people who they know think differently than they do?

No. No I’m not. If you don’t like it, don’t participate.

I disagree. It’s a personality thing, I think @KNOWITALL. It’s so easy to sarcastically say, “Oh, yeah. Sure. Where did Adam and Eve’s grandkids come from?” It’s a little harder to just say ,“MKay,” and let it go.
It’s the personality that decides to get snarky, or just let it go.

Might be fake

At least, I hope it is.

and it always ends up with if you don’t like it gtfo. We need to ask Ben to add that to their greetings at the top of the page.~

@KNOWITALL personally I don’t give a shit whether @Seek_Kolinahr understands my faith. In this place especially I have given up any attachment I might have had about wanting people to understand my beliefs because I know that is just a dream. No need to read any farther that this very thread to see that is the truth. That being said, I will never stop clarifying what I believe because to me it is a matter of self-respect, even when I know it will not be heard much less understood.

I just get ridiculously tired of people who think they understand it (and everyone else’s for that matter), and decide that their disagreeing with it gives them the right to attack me. Because Christians are a majority, atheists (on Fluther at least) believe they are completely justified in all of their prejudices against any person/people of faith. What most of the atheists on Fluther refuse to acknowledge is that attacking, mocking, and calling people ignorant based on what they believe is just as wrong as all they claim to hate about religion. It makes no sense. Rather than even considering this fact they call theists thin skinned and encourage us to leave and/or resort to snarky comments. That does not compute.

I know a few atheist jellies who are delightful people, and choose to not participate in the bashing. It’s totally a personality thing. I can have a calm discussion with them. I can’t have a calm discussion with someone who calls me stupid, insane, retarded, delusional, etc… That gets my back up and the calm gloves come off.

If more atheists understood that their poor choice of words is what causes the problem with rational discourse, then we wouldn’t keep going ‘round and ‘round with this. It’s my right to participate here, just as it’s my right to call a spade a spade when someone is completely out of line.

Maybe my beliefs are incorrect; I won’t know until I die. But I am certainly not stupid or insane or any of the other bullshit brushes I’m painted with by those who disagree with me, nor do I force my beliefs on anyone, or kill in the name of God, or discriminate against homosexuals, etc… There are many, many other believers like me, but they are immediately lumped into the category of “those prejudiced, homophobic, racist, bible-thumping loonies” as soon as they say “I believe in God.” THAT is stupid, and anyone who says differently, is the delusional one.

@jonsblond The alternative is stifling free inquiry, which oddly enough is exactly what we’re arguing against in the first place.

Why is it the nonbelievers that need to sit down and shut up? What is it about your societal construct that gets automatic “respect”?

Theists can degrade, insult, scorn, ridicule, and demonize every person they choose not to agree with, and protect that speech by saying “This is my belief, this is my religion”. But once someone says “Hey, you got any proof for that invisible deity you’re going on about?” all of a sudden there’s a problem.

Look, this place is voluntary. I’m participating in this thread because I believe it’s a fight worth having. There are other fights I stay away from, either because I’m not educated on the topic or because my beliefs aren’t that strong.

Again, if you don’t feel the comment applies to you, great. I’m glad you’re not a Bible thumping loony. Really. But that doesn’t mean I don’t have the right to speak against Bible thumping loonies. It just means you shouldn’t take those words personally. If you CHOOSE to take them personally, I can’t prevent you from doing so.

Freedom of speech goes both ways. You don’t have to respect my words any more than I have to respect yours. But we BOTH have the right to say them.

The way i see it everyone is being illogical. My dear mousie told me once to be logical about things. I admit that I did not start off on the right foot with mousie but I was actually in the moment very stuck in the “feeling mocked” and having my bipolar flaring, so i believe i was just going at anyone. But logically speaking now I want to leave the same comment I left at the last God thread I lost it on :/ again I apologize, I am trying to hold in the bipolar.

Whether you are an atheist or a theist or Buddhist or a naturalist or scientist or whatever! The fact is we don’t know how we got here so we all are pretty much illogical in our thinking so really the mocking bullshit has got to go I agree with mousie on that ;):

“You do know that something exists if you follow this simple logic. Since you know you can’t get something from nothing, therefore, an essential and supreme Being exists. Not logical enough for you? keep reading.”

“People wonder does God exist? Some people may wonder how come we have something rather than nothing at all? Or how did everything around us get there?
What you can’t deny is that we do exist because you have to exist in order to deny your own existence (which is self-defeating), so the first is true and you do exist. No one has ever demonstrated that something (even us) can come from nothing so then lets say that is true. Therefore a supreme Being is responsible for everything that exists and I believe that Being is God.”

@nofurbelowsbatgirl But where did God come from, if everything came from something?

In the words of Rodney King, “Can’t we all just get along?”

@Seek_Kolinahr Its what I just said we are all illogical how did the galaxies get here? The big bang, it all started as nothing first.

“Theists can degrade, insult, scorn, ridicule, and demonize every person they choose not to agree with, and protect that speech by saying “This is my belief, this is my religion”. But once someone says “Hey, you got any proof for that invisible deity you’re going on about?” all of a sudden there’s a problem.”

But there is no real proof and neither do you have proof God doesn’t exist. It’s an endless circle, so if we’re nasty about it, what’s the point?

@Dutchess You’re right, I know plenty of atheists and people of other belief systems that are completely cool. I am just over the made-up justification’s for poor behavior and intentionally trying to hurt people who haven’t hurt you.

@nofurbelowsbatgirl We have no idea where the Big Bang came from. We can’t see back that far yet. The difference is, we’re not claiming to know something we don’t.

@Seek_Kolinahr I believe you asked a question recently that was a cry for help. You were in a dark place. Then you expressed your love for the site with a video and artwork. If I’m not mistaken, many of the people who offered love and support to you, you are now calling Bible thumping loonies. I don’t see any of them calling you names here. :(

@KNOWITALL You can’t prove a negative. It’s logically impossible. Burden of proof rests on the believer.

Can I just say something that just struck me like a wet fish in the face? Yes…why thank you.
Over here in the UK believers/theists/christians, whatever you want to label them, are more or less left in peace with their faith.
There’s no great appetite to deride/mock them or their beliefs, maybe it’s different in the US, I don’t know. Either way, religion is not something that’s aired publicly over here & certainly not a topic of general interest amongst friends, in fact, i’ve really no idea what most of my pals religious beliefs are, they are what they are regardless.

I don’t recall calling anyone a Bible Thumping Loony. I believe I specifically said one could decide for themselves whether they were a Bible Thumping Loony.

“Left in peace.” Amen.

@Seek_Kolinahr you are the only one claiming that the theists on this site are arguing against free inquiry. No one is telling non-believers to sit down and shut up. All anyone is asking is that you stop being so nasty and judgmental in sharing what you believe and stop starting threads for the sole purpose of mocking the beliefs of others. Why is that too much to ask? I just don’t see how the fact that the majority of religious people in this country are Christian gives you the right to be as obnoxious, sarcastic, and condescending as you chose in a thread like this then tell anyone who doesn’t like it to leave. That’s like saying you ran the stop sign because the guy in front of you did it so you don’t deserve a ticket. Instead of addressing that question you go with the snarky comments.

@nofurbelowsbatgirl isn’t claiming to know something she doesn’t, she is claiming to believe something she doesn’t know for sure. Of course this will be belittled by you but that comes from her faith and no matter how many others who believe that have oppressed you in your life, it is still her faith and there is no reason for you to be nasty about it.

@SuperMouse I have never. Ever. Not once. Started a thread about religion. I did once ask about the crazy Mormon stalkers, but that was legit intrusion into my life by religious people.

@Seek_Kolinahr I don’t want to be part of anything attacking you personally, ever, so this will be my last post on this thread.

If I were trying to convert you or save your soul, I still couldn’t prove God exists, it’s a faith-based religion. Peace & love ya’ll, I’m outtie.

I love you@Seek. Especially the way you speak your truth.

@Seek_Kolinahr you seem to be a huge fan of splitting hairs and playing semantics to justify your behavior. I never said you started a thread. I spoke of threads that were started to mock religion and spoke of nasty judgmental behavior in threads such as this. Whether you want to admit it or not, you have been judgmental and nasty in this thread.

I feel like I very clearly understand your position. You believe that because you grew up in an oppressive religious environment and because there is a Christian majority in our country you can say anything you would like to to anyone who believes in God – no matter how obnoxious or hurtful – and feel completely justified. I get it.

@Seek_Kolinahr I just happen to believe that God started it all and that may be illogical to you but everything you believe is illogical to me. For example Buddhists rid themselves of all desires. Yet, one must have a desire to rid oneself of all desires, which is illogical.

I am also not claiming I know that God exists. I actually think the proof of God existing is more profitable for me than the big bang, sorry. So that is why I prefer to choose to believe in that because to me it makes more sense.

@SuperMouse * All anyone is asking is that you stop being so nasty and judgmental in sharing what you believe and stop starting threads for the sole purpose of mocking the beliefs of others.

Can’t very well stop what I haven’t started.

I don’t have the right to speak against religion because I’ve been hurt, I have the right to speak against religion because I have the right to speak. I don’t have the right to be heard, or respected, any more than the religious do.

If you take issue with my words, that’s OK. Please question them. I’ll be happy to argue my point. Most of the time, I have a basis and justification for the things I say. When a religious person speaks out, I have the right to question that as well.

And if you really don’t like the things I say, that’s fine. You don’t have to be my friend if you don’t want to. There are many, many people in this world that very specifically dislike me. I’m related to most of them. And I’m OK with that, because in my opinion, truth is more important than popularity.

I will end thus, both @Seek_Kolinahr & @KNOWITALL are totally bodacious babes dude & they’re on totally opposite sides when it comes to religion…you see, it really doesn’t matter at all.

We’re not saying non-believers have to sit down and shut up. What we’re saying is that non-believers who tell believers to sit down and shut up, while those same non-believers spew their anti-believer hatred, need to follow their own damned advice.

(Found ucme’s intermission enjoyable. :))

@Mama_Cakes Just a little light relief, you know me…childish & immature til the end :)

Can’t we all just agree to disagree?

On Fluther? The only way to accomplish that is if we all magically agree that God is a fairy tale and believers are on crack. Rabid, anti-God jellies leave no room for middle ground.

@Seek_Kolinahr you do not, nor will you ever get it because you don’t want to get it. Be as obnoxious as you want. It suits you. FYI, you are a bright enough woman to understand that the you in that sentence was referring to all of the Fluther atheists.

@ucme Hear hear kind sir!!!

What is the “it” that I’m apparently so incapable of “getting”? Will someone explain that to me?

Well, this thread has gotten repetitive and boring as most Fluther religious “debates” usually do.

Either we start talking about food, or I go cram crucifixes down the throats of atheists, bury statues all over my yard, burn a few witches homosexuals at the stake, protest for a ban on stilletos, and start a war in the name of my God.

Fuck, I forgot. My belief in God doesn’t mean I actually do any of those things! Phew!

I vote for pizza.

@Seek_Kolinahr This is not a popularity contest ;( I thought we figured that out on my banished thread :/

@ucme I like this one.

@nofurbelowsbatgirl I’m not looking for one.

@Seek_Kolinahr several people on this very thread have tried to explain it to you and you remain willfully ignorant. It is no longer worth the trouble.

Cheers.

@Seek_Kolinahr I know because you said “truth is more important than popularity.” But its just the way you said it, I don’t think @SuperMouse doesn’t want to not be your friend because you do not have the same ideas in life. That is all I mean.

@Mama_Cakes Ha, good old Benny, that tune can officially make anything look funny

Is this it?

No, it’s too hairy.

In the spirit of lightening the mood, here’s my contribution.

It’s interesting because I believe there was a question asked in the past about what exactly constitutes “mocking”. We all believe certain things are ridiculous. I believe that it’s ridiculous to claim that the Jews are behind all of the world’s evil in some massive Zionist conspiracy (yes, there are people who believe this). I believe it’s ridiculous to think that a certain race can be superior to another based on nothing other than their skin color. These are all ridiculous beliefs and ideas and are potentially dangerous to society, so of course I will call them out as such.

But, as some people have pointed out, it seems that no one can call out religious beliefs for being the same way. Now, I’d say it depends on the belief. If it’s your belief that all non-believers in your religion should be killed or at the least forcibly converted, I’m sorry, but I think that’s a ridiculous belief. But that one is in a more obvious state. Other times, the line between what we can call a “ridiculous belief” and what we should just leave alone is more subtle.

Think about it this way: as an atheist, I don’t believe that your deity exists. I don’t believe that you are actually reaching anything metaphysical when you pray. I don’t believe that your actions are actually being done in the name of a deity. Now, when worded that way, doesn’t it sound a little, well…harsh? I don’t have to be an atheist either, I could simply be a Hindu and don’t believe in any deities other than the Hindu deities. So could a Christian or Jew say the same thing to a Hindu or a traditional Native American religion. As an atheist, I believe that your deity is as non-existent as any other non-existent entity, whatever that may be. Can you see how this comes so close to “YOUR GOD IS SANTA CLAUS LOLZORS!”. Fine, fine line. But this is the just harsh reality of having differing beliefs from someone, and I think this is where some of the “mocking” comes from, crossing these fine lines.

I have met Christians who think atheism is absolutely insane. “How could you not believe in God when the evidence is all around you? Atheists are truly nuts. They choose to ignore all the evidence, they are willfully ignorant, they are arrogant fools who think humans are the ultimate power and they don’t want to have to answer for their actions.” See how the same type of attitude that some of these “hard-core atheists” have can be mirrored in theists. It may not happen on crazy liberal Fluther, but it happens. Not saying that excuses atheists doing that, but it is possible to picture it from your side.

Another issue is the fact a belief or an opinion does not automatically deserve respect by the nature of it being a belief or an opinion. What exactly does it mean to “respect a belief”? To not mock it? Seems easy enough. To acknowledge that it’s just as valid as any other belief? That’s where it gets tricky. The fact is: I don’t respect the belief that I am somehow debased because I am a homosexual. I don’t believe that that belief is worthy of my personal respect. Will I openly mock someone for it? No. But will I respect it? Also no. If respect means more than just not mocking something. If not, well, then I guess I do respect it.

But the fact is: most of the time, mocking is obvious. At least to me. Challenging someone’s assertion that the earth is 6000 years old can be done without saying “you’re an idiot for believing that”. Arguing against a certain claim by citing a Bible verse can be done without “you’re a fool for not seeing it”. To question, ask for evidence, criticize—these can all be done without mocking, although sometimes the line is fine.

Anyway, this all over the place, but just thought I’d throw something in.

Equality :D

I can always count on you for equal opportunity when it comes to the bits. You rock, man. You like the bald pussy in my avatar? And now, to combine the two.

Do I like bald pussy? Hahahahahaha… err, yeah, yeah I do :)

Not to keep bothering people with my thinking out loud, but this question brought up an interesting idea:

At what point do we get to call a belief “ridiculous”? Do we ever get to call a belief “ridiculous”? There are some beliefs that may seem to automatically warrant such a designation: the belief that certain races/genders are inferior, the belief that certain types of people (non-believers, homosexuals, whatever) should be killed, etc. Oh yeah, those are ridiculous, sure.

But is it just because those beliefs can harm people? Frankly, I think scientology is really, really ridiculous. I really think it is. But if I meet a scientologist, I’m not going to tell them that unless A) they try to convert me or insult my beliefs, B) they try to use their beliefs for some kind of harm to society. Otherwise, I don’t think there’s any real reason to tell someone their beliefs are ridiculous even if it is what you believe because as I said, I think we all have some ideas/beliefs/thoughts that we consider “ridiculous”.

Okay, I’m done for now…

@DominicX I probably asked that question ten times. Never got an answer.

Quietly asks, “Group hug?”

@DominicX But if I meet a scientologist, I’m not going to tell them that unless A) they try to convert me or insult my beliefs, B) they try to use their beliefs for some kind of harm to society. Otherwise, I don’t think there’s any real reason to tell someone their beliefs are ridiculous even if it is what you believe because as I said, I think we all have some ideas/beliefs/thoughts that we consider “ridiculous”

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a theist try to convert anyone here at Fluther with their questions or try to harm anyone here with their beliefs (at least no one here on this thread), yet some users still mock and belittle those who are religious. @SuperMouse asked us what are gut reaction is to these types of questions. You are right. There is no good reason to tell someone their beliefs are ridiculous if the person isn’t trying to convert you or insult your beliefs.

<hugs @Plucky and distributes pizza>

Wow, this got heated while I was gone. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. It is entirely possible to disagree without being disagreeable. There are ways to speak your truth and be kind at the same time. I wish everyone, whatever their beliefs (or lack thereof), would figure that out. Life would be ever so much more pleasant.

PS: I’m an atheist, as I think everyone knows.

I think we can think that others’ beliefs are ridiculous without having to tell them that. Like @DominicX said, unless they’re trying to convert us or harm us, why get into it if it can be avoided. Even if someone tried to convert me to something I didn’t agree with, I don’t necessarily have to tell them they’re ridiculous. It’s possible to just say “No thank you, I’m not interested.”

Hey. Now all atheists are to blame?

I’m never going to the dentist again. 32 new responses in the 2 hours I was gone…
Going with Auggie…there have been some very disagreeable thing said….on both sides in this thread.

You know I am also realizing it is almost entirely impossible to always understand everything someone is trying to get across on the internet. Without facial expression we have to take everything we read as point blank statements, (ok lighten the mood and my mind just wandered to a dirty place o_0) and even with styling our text we have no clue if the person on the other side is having a full anger issue screaming at their computer. And we cannot always even be certain if someone is serious or not.

But I can be sure that I am trying my hardest to be the best I can be to be sensitive to others ideas and beliefs and feelings. I do at times have some downfalls as I have bipolar. We could play the blame game all day.

At the end of the day I think this is human failure and the blame should rest squarely on all of our shoulders, then equally we can disperse the pegs. To me, it has nothing to do with any one religion or belief system or lack thereof.

@tinyfaery No one said that. As usual, you like to twist things to stir the shit pot back up.

Now then… pizza????? Anyone? If not pizza, tacos? Fries? Pancakes, for crying out frizzing loud?

I definitely wasn’t singling out atheists in my comment. There have been some unkind comments from both sides.

@DominicX your line. be it super fine or a mile wide, is pretty clearly crossed with questions that are undeniably written to mock people of faith. I am not going to link them, but there were two questions asked recently that were clearly meant to serve no purpose other then to mock believers. That is over the line and mean spirited. If I asked the question “why is it that only idiots believe conspiracy theories?” that would be considered over the line as well. Not to mention offensive to one of my favorite jellies of all time.

My response to the “when does it become ok to disrespect the belief” is the same as always. It is always ok to question beliefs. I harbor no resentment toward anyone who does not believe what I do and I don’t think I am better than anyone else because I believe what I do. I maintain that what isn’t ok is to think that because someone’s beliefs are different, everyone who believes something different has the right and responsibility to call them ridiculous and ignorant. When someone starts calling someone ignorant or ridiculous because that person holds different beliefs, they are setting up an adversarial discussion and asking for an argument. I believe that any Fluther theist who says they don’t know this is being dishonest.

I can’t for the life of me figure out why people who consistently try to flaunt what they consider to be their intellectual superiority over us ignorant believers cannot grasp that when they are obnoxious and judgmental, they are doing the very thing the accuse theists of doing. But not only do they refuse to admit this, they continue right on with the mocking and belittling and feel completely justified in their behaviors. I am not going to change anyone’s mind about racism or abortion or the death penalty or any other hot button issue by beginning with “well you are ignorant because you believe the way you do.” For some reason many of the atheists on Fluther believe it is their duty to react this way to the Fluther theists. If there really is a sincere interest in having a dialog then there are more appropriate ways to make that happen.

@tinyfaery I apologize for leaving out the words “obnoxious and judgmental” in my sentence about “all the Fluther atheists.” There are some atheists on Fluther that manage to share what they believe in a respectful way, you and @augustlan are among them.

Sooooooo, what’s everybody doing for Christmas this year? I was thinking of making a rum cake.

Can you send me one @Kardamom? I actually like Christmas cake and pudding. I was watching something the other day and it was about Christmas and there was snow. I felt very homesick for a while. I want a cold Christmas.

Thanks, @SuperMouse I hoped I was not one of those annoying atheists. You know me. I generally just don’t give a shit about other people, let alone care if they believe in god. I got all my arguing about that done with my mother.

@Will Work Someone did make a generalization about atheists and she admitted it.

I guess you are the one to stir the pot.

Oh come on I want to think of summer first!

Raise your hand if you’re open minded. CHRISTMAS! No! I haven’t recovered from last Christmas!

My gut reaction? It makes me understand why Fox News can talk about a war on religion and people take it seriously. I am agnostic, raised Catholic, and I hold an expensive degree in Religion and Mythology. I really couldn’t care less about what other people think, but I love religion because it is a shorthand for the human condition. What were people thinking? What are they thinking now in their deepest heart of hearts?

Before I came to Fluther, I ran into some very religious people and wondered how they came to be so opinionated that the looked down on Atheists or Agnostics. I just chalked it up to some weird mental unbalance and a person who was uncomfortable unless everybody agreed that they were “Right”. Now I see Atheists doing it to religious people. I just chalk it up to the same impulse.

Guys, could we just mellow and respect everyone’s point of view. No one knows the answer to this.

@Adirondackwannabe why do you always respond after me? Like I am the instigator?

No. I never noticed that. You’re answers are great. I just try to be a peacemaker.

It gives me a warm glow. It gives me hope that one day we might just make that collective leap into sanity vs. fairy tales. Seriously.

@Adirondackwannabe Guys, could we just mellow and respect everyone’s point of view. You are a sweet guy, but I’m afraid it ain’t going to happen. There are some here who don’t know the meaning of respect and I’m afraid they never will.

@jonsblond Exactly.

I am just realizing the best thing to do is try not to respond to flamers out here who want to start flame wars.

Hug more pillows yall.

I tend to have a look at them for the entertainment value (everyone knows that questions mocking religion in any way tend to start a debate and here, those can be good popcorn moments). I don’t get offended because I don’t care if someone else wants to mock my belief butt do find people’s (on both sides of the arguement) arrogance on those questions really amusing.

@ucme Your posts on this thread made me chuckle a lot but I also agree with your “sensible” answer too. It seems rare that in every day conversation amongst friends/acquaintances, religious views cause a heated debate where I live. Whether or not a person believes in a God doesn’t seem to be advertised as much as it would appear to be in the States.

We in the States have to be outraged every day.

Every American I have met has actually been lovely, it is one of the reasons I go back every year. I hope my last comment didn’t sound like a dig,it wasn’t meant too.

I didn’t take it as such. I mean, if it’s the truth, it’s the truth. I wish I could go visit another country. I’d probably be shell shocked! They’d have to lock me up!

@Leanne1986 Imagine having a region of the UK known as the “bible belt”...just don’t sound right, everyone would just take the piss.

Oh God. I live there!! In the Bible belt!!

Seeing as though a large portion of this thread is like walking on eggshells, I should qualify my comment to @Leanne1986.
Calling a region bible belt over here just wouldn’t suit us, come on…we’re Brits right?

Brit belt?

237 answers plus this one makes 238. That’s a lot of Jelly Fluthering!

Now I get it. I’m in Canada I’m waaay tooo nice fer this shite!
239.

Oh shit, it’s turned into fucking Sesame Street…ha, ha, ha…I am the cunt count.

^As long as you aren’t Elmo the pedophile. :(

@ucme : You sure are batty, batty, batty ;)

Sesame Street is totally about drugs. I mean seriously, a guy with bloodshot eyes who lives in a garbage can? Cmon man.

Todays word jellies is “portmanteau”, instead of the vulagarity of the word shit let’s teach the little bustards the word SHART.

Now we count ha ha ha make it so number 1

Today were going to think about the words Jelly & Anger Management…“sunny day, chasing the clouds away…”
@bookish1 Well I don’t bite…hard ;-}

^Anger management? OK. I’ll start. Food fight.

Here have a nekkid pancake you bloody hijacker!

lolz

Slightly disturbed, but coping admirably.

I’m going to McDonalds. Ya’ll want anything?

Bacon Habanero Ranch Quarter Pounder, Thanx !

Food glorious food
Hot sausage & mustard
While we’re in the mood
Cold jelly & custard

@Tropical_Willie It’s breakfast! They don’t serve lunch till 10:30 and I’m not making another trip!

@ucme I live very close to Stonehenge, I see more Pagan types than any other religion I reckon!!!

You live close to Stonehenge? That’s very cool. But do they have a McD’s close to Stonehenge? That’s very important. (Is eating at McD’s a sin?)

@Leanne1986 What, the actual Stonehenge? :)

@Dutchess_III There is a service station not far from Stonehenge, I know they have a KFC but not sure about McDs. I recently read a advert for a job to be a site manager at Stonehenge and one of the responsibilities was “liase with druid leaders” (those were the exact words). I thought that sounded really cool!!!

@ucme HA! Not quite that small!!!

I’d liaise the fuck out of some Druid leaders. Pantheists are fun.

@Leanne1986 I don’t know, what with Longleat & Stonehenge practically on your doorstep, you live in a cool part of the country m’dear…i’m actually reasonably jealous.

@ucme I do like it here but I actually plan to move up north at some point. I suppose this goes to show that you don’t always see the beauty around you as much as others who don’t see it every day. Longleat is only fun until a monkey pulls the windscreen wipers off your car!!

@Leanne1986 Yeah, that is one drawback. We have “cool” stuff here mind, there’s Durham Cathedral, Hadrian’s Wall & the angel of the north…my god, how crap is that? :D

This question is why I’d asked a similar one here a few months ago. Perhaps I’m one of the few theists on here who enjoys debating nontheists, but I do feel there’s a time and place when it comes to debating certain issues pertaining to theism and religion.
Personally I likely wouldn’t be on fluther if it wasn’t for the questions about religion and god. I’m also not sure why some see civil debate relating to religion/god as a bad thing.

I’ll agree that some of the religious/theistic questions seem to be posted for the sole purpose of stirring up the pot on here, but most in my opinion aren’t. Try being a secularist posting on a predominantly mainstream religious site like I have if you want to see true intolerance for other’s beliefs/nonbeliefs. In all fairness I’ve seen some religious people on here take pot shots at the beliefs of others as well, and then when they’re challenged they cry religious intolerence. I’ve seen some nontheists post some immature comments as well, but personally as a theist I’d rather try to beat them through debate rather than whining.

@Dutchess_III It was about here on the NC.

Thanks for getting back to the topic, @Paradox25.

sure, but not on any particular religion bashing question. There are almost as many religious as there is atheists, but the majority of jerks are the atheists. just sayin’.

Maybe if you focus more on the individual and not their belief you might not get disgusted so easily.

The difference is atheist don’t care. I’m happy if that is what you need to not be a bad person. Good for you.

But I really want to see some evidence that there is a ton of atheist attacks. I’m pretty sure I can counter one for one with Christian stupidity.

wow logical fallacy much? :/

Hark, kettle, thou art black?

Racism rears it’s ugly head…makes my blood boil, much like a kettle in fact :D

I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living, it’s a way of looking at life through the wrong end of a telescope. Which is what I do, and that enables you to laugh at life’s realities.
To me,  Dr. Theophrastus Seuss was a smart man. :)

Well, his last name was Geisel, but I’ll forgive that.

Also, some mockery for your morning

@johnpowell I’ve got a life to live. Keep fighting buddy. Have fun. I really don’t give a shit. :)

This is a killer. My sisters Mother in Law posted a thing about Obama taking a family vacation to Africa and how it’s going to cost the tax payers money, yadda yadda. Then another gal came on (I think it was her sister) and snarled, “I hope they stay there!”
I should have just shut up but I posted ” Wow. You hope they stay there? That wasn’t a nice thing to say at all.”

She said, “It wasn’t meant to be nice.”

(At this point I checked her wall, and sure as shit, Jesus is all over it)

I said ” Why would you say something so deliberately mean? That’s the provenance of bullies. It’s fine if you don’t like some one, but there’s no call to be so hateful.

She said “The last time I looked this was the USA where I have the right to say whatever I want to say about whoever I want to say it about. If you don’t like it to bad. Go live in a country where you have to think all the same.”

I said ” Of course you have the right to say whatever you want. I’m not saying otherwise. You have the choice to be kind and Christian-like, or mean spirited and rude. And you made your choice. I just thought it was unnecessarily mean—as though there is a time to be “necessarily mean,” LOL!”
Heh…had the chance to work the words “Christian-like” in there. Take that!

Her final response was “Valerie grow up. I am 70 years old and I don’t need a lecture from snot nosed bleeding heart liberal like you. As for your comments I just consider the source.”

I just said, “OK.”

“Christians” like that just turn my stomach.

Oh, our country is LOADED with people like her.

Almost without exception, you’ll routinely find them watching FoxNews, and either pumping their fist in the air, or staring blankly with their mouths open at the “revelations” provided by these “experts” being “interviewed” on there day-in-and-day out.

Then they will lecture everybody else relative to how much better “informed” everyone would be if they regularly watched this shameful. phony-baloney programming, presented as “news”...
.

And how Christian they are.

And how Christian they are….

And how you’re supposed to love everybody except __ insert loooong list here. Those people it’s OK to insult. God doesn’t have anything to do with them either.

Oh, I’m sure that we are ALL God’s children…...except for….you know…...them, and them…. and them…....and, oh yeah…..them….

But I really want to see some evidence that there is a ton of atheist attacks. I’m pretty sure I can counter one for one with Christian stupidity.

Great point. You’re all dicks regardless of what you believe.

ga

I get why I feel picked on. OK people I live in a city in Canada. It is very conservative here. People do not know how to handle stuff here anyway, this city would go down in flames lol I mean some lady called the newspaper not long ago because a pack of “aggressive coyotes” was stalking her and her dogs while she was walking in the forest. :/ lmao.

When I was a kid it was a hick town now the city is starting to grow and probably is 0.125 of the size of Toronto whos population is about 2.8 million and I’ll be moving soon anyway because its still way too many people for me.

@johnpowell I would like a few examples of Christians ‘going off’ on jellies here, I’ve not seen any and hope I won’t.

They tend to not hang around long @KNOWITALL. They get frustrated when people ask for clarification, and they can’t really provide it or are asked questions they can’t answer. They perceive it as an “attack.” I can’t think of anyone specifically on this site at the moment, but there were some on wis.dm.

Keep it coming! Let’s debate.

I’m proud to be part of the Western civilization endorsing enlightenment, human rights and free speech.

Sometimes I get a bit annoyed when the same (simple) messages get repeated over and over and over.

I’ve become pretty bored with the whole debate, in general. I used to love this stuff before, but there’s not much to say anymore. I’ve learned so much talking about this stuff, but I think I’ve come to my conclusion. I’m not as much of a rabid atheist as I used to be (I never was rabid, just obnoxious), and now I’m just a “Whatever, some people are just going to be believe those things.” type of person.

It was a fun ride, but I just like to observe now. The jokes are still funny, though.

@Blackberry “I’m just a “Whatever, some people are just going to be believe those things.” type of person.” I know what you mean. I used to get really involved when people tried to justify their belief system. I’m at the point where I want to avoid religion and I won’t say anything unless some “missionary” tries to convert me. I do have fun when the Mormon kids drop by. I have also done my part in “un-converting” Jehovah’s Witnesses.

There aren’t too many “born again” types around here. They seem to be engaged in the Republican Party hi-jinx and contest to see who can make the most ridiculous statements. Too bad because I really enjoyed answering their questions or responding to their answers. I have to go to tea party questions and sites for real entertainment.

@Ron_C I talk to Jehovah’s Witness people all the time. How do you go about un-converting them? I’m curious.

@dxs I had a long talk with a young couple that were making the rounds of my neighborhood. I listened to their view of religion and “biblical truths”. Then I asked a couple questions and suggested that it might not be a good idea to mess with god. The god in the bible was jealous and vengeful. The good were tested, the bad were punished. I asked if it wouldn’t be a good idea to be neither too good or too bad and to avoid drawing god’s attention. The god in the bible and koran is too unstable to mess with.

The couple asked a couple more questions then left with thoughtful expressions. I want to believe that I “un-converted” them and they found better things to do during the weekend.

^^Like drinking beer? :)

Going to birthday parties?

arousal.

1st: Indignant, because God is in me and I am an adopted child of the King, so it is akin to insulting my parent.

2nd: A sort of icky feeling as when you see some wet-behind-the-ear-kid cussing out his/her parent.

3rd: Sadness because the person doing the mocking will have to answer to it once they leave this earthly existence. Oo, would I like to be a fly on the wall when they have to explain to the being that created them why they mocked Him; that would be very interesting.