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Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

Why does it seem that many people who cannot get into the spirit of questions about God and answer on the belief He exist?

Asked by Hypocrisy_Central (26840points) July 15th, 2013

Someone ask a question about God, but rather than answer in the spirit of the question as if God exist, others will answer to either state that they don’t believe, therefore, they either won’t answer, or they go off context and question what is God, or whose god, etc. Why can’t those people stay on point and answer question about God in context, and in the spirit of the question?

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126 Answers

glacial's avatar

Those answers are on point. That’s the point.

If the question is based on a faulty premise, it is impossible to answer it directly, in the context in which it is asked. So the premise is what needs to be addressed.

Berserker's avatar

If I don’t believe in God, I’m not going to pretend that I do and make up an answer. I’ve also rarely ever seen any God questions here that were limited to theists only, and in the instances that there have been such questions, they’re usually specified as being for believers only, or preferably, anyways.
This is Fluther, we’re supposed to be about discussion and exploration, and not just follow the whim of those who have something specific they want to hear. In such a case, you make your own blog, or go to sites that specialize in certain subjects.

Rarebear's avatar

Because they’re the same old questions asked over and over and over and over again, without any resolution. The same people comment on their respective sides, and nothing new ever comes out of it. It’s the same old shit, different day.

Pachy's avatar

Because many people, as they have the right to do, don’t agree with you that He exists—or at least question it . We they feel the need to be heard, too.

But they’re still good people, @Hypocrisy_Central. Oh, and I’m one of ‘em.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@glacial If the question is based on a faulty premise, it is impossible to answer it directly, in the context in which it is asked. So the premise is what needs to be addressed. Based off the criteria you just stated if you seen a question that asked, “what would you do if you could fly like Superman?” you would answer the question by stating Superman is not real, and the laws of physics do not allow a man to fly by cape or anything else, thus, the question on its merits is invalid. Is that how you would answer all such questions as that?

@Symbeline If I don’t believe in God, I’m not going to pretend that I do and make up an answer.
If anyone asked “what would you feed your pet dragon?” you would not answer it unless you believed in dragons? Or maybe point out dragons or myths instead of answering the question?

@Rarebear The same people comment on their respective sides, and nothing new ever comes out of it.
Maybe the people who don’t believe or won’t fathom far enough to put themselves in the moment of the question should pass on it as they would a bad movie or book.

@Pachyderm_In_The_Room Because many people, as they have the right to do, don’t agree with you that He exists—or at least question it . We they feel the need to be heard, too. They don’t have to agree with me or anyone else who ask a question of God. If people only answered things that were possible or plausible and that they believed, we might as well just make it a technical Q&A site. If someone want to be heard, maybe they should ask a question. If anyone ask a question, then they should respect the asker and attempt to ask it in the context it was asked.

But they’re still good people, @Hypocrisy_Central. Oh, and I’m one of ‘em.
Did I say they wasn’t?

glacial's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Perhaps. Much depends on the spirit of the question asked, and the level of respect the asker shows to the Fluther community at large. Frankly, a lot of your questions deliberately provoke people who don’t believe what you do. So, guess what? We respond as provoked.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@glacial Frankly, a lot of your questions deliberately provoke people who don’t believe what you do.
If anyone feel provoked, is that not how they chose to see it? Did I ask it like “Who believes vegetarians are stupid?” or “If you hate Muscle Cars are you lame?” To ask it like that would be provoking.

Again Based off the criteria you just stated if you seen a question that asked, “what would you do if you could fly like Superman?” you would answer the question by stating Superman is not real, and the laws of physics do not allow a man to fly by cape or anything else, thus, the question on its merits is invalid. Is that how you would answer all such questions as that?

glacial's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I just said that I would answer some of them that way. Particularly if the earnestness of the author suggested that he actually believed that Superman were real.

”“If you hate Muscle Cars are you lame?” To ask it like that would be provoking.”
Do you honestly not recognize yourself in this style of questioning?

Actually, if you had written that question, I suspect it might take the form “Muscle Cars being lame, does your hatred of them justify your interests turning to the ripe, firm breasts or thighs of a young woman?

Berserker's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Difference between gods and dragons is that most times, if people ask about dragons, they ask it in a way that it’s completely clear that an actual belief in dragons is not supported. I love fictional shit. Zombies, vampires…surely you’ve seen one of my many gigantic posts on here about zombies? But I know they don’t exist, and I speak of them purely out of my love for them in entertainment and fiction.

God is assumed to be real by others, and not real by some others, but God’s place, or the idea thereof, is not of the same nature as mythical creatures, am I right? And when a question about God is asked, its nature usually pertains to the possibility of Him being real, unlike dragons, or zombies.

I assume that anyone who said they believed in dragons or zombies and asked a question about it, the same treatment that God questions get would follow these.

flip86's avatar

I don’t like god questions because I wholeheartedly don’t believe one exists and I feel sorry for those who do. Also, most god questions aren’t as simple as you make them seem. It’s usually a tactic used by people to proselytize at you.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@glacial ”If you hate Muscle Cars are you lame?” To ask it like that would be provoking.”
Do you honestly not recognize yourself in this style of questioning?
I don’t ask questions in those manner so I don’t see myself asking something I don’t ask.

Actually, if you had written that question, I suspect it might take the form “Muscle Cars being lame, does your hatred of them justify your interests turning to the ripe, firm breasts or thighs of a young woman?”
I think your powers of clairvoyance need new batteries, you need to reassess. As you pointed out, this is Fluther. I can ask much, and if there are subjects that stick out, many have their niche questions, sorry mine are not NSFW stuff on the kinky side, but that in not the only subject I ask, maybe just the ones certain people notice more.

@Symbeline God is assumed to be real by others, and not real by some others, but God’s place, or the idea thereof, is not of the same nature as mythical creatures, am I right? And when a question about God is asked, its nature usually pertains to the possibility of Him being real, unlike dragons, or zombies.
Excellent you pointed that out. People who would ask a question of zombies, vampires, warewolves, etc. reasonably know they do not exist, some I wonder, but in the question, they treat them as IF THEY EXIST. If they were not going to get in the spirit of the question and answer as if they existed, why answer, why not just go find a question you can answer in the context you believe? If you don’t believe in God, don’t answer question about God if the context is that he is real, stick to God questions that ask if he exist or if His existence was do to man’s creation, off myth, etc.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@flip86 I don’t like god questions because I wholeheartedly don’t believe one exists and I feel sorry for those who do.
So, any question which has a subject you do not believe exist, you will not answer? Or not answer in the context of the question?

Pandora's avatar

@flip86 I would agree with that but lets be real. If a non believer doesn’t want to be preached at then why do they bother to read and answer the question
.
If someone came on and asked about the joys of 3 way sex, because they love doing it than I won’t answer. It is not something I agree with. Now if they ask, would I ever have 3 way sex and why or why not, then I can see answering that question. The OP wants to know other reasons for not or for having a 3 way.
I’ve seen questions on here where a person who is looking for faithful support and they get a lot of almost personal attacks on their belief. And they are made to feel like they are stupid for believing in the boogy man.
If people who don’t believe get annoyed than they are free to pose their own question if they feel they need some answers.

flip86's avatar

@Pandora I see your point but there is a flip side, no pun intended, why ask people if they think god exists, if you don’t expect to get answers contradictory to your own beliefs?

DominicX's avatar

Depends on the question. A thought experiment involving a world where the Christian God exists I can certainly take part it. A question aimed at Christians asking about interpretation of their own beliefs I can’t say much about. But a question asking about whether something could be explained by God or whether something counts as evidence or something like that, anyone can answer. It’s one thing to ask a question like “when do you feel God’s presence the most?” and have all the answers be from snarky atheists talking about Santa Clause and all that, but it’s quite another to ask a question like “how can you have morality without God?” and be surprised that atheists are responding…

@flip86 I don’t think that’s the kind of question Pandora’s talking about. One asking for faithful support is not the same as asking if God exists; the former assumes the answerers already believe in God. It’s essentially one aimed at Christians. It would be like me asking a question about LGBT people and their image in society and have a bunch of answers from homophobes talking about how we’re “perverted” and crap like that. Some people are just better at reading questions.

flip86's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I really don’t understand you. What would the context be?

I don’t think a god exists. Is that within the context and the spirit of the question?

josie's avatar

God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy.

snowberry's avatar

Here, questions about God are most often thinly veiled attempts to make fun of those who do believe in God. I usually avoid them because it’s pointless. And many people here on fluther seem to think is appropriate to do so or even flame people who believe in God and make serious answers on the subject.

YARNLADY's avatar

When people ask about ghosts, dreams, God, or many other hypothetical beings, I usually give a similar “I don’t believe in them”. In a discussion forum such as this one, where answers are often called comments I suspect any question is expected to be discussed from all perspectives.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@DominicX A question aimed at Christians asking about interpretation of their own beliefs I can’t say much about.
Many who can’t because they don’t believe, answer but only to state they don’t believe and think the question is based on folly.

But a question asking about whether something could be explained by God or whether something counts as evidence or something like that, anyone can answer.
But they don’t. If someone was to ask “Do you think the crash of flight 555 was due to God?” someone could answer they did not think it was God but weather, mechanical failure etc, without having to labor on the fact by simply coming with “it could not be god because he is made up and don’t exist”. That IMO is outside the spirit and context of the question. The question has nothing to do with if a debate on if God exist, the context of the question was did God have anything to do with the crash. If one anwers that it was mechanical failure, weather, or even pilot error, they are simply stating there was something other than God that caused the crash, God’s existence notwithstanding.

It would be like me asking a question about LGBT people and their image in society and have a bunch of answers from homophobes talking about how we’re “perverted” and crap like that. Some people are just better at reading questions.
You can kinda see where I am coming from. If I seen a question about what is the best hygiene for gay male sex I would take a pass. I could not fathom it. To chime in and say, “They shouldn’t be doing it anyway so hygiene is the last thing they should be thinking of”. That would be disrespectful of the asker, if I could not answer in the context of the question, I would be doing better to leave it alone. As you pointed out about LGBT image of themselves in society if I could not place myself in their shoes to make an earnest answer, I take a pass, I simply would not point out they will get treated like crap because I don’t believe in gay sex, and gay sex is this and that by what I believe. That would do a disservice to the asker; they are not asking gay sex to be validated or not, but what the LGBT group feel their image or acceptance is in society.

Berserker's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central If they were not going to get in the spirit of the question and answer as if they existed, why answer, why not just go find a question you can answer in the context you believe?

As far as zombies and stuff goes, you might actually be surprised on how many people DO come in the thread just to say that zombies/vampires don’t exist. It’s almost ridiculous, it’s like, yeah okay, thanks for teaching me something I apparently didn’t know. Lol. Of course, this goes back to the original question here, whether it’s on God or zombies; why do people do it?

If you don’t believe in God, don’t answer question about God if the context is that he is real, stick to God questions that ask if he exist or if His existence was do to man’s creation, off myth, etc.

It’s what I do. But as I’ve said, I’ve rarely seen questions here that aren’t open to both fence sides, unless specified. I could say the same to you though; if you just want Christians and other believers to discuss things with you, go on a Christian website. There are plenty of them. I mean zombies aren’t like God. Essentially, when discussing zombies, you’re doing it on the standpoint of movies, video games, and books; established material. God is either real or He isn’t, but you must agree with me that discussing God isn’t along the same lines as discussing movies, right? In that case, I can’t really get into the spirit of it.

LornaLove's avatar

Nice question. Some people do want to ask a question about God, specific to God. They really could care less if anyone on Fluther believes in God or not.

jerv's avatar

The question of “Whose God?” is a valid one as there are so many different interpretations of the Bible that even Christians cannot agree on many details about God. Therefore, it’s actually impossible to answer any question about God without knowing which version of God is being discussed.

The only possible way to avoid such drift is to question only those people of your own sect/denomination, and even that is no guarantee. Otherwise, you will get at the very least replies along the lines of, “Which God?”, and debating who God really is.

tinyfaery's avatar

Because they fucking want to. No one owes you an explanation.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^^ Probably why Fluther has ran so many people off over the time I have been here. I don’t care for explanations, just that people at least feign interest in the question, no matter who asked it less this site become as those others this site says it is much better than.

syz's avatar

If I have no belief in God, how exactly would I “answer question about God in context” without referencing that lack of belief?

ninjacolin's avatar

Maybe if the question started as a hypoethetical the way the dragon question does.
Dragon question: “IF you had a pet dragon what would you feed him?”

So how about something like: “IF the orthodox roman catholic version god were real what color shoes would he wear?”

Coloma's avatar

I agree with @Rarebear ..there is nothing new under the sun, it’s all been done, chewed up, salivated over, mangled and exhausted.

I am not religious and my church is the church of nature/science and a sprinkling of mysticism and new agey thoughts…
Here, have an apple, Fig leaves optional.

harangutan's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Some people are so miserable in their own life they can’t wait to share it with others! That’s why.

ETpro's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central That question doesn’t make sense as a sentence. Perhaps questions that don’t make sense elicit answers that the questioner did not expect.

mattbrowne's avatar

I think we have to distinguish between questions about God and questions about religions such as Christianity. I’ve seen kind atheists answering questions about Christianity. In fact, many atheists know more about Christianity than some of the Christians.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@mattbrowne I’ve seen kind atheists answering questions about Christianity. In fact, many atheists know more about Christianity than some of the Christians. Knowing the Bible back and forth and understanding a relationship with the Father are two different things. If they understood it they would not want to be without it anymore they would want to be with out air.

ninjacolin's avatar

I understand “it” better than you do, @Hypocrisy_Central. It’s really not that special unless your perspective is skewed. Sorry.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@ninjacolin I understand “it” better than you do, @Hypocrisy_Central.
If you do yet are not embracing it you are worse off than a person that says “Yeah, I know what a brick of gold is worth”, then proceeds to chuck it over the side of the ship at mid ocean anyhow.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Because politics, religion and abortion can’t be discussed rationally, everyone gets emotional, which is why you don’t discuss in business and other situations.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central A lot of people here do know the facts, but they miss the heart of the belief that affects everything you do, say, how you act, etc…some things go beyond mere facts. I’m with you on this one.

DominicX's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central One could say the same thing about any religion. If you truly understood Islam, you would never want to be without it. If you truly understood Buddhism, you would never want to be without it. There is a difference between understanding something and accepting it.

ninjacolin's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central said: “If you do yet are not embracing it you are worse off than a person that says “Yeah, I know what a brick of gold is worth”, then proceeds to chuck it over the side of the ship at mid ocean anyhow.”

That depends on whether the boat has a slow leak or not and more importantly, whether you’re aware of it.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@DominicX One could say the same thing about any religion. If you truly understood Islam, you would never want to be without it. If you truly understood Buddhism, you would never want to be without it. There is a difference between understanding something and accepting it.
That is why I don’t follow religion, which is created by man and used by Satan to bamboozle the unknowledgeable. Right, acceptance is not understanding. Many accepted religion and did not understand it, so many wolves in churches, congregations, etc used the Bible to promote slavery, eradication of indigenous people, holy wars, fleecing those seeking God, hatred of homosexuals, and many more abominations. Off investigations we know for sure Buddha did no miracles, Mohammed did no miracles, Confucius, or any of the others did not either. Most have known graves of which their bones are still in them. There might not be an acceptable record of the miracles of Christ, but you can’t find any proof, like the history books or encyclopedia that proves he didn’t do what was said as with the others.

@ninjacolin That depends on whether the boat has a slow leak or not and more importantly, whether you’re aware of it.
If you know what I know, (as you say) and not know if the boat is leaking, sinking, or almost sunk; you really don’t know and understand the way I do. Certainly not to toss over something of great value when you know the value and there is no reason to do so.

ninjacolin's avatar

Until you know the danger it poses to you, you will continue to think it has great value. As I said, your golden perspective is your enemy.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

When you do not know the value of what you have, you may never know how you short changed yourself giving it away for beans, and if you know the value but believe the beans are more you can’t claim to have been swindled when you end up broke.

ninjacolin's avatar

Yes, I think you understand the risk, @Hypocrisy_Central.
I urge you to heed the warnings.

Berserker's avatar

beware the ides of August, homies!

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@ninjacolin Yes, I think you understand the risk, @Hypocrisy_Central.
I urge you to heed the warnings.
I did, I seen the bridge was out and took another road. You claim to know that rode as well as I do so why are you still on it knowing the bridge is out?

ninjacolin's avatar

Well, your choice of direction is certainly.. creative.. but.. well.. oh man.. I had a few spare life buoys around and this brand new shiny map and even some gas for the trip and… yea, just.. well.. have you ever used a life buoy before? I could show you how they work and stuff.. :)

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^^ I had a few spare life buoys around and this brand new shiny map and even some gas for the trip and… yea, just.. well.. have you ever used a life buoy before? I could show you how they work and stuff.. :)
IF I were on a sinking ship, I might need one, but since I am on a ship that can never be sunk, I am cool, you will need it for yourself ;-P

ninjacolin's avatar

Okay, well as long as you understand. I can’t really profit from your failures in these matters but I might be able to profit from your success in these matters. Always open to having you join the winning team! ;)

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^^ Hey, think what you want, how you want, I did my part, your soul is no longer on my anymore. you might want to buy fire insurance I can’t say anymore, just remember you were told, but you tossed away the true priceless gift anyhow…..so…..good luck, Godspeed to you.

(last quip is yours so you can feel the ship is not sinking)

ETpro's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I can see how it would feel really great to be that smug.

Berserker's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central _^^ Hey, think what you want, how you want, I did my part, your soul is no longer on my anymore. _

I apologize in advance, but saying that the fate of someone’s soul has anything to do with you is extremely arrogant, and not to mention rather frightening. Most especially when you believe in God, and as I understand it, only God has a say in what happens to people’s souls. You don’t.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

^IMHO I don’t think that is exactly what was meant.

I have seen over and over again @Hypocrisy_Central betrated on questions.  I mean it’s like you guys are trying to catch him/her? on (lol I’m not even sure what sex I’m defending here I haven’t paid attention because it really doesn’t matter to me) his/her faults so you can maybe point fingers and say “see you aren’t Christian enough!” or something similar.

This is basically the point that is made a lot here on fluther by fellow Christians and believers and faith followers about how Christianity and faith and the people who believe is largely and openly scrutinized.

As a comparison, like if anyone talks about gay people then you better watch your mouth or if they call an overweight person repulsive then that’s totally wrong, and you are told so or the comment flagged or you are probably not harshly but verbally warned or reprimanded enough to make the persons opinion feel like it needs defending, <that happens on Fluther.

The other day on a thread also here on Fluther my faith was called “repulsive”, and yet no one said a thing.  But if I was gay it would be a “hate” crime.

What are we not willing to tolerate?

We don’t like bullying, and if I asked the question “do you like bullies”?   Probably 99.9% of the answers would be an easy no and most would proudly wonder how could I even ask such a thing?

But yet people continue to bully people…somethings messed up about our morals and values, no?  
Interestingly enough, if I were to bully someone that would be wrong, but honestly, I’m sorry jellies you do sometimes bully people of faith.

And I’m not pointing fingers, I’m just saying it happens.  And although @Hypocrisy_Central actually does a very good job (kudos to you!) with responding to the discourse and many times lack thereof, some people are not good at that.  But WE are allowing this.

Is this a community of acceptance and true equality, or is this the same type of community we live in outside of the internet where real equality is just a figment of our imagination.

Questions about faith and religion on the internet are often in the “social” section, questions about weight or a persons looks may also be in the social section, so honestly maybe it is all flawed.

If gay people can have pride and proudly display their sexuality, then let’s have some true equality here, let’s allow the Christians and faith believers to preach about Christ bearing the burden of the cross for our sins..because that is my take on what this means, “I did my part, your soul is no longer on my anymore.” because I’m pretty sure we all know that only God has that kind of authoritae!

On another note, I’d like, to actually, try to answer the question.  If a question is asking “what does veal taste like?”  Myself who is a vegan is probably not going to respond with, “I’m not sure.  The only way to find out is to kill a baby calf and cook it up for dinner…anyone hungry?”  That is not my spirit.  Why would I promote the death of a baby calf at that when I can’t even stomach meat.  So in the spirit of the context of the question I must either be a trolling, or I must be answering it sarcastically or with true intentions, and if the religion question is in social, which I have found they usually are, these questions aren’t asked to really have a spirited conversation, which usually ends up in debate.

It’s something that had happened to me for along time, because I am so faithful, it is not hard for me to be in the spirit regardless of the fact that I do not really like to debate, I usually end  up getting myself caught up in it anyway, and I see something having to do with Christ and I answer it without looking at whether or not the question is posted in “general” or “social”, I can admit that I get too caught up.

And unfortunately maybe there are some topics that should be allowed to be less opinionated and therefore not “social”, honestly I don’t know the answer.

But to me, segregating people into groups liberals, Christians, atheists, naturalists, LGBT, seems no more equally appropriate than simply stating you are a racist.

My PC must need a virus check…lol, what in the world! I don’t know what happened but something happened. :/

ninjacolin's avatar

@KaY_Jelly there is no equality of ideas available anywhere where there is serious debate. There is only those statements which check out as being valid and those arguments which check out as being sound and the rest are IMPORTANT (again, in the context of serious debate) to mark as invalid and unsound respectively. Otherwise, no progress can be made.

If you want to subscribe to invalid/unsound ideas, find a board where people won’t point it out for you. Around here, we’re pretty helpful in that regard. What you will observe over your time here is that as a community we tend to help each other stay honest. You don’t get kicked out for not making sense, you just get notified/told that you aren’t making sense.. when someone is keen enough to notice it.

It’s a good thing. We all improve together.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “Hey, think what you want, how you want, I did my part, your soul is no longer on me anymore.”

As a fellow Christian, I’m confused as to what you’re trying to accomplish here. Please remember who you are purporting to represent and act accordingly. Sometimes I’ll even pray for God’s guidance when answering Q’s like this so I can word it appropriately so I don’t actually turn people OFF of God. Jesus came for the sinners, not the saved. Peace.

Berserker's avatar

@KaY_Jelly You seem to assume that we don’t let people have their faiths or that we don’t want Christians on here. (or other believers) Is that what I’m doing to @Hypocrisy_Central? I think not. In fact, I get along with him (he’s a him) quite fine. Most of his questions are debates though, and so, I debate with him. Don’t think he gets special treatment from me. I act the same with him as I do with anyone I debate with. And @Hypocrisy_Central is awesome, because even though he and I don’t agree on a lot of things, if I dare to disagree with him, he will still talk to me and be my friend. I’ve actually lost some jelly friends on here because I disagreed with them like, once. (both atheists) But if I don’t agree or like something he says, I will say so. What’s the problem?

If I misunderstood what he says, okay fine, that happens. @Hypocrisy_Central has a weird English, sometimes I have to reread what he writes to make sure I get it; but whether or not I do, I’m not berating him or putting him down. but he still doesn’t own my soul lol He asks to get in the spirit of the question, so I did in my last answer; only God has a say in what goes on with people’s souls. He doesn’t. If I misunderstood what he said, well fucking sue me lol.

And don’t let it cross your mind for a second that an atheist here won’t be questioned or debated against if someone doesn’t agree with something they say. Hell I’ve done it, and it’s been done to me.

I also get along quite fine with @KNOWITALL above me here. She’s a Christian. Another user on here is Jewish, and everybody loves him. But dude. Look at any debate on here, it always becomes heated, no matter the subject. Fluther isn’t out to take the piss out of believers. It has to be said, HC does get a lot of shit from people, maybe it’s his style or his claims…but it would fucking suck if he left Fluther.

I love zombies. Many people here love zombies. However, the other half of Fluther is extremely strict and disapproving of anything zombie. So what, should I whip out the the victim card and demand respect? I just accept it, yo. I mean, not everyone is gonna like what I say or do. They are allowed to say so. As long as my freedom is not being taken away, this is not discrimination or lack of acceptance.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Symbeline Just another proof that all Christians can’t be lumped together, much like any other section of society. My friends all know I love God, it’s some of His followers I can’t stand.

I think @Hypocrisy_Central is trying to do a good thing. Sometimes the questions and antagonism that I perceive here is from people saying all kinds of negativity about religion or Christianity or God or Jesus or the Church, etc….

You can worship trees, birds, or whatever you want and I promise never to ridicule your belief system that you hold sacred. I wish other jellies returned that sentiment, but some do not, and it isn’t debate to demean another person or their beliefs, only to question them.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Symbeline I apologize in advance, but saying that the fate of someone’s soul has anything to do with you is extremely arrogant, and not to mention rather frightening.

EZEKIEL 3:18–19
18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

I could gloat why I am handing out that big steaming piece of “humble pie”, but my God has made me longsuffering. Your soul or anyone else’s has NO DANGER FROM ME. I CANNOT JUDGE YOU apart from the Book. My job is to tell you that the bridge is out, if you keep going and fall down a canyon, I did my part to warn you and you headed it not. I am free from the destruction of your soul being on me. If I know the bridge is out but don’t tell you and you fall into a canyon, it is on me. To simplify; I warned you as I was suppose to, if you still reject it, then God is not going to hold your lost soul on me as if I did not tell you. As you see, I CANNOT SAVE OR DESTROY your soul; only God can do that, and I am not God and don’t mind you saying so.

@KNOWITALL As a fellow Christian, I’m confused as to what you’re trying to accomplish here.
What the scripture just said; to warn the lost less they die in their iniquity. If they reject it, they reject it. God will take it up with them in the Lord’s Day.

Berserker's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I’m not sure I remember you trying to warn me about salvation or the lack thereof, that is, unless you meant this generally. But that clears that up. :p

KaY_Jelly's avatar

Ok so I figured @Hypocrisy_Central was a him but I have never gotten to asking people about their genders. It actually doesn’t matter to me anyways. If you read my story on my page under my avatar you may know exactly who I am. I am not a newbie. Just to clarify.

Anyway, just to also clarify I was not pointing fingers at certain people so whats up with the confessionals? :-\

It’s not about being a victim or demanding respect. It’s about equality and empathy. It shouldn’t be about who is right, it should be about peoples right’s.

You have the right to believe in zombies, unless this is a debate which it hardly is, everyone’s opinion counts. It just doesn’t seem fair to throw thousands of personalities together and say “debate now about the taste of wine…GO!”

I was just stating my opinion and that is why I believe we are here, I honestly don’t see why anyone especially an anonymous person has to keep my opinions honest.

Berserker's avatar

Anyway, just to also clarify I was not pointing fingers at certain people so whats up with the confessionals? :-\

Yeah, I love that. Not pointing fingers, but putting those arrow things ^^ at my post, then start talking about how that’s not what HC meant; based on my post.

It’s not about being a victim or demanding respect. It’s about equality and empathy. It shouldn’t be about who is right, it should be about peoples right’s.

Deep, dude. But like I’ve stated, we do not take anyone’s rights away here, at all. I’d love to see one instance where this happened?

I was just stating my opinion and that is why I believe we are here, I honestly don’t see why anyone especially an anonymous person has to keep my opinions honest.

I’m stating my opinion, too. I said it was arrogant of someone to think they have something to say on the fate of my soul. (which is what I thought he meant) Because that’s what I thought. What’s the problem, exactly? I’m not taking anyone’s rights away.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

That is the only part the arrows were meant for.  That is why I said “IMHO I don’t think that is exactly what was meant.”  *END OF PARAGRAPH.*

I don’t really see how it’s confusing.  I even said I wasn’t pointing fingers!

Moving on…

“It’s not about being a victim or demanding respect. It’s about equality and empathy. It shouldn’t be about who is right, it should be about peoples right’s.”

“Deep, dude. But like I’ve stated, we do not take anyone’s rights away here, at all. I’d love to see one instance where this happened?”

Again, this is a total gross misrepresentation of what I have said.  I did not say anything in my statement about fellow jellies taking away the rights of other jellies. :/

What I said was a statement, it was not meant to be read any further into.  My point is that we DO have rights here and we should be able to express our opinions within respectable limits and not be told that our opinion is “repulsive”, or even the undertones that some jellies may or may not realize that can be hurtful by saying that just because we believe in God, so we therefore get all the references to unicorns or santa claus or fsm, its disrespectful and below the belt, and I say that because even in a proper debate that is an attack on something that we all know can not be proved.

Science is not about proving something right or wrong, if that were true we wouldn’t need science, so the “idea” of  referencing unicorns or santa claus or fsm to Christians is non conducive and therefore probably not rational.

But honestly, I mean come on, this is a community and not all communities are perfect.  Just like families.  The height of ignorance would be to believe that this community is a perfect community.  Don’t get me wrong, I lurve this place that is why I have been here over and over again.

But don’t kid yourself, HC takes a lot of flak and its not just because he is a Christian.  I can recall without naming names someone saying that *“If any new user came around here asking questions in such a way as@Hypocrisy_Central
, we would probably call them a troll and ban them.”* And your statement ”You don’t get kicked out for not making sense”.
 
Next..

“I’m stating my opinion, too. I said it was arrogant of someone to think they have something to say on the fate of my soul. (which is what I thought he meant) Because that’s what I thought. What’s the problem, exactly? I’m not taking anyone’s rights away.”

Yet again another misunderstanding.  You have the right to your opinion, I did say that we are here to state our opinions.

Here is my opinion, I should of also added to my statement that I think we should be here to have fun, I’m sorry I am bipolar and I for one can contest that being egged on for ones personality is not fun.

ninjacolin's avatar

FYI: Fluther folk always use arrows wrong. ^ means, the last post. ^^ means 2 posts up. ^^^ means 3 posts up… etc.. so: ^^^^^^^^^ points to my last post, 9 up. Sometimes people want to point MANY arrows at the last post as an emphatic gesture but that’s just semantically confusing.

Anywho.. The real arrogance in statements like: “I’m here to warn you about living god’s way” is that you have no idea whether the God you worship is real. You believe it, sure. But believing something is real is less than half the battle to it actually being true.

The real question is as Pontius Pilate so eloquently dumbfounded Jesus: “What is truth?”
Jesus had no answer because it is a fuck of a tough question to answer.

The point is, @Hypocrisy_Central, only I know the truth in these matters and you had better listen to me or else you will fall into (in your case) the trap of the Bible.. a path to nowhere and one of the biggest mistakes anyone on earth ever makes. It’s such a classic trap, too, and I see you guys making that mistake over and over thinking you’re soooo smart.

BTW, this is exactly why people can’t stay on topic, because they know that someone out there, like yourself HC, are ignorantly disobeying my greater wisdom and doing things like.. what you do. Ain’t no body got time for that.


metaphor aside: @Hypocrisy_Central what you believe is true is not peer reviewed accuracy that Science offers. It is a time honored blend of conjecture, superstition, and make believe cleverly construed into statements that seem true but which lack any useful essence of demonstrability.

Believing such things is understandable because the human mind is prone to gullibility and it develops along with whatever true or false statements it happens to have to work with over time. But what’s even MORE understandable than that is the fact that when you happen to believe something questionable, that you don’t go around telling people you know it’s a fact even though it cannot possibly be demonstrated without writing off those who can’t observe it as being supernaturally restrained from observing it.

Can you imagine if Scientists went around touting their findings as truth regardless of what peer review had to say when they tried to replicate their findings? Things would be a mess! Fortunately, your topic of rewards after death doesn’t affect anyone as immediately as disease control decisions do.

But it’s clearly arrogant to go around saying: “Listen, I can’t prove it to you but there is a golden case of cookies waiting for you after death IF you pledge allegiance to the purple unicorn of our forefathers! IF YOU DON’T DO IT.. you will have drink crab juice for eternity!”

Really? Golden cases of cookies and purple unicorns from mythology? Sorry, I’m just not that superstitious.

glacial's avatar

@ninjacolin Dammit, I almost didn’t keep reading because you spelled “anyhoo” as “anywho” and that drives me right around the bend, but I’m glad I did. That was well worth it.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@ninjacolin you really don’t want to debate with me about christianity and atheism and which one is the more rational belief, do you?

Did you not read anything I said?  Then us Christians will wait here while you atheists, naturalists, unbelievers and sceptics, etc. prove that case rationally for you’re side! lol.

In fact I can tell you that Michio Kaku will tell you his idea on God is undecided, while Stephen Hawkings opinion is that God does not exist, for me Dr. William Lane Craig makes the most compelling rational argument for theism lut of all of them.

So there you have 3 different opinions from 3 highly educated people who know what they are talking about and yet we still have no answer!
 
If you still think we can debate Christianity here on an open forum without opening and closing arguments, and rebuttals and time limits, then rationally speaking, how would that work?

I’d honestly like to know.

I’m sorry but IMHO I have to say that the entire idea of having any sort of real rational debate on an open internet forum seems like illusory to me.

ninjacolin's avatar

I didn’t say “formal” debate.. I only said “serious” debate. If you wanted to have a formal debate with me, you’re welcome to try but I may not know all the rules and judging by my spelling and grammar mistakes I doubt I’ll get full marks as an academic… Still though, I would smush you and Lane Craig into a flaming heap of agnostic pride, easy. Might even get you over to full blown atheist if time allows. ;) Just say where and when, @KaY_Jelly, then kiss your god goodbye!

Paradox25's avatar

I’m a nonreligious theist who tends to stray from debating the existence of god, because I just see no way to argue for Her existence. I see a great deal of religious intolerence from many such as Craig or Ross, who seem to be more interested in validating their religion rather than actually debating the existence of an intelligent designer in general.

A great deal of religions from around the world, including Christianity, are much more than a simple way to obtain spirituality. I’ll use Christianity here as an example. Let’s face it, Christianity is a very powerful ecopoliticalcultural tool, irrespective of the mysticism associated with it. People, even including intelligent scientists and scholars, who tend to go out of their way to prove the validity of their religion usually already have economic, political and cultural motivations, and their motivations tend to be traditionalist and patriarchal in nature.

I notice that when many Christians go out of their way to argue about the ‘truth’ of Jesus or their Bible, it’s pretty clear there’s much more than the religion at stake, but an entire way of thinking and living. As a nonreligious theist I actually hold Dawkins in higher regards than a Craig or a Ross. Craig’s and Ross’ arguments for the existence of Her are rather weak in my opinion, and I tend to steer clear of folks like that and stick to the likes of Amit Goswami, Ernst Senkowski, Dr Van Pim Lommel, Dr. Jan W. Vandersande, Dr. Robert Crookall and many others.

I’ll debate theists and nontheists about the validity of the evidence for an afterlife, the power of mind and some other phenomena considered anomalous. I also won’t hesitate to debate theists on the validity of their religion as well, especially when these religious beliefs conflict with the empirical data for an afterlife, or when these people try to dismantle other religious beliefs because they think that their religion is superior. Ironically I’ve found that my greatest opposition does not come from the stereotypical atheist or reductionist many times, but from other theists.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@ninjacolin The true point is somewhere in the future one of us will be right; if it is you, neither of us will ever know you were right. If I am right you WILL have a very interesting conversation on what you believe right now. Apparently at this moment you are willing to take that chance; better hope you are right or you better have fire insurance.

DominicX's avatar

^In other words, Pascal’s wager…that is what it ultimately boils down to, isn’t it?

At least, almost any time I get into a debate with a Christian, they ultimately boil down their arguments to Pascal’s wager.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ Only if it is 50/50, I feel the odds are 100% the way I am leaning on, even if I am not correct in the end, I will lose nothing. However, if I bet the other way,—as many are doing, I would truly lose everything—.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@ninjacolin Might even get you over to full blown atheist if time allows. ;) Just say where and when, @KaY_Jelly, then kiss your god goodbye!

I have a first hand experience at what having no God, in my life does and what having evil in my life does. I used to be an atheist, among other things I was deeply into the occult, witchcraft and so on. I decided that it was time to quit and that I was too deeply involved when a bunch of us were going to desecrate a grave.

Strangely, around this time was when I was diagnosed with bipolar. My life has not been the greatest. Having God in my life has actually made my life less chaotic, other than the fact that I deal with bipolar regularly, but even following God has helped me deal with that.

I was on a suicide mission for a long time after my trip into the ”dark side”. And I was saved twice. Once by my husband, who was a Paramedic and came home for lunch when he wasn’t supposed to and found me after I had ate an entire couple of months worth of liquid anti psychotics that I had researched and knew could pretty much kill me. After I got home I decided to go for a ride and redo the suicide in a park where no one would find me. I took my bible cranked the window and lit a cigarette. I put the bible down and immediately a gust of wind blew in and blew the pages to pages that I decided to read. My eyes zoomed in on a script which I will never forget:

Hosea 12:6

6 So you, by the help of your God, return;
Observe mercy and justice,
And wait on your God continually.

So I’m sorry but you won’t be changing my direction, not even if it turns out that God is not true and atheism is true. Because for me, believing in God, no matter how silly it seems to you, I am not here to change views or have my view changed my choice has actually made my life better, and no matter what you say, it still is the more rational point of view for me.

I believe we are all here for a reason and people are put into our lives for a greater purpose.

Next,

@Paradox25

I see a great deal of religious intolerence from many such as Craig or Ross, who seem to be more interested in validating their religion rather than actually debating the existence of an intelligent designer in general.

IMHO, I believe you are wrong about that. If you read through this article towards the end Dr. Craig states:

You can have a whole-souled trust in God as a loving Heavenly Father even as you have the razor-sharp mind of a top philosopher or scientist. As for my comment about intellectual engagement making a person more well-rounded and interesting, that seems to me indisputable. The contrast here is not between Christian and non-Christian but between those who use their minds and those who do not. Sadly, the latter group far too often includes Christians (if I thought that being a Christian automatically makes one deeper and more interesting, then why I was giving the sermon?). Non-Christians likewise who are thinking deeply about these questions will be more interesting and well-rounded than non-Christians who do not. I’m glad that your friend has thought about these questions and hope he will continue to do so.

“Craig’s and Ross’ arguments for the existence of Her are rather weak in my opinion” Seriously? One argument Dr. Craig makes and is a very strong and compelling argument:

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.
2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.
3. Therefore, God exists.

@DominicX if “almost anytime you debate with a Christian, they ulimatley boil down their arguments to Pascals wager.”

IMO, I have beg to differ. To me it seems if that is happening then you are not really having a “logical” debate, or it is probably what I call, the “one sided debate”. Usually a debate is structured and both opponents should probably know how to construct logical arguments and even theists like Dr.Craig don’t usually appeal to Pascal’s Wager.

That is why I say it is a one sided debate because if one person knows that and the opponent does not, then it is a one sided debate. It’s like your chess opponent has no skill in chess but is a master skilled checker player. not. fair. really. :/

ninjacolin's avatar

That isn’t what it boils down to at all. Sorry, @Hypocrisy_Central, but that really isn’t the “true point” at all for you. It almost certainly never is.

@Hypocrisy_Central, you’re not afraid of hellfire. None of you hardcore fundamentalist christians are. You wholeheartedly believe hellfire is as much of a risk for yourself as I do for myself: Unlikely. You’re not worried about hellfire because you really, REALLY believe God exists and that you have done everything you can to deserve the rewards he offers. Yes, you’re programmed to remember and to make claims that ‘only god knows who will be saved!’ but you don’t believe it for a second that there’s any chance YOU of all people will be burning forever in hell. You think you’ve got it all down. You believe you are saved. You’re like a high ranking officer playing cards with a judge, laughing about the next batch of criminals you’re going to be rounding up together to put in the slammer. Your own personal risk of prison and punishment just aren’t exactly on your mind.

And sure, a few Sunday sermons might talk about the risk of hellfire and they might scare you into a silly little bit of introspection, but those fears don’t keep you up at night and they certainly don’t get you out of bed in the morning nor do they find you trembling, plaguing your thoughts while you make coffee and drive to work.

You aren’t worried about hell. And yet you believe.

Well, guess what? I don’t worry about hell. And yet I disbelieve.

Pascals wager isn’t what convinces you and you can’t possibly expect it to be very moving for me either. I’m as confident as you are that hell just isn’t a likely threat for me. Perhaps you could say I’m even more confident than you since I don’t even accept the notion that it might be real place.

Fear simply doesn’t motivate belief. Observation does. That’s why Jesus performed miracles: To convince people with things they could observe for themselves. That’s why Jesus offered his hand to Thomas, so that he could observe and be convinced. That’s why God made roses grow out of staff, and water from a rock and mana from heaven and dudes in whale bellies: PROOF. EVIDENCE. OBSERVATION. These things have real conversion power on the human mind. Fear is just an emotion. Sometimes you can be scared of your own shadow but once you realize it’s your shadow the fear disappates. It doesn’t mean you should worship your shadow because it can make you fearful. Hellfire sure sounds scary but so does the boogey man. I’m not going to start worshiping either of the alleged mystic creatures behind them, sorry.

@Hypocrisy_Central without sufficient proof and evidence, god CANNOT expect you to believe anything about him. Why? Because our brains are limited to believing based on experience. And a god who allegedly fashioned us into existence would tend to know that about us. The ONLY reason you feel there might be a risk of hell at all is because you happen to be convinced (by poor evidence) that the God of hellfire exists in the first place. Also, because you haven’t thought it through: Would you reject your child for not knowing his way out of maze with traps and an unknown time limit? Of course not. That would be stupid and unfair. And if you wouldn’t do it, what makes you think your God would?

@Hypocrisy_Central, God isn’t going to punish me or you for his own failure to demonstrate his presence to such sincere seekers as you and I. I’m sure you would agree, it would be very unlike your God to punish people for not knowing better than was possible for them to know given the evidence in front of them.

Pascals wager fails to account for the irrefutable innocence that comes with sincere ignorance.

ninjacolin's avatar

So I’m sorry but you won’t be changing my direction, not even if it turns out that God is not true and atheism is true. Because for me, believing in God, no matter how silly it seems to you, I am not here to change views or have my view changed my choice has actually made my life better, and no matter what you say, it still is the more rational point of view for me.

@KaY_Jelly no worries, I wasn’t serious. I thought you would’ve had a chuckle at that. Bravado for dramatic effect! I thought it was over the top enough to be obvious.

Anyway, that’s fine. I know of many such stories where people’s lives are changed for the better in what I would call: “by chance by the words of the Bible.” In fact, we have something in common there. My own life was mortally spared entirely by the faith of other people who were following what they still believe was the word of god and at the same time people whom you and @Hypocrisy_Central would be quick to surmise were anything but “true Christians.” And yet my life was spared by their hardcore bible fearing faith-lead actions.

If it’s okay for me to share my views a bit here, just for the sake of conversation: I don’t have reason to consider this brand of miracle as being limited to the Bible and it’s message. Many have stumbled upon unique solutions that compliment their lives so dramatically in the words of simple songs, profound books, and even late night infomercials. Marriages saved, lives saved, schools saved, all kinds of people and things saved or vastly improved by various serendipitous occurrences.

And I’m happy that you found something that really works for you. It may not work as well for someone else so I would encourage you to explore it deeper for yourself. However, I do attribute it to serendipity. For example, (again, this is just to give you insight into my world view) it would seem to me that you live your life not by Christian standards so much as by the phenomenon magic of Serendipity, which lead you to your current faith and which you now adhere to in devotion to its Serendipitous conception. To know that you come from a Wiccan background especially prejudices me to this view. You seem to have an openness in your heart for magical intuition between the whole of the universe and yourself. You look for signs. You respond to signs. It’s okay by me, really. Maybe not in all cases, but in many. I really like how your story turned out so far, as an example. (And please don’t think I’m putting you in a box here, I’m just speaking from my current perspective which will likely change and change again as we grow to know eachother more.)

I like you as you are and I don’t really believe a debate will necessarily change your viewpoint or mine. It would most likely just be a bit of fun. However, we shoudl never forget how much power we have to impress on one another. I watched that debate you posted today between Matt Dillahunty and Father.. hmm.. didn’t catch his name. And afterwards I watched a fictional tv show where a lady said: “I like the thunder, it makes me think of god but not in a bad way.” And then I sat on my porch and I listend and watched one of the loudest thunderstorms that I’ve heard in a very very long time and I reflected on all these things squished together… the effect was intense and beautiful. I felt a great sense of empathy for believers in that moment. I would describe it as an inspired, creative moment where I could imagine that thing so vaguely described as God.

So.. anyway, thank you for your thoughts and discussion points today, Kay. I very much appreciated it.

ETpro's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Pascal’s wager is a fool’s bet. You are placing your money on one out of 3,000 or more possibilities, or the very distinct possibility that none of the 3,000 are real. Man obviously invented at least 2,999 or the 3,000. Maybe he invented them all. Then again, maybe there is a real one out there, but all 3,000 stabs by mankind are off base. Your odds of winning by taking up Pascal’s wager are nowhere close to 50/50. They are obviously much closer to the odds of winning the Big Game Lottery.

@KaY_Jelly, you seem to be admitting that you’ve spent your entire life without ever understanding what skepticism is about. Before Christianity it was witchcraft and voodoo. Well, it can be reason. That’s a valid alternative. Just not if you are a committed Christian, Muslim, Hindu…

KaY_Jelly's avatar

:) @ninjacolin I like your comment. I feel like finally, after I have been having a very bad day at that, and I have been pleading to God, reading your post confirms that he has been listening to me, and you understand me which makes my life seem that little bit more worthwhile.

Arguing for God is not easy, and the easy way out for me I think would be to say the opposite of what I believe. I know you may not believe in His existence but I do believe that He is in your life, and maybe you don’t look for the signs but as you say I “look for signs”.

I understand what you are saying and I would have to slightly agree, but at the same time maybe it’s strange to say that I do have great intuition.

And so that leads me into having to bring my faith and intuition into this discussion because to me it seems fitting that just before you heard one of the “loudest thunderstorms you have heard in a long time” you hear a comment like “I like the thunder, it makes me think of god but not in a bad way.” it is almost like God could be giving you a sign, but that maybe you were not paying attention ;) so then I often question that maybe there is a bigger reason or meaning behind everything.

Also I just want to make very clear, that I was not into Witchcraft for very long. Most of my dealings with the occult were in Satanism with only a few dealings in witchcraft.

Thank you for giving me Gods grace and appreciation I also appreciate your comments and you too @ninjacolin and that was a sweet thing of you to say.

Yesterday when I took my dogs out for a walk, there was an older man on a scooter.. I have 2 big dogs that usually try to take up the sidewalk so this man was trying to move over enough to let us by and I was trying to pull the dog’s onto the grass so the man could get by safely. Before you know it the man is half on the grass almost falling off his scooter and my dogs are looking at him dumbfounded. I ask him if he is OK and he says “uh oh, I went off the track!” It honestly was very cute. So I walked over to help him with his scooter and the dogs started licking him. And we get his scooter back on “the track” and says “you have very nice dogs, thank you for making my day.” :)

I don’t know why but that story reminds me of this comment right now.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

Btw, also now that I’ve had a few hours of sleep I’d like to offer an explaination for the idea as to why I may have more intuition than maybe someone else, and why I see things more clearly.  I’d like to recommend that maybe my “intuition” is similar to the story of Lot’s wife turning into salt.

What many now believe is that she did not actually turn into salt, but that the story is one based on etiology.  Which is to say that they saw “something” and had no other explanation so they attributed what they saw to an etiological story that is meant to explain the existence of a particular landmark and so maybe that is like what I am offering, like an etiology on a spiritual level.

So then I must add, if we are all made in God’s image and since He is omniscient I could be actually be getting a minute piece of God’s intuition or omniscience, which in turn is making me more prone to come up with supernatural etiological answers, but since God is omnipresent and not a mortal human the answer will continue to elude being proved so until that happens we can either continue to be open minded or closed minded and rational about it or not.

“This is reality in a universe without God: there is no hope; there is no purpose. It reminds me of T.S. Eliot’s haunting lines:

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

What is true of mankind as a whole is true of each of us individually: we are here to no purpose. If there is no God, then our life is not fundamentally different from that of a dog.”

~ William Lane Craig

glacial's avatar

@KaY_Jelly The fact that you would tell me that my life is not fundamentally different from that of a dog (thanks so much for that) tells me that you neither “have more intuition” nor “see things more clearly” than others. Instead, it tells me that you cannot appreciate or even imagine what goes on in the hearts or minds of people who have beliefs that are different from your own.

Do please try to have a little more respect for people who do not believe the same things you do. You don’t have to respect what I believe (or don’t believe), but you should be able to respect me as a person. That quote is fundamentally offensive.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central When I first got here, I had a few religious crisis in regards to my ‘christianity’ here on fluther. I was attacked so much that it made me talk about God MORE than before. I got so many PM’s thanking me for speaking up, that I continued feeling a responsibility to stand up for my religion. Then I realized, with the help of the jellies, that there are a lot of forums for that and people actually wanting to know so now I acknowledge my religion, but I’m not e-witnessing person-to-person, they all know where to find me if they have particular questions. Peace.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@glacial you are completely misunderstanding the context of quote!  But thank you for helping me to see that it can be confusing, so the only thing I can do is try to explain it better, I hope this helps.

First of all, the quote is from Dr. William Lane Craig, not from me.

Maybe in different terms the context of it may be what you think it is, but Dr. Craig does plenty of debates where if I remember correctly he uses this in his argument, like his explanation of the argument here.

But perhaps you may not want to read the article in it’s entirety so perhaps I could point you in the direction of doing a google search of the context of the quote for you and refer you to the page from the book that was written by Dr. Craig so maybe you can read a smaller version of what he is talking about.

I hope that will help you understand that I personally am trying not to offend anyone and that the context of the quote is not about that.

I must admit that I do have faults, but it seems silly, irrational and very conduct unbecoming at all for me to thank a jelly for their graciousness and then not much longer after that, go right ahead with an act to berate people based on faith and/or choice or lack thereof.

Please go here.

Paradox25's avatar

@KaY_Jelly I remember one of your past posts where you’ve ditched other religions while openly claiming why Christianity is more accurate, sensible or viable. Not all theists feel that way, and when examined under closer scrutiny mainstream Christianity philosophically doesn’t even make sense to me. I’ve read the Bible as a former Christian, and it’s extremely obvious that this religion has borrowed many of its ideas from older pagan beliefs. I’ve started to read the Vedas, the Hindu ‘bible’ so to speak, and I’m rather amazed that a book much older than the Bible seems to be more accurate scientifically. The earth rotates around the sun according to the Vedas.

I’m not a religion basher or hater, and I feel there’s some type of intelligent creative force myself. I just wish more Christians would see why so many people look down upon oppressive religious beliefs, especially when by default their beliefs put down the beliefs of others. Many creationist sites may look intimidating, and even complicated to the average person, but when examined further can be torn apart rather easily. The majority of these creationists sites cherry pick their ideology into an ‘objective’ truth by only posting unknowns in well established theories, and by leaving out certain data. They then assume that these unknowns equal their religion being the one true one. I’ve also noticed that the authors of these websites usually have an authoritarian or traditionalist stance pertaining to economics, politics and culture, and now magically natural laws of the universe agree with their conservative stances. Look at how these websites are constructed, because there’s a peculiar pattern to them.

I’m willing to help you out on some topics here, such as evidence for the afterlife, telepathy, and to a smaller extent, theism. I’m not going to help anybody verify their religion though. I still hold nonbiased secular research, along with the information obtained from those sources in high regards. I have enough skeptics on my butt here without worrying about debating religious folks, but I appreciate almost any type of variation from the normal userbase at this point.

@Hypocrisy_Central Come on, you just told me you really believed in another thread, and then turn around and throw the Pascal’s Wager card. I’ll remind you of something sir, that I hope you indeed do choose carefully in choosing the ‘right’ god, right religion, and the correct savior out of the other 16 saviors before Jesus. The irony of all of this is that I feel little ole’ secular me probably believes there’s a god more then many of the Christians that I debate against. I’m going to repeat my old question again, and disregard your original response: Do you really believe there’s a god?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@ninjacolin I have tried to be cordial and diplomatic about it but if you want to hurl insults, then the gloves come off, God forgive me if my human side shows up

you’re not afraid of hellfire. None of you hardcore fundamentalist christians are.
Why should I? That would be like worrying about drowning when you are being rescued off a sinking boat. The lake of fire was not made for saints, it was made for all those who don’t want to accept the gift of life Christ brought to the world.

You’re not worried about hellfire because you really, REALLY believe God exists and that you have done everything you can to deserve the rewards he offers.
I have done NOTHING to deserve His reward. I can’t bee good enough, can’t do enough good works, I can possess enough money. The only way I am justified is by the blood of Christ, it was His grace that I am saved, nothing else.

Yes, you’re programmed to remember and to make claims that ‘only god knows who will be saved!’ but you don’t believe it for a second that there’s any chance YOU of all people will be burning forever in hell.
You are bamboozled by Satan to believe there is nothing beyond the grave. If so you would have no fear of dying, go sky diving, shark hunting, anything with any risk should not worry you. If you were unsuccessful barnstorming that barn you would never know you were dead because your soul would cease to exist. You would see the ground coming then nothing, only you’d not even know that. How would you know if any saint will endure everlasting punishment? You do not even believe the Book it came from. If one is on the ledge of a burning building to not make any choice is still a choice made to perish when the building burns up.

You believe you are saved.
I believe that because God gave me the road map to being saved. There is one way, through Christ and I chose to take it. You chose your own way, be happy with it. Stand on the ledge, hope the fire goes out before it gets to you. Anyway it goes, our time on earth is as a vapor, soon enough we will all be gone, pray you don’t realize you are gone because it will be too late.

You aren’t worried about hell. And yet you believe.
Well, guess what? I don’t worry about hell. And yet I disbelieve.
Of course, most who don’t believe do not think there is anything beyond here. Believe that, embrace it, and I say again, hope you don’t realize you have died, if you do, it is too late.

Fear simply doesn’t motivate belief.
If you think fear motivates those who except God, I don’t know what to say, that would be kind to say

That’s why Jesus performed miracles: To convince people with things they could observe for themselves. That’s why Jesus offered his hand to Thomas, so that he could observe and be convinced. That’s why God made roses grow out of staff, and water from a rock and mana from heaven and dudes in whale bellies: PROOF. EVIDENCE. OBSERVATION.
I almost busted out laughing. Why did Jesus perform miracles? He did so to show He was the Son of God, and that God gave Him all power and authority to do so. Thomas did doubt, he was a man with a weak mind to understanding all spiritual things. The roses, I will get back to you. He gave them manna and water from a rock because they were still humans and had to eat. He did not want them building farms and ranches in the Sinai because that was not the land He freed them to possess.

Hellfire sure sounds scary but so does the boogey man. I’m not going to start worshiping either of the alleged mystic creatures behind them, sorry.
It is only scary to those on the way there, even if they don’t know it, it is no boogeyman to me, because this is as close to it as I will ever get. I am not sorry you won’t believe, you are not going to stand before me and have to explain why you didn’t. I CANNOT condemn anyone to the lake of fire.

@Hypocrisy_Central without sufficient proof and evidence, god CANNOT expect you to believe anything about him. Why? Because our brains are limited to believing based on experience.
Of course I could not understand god, he is wood, stone, or metal. God I can understand enough to know His plan of salvation because He inspired His prophets to write the words to the Bible and man to discover them so everyone who wants to partake of it can. Then, it makes no sense to those who are perishing.

Also, because you haven’t thought it through: Would you reject your child for not knowing his way out of maze with traps and an unknown time limit? Of course not. That would be stupid and unfair. And if you wouldn’t do it, what makes you think your God would?
I wouldn’t and He didn’t. If I was able to get a map to my child but he/she tore it up, ignore it or rejected it as being clues sent by me, what happens to them happens. It was off their rejection not my withholding it from them or failing to attempt to reach them.

I’m sure you would agree, it would be very unlike your God to punish people for not knowing better than was possible for them to know given the evidence in front of them.
My God doesn’t. If you really want to know, He will send someone to you that does know to tell you, but you will get the word. Once you receive it, it is up to you to accept it, if you don’t He will not cram it down your throat less you be able to say it was forced upon you. God will not force Himself on anyone who doesn’t want to accept Him.

@ETpro Pascal’s wager is a fool’s bet.
If someone wants to bet you they do not think the sun will rise and believe it wholeheartedly, then to them I guess it would be. If you believe 99.98% that it will (it could blow up, up the chances are so small you can’t even calculated it) then it is no where near Pascal’s wager. If you believe you are on the winning side of that coin toss, just live out your life, have fun, enjoy, the moment death takes your body you will know if you won, or never know because your soul will cease to exist, if you didn’t win you would have truly lost indeed. Take the risk if you wish, for you it is no risk.

I got so many PM’s thanking me for speaking up, that I continued feeling a responsibility to stand up for my religion.
God is going to be God. He will lose no power, no sovereignty; He will lose no holiness if I said nothing. I don’t need to defend God, if he wanted he would smote this whole planet with an asteroid that would make people crap until they had hemorrhoids. The same way none of the atheist here would let me make silly comments about what they believe unchallenged, I am commanded by my Father to warn them that the bridge is out, if they chose to still go it is on them, not me, for I warned them; the same way as if I smelled gas but did not tell someone knowing they were going in that area to smoke. If I tall them do not light up back there and they do anyhow, it was not like I knew and let them blow themselves up.

@KNOWITALL but I’m not e-witnessing person-to-person, they all know where to find me if they have particular questions. Peace.
I learned to avoid question about God, or religion which is of man, on this site, but if someone injects it into the conversation erroneously or with bogus information, I will say something. Peace of God be upon you.

ETpro's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central As usual, your rebuttal never bothered to take up the issue I raised. So I won’t waste time restating it so that you can ignore it yet again in your quest to be right. Time will tell. But my bet is with reason and logic, not absurdities.

Paradox25's avatar

@KNOWITALL I love debating about religion, mysticism and sometimes god. I wouldn’t be on here if these types of issues were not discussed on here. There’s a great deal to branch out from these issues when trying to be innovative, so it doesn’t have to be the same old same old. I expected to be countered on this site, not congratulated, for presenting my arguments. Try debating on a form like JERF if you want to see tough. I want people to know what and why I believe what I do, and vice versa. I’m reasonably certain that I can hold my own against most skeptics.

@Hypocrisy_Central The answer here is obvious, most people don’t believe there’s a god on fluther so of course they’re not going to answer questions in the spirit that She exists. (my god is a woman)

ninjacolin's avatar

@ninjacolin I have tried to be cordial and diplomatic about it but if you want to hurl insults, then the gloves come off, God forgive me if my human side shows up

I didn’t insult you and your post was just fine too. No worries.

^ (which means I’m referring to/thinking of Paradox25’x post while I reply to HC) @Hypocrisy_Central have you ever had someone try to explain something to you that you just couldn’t wrap your head around very quickly? Ever had one of those moments where after lots and lots of seemingly exhausting explanation finally you hit an AHA moment and exclaim something like: “OOOOH! NOW I GET WHAT YOU ARE SAYING!! Why didn’t you just say that in the first place?”

That’s the kind of moment all of us non-believers are looking for from your God. You tend to assume that we are all rejecting some clear sign. We aren’t. That’s the whole point of not believing something: It means.. we don’t find it believable. Get it? Like if you were to tell me my computer was on fire right now, I wouldn’t believe you even if you were right. It doesn’t mean I reject your message, it means I don’t have a reason to believe you’re not making shit up. Likewise, if I was to tell you that the TRUE path to salvation was to bow down and worship my radiator, I’m sure you would “reject” my message even if I was 100% right.

That’s what you never seem to get: No one has even had a CHANCE to reject your God’s message because no one has any reason to believe that it’s worth taking seriously. Everything about your God’s story is absurd. Do you really think your God should punish people who aren’t gullible enough to believe your fairy tales are real? (BTW, this description isn’t an insult.. it’s meant to abundantly inform you of our very real perspective. Perhaps it will help you to communicate better.. i mean if our ever lasting lives really are on the line, then you better step up your game because right now you just sounds unrealistic, really. I would rather you punished for failing to communicate with me effectively. Think: criminal negligence.)

Why did Jesus perform miracles? He did so to show..
exactly. He did so to show something. To demonstrate. To provide evidence.

Lacking evidence is exactly why I don’t believe your message about God. And that’s the whole reason why ANYONE “rejects” your message. It’s not because people don’t want a good thing, as you like to assume. It’s because you aren’t offering anything that seems at all realistic in face of the evidence.

There isn’t a single sane person on the face of this earth who believes whole heartedly that they are going to hell. Do you get the significance of that? It means everyone is innocent. And your message is moot because everyone who DOES become convinced of your way takes it. The only people who don’t take your way are those who really just have no clue that it’s something realistic: They are ignorant and necessarily innocent as a result.

Anyway, I hope this makes some sense to you. You’ve either been doing a really really horrible job of preaching a very important message or maybe it’s time to realize that your message should be easier to adopt if it really was of an all knowing, all loving God. I mean, I’m not exactly a hard sell.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@Paradox25

“Not all theists feel that way”

I understand that. Unfortunately you are misunderstanding the actual meaning and as you stated “when examined under closer scrutiny mainstream Christianity philosophically doesn’t even make sense to me.” So I am trying to find things for you that may make more sense, but unfortunately in regards to my understanding, this is what makes more sense and is rational for me.

Read this if you like:

That brings us to my second contention, that the Muslim concept of God is rationally objectionable. Now in claiming this, I’m not trying to put anybody down or attack someone personally. I’m just saying that it seems to me that the Islamic conception of God has real problems which render it rationally objectionable. Let me share just one of those deficits, namely: Islam has a morally deficient concept of God.
~Dr.William Lane Craig

The majority of these creationists sites cherry pick their ideology into an ‘objective’ truth by only posting unknowns in well established theories, and by leaving out certain data. They then assume that these unknowns equal their religion being the one true one.

The site that I most often reference is called “Reasonable Faith”. Dr. William Lane Craig usually debates atheists and non believers so yes I suppose he does cherry pick to tailor his arguments to suit the debates. He is also a Christian apologist so of course that is his agenda. On his site he has many questions he answers with rational and logical answers and all of his debates are archived. A proper debate is done with certain restrictions and guidelines which arguments must be followed and tailored to address the opposition, otherwise the debate becomes irrational. I am not so sure what you are trying to say in regards to me though.

“I’ve also noticed that the authors of these websites usually have an authoritarian or traditionalist stance pertaining to economics, politics and culture, and now magically natural laws of the universe agree with their conservative stances.”

If you are talking about anything I have quoted from Dr.Craig, that is because he is highly educated in his field.

I beg to differ. I notice that you seem to be pointing fingers at creationism, but let’s not forget that atheists can be outspoken and highly critical and lack common sense and rational also. Let me just point out a very interesting person of whom you quoted in an earlier comment: “I actually hold Dawkins in higher regards than a Craig or a Ross

Once Dr. Craig was supposed to debate with Richard Dawkins and Richard refused, ignorantly Dawkin’s left his chair empty with the stadium filled with people eagerly waiting to watch the debate. Dr. Craig engaged the crowd that night. We would start to find out that Dawkin’s is not doing much better for himself or his group of followers logically or rationally.

ninjacolin's avatar

@KaY_Jelly, following signs is one way to go about life but my way has brought its own abundance of joy and happiness and I attribute it very much to what @ETpro described: “it can be reason. That’s a valid alternative.”

To each his own, of course. The diversity of beliefs and decisions is a beauty in itself. Mind you, I don’t believe in choice per se. I’m certain your way is necessary for you at this time as mine is for me until some course-altering evidence enters our memories to change that. The thunderstorm won’t do it for me, this time. :)

When you think of people as teams you can imagine how if you and I had some sort of course to run, maybe a project to build or division of company to mange or a city to run, you would contribute ideas that came more from what I would call random sources (and which you might call intuitive sources) and I would contribute more methodical ideas (which you might consider boring sources). The end result would be a piece of art which wouldn’t be the same if you or I were any different.

Embracing this diversity as an asset in accomplishing this artwork we call fluther (or humanity) can be such a challenge. I can’t claim to have it all down yet myself.. coming back to the topic of the thread.. it’s hard to play along with someone else’s worldview sometimes.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

^That is a very interesting analogy :)

I just have one thing I want to get clarified just for some who don’t understand, by the end of this that could even be me lol when you say “I don’t believe in choice per se”, you don’t mean that in the regular layperson way of “I will have another cookie”, I think you are too smart to make an irrational comment like that, what I think you are saying and correct me if, I’m wrong that we are not here by Gods design so therefore it was not done by choice. And so you are not more of one way or the other in regards to whether or not if you believe that.

That’s how much of a thinker I am that I got that from 1 small sentence. Lmao! And it’s the morning and I haven’t even had my coffee!

Paradox25's avatar

@KaY_Jelly Actually leaving Christianity was the best thing that I’d ever done for myself, and has actually strengthened my belief in a higher power. I’m not going to ramble on anymore about this here, but I post on other sites pertaining to these matters because like the poster has stated, most people on fluther don’t accept theological or spiritual concepts, so in order to have deeper discussions I’ve found that sometimes it’s necessary. There are some very intelligent people on those forums, and I highly doubt that many skeptics will leave their conglomerate safe havens to debate people on that level on those forums. Many skeptics on here would be torn to shreds on those forums I suspect, but as a nonskeptic I frequently take up the challenge of debating skeptics in their havens.

Were you aware that afterlife research has been partaken by secular minded scientists and investigators for the past 150 years? I hold the secular research of the afterlife in much higher regards than the testimony of religious apologists or subjective interpretation of some ancient book/s. I’m rather surprised that the many religionists on this site don’t bother to look at my material, since my data from empirical research about an afterlife seems to be in line with what many religions preach. If any of you Christians are interested in viewing my data, or are looking for decent secular sites and books pertaining to afterlife and mediumship evidence I’m here.

I’ve read several books written by Christian apologists, I’ve frequented their websites, and damn I used to be a Christian. Perhaps more Christians should be willing to look at my research data and links for a change, and look at material from secular researchers for a change. In fact why wouldn’t someone (not meaning anybody in particular here) who identifies themselves as a Christian not be interested in this?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@ETpro @Hypocrisy_Central As usual, your rebuttal never bothered to take up the issue I raised.
What rebuttal is there? There is nothing you can raise. What will happen is you will leave your life as you believe thinking there is no consequence, no after life, when death takes your body, at the very moment it happens you will not even know because you will no longer exist. Why worry about anything else? Don’t worry about dying because if you had an aneurism that you did not know and it took you out half way through reading this sentence, you won’t even know it.

I am going to live my live worthy of showing the Creator through me. I will accept His gift of salvation, when I die I expect to see Him, and for Him to tell me I am approved and I will have an eternity in paradise instead of the lake of fire.

Bottom line, if I am wrong I would have lost nothing. If you are wrong what will you lose? ask yourself that.
@ninjacolin I didn’t insult you and your post was just fine too.
Insults can come in subtle ways. If I were to refer to the gay population as “those wicked people”, you don’t think they would feel insulted by it? If someone is calling God a mythical creature, or imaginary friends made up in my head I am insulted. Thank God He is not insulted or they might find a Boeing 727 parking on their house, or themselves choking on that piece of burger they are eating.

@Hypocrisy_Central have you ever had someone try to explain something to you that you just couldn’t wrap your head around very quickly? Ever had one of those moments where after lots and lots of seemingly exhausting explanation finally you hit an AHA moment and exclaim something like: “OOOOH! NOW I GET WHAT YOU ARE SAYING!! Why didn’t you just say that in the first place?”
I DID actually, the day I surrendered to Jesus. I woke up from my arrogant stupor of thinking man was the hot shit of the galaxy and the ultimate master of his own domain, which he never owned anyhow. Rather than listening to people tell me what type of relationship I should have with God, I asked Him to show me through His word, and His Spirit, and He did.

That’s the kind of moment all of us non-believers are looking for from your God. You tend to assume that we are all rejecting some clear sign. We aren’t.
First off, if God did do some miracle you really think those of you who chose not to believe will not try to dismiss it as some scientific phenomena? Rather than saying it was God, non-believing scientist will try to reason it out on themselves, some natural but freakish occurrence, some event horizon or anything else they can fathom.

Romans 1:19,20
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

God is seen everywhere to those who want to admit it. At any given part overhead there are 100s of gallons of water flying. At times it comes down in short order as to flood whole neighborhoods or cities. Man can explain it as best they can but they can’t reproduce the action. Neither can they produce gravity even though they claim to understand how it works. The water forms clouds, the clouds make rain or snow, and the water runs back to the sea, stated in the Bible before modern meteorologist entered the scene, yet man knows how it work and try to explain how that action purifies the water that man’s pollution contaminated. This is just the tip of an ice berg but man will never admit to something being planned that he did not plan, if he didn’t it just happened. I read in a Popular Science months ago how they were trying to build a hummingbird. They have been working on it a long time. If they know how a hummingbird’s wings work, why is it man can’t effectively build on, or took them so long to get close, or with any other bird, insect or bat wings? There are signs, non-believer just choose not to believe them.

That’s the whole point of not believing something: It means.. we don’t find it believable. Get it?
Then un-believers should understand why I don’t take everything in science as a slam dunk and if it can’t really be explained it doesn’t exist. People will readily believe in a black hole which no one has seen, no probe has examined, no astronaut has visited. They say because of certain radio waves, etc it has to exist. Here is a thought, if I placed you on a beach, and I placed a transparent barrier 100yr out in the water, you can’t get to the barrier but it was so high you could not see the top of it, and so wide you could not see the sides of it, if I were able to shoot it with a paint ball over the horizon where you could not see the ship it was fired from, once it struck this transparent barrier the splatter would appear to float above the water. What they theorized about how the splatter hovered over the water or floated in air might not be correct, especially if they did not know there was a barrier or it was something that could not be comprehend. Maybe there is something undetectable between here and the alleged black hole that is yet to be detected, that will prove there was never a black hole in the first place.

Likewise, if I was to tell you that the TRUE path to salvation was to bow down and worship my radiator, I’m sure you would “reject” my message even if I was 100% right.
But we know that human hands built that radiator. Salvation in that sense would be man-created, and not divine.

There isn’t a single sane person on the face of this earth who believes whole heartedly that they are going to hell. Do you get the significance of that? It means everyone is innocent. And your message is moot because everyone who DOES become convinced of your way takes it. The only people who don’t take your way are those who really just have no clue that it’s something realistic: They are ignorant and necessarily innocent as a result.
—Basically throughout this passage you claim that anyone who believes in God, or the lake of fire is insane, and ignorant, surprised you did not cap it off with ”stupid” as well. But I am not to feel insulted.—Just because you believe no one is guilty or sinless doesn’t mean it is so, get that? I can contend any sane person would not take the priceless gift of salvation and toss it to the bottom of the ocean when they know the value of it. I can further say that Satan has them so blinded they can even see they are tripping over their own foot until they see it burst into flames in the lake of fire when they will cry they believe but it will be too late.

Anyway, I hope this makes some sense to you. You’ve either been doing a really really horrible job of preaching a very important message or maybe it’s time to realize that your message should be easier to adopt if it really was of an all knowing, all loving God. I mean, I’m not exactly a hard sell.
I am not preaching, I am just trying to contain the inaccuracies to a manageable level. If false facts came up and I did not at least attempt to correct them, someone on the side might think they were true. If you were at the coffee house and someone said to avoid Fluther it is full of ads and you had to participate in the ads to join, if you knew better and said nothing, maybe that person would go join Askville, Answerbag, or some other place because you did not take the time to get them straight. If after you tell them they go off to another site anyhow, if they chose a worse place it was on them, can you understand that?

I will leave it with this and I am done: Bottom line, if I am wrong I would have lost nothing. If you are wrong what will you lose? Ask yourself that. If I follow the Bible I will live a live much devoid of greed, malice, slander, gossip, etc, so if I die and there is nothing what would I have lost? If you followed that devoid of Christ and died to discover there is something else, what will you lose, or gain?

ETpro's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Goodbye then. I do all those things without any inquisitor standing over me judging not only my actions, but my very thoughts, always looking for an excuse to throw me into eternal torment.

As with the other extremist here, I will only post rebuttals to obvious logical fallacies you post or link to. Since you take that position, further direct discussion would be an utter waste of my time and yours.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central looks like I just found out we can suit up for that extreme diving mission to search for human remains. This is a special dedication just for our next extreme dive!

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@Paradox25 I hear you loud and clear. Funny you mentioned afterlife research. I have ARC as one of my bookmarks. I’m not trying to drown out your voice or your opinion. I have nothing but respect for it.

Everyone has a path in life they choose to take and respectfully we are on different paths. That is not to say our paths have not or will not, or can not cross. I respect everything you have to say and I will take it into consideration. Thank you for your input, I do value it, if I ever come in your direction I will look to you and I will gladly steer people your way if need be ;)

If I didn’t want others opinions, I wouldn’t be out here where my views are on a highly open public opinionated site. :)

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@KaY_Jelly You know, I would rather be AN EXTREMIST FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS, than a half-baked minion working to destruction. And I think God is very happy for it. :-)

Paradox25's avatar

@KaY_Jelly I try to look at everything with an open-mind, but not too open. I even debate people on my side of the fence. I also feel that many in my camp (proparanormal) do really stupid things to hinder our efforts as well. I don’t even touch most proparanormal or New Age sites, so my links to articles are usually decent. I also don’t feel that there can be anything more important than surviving death, so in order to get the most accurate picture of it I’d decided that empirical research by unbiased afterlife investigators were the way to go.

Empirical research along with evidence holds much more water to me than the subjective interpretation of words in an ancient book/s, or from word of mouth from a religionist who never actually bothered to investigate the secular case for an afterlife. I might be able to get some afterlife researchers on here, and that ought to spruce this place up a bit. It kind of angers me the attitudes people have about this topic, because the issue of survival of mind at physical death is in fierce debate within the scientific community, and the pseudoscience label seems to get tossed around rather freely on many skeptical forums.

I hope that you stay on fluther, and with the knowledge that not all people will agree with your views. Many religious people eliminate their accounts rather quickly, at least the vocal ones. Well I’m done with this thread, and good luck to yourself on fluther, and in life. I’ll help you when I can on some issues, when time permits me.

ninjacolin's avatar

NC: The..people who don’t take your way.. are ignorant and necessarily innocent as a result.
HC: —Basically throughout this passage you claim that anyone who believes in God, or the lake of fire is insane, and ignorant, surprised you did not cap it off with ”stupid” as well. But I am not to feel insulted.—

I hope it’s now clear that you misread what I wrote. I said: People who don’t take your way do so out of ignorance that your way is at all worthwhile. Which makes them innocent. I also said: No sane person believes they are going to hell. It does not follow that insane people must believe they are going to heaven. So, NO, you shouldn’t feel insulted by anything said there.

HC: I read in a Popular Science months ago how they were trying to build a hummingbird. They have been working on it a long time. If they know how a hummingbird’s wings work, why is it man can’t effectively build on, or took them so long to get close, or with any other bird, insect or bat wings? There are signs, non-believer just choose not to believe them.

Man doesn’t have the ability to emulate things that they haven’t studied and practiced. I don’t understand why you would expect them to perform faster and smarter than is humanly possible. I mean if you look at the history of the world, even Nature (ie. God) wasn’t able to create humming birds for 4 billion years or so. Man accomplished it in less than 5 million years. I mean, I would say we’re winning that race.

NC: Likewise, if I was to tell you that the TRUE path to salvation was to bow down and worship my radiator, I’m sure you would “reject” my message even if I was 100% right.
HC: But we know that human hands built that radiator. Salvation in that sense would be man-created, and not divine.

Human hands penned the Bible, the Koran, Grimm’s Fairy Tales, the book of Narnia, the Satanic Bible.. and whole lot of other things. So.. which of these human crafted devices am I to consider as being God inspired if not my radiator?

HC: If someone is calling God a mythical creature, or imaginary friends made up in my head I am insulted.
If you don’t understand the sticking points that make it difficult for me to consider your story realistic then you will never learn what it will take to help me see things your way. I’m specifically asking you to draw a distinction between your mythology and that of every other culture in the world. Why should I believe that your myths are not myths AND that everyone elses myths are truly just myths?

Just to be clear: I think you’re just being superstitious. Superstitious people can take their superstitions VERY seriously. I don’t know if you have any experience with superstitious people outside of your faith but.. I know you are serious because you speak about all this stuff just like a superstitious person does!

I’m not insulting you, I’m telling you my perspective so that you can deal with me head on.

HC: Bottom line, if I am wrong I would have lost nothing. If you are wrong what will you lose? ask yourself that.

@Hypocrisy_Central, if you don’t rub my radiator you will suffer for eternity in a lake of fire EVEN IF that lake has to follow you up to heaven. There is no escaping it. So, are you going to give my radiator a rub before you die or not? If not, why not?

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@ninjacolin well you’ve done a good job at pointing out that his arguments could be wrong after he’s been arguing his points, pretty much from the beginning, :/ lol and I am sure he will take on your last points. Lol.

I just simply wanted to point out that there is no proof in your argument and it’s simply because you lack faith.

Unfortunately or fortunately, I don’t know, I just want to make clear that there is no proof of evidence of Gods existence or not so this can be argued until the cows come home. And just to be clear, I’m also saying there is no proof atheism is true.

The point is either side atheism or theism can be argued rationally or not. I am sorry but I personally don’t know or think that radiators are really a rational POV.

I just wanted to state my opinion. Other than that I’m all debated out. :s

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@ninjacolin Human hands penned the Bible, the Koran, Grimm’s Fairy Tales, the book of Narnia, the Satanic Bible.. and whole lot of other things. So.. which of these human crafted devices am I to consider as being God inspired if not my radiator?
Lets say you were part of a committee to do a function, and one of the parents wrote a note and sent it with their child telling you that you had to pick up something, or do some chore connected with the function. Just because the child took the phone call from the parent and wrote it out and delivered it to you, would you not believe it was what their parent said simply because it was not personally wrote by the parent? It is the same with God, how is a Spirit going to write in a physical realm? Why would He when He can dictate it to His prophets and disciples and have them write it.

2 Timothy 3:16
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

God did not have to make the effort to write out the Bible with pen and paper, or any other means, he dictated it as many do here on Earth.

If you don’t understand the sticking points that make it difficult for me to consider your story realistic then you will never learn what it will take to help me see things your way.
I do not care if you don’t see it my way, just because you don’t is not going to put me at risk of the lake of fire. If I cannot keep you from it by warning you, then I did all I could, and it is one you not me that you drop off the end of the bridge, so to speak._

Why should I believe that your myths are not myths AND that everyone elses myths are truly just myths?
If you truly believe it is a myth, I can’t show you anything, you will only discover it once it is too late. Again, I have done my best but you want to see signs or miracles you won’t believe as anything other than parlor tricks or trickery from Industrial Light and Magic.

Just to be clear: I think you’re just being superstitious.
Just to be clear, IF I am being superstitious and that causes me to live here in peace with my fellow man, not murdering him, stealing his goods, interfering in his relationships, cheating him in business dealings, holding him in higher regard than myself, and I should die and there is no heaven, what have I lost? If you live out your life as you please, not believing or following any entity you can’t see, feel, or touch because you believe them myth or superstition, and you die and discover you are wrong and this entity you believed was a myth is indeed real, what will you lose? If you need to have it more point blank, if you find my God is real and you find yourself standing before Him, what do you believe you would gain or lose?

I’m not insulting you, I’m telling you my perspective so that you can deal with me head on.
The way things are presented can be insulting even if you don’t intend it to be. If I were to use the Bible and say gay sex is abnormal or there is something naturally wrong with those who do it, even if I were straight forward on what I believed based on the Bible, do you think any gay person here would not feel slighted by being referred to as abnormal? Or if I kept referring you as a child of the Devil, as from the Bible you would take no offence to that, with the emphasis that you have to somehow be evil because the Devil is evil? Not that I can coin anyone evil for that is God’s authority, as well as who will eventually end up in the lake of fire, no matter what it physically appears to me.

glacial's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “IF I am being superstitious and that causes me to live here in peace with my fellow man, not murdering him, stealing his goods, interfering in his relationships, cheating him in business dealings, holding him in higher regard than myself, and I should die and there is no heaven, what have I lost? ”

Not one of the actions that you describe here is characteristic of being a non-Christian. I do not believe in Christ, but I live in peace with my fellow man, I do not murder, steal anyone’s goods, interfere in others’ relationships, cheat anyone in business dealings, and I have been known to hold others in higher regard than myself. Being a Christian or not has no bearing whatsoever on these things.

But to answer the gist of your question as most Christians ask it, that is, generously, and without judging atheists to be wholly without moral character… if I were to live my life as if the Christian god were real, and as if I believed in him, and obediently following all of his rules, what I would lose is my freedom.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

Ok I have to speak up. :/ so I’m sorry @glacial that sounds irrational to me. I was reading your answer and it seems to me that you are saying without a God humans lack freedom. And so it seems like if atheism were true then without God there is no moral argument.

So basically atheism is asking questions like and I of course asked this on another question, but who here has the morals of a praying mantis? And what makes our species so much better, besides of the fact that we think or can say we are better?

I was just wondering about the rationality of true freedom?

glacial's avatar

@KaY_Jelly Your post is hard for me to follow. I will try to answer the two questions that you have actually asked.

“who here has the morals of a praying mantis? ”
Well, I guess no one has the morals of a praying mantis. We both know that the majority of jellies on Fluther are atheist – can you think of one person here who has the morals of a praying mantis? I can’t. I have seen you ask this specific question on Fluther before, and what I think you are trying to say with it is that atheists cannot be more moral than animals. By putting it in very broad, vague terms (and using an insect, which is pretty far from any animal that we can empathize with), you avoid accusing people whose names you know of having no morals. So, let’s make it specific. Do you think that I personally have no morals, no sense of right or wrong? Is that what your experiences with me have led you to believe? Because I assure you that it is not true. I do know right from wrong, and I behave accordingly, without having to be instructed to do so by a religion. You have described yourself as being an atheist for a time. Did you kill many people during that period? If not, did you want to? If not, why not?

“And what makes our species so much better, besides of the fact that we think or can say we are better?”
What I think you are trying to ask is whether I think that humans are better than praying mantises (and you probably mean animals in general). The answer to your question depends on what “better” means to you. Are we smarter? Prettier? Faster? Stronger? I will assume that you mean “better” means “more moral”. I’m going to go out on a limb and assume that the brain of a praying mantis does not allow for morality. Many other animals (usually mammals) have shown empathy for other animals. Does this mean they can be “as moral” as humans? Whether they can show morality is an open question, but I think we can assume that they lack the ability to develop complex moral rules the way that humans can.

But I think the truest answer to your question is it doesn’t matter. Whether or not a praying mantis has morality does not answer the question of whether an atheist does. You believe in god, and I do not. We are both humans. You believe that you have morals, so you cannot possibly believe that humans do not have morals. The praying mantis thing is completely irrelevant.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@glacial ok so you did get partially what I was saying. I wasn’t speaking in laymans terms so I know you have morals and that isn’t what I was questioning.

The second part of your comment is more the stance I take and really what I was getting at. Sorry for the confusion, but hey you figured it out. :)

So let me get to the meat of it.
You say “the truest answer to your question is it doesn’t matter.”

That’s not rationally true either, that’s my point to the praying mantis question. We are all made in God’s image if we were not like other species, then rape, murder and beheading, would be a common and OK practice, but we do not have the morals of a praying mantis we are humanity, and rationally IMHO I believe we are governed by the God of love.

ETpro's avatar

@KaY_Jelly Your choice of the Praying Mantis (you could pick the black widow spider as well) is informative, and shows how you are confused about what is moral for a particular life form. The behavior (devouring ones mate) that we humans find so reprehensible in both those species is in fact a product of their evolution. It enhances the survival of their species. It has NOTHING to do with their failing to contemplate some sky daddy, and in fact if a sky daddy existed and cared about such behavior, he presumably would not have designed them to engage in it.

We humans have brutalized one another from the dawn of historic time, and judging from the demise of the Neanderthals and the ends of one after another modern human tribe in war, we did this from far before history was recorded, and we continue to do it to this day.

That said, morality is a self preservation behavior. Most of us are moral, whatever god we do or do not believe in. There is ZERO evidence that Christians are uniquely moral, despite how much they may wish to step up and beat their chests in smug self righteousness about being so. They have every bit as much blood on their hands as other religions do—far, far more than a number of them. Religion in total has far more blood on its hands than atheism does.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@ETpro I find it funny how not long ago you accused me of being a troll.  And you still continue to bait me into conversation?

Next, you go from morals to religion. :/  Neither has anything to do with eachother.

Again, you misunderstood what I was talking about.  I am not at all saying that Christians alone are uniquely moral, we know that is untrue.

And again you are debating the atheist laymans view on good and evil.  You don’t understand my argument and therefore your argument is non sensical to me.  
But I will try to clarify for you.

I’m talking about morals as in *moral epistemology,* questions about how we come to _know_ moral values,  
not good and bad intentions or moral ontology, questions about the _reality_ of moral values.

Yes, rape is wrong, I believe that and I’m sure you do, thus we can differentiate between good and evil so IMHO evolution can’t be the answer because different species evolve at different rates, and if evolution was the answer all land animals should all evolve equally and all phytoplankton, zooplankton and cetaceans should evolve equally because we/they are all exposed to the same elements.  That is not true which suggests to me there is a bigger purpose.

I was not talking about religion, until now, so which religion should we talk about?  Why not include the rest of religion besides Christianity, how about atheism  because you want to say that atheism has less blood on it’s hands OK, well what is your source? Don’t answer that.  Lol. Because then I can just call that appeal to authority.

Next, I think if it weren’t for people such as yourself who invoked similar qualities to God, or as you call Him “sky daddy”
(terms of endearment or more flaming rhetoric?) then I could probably dismiss your god complex as just another emotional evolution but since we are all made in His image, I’m going to also have to say that your propensity for knowledge comes from the “sky daddy”.

Other than that, we were done debating my theory and opinion on God the minute I was accused by you of being a troll or trollish or whatever the exact term was, it doesn’t matter.  What matters is that after so much lurve in a community one tends to get recognized and looked up to in a certain way.  Your behavior is only to further put you at an advantage and me at a disadvantage, or we can group together if you’d like into atheism and theism categories if the latter is too harsh.  But it is IMHO that you highly oppose theistic sensical opinions intruding on your mostly atheistic space, but honestly you are the most religious one between the two of us, tbh lets go back to the idea of atheism is a religion, and now you know. :p

So that’s fine, you can try to push us around, make fun of us and even try to troll us to the surface, but we God lovers are here to stay, many atheists such as yourself are hell bent and determined to make sure of it!

I have shown that I may not have the same account now as I did in the beginning but if I did I would of racked up almost over 10000 lurve by now so I have to sincerely apologize for my bipolar, and the fact that I cannot stay stable but it seems you and I have gotten no further along in our fluthership, but mere attacks on personality traits.

My only rational option at this time is to tell you that I will have to mostly appreciate your opinions from afar to avoid being such a troll to you so as to avoid you any further detriment caused by my actions.

But I still do and will appreciate your opinions even though atheism still makes no rational sense to me.

Atheist’s!  Don’t forget Singer says it’s morally OK to heavy pet. :/

glacial's avatar

@KaY_Jelly Ok, with your last paragraph I at least understand where you are coming from. If you are truly saying that you believe that atheists are no less moral than theists, then I have to re-evaluate many of the things you have said before, because sometimes you have seemed to be saying that. I disagree with you that morality comes from god in the sense that he created everyone and therefore we all have the same capacity for morality, but this is an argument that neither of us can move forward on its own merits. I honestly think (and I mean this as constructive advice) that you should not make your arguments in the context of evolution, because your writing indicates that you don’t appear to know very much about it – your point about morality is much stronger without resorting to that.

“atheism is a religion, and now you know”
I have always found this point of view funny… so perhaps it is fitting that the best response I’ve heard to it is by comedian Bill Maher: “Atheism is a religion in the same way that abstinence is a sex position”. In other words… it is not one. :)

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@glacial Not one of the actions that you describe here is characteristic of being a non-Christian.
I know, and? That is the point, if being a Christian and a part of this myth or superstition prompts me to do this daily with everyone, not just when it benefits me, what would I lose if I live my life that way even if there is no heaven?

I do not believe in Christ, but I live in peace with my fellow man, I do not murder, steal anyone’s goods, interfere in others’ relationships, cheat anyone in business dealings, and I have been known to hold others in higher regard than myself. Being a Christian or not has no bearing whatsoever on these things.
Right, none of those things are done by Christians only, even ungodly people do those as well. But as you say “have been known to” says to me you are not known for, that you pick and choose whom to hold in higher regard for yourself.

But to answer the gist of your question as most Christians ask it, that is, generously, and without judging atheists to be wholly without moral character… if I were to live my life as if the Christian god were real, and as if I believed in him, and obediently following all of his rules, what I would lose is my freedom.
Wha-wha-what? No……I am not judging atheist as being without moral character, I would say that the morality atheist use, originally came from God, even if they vehemently try to say otherwise. Morality came from somewhere, either from God, or some man or body of men no different than you other than they said this is right, and that is wrong and got atheist to believe it. Lets digress again and ask, if you lived your life apart from the commandments of God, living it like atheist do, that God does not exist and there is no heaven; living life as if once dead there is nothing. If you lived life like that but then you died and discovered you did not go into oblivion, the great white zephrum, never-never land, etc but ended up BEFORE GOD That you denied, what would you lose? Or is the mere thought that you could be wrong makes you so arrogant you can’t even think you would ever stand before God? I told you if I died and you were right, I still lived a good life here on Earth. If you died here on Earth and ended up in the afterlife in the present of God, what would you lose? Surely you are not too scared to answer that, are you? 8-P

glacial's avatar

Sure, @Hypocrisy_Central, I can imagine that in the same way that I can put myself into a good science fiction story – it’s easy enough to do with a little imagination. And I am telling you that if I died, and it turned out that the Christian god were real, and I stood before him for judgment, and was told that my lack of belief and my life of denying god merited an eternity in a lake of fire – I would still not bow down before him and ask for forgiveness or understanding or mercy. I would tell him that I judged him for his contradictions and his cruelty, for his jealousy and petty anger, and mainly for his lack of compassion. And I’d tell him to go jump in the lake.

In short, no. I would not live my life differently on the infinitely tiny chance that such an unlikely, unworthy creature exists and is threatening me with an eternity of torture. I have too much integrity for that.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@glacial You see it all starts to come together :) I can at least say thank you for paying attention and actually having an intelligent 2 sided conversation!

Conversations with others proves that my points are less likely to be understood, or that the case is that the jelllies are posiblly trolls. :(

I appreciate you and your opinions and your choices even if they do not align with my choices.

glacial's avatar

@KaY_Jelly Right back atcha. :)

KaY_Jelly's avatar

I did not correct my spelling. I spelled possibly wrong. lol I am so tired. zzz. Hooked on phonics.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@glacial I would tell him that I judged him for his contradictions and his cruelty, for his jealousy and petty anger, and mainly for his lack of compassion.
What contradiction? Cruelty and petty anger, is man still on this planet? If you had a child would you not be jealous for his/her affection or you would think it OK for them to love and respect any old Tom, Dick or Harry from who knows where the same as you, and maybe even more? The Reason why people even have the option of being atheist shows God’s compassion. He could choke out an atheist quicker and more efficient than Darth Vader ever could with the force

At least you were honest with your choice, hope He don’t hold it against you when you do see Him. ;-P

ninjacolin's avatar

@KaY_Jelly asked: “when you say “I don’t believe in choice per se”, you don’t mean that in the regular layperson way of “I will have another cookie”..

Yes I do mean it that way. I believe choices happen. I don’t believe there is a soul that gets to make them. Choices are merely complex weather patterns that occur in succession in the brain. There are no decisions to have a tornado or a bumper crop or an earthquake or rainbow or an aurora borealis, although these are very complex occurrences, there isn’t a soul behind them outside of the raw energy of the universe that put it all in motion in the first place sometime around the big bang. I feel the same way about humans and the complex phenomena their brains go through which sometimes results in things like functioning societies, higher education, homes being built, acts of courageousness, acts of love, acts of hate, amusements parks, the rise and fall of civilizations and the like. They’re all just weather patterns extended and infinitely complex. One thing leading to another at the tip of occam’s razor.

In this view, we do have the morality of a praying mantis, doing whatever seems to make the most sense to us at a given time under the confines of our intellect and physical forms. We are exactly like a praying mantis except our physiological make up changes the kinds of decisions that tend to come out of our brains’ storms.

ninjacolin's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central said: God did not have to make the effort to write out the Bible with pen and paper, or any other means, he dictated it as many do here on Earth.

Scientific evidence is the best kind of evidence we have ever heard of. It’s the most dependable. Without being able to verify something scientifically, there can be no consensus on what is true: Either everyone can see the evidence speaks for itself or else it isn’t admissible.

Scientifically, it seems admissible to report that humans played a part in writing the bible. Even you admit this. But it simply isn’t so plainly evident that anyone besides man (eg. a god like the one the bible refers to) played any role in the writing of the bible at all.

The bible lacks a guarantee of authorship.

I do not care if you don’t see it my way, just because you don’t is not going to put me at risk of the lake of fire.”

ah! so you’re just in it for selfish purposes, huh?

“If I cannot keep you from it by warning you, then I did all I could, and it is one you not me that you drop off the end of the bridge, so to speak.”

Actually, it’s on God. I mean, you can do all you can but ultimately he’s the one who’s gotta be understood. And he seems to have a lot of trouble being understood. I mean, he’s either going to make himself known through credible sources or he’s not. Right now, as I explained above, the sources we’re given simply aren’t very credible. There’s a proof of authorship missing.

If you truly believe it is a myth, I can’t show you anything, you will only discover it once it is too late.

Well it’s not my fault it looks like a myth! If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck, feels like a duck, and has a duck collar.. is it a horse?

I don’t understand why anyone would believe a story like this was true. It’s highly unlikely. Like blowing on dice for better luck when gambling.

“IF I am being superstitious and that causes me to live here in peace with my fellow man, not murdering him, stealing his goods, interfering in his relationships, cheating him in business dealings, holding him in higher regard than myself, and I should die and there is no heaven, what have I lost?

No problem, go nuts! Just don’t make other’s lives mroe difficult by voting against gay marriage and against scientific curriculums in schools based on this stuff. That’s the only time these religions become a serious burden on the world. Otherwise, we’re just talking about ideas which is completely fine. :)

If you live out your life as you please, not believing or following any entity you can’t see, feel, or touch because you believe them myth or superstition, and you die and discover you are wrong and this entity you believed was a myth is indeed real, what will you lose? If you need to have it more point blank, if you find my God is real and you find yourself standing before Him, what do you believe you would gain or lose?

Assuming your God were real.. I think this is what I’ve been saying for a few posts now, actually.. I think I’d get twice the heaven you get!! I mean, he knows I need evidence to believe anything, like Thomas. He knows I’m a fantastically flawed (and therby normal) human being.. so, I’m in the clear, man! Why would I have to worry?

I doubt your god would throw me in a lake of fire for not being ABLE to believe in him. Can you imagine that? I’m sure even you wouldn’t worship him if he was gonna go about punishing people who were perfectly good and normal and thoughtful and interested in goodness but who simply never heard a myth worth believing was anything more than a myth!

If I were to use the Bible and say gay sex is abnormal or there is something naturally wrong with those who do it, even if I were straight forward on what I believed based on the Bible, do you think any gay person here would not feel slighted by being referred to as abnormal?

I’ll give it some thought, man, but just so you know the “myth” stuff is meant to help you understand where I’m coming from. I’m not challenging you with that term, I’m actually asking you quite directly: How do you make a distinction?

@Hypocrisy_Central a question for you!! – Are you afraid of any other God’s aledged punishments? Have you made your peace with every other God out there just in case they were real? If not, then why not?

Also, What do you think of this video on the topic?

KaY_Jelly's avatar

So then I am not wrong because I @KaY_Jelly said that “what I think you are saying and correct me if, I’m wrong that we are not here by Gods design so therefore it was not done by choice.”

@ninjacolin you say, In this view, we do have the morality of a praying mantis, doing whatever _seems to make the most sense to us at a given time under the confines of our intellect and physical forms._

So I have to ask you, do we actually have the morality of a praying mantis? That is the big question! Does a praying mantis even have morals? Just because a we do whatever seems to make the most sense at that time does not mean that it isn’t put there by a creator.

This statement makes incredible sense to me…Humans are made in His image. Animals are wonderfully uncreative. Your next comment will follow this by saying;

We are exactly like a praying mantis except our physiological make up changes the kinds of decisions that tend to come out of our brains’ storms.

Which then makes me wonder why any creature who has minimal psychological effects to things like rape and murder of their own kind but still lacks the rational behavior that humanity has and rules their societies without the same effects as humanity? That tells me that their “morals” work, yet we oppose to most of the same “morals” A more simple form of the question as I said above,

“And what makes our species so much better, besides of the fact that we think or can say we are better?”

“I was just wondering about the rationality of true freedom?”

I just want to repeat what I said here again:

“I’m talking about morals as in moral epistemology, questions about how we come to know moral values, not good and bad intentions or moral ontology, questions about the reality of moral values.”

“Yes, rape is wrong, I believe that and I’m sure you do, thus we can differentiate between good and evil so IMHO evolution can’t be the answer because different species evolve at different rates, and if evolution was the answer all land animals should all evolve equally and all phytoplankton, zoo-plankton and cetaceans should evolve equally because we/they are all exposed to the same elements. That is not true which suggests to me there is a bigger purpose.”

Which then makes me also wonder why do we not treat each other equally? Or to answer your second comment again, why is it that “our psychological make up changes the kinds of decisions that tend to come out of our brains’ storms” which just happens to be IMHO so much like that of the Christian God? Again more reason why I believe that humanity is made in the image of Him.

ninjacolin's avatar

@KaY_Jelly said: “Just because we do whatever seems to make the most sense at that time does not mean that it isn’t put there by a creator.”

Well, that just begs the question: Is gravity something God created or not?
Occam’s razor suggests that the simplest answer will be the right answer.. And the simplest answer is that you and I could not be having this very conversation unless that’s just what reality itself dictates. Even if there is a God, even he could not have made the universe any other way, it wasn’t his decision it wasn’t my decision it wasn’t anyone’s decision or fault. It’s just the way things have to be in order for them to be real: The limits of reality itself. None of this proves or disproves God’s existence as far as I can tell.

@KaY_Jelly said: “makes me wonder why any creature [with even] minimal psychological effects to things like rape and murder of their own kind, lack the rational behavior that humanity has and [makes me wonder why such creatures rule] their societies [differently than humans do]?”This was a tough sentence to read so I paraphrased to what I understood, correct me if I was wrong.

The difference is their physiological make up doesn’t allow them to have the same IQ as our physiological make up. We are smarter creatures. You do see more moral behavior in animals that approach our level of intelligence. Things like fairness and justice and mourning and reciprocity.. these kinds of phenomenon are more common in certain physical forms than others. Rocks have very little of any of this, for example. Ants have a little more… etc, etc.. Hey, maybe one day we’ll discover a species that has even greater moral capacities than we do as a result of their special physiology. (Likely to come from another planet, if at all)

I’m talking about morals as in moral epistemology, questions about how we come to know moral values, not good and bad intentions or moral ontology, questions about the reality of moral values

Right from Wrong is a matter of math: Either behaviors add to the volume of desirable history in the universe or else it adds to the volume of detestable history that we can observe.

“Yes, rape is wrong, I believe that and I’m sure you do, thus we can differentiate between good and evil so IMHO evolution can’t be the answer because different species evolve at different rates, and if evolution was the answer all land animals should all evolve equally and all phytoplankton, zoo-plankton and cetaceans should evolve equally because we/they are all exposed to the same elements. That is not true which suggests to me there is a bigger purpose.”

This statement betrays in you a subtle lack of understanding in what evolution is theorized to be capable of. Similar to how I have been trying to make plain my inability to understand certain conclusions @Hypocrisy_Central has come to. Evolution would never suggest that everything would grow homogenously.

Actually, the multitude of willy-nilly courses evolution happens upon over time speaks to me more about the lack of purposeful control in the universe. It serves as evidence for me that there just isn’t any kind of one true answer to anything. Humanity’s approach to doing things right simply will never come to an end. There are infinite possibilities and perfection is not realistic… That is, there is no perfect ideal God who judges us for our ability to come close to perfection. There is exactly only the chaos and freedom to do whatever seems like the right thing at the time. There is no guarantee of utopia. This seems really clear to me.

@KaY_Jelly said: Which then makes me also wonder why do we not treat each other equally? Or to answer your second comment again, why is it that “our psychological make up changes the kinds of decisions that tend to come out of our brains’ storms” which just happens to be IMHO so much like that of the Christian God? Again more reason why I believe that humanity is made in the image of Him.

I see what you’re after here and I bet you can see how I might respond to it. You’re speaking of an ideal which the average good of humanity seems to hint towards.

Think of it this way.. what is the ideal shape of a mountain? What is the ideal shape of a lake? What is the ideal shape of a planet’s orbit around a star? What is the ideal shape of a galaxy? Now, what is the ideal behavior for a human in a 70 year lifespan?

There are no REAL rules about what constitutes appropriate behavior. – This is evidenced, I would say, by the fact that we simply aren’t born with a manual.

In a universe of infinite capabilities, you just do what you have to in your particular corner of the galaxy/solar system/planet/continent/country/society/community/office/table given your unique physiological make-up. (eg. if you are a rabid wolf at that table you’ll behave differently than if you are a body building world champion who just got back from a workout or a retired ballerina who just came home from a funeral)

“it depends” is the best answer.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@ninjacolin Scientific evidence is the best kind of evidence we have ever heard of. It’s the most dependable.
You believe in science because scientist said it was valid, and you chose to be believe in it. A lot of science, and I do not discount science as a whole, a lot of it proves the existence of God, is ideals and conjecture one cannot truly prove anymore than God; more liking a mirage. This is where you come back and say there was this experiment, or that measurement taken etc, to prove what they scientist say is correct. Like a mirage it is an invisible condition created by heat that makes it appear as if water is on the horizon, but it doesn’t work in every situation. When you are looking at one you have no Ideal who high the phenomenon goes or really how wide, where it stops, maybe not where it starts. Looking out in the heavens at what one thinks is a black hole, if there was something between here and the alleged black hole distorting the signal, view, transmission, or whatever as the heat here on Earth giving an illusion of distant water, there might not be a black hole at all. No one has ever probed it with a satellite, sent a manned ship into one, or even got near enough to see what it is they were thinking. I could build a giant paper mache Stonehenge like structure. If you could never get to it physically you would never know you were looking at paper mache over a pine armature. If someone told you it was stone without having the benefit of examination other than a telescope and you wanted to believe them, you will.

The bible lacks a guarantee of authorship.
That could go for a lot of things. Just because something was found to say this and that, and that a certain person wrote it, unless it was in the hands and under watch by someone credible from the time of its creation no one can say the person who was said to write it actually did.

ah! so you’re just in it for selfish purposes, huh?
Do I look like an atheist? :-) If I were in it for selfish purposes I would not be trying to serve or honor anyone but myself. I would be doing goodness because I want the praises of men to tell me how good, honest and noble I was. I would not bother to try to warn you, I would let you continue on in your iniquity caring not what God said, or about your eternal soul. If you were building a fence and you had all the wood, saws, nails but no hammer and I tried to hand you a hammer, but you would not open your fist to receive it. I was not selfish, I offered, you just rejected it.

I mean, you can do all you can but ultimately he’s the one who’s gotta be understood. And he seems to have a lot of trouble being understood. I mean, he’s either going to make himself known through credible sources or he’s not.
He is not hard to find for those who seek Him. If you were seeking out radio waves at 250kHz, 275GHz was around you all the time, you just wasn’t seeking it or had the method to detect it. Even if God decided to show up and show out an have all the lakes and rivers dry up, you would not believe. You would wait until the scientist came up with some scientifically logical reason, even if they could not prove it, to explain what happened. Even if God caused all autos to start at 3pm in the morning you would not believe, you would wait for the scientist to tell you it was some electromagnetic anomaly, even if they could not say what or how; you would not believe it was God.

Assuming your God were real.. I think this is what I’ve been saying for a few posts now, actually.. I think I’d get twice the heaven you get!!
If you thought that, then why are you not a more forceful believer than I? If I did everything a boss told me to do, and I was paid well. If you were going to be paid even more would that make you want to do as the boss said more? That is what you would do on your earthly job isn’t it? Or they will pay those who break the rules or ignore them more than those who closely follow company policy? If you were going to get twice the heaven you should more be on board with what He says.

I doubt your god would throw me in a lake of fire for not being ABLE to believe in him. Can you imagine that?
It is not because you are unable to believe, everyone is able, people will end up there because they chose not to believe when they had the capacity, ability and opportunity to do so while alive in their mortal body but didn’t. I don’t have to imagine that, I know that is the shock many will get when life leaves their body.

I’m sure even you wouldn’t worship him if he was gonna go about punishing people who were perfectly good and normal and thoughtful and interested in goodness but who simply never heard a myth worth believing was anything more than a myth!
He is not going to punish anyone for not believing in a myth, but if He were a myth then He could punish no one anyhow. He will judge and punish those who did not believe. Since no one but Christ was perfect in goodness, etc, everyone else fell short. All sin is punishable by death, God has no ”sinometer”; lying is the same as murder, the only way to get an acquittal is the blood of Christ. The Bible said it is better if a person never heard of the Word than to hear it and reject it; so you have heard it…….

@Hypocrisy_Central a question for you!! – Are you afraid of any other God’s alleged punishments? Have you made your peace with every other God out there just in case they were real? If not, then why not?
If there were another God, then I would have to consider that. Those other gods, I don’t have to consider because some men, people, etc, carved them out of wood, stone, or metal and bestowed powers on them that are not there. How can something mad by the hands of man be God? If a man creates it then it is has no unearthly powers. I know what those gods look like because men created them in a certain image. No one has seen God that is why you never seen His image.

glacial's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “How can something mad by the hands of man be God? If a man creates it then it is has no unearthly powers.”

Exactly.

“I know what those gods look like because men created them in a certain image. No one has seen God that is why you never seen His image.”

We made him in our image. And we see his image all the time, in sculpture and in paintings, in churches and monuments, even in children’s books.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@glacial We made him in our image.
Then you go back to your first comment I agree with, a carved image with no power. That would be a powerless god, because that is the only god people will recognize. The one true God no one has seen, less we being made in His image, but that was more spiritually than actual physical attributes.

glacial's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Your insistence on deliberately misunderstanding me on the “small G god” is unimpressive. We’ve been here before; it’s boring, and it puts an end to all conversation.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ You come from your perspective of God being man-made, myth, fable etc, I can’t concur. That would be like going along with you if you believed the force we call gravity that holds things on this planet was due to the dirt sucking everything and suction help us here. If you want to disrespect God by equating Him as equal to some statue god, I guess that is something we won’t speak on. No love lost…......

glacial's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “No love lost…......”

Right back atcha.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@ninjacolin “None of this proves or disproves God’s existence as far as I can tell.”

You are correct! And I never said a thing about trying to prove the existence of God, or not trying to prove his existence. That also reminds me so I’d like to add that atheism also does not prove or disprove God.

In regards to Occam’s razor, please read this question which gives a much more thorough explanation than I ever could on Is God Simple?

“You do see more moral behavior in animals that approach our level of intelligence. Things like fairness and justice and mourning and reciprocity.”

“in the absence of God, objective moral values and duties do not exist, minimalists cannot be excluded from the ideal committee, and so the committee will fail to agree that we have any moral obligations to do anything. In other words, to borrow Dostoyevsky’s memorable phrase, all things will be permitted.”
~Dr. William Lane Craig

“Evolution would never suggest that everything would grow homogenously.”

That is not quite what I was suggesting. I mean to suggest that maybe we would of all evolved equally if there was no God but we didn’t because according to evolution we evolved from being Sahelanthropus tchadensis into being Homo sapiens. And since we do not evolve equally I was just suggesting that there may be a bigger purpose. I suppose we could just agree to disagree :)

“Now, what is the ideal behavior for a human in a 70 year lifespan?”

I will just refer back to my previous answer of, all things will be permitted.

“This is evidenced, I would say, by the fact that we simply aren’t born with a manual.”

The burden of proof is on you then, because maybe we do not have an actual manual in our hand so we must not be born with a manual but I do believe that we are “born” with a manual (our parents), be it theism, atheism, nihilism, Buddhism, creationism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Zoroastrianism,, Shintoism, Sikhism, agnosticism, naturalism, Scientology, Judaism, Islam. Taoism, who knows what I forgot, otherwise without a “manual” we would not be having this conversation.

“There are no REAL rules about what constitutes appropriate behavior.”

OK. So then you don’t oppose to this nonsense!

We can’t see the forest for the trees. O_o

ETpro's avatar

@KaY_Jelly I don’t wish to derail your fun with @ninjacolin but your appeal to Dr. Craig’s claim that all moral law proceeds from Yahweh leaves me wondering how so many cultures throughout human history who had no knowledge of the Abrahamic God and worshiped a god or gods that had nothing to do with his origin in El came up with the conclusions that one should not kill or steal or lie or covet.

ninjacolin's avatar

@KaY_Jelly said: “maybe we do not have an actual manual in our hand so we must not be born with a manual but I do believe that we are “born” with a manual (our parents), be it theism, atheism…”

None of us were born with a manual. Not us, not our parents, not our parents parents.. Neither were any of the founders of theism, atheism, nihilism, Buddhism, creationism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Zoroastrianism,, Shintoism, Sikhism, agnosticism, naturalism, Scientology, Judaism, Islam, or Taoism or who knows what I forgot!

All of this stuff was made up out of thin air based solely on historical experience, logic, and creativty. Just like your last meal!

Babies aren’t born knowing much and they certainly don’t become rocket scientists without a lot of very VERY specific experience being crammed into their brains. Even when they do become rocket scientists, they don’t somehow stop coming up with brand new high level material either! People learn from experience and then they learn new things born out of the complexity of their complex memories. That’s why technology is so far advanced these days compared to last year (never mind a thousand years ago!)

We get smarter, we compound information, we get better and better at applying ideas and technology. And it all starts from learning how to kick your leg while spinning in a womb. You learn how to teach your kids.. then your kids learn how to teach their kids better than you did..

Seems easy to imagine how compounding experiences grew into religions and governments and other institutions. I mean, that is what we can observe has happened, after all.

All things are permitted. The world is chaos. Organized Society with all it’s love and care and attempts to right wrongs and provide justice and equality and even it’s population of wrong doers all of it is the result of that chaos. Sometimes, the world creates dark ages in human history spanning hundreds of years! Sometimes it creates world-wide majorities of peace and prosperity, it just does whatever it wants and THANKFULLY it hasn’t wiped us out as yet. Why hasn’t it?

Now you can answer that question in at least 2 ways: 1) You can make up an answer that others may or may never be able to verify the accuracy of while they are alive (eg. Because a cosmic tornado made out of love holds the universe in balance on the back of 6 giant heart shaped sea turtles!) or 2) You can give a historical-experience-based, non-assumptive answer that starts with: “Based on what can be observed..”

Guess which option I favor…

..

go on guess, I’ll wait!

..
..
..

WRONG, but good try.. I favor #2.

Why hasn’t the world been wiped out by now? The same reason it hasn’t developed a cure for cancer: Chance.

Mathematically speaking, there seems to be chance that either of these things could happen. However, there is only one possibility at any given time and neither earth-eradication nor a cancer-cure-all has become likely enough in the universe.

It’s not to assume that either isn’t possible (We don’t really know one way or the other) but it’s not to assume that either is imminent either. We just don’t know!

I could lie to you and say: “Well, the fact is the world will end in 2 minutes.” And hey, maybe that sentence will one day be true but it certainly isn’t something that anyone can verify to be true at the time of this writing.

@KaY_Jelly said: “in the absence of God, objective moral values and duties do not exist, minimalists cannot be excluded from the ideal committee, and so the committee will fail to agree that we have any moral obligations to do anything. In other words, to borrow Dostoyevsky’s memorable phrase, all things will be permitted.” ~Dr. William Lane Craig

You would have to “lie” (as above) to say that “Objective moral values” exist at all. It most certainly can NOT be observed that there exists such a thing as “objective moral values” besides my own, of course, which are different than yours, which are different than Mr. Peter Singer’s although probably not in all ways.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@ninjacolin we could go with this “debate” forever. :/

BUT I have a bag of chips and a movie waiting for me, and less hours in a day after this one is over.

I see things in your comment I want to go over with you but unfortunately I have to leave this behind now.

I apologize to leave you hanging but when I get time to put more effort into an answer, I’ll try to come back and do that, until then, happy “debating”.

@ETpro Good catch. It makes me wonder too. Which to me only further supports Dr. Craigs claim that a creator made us that way.

ETpro's avatar

@KaY_Jelly Since the Middle Paleolithic era there have been so many gods theorized that I am pretty sure we are either talking about none of the above being the answer, or all of the above. I have no idea which.

ninjacolin's avatar

Writing is work. :)
I like it though. Thanks for the “conversation,” i’m very interested in your opinion!
haha, it’s only a debate when we agree it is!

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@ETpro I respect that. :) And let me be honest here, I’m not really saying my idea is correct, but for me it works and it seems rational, like your idea works for you and is rational for you.

@ninjacolin It’s not only the imagination but in the explanations and understanding and theorizing our human brains come up with that I like because the different levels of each fascinates me. I also like to go beyond and question everything. But I can also relate to you a little because once I was once an atheist too. ;)

Your opinions also matter to me! Thanks you.

I’ve already spent too much time on this comment alone..yikes!

Hope you have a good day!

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