What do you think about New Jersey (USA) Governor Chris Christie signing into law a ban on religious conversion therapy for minors?

I’m not a huge fan of his but I’ll say this: it’s really a fascinating society we live in where a politician has to intervene in provision of medical/mental care. Technically speaking, the discipline in charge of medical/mental care should be in charge of such matters. The APA, if I remember correctly, did say it is against this kind of therapy. In the end, banning such things will not make them go away. I suppose the thing for some might be the ‘minors’ part as they don’t have rights, if their parents feel they can subject them to this.

The therapy doesn’t work, but it may be more important to defend the first amendment rights of bigots than to defend the gullible from falling for the nonsense they preach.

Best thing I’ve heard for a long time. Key word ‘minors’.

It is strictly a political move, and Christie needs to avoid those. He is already the front runner, and this kind of step can divide a solid base.

@ETpro What about the rights of the minors not to be subjected to mental—and sometimes physical—torture for something they have no control over?

@filmfann To be honest, his willingness to do things that might divide his base is the source of what grudging respect I have for Christie.

Chris Christie will never be president. You can disagree and argue that point all you want. It’ll never happen.

If evidence suggests that it is not only pointless, but potentially harmful to perform conversion therapy, but highly-motivated parents will got to anybody to “cure” their child, then the state may have the duty to intervene to prevent a parent from doing a harmful thing to a child.

The legislature and the Governor have a duty to ban quackery performed on anyone but especially on those who cannot legally protect themselves from harm because of their age.

Thus, I see it as the legislature and Governor Christie performing their highest obligation to the defenseless in the State of New Jersey.

Can they bring in a ban on homeopathy next? Faith healing? Acupuncture?

I think “ban” is the wrong word, but I would like to see it become easier to prosecute parents who cause harm to their children subjecting them to “alternative medicine”.

@seek_kolinahr I think that stuff, if useless, is at least not harmful. And if the parents take a child to a faith healer instead of a doctor when sick, then the state steps in at that point.

The vast majority of the time, such cases are dismissed. The parents are seen as having a right to pray away a serious condition. Hell, just recently a couple was determined to be TRIED for murder, after killing their SECOND child due to negligence. And who knows how the trial will go, all “my rights” this and “first amendment” that. They’ll never get a conviction.

Wow that’s really scary.

As a NJ resident who isn’t particularly fond of the current Governor, I am glad that he signed it. My father underwent “conversion therapy” in the 1950s when homosexuality was still a mental illness in the literature, after having been unacceptable to his mother his entire life. He was miserable before and after the process, and the whole family was miserable. The issue of protecting a child from being forced through this is because of the message it teaches them that they are no good because of their inherent nature. Adults who are not happy with being homosexual are still able to electively pursue this treatment.

On the sub-topic of parents declining medical care for religious reasons, this is a Philadelphia couple who are being charged with murder for refusing medical care for their child – while on probation for the death of their daughter in the same way.

On the sub-topic: my sister, who is a nurse, once told me that some of the parents who refuse treatment for religious reasons are glad when the court invervenes and forces treatment, because their child is saved and their hands are clean with God. She was not implying this is true in most cases but she definitely felt she had witnessed sighs of relief at one time or another.

@SavoirFaire Mental and physical abuse of children are already illegal in their own right, and should certainly be punished as the crimes they are.

Does anyone remember the story of the boy who went to have a growth removed from his mouth, and was diagnosed with cancer? He refused chemo, and insisted on alternative treatment and his doctors and the state had fits. Now here he is, CANCER FREE TEN YEARS LATER. http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=25601811

Huh. Imagine that. (I know a lot of people just like him)

Was the alternative treatment prayer and sugar water?

@snowberry When my dad was in the Navy, he was assigned for a time to security for the Norfolk Naval Hospital in Portsmouth. A young sailor came in complaining of abdominal pains. They did exploratory surgery and found a fully metastasized aggressive colon cancer had spread all through his system. That was inoperable then and still would be today. So to leave the poor kid in peace for what little time they thought he had, they just sewed him back up and told him to come back 5 years later for a checkup. No prayer. No woo-woo therapies. But he did just what they requested. Came back 5 years later cancer free.

@Seek_Kolinahr and @ETpro You could do the research and read the backstory for yourself. Or make it up. Whichever suits.

@snowberry There is nothing there that even says that any alternative therapy was used? Where did you get that? To me, he sounds a lot more like the sailor I mentioned above.

I wonder if in the Jensen case if it was a misdiagnosis? It could have been that, or it could have been the body got rid of the cancer. I don’t know Mormons to be against medical treatment. Is that what the parents used to refuse treatment? Religious reasons?

I was living in Utah at the time. It was on the news every single night for a while, and it was probably national news also. He saw an alternative doctor. If you look, you’ll find the truth in old news accounts. It is there, somewhere, but I’ll not bother to do the homework for you. If you want to know, you will.

I tried to google a little, but it doesn’t come right up for me. I have no problem believing the doctors could have been wrong though. Certain diseases it is insane to pass on modern medicine. Look at the Apple guy Steve Jobs, he had operable pancreatic cancer from what I remember and he didn’t do the operation, he chose to do alternative things. It was a gift that his was caught early and able to be removed, that almost never happens, and he passed on the opportunity.

Know what they call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

@ETpro Well, exactly. Mental and physical abuse are criminal. So if the process in question is mentally and/or physically abusive—and it is—then it makes perfect sense to criminalize it. Thus why I disagree that the First Amendment rights of the bigots outweigh the rights of their victims in this case. It’s typically the parents who are the gullible ones, after all, not the minors who get tortured for their sexual orientation. And the bigots don’t lose the right to claim that homosexuality is wrong or curable just because they aren’t allowed to practice conversion therapy.

@snowberry The person making the claim bears the burden of proof and holds responsibility for presenting evidence. You saying “this happened, believe me!” and then saying “I refuse to give any evidence or explanation of how it happened—but still believe me!” is flatly irrational. This is a discussion site. It was perfectly reasonable for @Seek_Kolinahr and @ETpro to request further information, not least because you took on the responsibility by entering the discussion and bringing up the issue.

In any case, it is well known that spontaneous remission can happen. Thus a single case of a person who refused treatment and survived is not particularly impressive. This is especially true given that spontaneous remission is more likely in cases of small tumors (which Ewing’s sarcoma—the form of cancer with which Jensen was diagnosed—happens to have been).

Moreover, the tumor was removed early on. That’s how the cancer diagnosis came about in the first place, after all: Jensen’s parents brought him to an oral surgeon to have a growth on his tongue removed. It was only chemotherapy that his parents refused, and that was because they did not believe the diagnosis of Ewing’s sarcoma was accurate. Chemotherapy would only have been needed if the cancer had spread at all, so Jensen being cancer-free after ten years really is not surprising at all given that the tumor might have been removed before it had an opportunity to propagate.

One of the interesting things about Jensen’s case is the sheer inconsistency of it all. His parents originally refused chemotherapy because they didn’t believe he had cancer. But then they took him to a doctor who practiced alternative medicine despite their official claims that he wasn’t sick. In the end, it just sounds like a couple of people in serious denial who happened to get lucky.

@Seek_Kolinahr I love Tim Minchin as much as the next person, but that line has never sat right with me. Maybe it’s true in Australia that alternative medicine that works is called medicine, but it’s certainly not true in the United States. We have to remember, after all, that “alternative medicine” is a contested term. For many, the “alternative” in “alternative medicine” means alternatives to pharmaceuticals. In this regard, yoga is alternative medicine. Probiotics are alternative medicine. Diet and exercise are alternative medicine.

Groups like the AMA, however, have insisted on using the term to mean anything that is not evidence-based medicine—and by doing so, they have co-opted the so-called skeptical movement into what is ultimately an anti-science agenda (since the AMA actively opposes most scientific study of non-pharmaceutical and non-surgical approaches to illness and injury). Their success has come from pointing out the quackery of homeopathy and the like, and then painting nearly all alternatives to surgery and pharmaceuticals with the same brush.

This is compounded by the fact that some practitioners of alternative medicine have been hesitant to call out the frauds among them for fear of dividing an already beleaguered community. Moreover, many have been careless with their words when defending things like chiropractic. In that specific case, for instance, they fail to properly separate the good scientific evidence that it can be used to treat back pain from the bad theories and exaggerated claims propounded by its founder. And thus we are left with the false dichotomy of “a pill for everything” and “no pills at all.”

@SavoirFaire – if we leave the internet behind, and look at real life, the quote makes sense.

I haven’t had a ton of medical care in my life, being an uninsured American, but I have had doctors recommend non-pharmaceutical solutions. A change of diet for a bum gallbladder, stretching exercises for carpal tunnel, hot tea for a sore throat.

I’ve never had a doctor recommend a 50x dilution of pulsatilla (so dilute there is literally 0% “active” ingredient) treat the common cold, like naturopath physicians will. I’ve also never heard a physician recommend chiropractic care to treat asthma.

@Seek_Kolinahr That’s not a response to anything I said, not least because it seems to ignore the point I actually made. I said nothing in defense of homeopathy—which is complete bunk—and noted only that chiropractic care can sometimes relieve back pain—which has nothing to do with asthma (and, in fact, I specifically criticized claims that chiropractic care can do anything like that).

Nor is this an “internet thing.” This is based on real life. I worked in a hospital for five years. My mother has been a nurse for nearly 40 years. We worked with people who wanted a pill for everything, even when there was already a perfectly workable treatment. I’ve also had my personal physician recommend non-pharmaceutical treatments, but a few local physicians ≠ the entire AMA. And local doctors typically go along with the organization, even when they disagree on various details. In most cases, there’s nothing terrible about this. But sometimes, it’s not really for the best.

So here’s the point again: there is quite a bit of alternative medicine that works, so long as we are understanding “alternative medicine” to mean “non-pharmaceutical medicine.” But if we define it as quackery from the beginning, we’re just left begging the question. The historical fact is that the latter attitude has led to a refusal in some cases to even consider alternative approaches—even if they might lead to pharmaceuticals! Imagine if that had been the predominant attitude before penicillin was discovered. “Orange mold? Get out of here, you quack!”

I have no doubt that the vast majority of traditional medicine is bunk. I fully support evidence-based approaches to medicine in all ways. But that means submitting everything to rigorous testing and not just dismissing it on the grounds that it’s weird. In the case of homeopathy, there are good a priori reasons for knowing it can’t work. There are also good a priori reasons for thinking chiropractic cannot do everything it was originally claimed to do. But had we never submitted it to testing, we wouldn’t know the few things it can do (which leads to a split between those who falsely claim it can’t do anything and those who falsely claim it can do everything—a lose-lose scenario if I ever saw one). So it seems to me that anyone who is truly interested in “leaving the internet behind” on this has to be open to having a nuanced discussion rather than quoting witticisms.

Some cancer will spontaneously regress without any treatment whatsoever. But since everyone is afraid of dying a horrible protracted death from cancer, we all lose our mind if we think there’s even the possibility of cancer. I’m a practicing doctor (but not an oncologist), and every time I suspect cancer in one of my patients, I’m like Costello when he comes face to face with the mummy and I say “Heeeeyyy Abbot!” (with Abbot being the oncologist of course). Because we typically treat cancer very aggressively, we really have no clue how often cancer will spontaneously regress. And I’m pretty sure no sane person will sign up for that experiment.
So yes anyone can cherry pick when a faith-healer miraculously cures cancer, because he will never disclose just how many die with horrible metastatic caner. But I’m willing to bet more people die in his care than with an oncologist.

Pandering. Nothing else.

A transparent ploy by a conservative, Presidentially ambitious politician, to get votes from a normally liberal gay constituency.

Few “moderate” Republicans actually believe that conversion therapy is anything but voodoo bullshit anyhow. No Republican with a brain (admittedly in short supply these days) is going to risk seats in the Legislature, and maybe the White House, by quibbling over the lives of gay people.

Sorry for the snarky comments. Not saying it’s OK, but I do get just a little testy when I hear the constant smears against alternative health, the stupid comments, etc. I’ve said this before, but If I were depending on conventional doctors to keep me healthy, I’d have been cut up with several cesarean sections, had a hysterectomy, and likely received multiple other surgeries as well as numerous prescriptions that compromised my health, and on and on. I’ve chosen another path, and I’m glad I did, but that’s a discussion for another post.

If I am ever diagnosed with cancer, I’ll never go to a conventional doctor for treatment.

http://www.examiner.com/article/parker-jensen-cancer-free-and-his-was-taken-from-his-parents-is-getting-married

“Parker Jensen grew up fast, no young child should be forced to face a judge on his own behalf and for his parents

The Jensens still get calls from families facing similar situations, and they are still glad to help. “I haven’t been to the hospital since ten years ago. Just make sure and do your research on alternative therapies and second and third opinions do matter and are your right.”

Another one. http://greensmoothiegirl.com/2012/03/01/what-would-you-do-if-your-child-got-cancer-part-2-of-3/

@tinyfaery everything politicians do amounts to pandering. Nothing new there.
@snowberry western medicine is pretty nuts when it comes to c sections and hysterectomies. I don’t have a good answer why. I definitely think too many are performed. Women’s medicine especially when you get beyond text book pregnancy and delivery gets pretty deficient in western medicine. I’ve known many women who’ve turned yo alternative care with improved results.
Cancer care is one of its strengths though. The research is so in depth I don’t think alternative care can hold a candle to it.

@drhat77 I know why. When I was having kids, the cesarean rate in the US was at 25%. Now the national average is just below 33%. That’s a huge increase.

One reason could be called “follow the money”. Find out who stands to make the most money, and you have a huge part of the answer. But there are many other reasons as well. When you grow up hearing horror stories of childbirth, some women refuse to even consider going into labor. I have met a few.

Here’s a run down of a few other reasons. http://www.childbirthconnection.org/article.asp?ck=10456

The cancer industry is big money. And it bankrupts families while it often only extends life by a few weeks or months. I have seen it over and over and over again. On the other hand, I know many people who were told they had a very short time to live, and so they went to a holistic doctor such as I am seeing and they got/are getting well. It’s a normal thing in my world.

Conventional medical people say they would have gotten better anyway without the alternative treatment. That’s a bit arrogant, but whatever.

I suppose from your name here that you are an MD. I have no desire to offend you, but I’ve lived it on both sides. My mother was sick when I was born, and she spent her days going from one doctor to another for 15 or so years (before that they always insisted it was in her imagination, and that she needed a psychiatrist). Then one day she finally had a diagnosis, so she wasn’t crazy anymore (yay) but that didn’t really help any.

I have since learned that had she not been brainwashed against alternative medicine, she might have lived a healthy and productive life. I have known several people with her disease, and they have been cured. Instead Mom lived out her life in excruciating pain, going from one doctor to the next, daily taking hands full of pills with horrible side effects until she died. In spite of the dire prediction of death, it took her several more decades to actually die. Instead we just talked about it a lot. Pretty sick sounding, I know, but it’s true.

@snow berry that’s a very sad story about your mom.
What you mentioned about people suffering through cancer care only to die a few weeks later has been recognized, and now cancer teams integrate with hospice. If, after discussing with patients their priorities, aggressive care will be unlikely to help them, they usually go into hospice to manage their symptoms until they die. It seems to have reduced the sort of things you’ve pointed out.

@drhat77 Yes, a friend of mine was in end stage cancer. They wanted to offer him hospice. He said no thanks, and is now on the mend, thanks to my wonderful group of alternative doctors. Their office is full of people like this.

Regarding my mom, I only skimmed the surface for you. It should be no surprise to you that she hated doctors with a passion, and thought even less of psychologists.

I could tell you of many other nightmare stories- stories of people that I know well- and who are chained to a conventional medical system that offers nothing but misery until death.

You are right. It is very very sad, and what’s even sadder is when people (especially conventional doctors) insist that all alternative medical people are quacks, and are fleecing the people. The truth is the quacks are the idiot MD’s who treat(ed )my mother and my friends and assure them that this pill or that pill or some treatment will help, and it never does, and it never will help them, let alone get them better.

Because alternative medicine is unregulated there are a lot of “healers” ready to fleece the desperate (who are admittedly left in desperation due to western medicines deficiencies). But if alternative medicine gets a patient results that they approve of I’m all for it. Just caveat emperor.

@drhat77 Unfortunately, it’s buyer beware, whether you’re using conventional medicine or alternative, regulations be damned. As I have mentioned before, I’ve been fleeced by many an MD (board certified top of the line regulated ones no less) promising me all sorts of help I never got, and actually am the worse for it. Actually I have several medical problems CAUSED this way, which my alternative doctor is helping me to resolve.

I always, always thoroughly vet my doctors before I work with them.

There are recourse, like contacting the state medical board if you feel your doctor is a crook. The state may investigate.
autocorrect changed emptor to emperor hillarious

@drhat77 They are so numerous, they fill up the phone book (as I said, these were “top of the line” conventional doctors). They did what they are good at, and from a conventional medical point of view, their actions were appropriate. From their point of view, I’m “better”. But they don’t have to live with the consequences.

I am “better” to simply find a good alternative doctor and avoid the crap now and in the future.

And from her board certified doctors’ points of view, my mother was “better”. She had to search long and hard to find anyone who would even diagnose her, let alone prescribe anything at all. Was her life any better? Sort of. She did have a diagnosis, and that got the docs off her back about being mentally ill.

__what a waste__

Hmm. I’m sorry that sounds horrendous.