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ETpro's avatar

What happens to the God of the Gaps when there are no more gaps?

Asked by ETpro (34605points) September 22nd, 2013

Consider the jobs everyone knew God must handle back when the world’s great religions; Hinduism, the Abrahamic faiths, and Buddhism were being formulated. God made weather. Lightning bolts were expressions of his anger. He made the flat earth, and held up the giant bowl holding the sea it floated in. He kept the 7 domes of the heavens in suspension around the Earth and moved the Sun, Moon, planets and stars in their appointed rounds. He made the crops to grow in their appointed seasons and gave each earthly creature its unique nature.

Then Galileo and Copernicus showed that the Earth was not the center of the Universe or even the solar system. So God got it wrong in Genesis. But he still made the earth and planets and stars revolve; they just went around the Sun and not the Earth. That held untill Sir Isaac Newton worked out the Laws of gravity, and showed that no divine hand was required to move the heavenly bodies, they moved on paths that could be predicted with remarkable precision once one understood gravitational and centrifugal forces and Newtonian physics.

Of course, God was still responsible for all the diversity of life on Earth. Everyone knew the complexity we see in living things implied a designer. Something as marvelous as an eagle’s eye surely couldn’t have just happened by chance. They knew, that is, until Charles Darwin came along and demonstrated the mountain of evidence showing that natural selection, driving evolution, and not a heavenly designer, produced all the complexity here today.

So many gaps gone, but one remained. J. S. Haldane (physiologist and father of J. B. S. Haldane) wrote in 1932: “What intelligible account can the mechanistic theory of life give of the …recovery from disease and injuries? Simply none at all, except that these phenomena are so complex and strange that as yet we cannot understand them. It is exactly the same with the closely related phenomena of reproduction. We cannot by any stretch of the imagination conceive a delicate and complex mechanism which is capable, like a living organism, of reproducing itself indefinitely often.”

As Carl Sagan wrote in The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark: “Until the middle twentieth century, there had been a strong belief among theologians, philosophers and many biologists—that life was not “reducible” to the laws of physics and chemistry, that there was a “vital force,” an “entelechy,” a tao, a mana that made living things go. It “animated” life. It was impossible to see how mere atoms and molecules could account for the intricacy and elegance, the fitting of form to function, of a living thing. The world’s religions were invoked: God or the gods breathed life, soul-stuff, into inanimate matter. The eighteenth-century chemist Joseph Priestley tried to find the “vital force.” He weighed a mouse before and just after it died. If there is soul-stuff, evidently it weighs nothing—that is, it is not made of matter.”

It was not until the 1950s and 60s with the advances in the study of DNA and discovery of the genetic code that we really understood how inanimate, subatomic particles could organize themselves into atoms, and atoms into molecules, molecules into complex chemicals the like of the nucleic acids that are the stuff of life; and thus inanimate matter indeed could take on life and self replication without any entelechy breathed into it by God.

As to running the day to day affairs of man, we now know that effect predictably follows cause. There is no apparent hand of God reaching invisibly down from the sky to overrule the laws of the natural universe. We can run scientific studies on the efficacy of prayer, and when conducted in controlled, double-blind fashion, prayer either has no correlation to real-world outcomes, or a slightly negative correlation. About the only gap left is creating the Universe, then watching it run its course much like a watchmaker sitting back and admiring his finest timepiece without ever again touching it.

What if science proves that the Universe itself has been here in varying forms eternally. Then there is no gap left that requires a creator. What happens to God when all the gaps are filled? I think there are roles that belief in a supreme being can play without the believer having to reject scientific fact. What are such roles? When all the gaps are gone, and no god or gods are required to explain them, will it still be worthwhile to believe in a supreme deity?

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79 Answers

ragingloli's avatar

They will invent gaps for him to fit into, or pretend that the gaps that have been closed are still open.
I mean, we know that evolution happened and is happening and we know that the universe is about 14 billion years old, yet there are still nutters out there who believe that humans were formed from mud along with the Universe and the Earth 6000 years ago.

drhat77's avatar

I think right before Einstein physical scientists were pretty certain they had fully catalogued the rules of the universe, and they were bemoaning there was nothing left to study. In retroscpect a failure of imagination on their part.
I think a society that doesn’t have some potentially measurable process that still mystifies them just isn’t trying hard enough.
I think the last gap you’d need to fill is some sort of equation that would fine tune how human beings should act in a suffeciently compasionate manner, and that all of society was adhering to it. Then maybe you can dust off you hands and call your work done.

dxs's avatar

I asked a Catholic person about this once, and this is his perspective:
He explained how the bible, though God’s Word, was still written for the people of the time. It was written to help and guide during specific eras and crises such as the enslavement of the Israelites in Egypt. With this, God also made the Word relatable to them. He did not reveal undiscovered science to them because scientific progression is part of his plan.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

”...we now know that effect predictably follows cause….”

“What if science proves that the Universe itself has been here in varying forms eternally.”
_________

Can’t have it both ways.

ragingloli's avatar

@dxs
does not explain the things that the book gets wrong.
Like the flat earth, the solid skydome, the origin of humanity, or earth being the centre of the solar system.

drhat77's avatar

@ragingloli is all that in the bible? or is it post-peter stuff?

ragingloli's avatar

It is all at the beginning.

bea2345's avatar

There are always gaps because when we have solved a problem, we invariably find other problems. I don’t know if man will ever know everything in this life but I do not want to be here when that happens, given that man is born to make mistakes.

drhat77's avatar

@ragingloli the origin of humanity and creation was in the bible, but I think flat earth and geo-centric universe came in like 1500 years ago. Even the pythagorans knew that the earth was round.

tinyfaery's avatar

Once you realize religion and god do not require logic you can stop asking these unanswerable questions.

ragingloli's avatar

@drhat77
the bible says the earth is rested on pillars and has 4 corners (not only is the earth flat according to the bible, it is also a quadrangle), and jesus could see all the kingdoms of the earth from a hill.
and as for geocentrism, the book clearly states that the earth is immovable, and furthermore in one story, the sun is stopped in the sky.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

I don’t recall any flat earth in the bible. When speaking of four corners of the earth, it’s metaphor for judgement day, not creation. It’s not at the beginning. It’s in revelation.

For anyone who can stomach the best Christian apologetic, try this. Yes, it’s over an hour long. But questions that have been asked since the beginning of history cannot quite be summed up in a fluther sound bite… nor should they be.

Or you can read the entire transcript here. About half way down, you’ll get to the Q&A, which is an extremely interesting apologetic that matches the biblical account of creation to what science actually teaches.

Wave it all away if you like. But don’t say you never got the chance to hear what the other side believes… And please understand, not all Christians believe this. They aren’t educated enough. But this is what the leading Christian scientists would prefer to educate them on.

I’m not claiming to believe it all. I’m not claiming it is faultless. I’m simply offering it to anyone who is truly interested in considering realistic biblical creation. You may not agree. But at least you’ll know.

Neodarwinian's avatar

” What happens to the God of the Gaps when there are no more gaps? ”

Rationalizations, justifications and just plain excuses.

( check answer above )

dxs's avatar

@ragingloli I specifically noted that it was not my perspective, but someone else’s.

Blondesjon's avatar

I think the real question here is, “Why does it matter?”

Neodarwinian's avatar

@Blondesjon

It doesn’t really matter except to believers. There lies the problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4fQA9mt-Mg

A partial explanation.

drhat77's avatar

@Neodarwinian I think there will always be gaps as long a scientific minds pry into the nature of the universe. There will always be finer resolution to delve into

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

It matters to Atheists because if they keep providing logic that suggests Christians are wrong, about many things, then they hope to loosen the conservative hold they have on politics, thereby promoting more progressive legislation in our government.

Neodarwinian's avatar

@drhat77

So? Why are you telling me? I did not ask the question. And gaps will there be and the religious will use rationalizations, justifications and excuses to plug them

glacial's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies So… knowledge is the province of the progressives? And conservatives are anti-knowledge? Even I don’t believe that.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

I’m unsure of how that relates to what I said.

But since you said “knowledge”, I’ll gamble that refers to my “school” comment. Would you deny that progressives would prefer schools taught only from a scientific perspective, rather than entertain notions of creationism in the classroom?

glacial's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies In a science classroom, yes, obviously. In a theology classroom, they can certainly discuss creationism.

Neodarwinian's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

” Would you deny that progressives would prefer schools taught only from a scientific perspective, rather than entertain notions of creationism in the classroom? ”

I would deny this is an issue of such a fine dichotomy. Any one wanting a good education for our children would want good science taught, especially in the science classroom. Creationism, if taught at all, needs to be taught in a social studies class. ( or some other proper classroom venue )

Imadethisupwithnoforethought's avatar

Um, so no matter scientific discoveries have happened, you have found more profound questions, and based on this, you believe you will actually eventually answer all of the questions?

Atheism. Like Scientology, but with less logic.

Neodarwinian's avatar

@Imadethisupwithnoforethought

” Um, so no matter scientific discoveries have happened, you have found more profound questions, and based on this, you believe you will actually eventually answer all of the questions? ”

( can’t figure what this statement is actually based on )

Um, no. Why would anyone want to answer all the questions as it is the question that drives us.

Religion, like nothing real and with no logic.

PS: Usernameapropos

ETpro's avatar

@ragingloli If it was just a few nutters, I wouldn’t concern myself with it. But a recent Gallup poll found that 46% of the US electorate holds young-earth, creationist beliefs. Several states have already changed their Science curriculum to teach Intelligent Design along with Evolution, and tell students that both are “just a theory.”

@drhat77 What sort of doctorate do you hold? Perhaps there were a few scientists back then that thought we’d written the last chapter, but we had no idea at that time what brought the Universe into being. We had no clue whether is was curved, flat or open; which meant we had no idea whether it would end in a big crunch or a big chill. We had not clue about how abiogenesis occurred, and we still don’t. And we knew we did not know all that and much more.

@dxs Your Catholic friend may not have been up on the latest church teaching, but the Catholic Church as well as most mainstream Protestant faiths are now largely reconciled with Science. Yes, the Pope didn’t get around to formally acknowledging that Galileo was right till 1992. When you are infallible, it takes a long time to admit you screwed up. But the Church now teaches that Genesis is an allegory, and Catholic theologians agree with science that the Universe is nearly 14 billion years old, that Earth is roughly 4.8 billion years old, that all life evolved from primordial single organisms, and that man is descended from a common ancestor of the great apes. The problem is that the fundamentalist religions are far outpacing the sane ones in growth.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Rubbish. The fact that currently, effect follows cause does not say that all things that currently exist of have ever existed had to have a cause. If it did, it would disprove the god you claim to believe in. It would also lead us into the infinite regress of who caused God, and who caused God’s cause…

@bea2345 I agree that there may always be unknowns. Like you, I do not know whether we will ever come to a complete understanding of this phenomenal Universe we are fortunate enough to inhabit. Humans are terribly fallible, but the scientific method is one tool we have developed that just goes on and on correcting human error. And if, some halcion day, we actually figure out what 42 means‘s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy, I think it will be long after I am gone. I don’t agree it would rob of of the sense of grandeur and wonder at all that is there, though. The more I learn about it, the more profound that sense of awe becomes.

@drhat77 Regarding the flat Earth, think again. There are a wealth of rabbinical writings that show that the Jews of 4500 years ago believed the Earth was flat and suspended on corners in a sea within 7 solid domes that carried the Sun, Moon, visible planets, stars and heaven. Sorry, but Pythagoras was apparently smarter than the God who informed the bronze age Jews how things worked. Of course, he was working almost 2,000 years after the early books of the Torah were set to print.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies The idea of a flat earth shows up throughout scripture. Christian apologetics just cherry pick to ignore the embarrassing in the scriptures and interpret the things they want in the best possible terms given our current knowledge of the state of things.

ETpro's avatar

”@”;http://www.fluther.com/164277/what-happens-to-the-god-of-the-gaps-when-there-are/#quip2804942Neodarwinian Excellent answer. Denial that the gaps are filled is underway full steam among fundamentalists of all three major branches of the Abrahamic religions.

@Blondesjon @Neodarwinian connected you to a great answer to your question. But I would add that I care because we live in a world where future economic success depends on science and technology and we have a well funded, determined and politically powerful bunch of fundamentalist Christians, Muslims and Jews all aching for a nuclear war so they get to go to heaven in glory. These fundamentalists have a growing influence in today’s world, a world in which the nuclear armageddon they yearn for will destroy all human life on earth in a prolonged nuclear winter.

@glacial Several states have already passed laws requiring creationism be taught in biology and science classes. Texas appears poised to follow suit, and with their buying power, they set many of the standards for school textbooks through the nation. The Republican religious right wrong are determined to warp real science and instead teach their beliefs. They are succeeding in doing just that.

@Imadethisupwithnoforethought You must work really hard at failing to understand what is being discussed. That’s a pretty amazing non-sequitur. It shows your profound lack of understanding of the scientific method. Nonetheless, thanks for chiming in. You have done a wonderful job of illustrating the challenge facing America if we want to remain a first-world nation in a technology driven economic world.

serenade's avatar

When you silence the mind and realize you are already God (or whatever name is preferred) dreaming this experience of existence through consciousness, then there are no gaps to recognize, because everything perceived as phenomenon is unreal. Until then, the mind will always create more gaps, since that is its nature.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Sorry ET, it is not Christian apologetics that cherry picks. Your link provides no scriptural reference from the Bible. It speaks of biblical “times”... but no scripture from the bible is referenced. The references point to the Midrash, the Talmud, and the Targum. Nothing about the bible in there.

Consider also, of the “cherry picked” scriptures that Atheists choose to preach flat earth biblical heresy, they are all from dreams or visions. And yes, I include Jesus in the desert with Satan as a vision. You’d have one too after fasting for forty days in the wilderness.

Nowhere is there a reference to a real world flat earth view.

And the Atheist cherry picking is actually worse than it seems on the surface. Very hypocritical actually. It’s okay for an Atheist to use the language of appearance and say “the sun rises and sets”, but no one suggests they mean the sun is actually doing the rising and setting around the earth.

When the bible says that angels are standing at the four corners of the earth, that’s a simple reference to the four cardinal directions of NSEW.

When Isaiah 40:22 speaks of “the circle of the earth”, the Hebrew word ”חוג” (chuwg) can also mean round or sphere, depending upon the context… Note in that verse, it also says God “stretcheth out the heavens”... which sound eerily similar to what science teaches of an expanding universe.

@ETpro “The fact that currently, effect follows cause does not say that all things that currently exist of have ever existed had to have a cause.”

It most certainly does, scientifically. Feel free to speculate metaphysics all you want. Imagine the one free miracle that science really needs to get things started. But let’s be clear what type of discussion we’re having. Certainly not a scientific one.

@ETpro “If it did, it would disprove the god you claim to believe in. It would also lead us into the infinite regress of who caused God, and who caused God’s cause…”

That’s what I mean by cherry picking. You can allow for an uncaused cause for a dumb mute cosmos, but not for an omnipotent being that dwells eternally unbound by the space/time it is purported to have created. Does that not seem suspiciously biased to you?

I’d say so, since you repeatedly insist upon arguing against a god that I don’t believe in any more than you do. Don’t throw that straw man god at me friend. Nor at any Christian either. The concept is called eternal. It is not subject to the laws of space/time.

But at least it’s good to see you are now considering concepts of eternity. Though it does not go unnoticed that it is for an imagined origins with no more credibility than the straw man god you erect to reject.

Consider, is the Atheist prepared to claim that the dumb mute cosmos is now conscious? For if we humans are conscious, and we are nothing more than star dust, then through us, the universe is now self aware. The universe is a conscious agent, able to speak code into existence out of nothing. Yes, the universe actually speaks now, lending credence to all folklore of talking trees and whispering streams… babbling brooks and burning bushes that tell old men to start a nation.

What is more likely hypothesis… considering what evidence we have to form one upon. All things equal, an eternal God being or an eternal universe… doesn’t matter. What is more likely, that consciousness arises from consciousness… or that consciousness arises from static? From what I’ve seen, the score is innumerable to zero, in favor of consciousness being responsible for consciousness… and even other lesser non conscious codified life forms. Gambling against odds like that seems like a fools bet to me.

drhat77's avatar

@ETpro I’m a medical doctor, so of course my god complex gives me the right to comment authoritiaviely on anythign I deign.
It was more of off the cuff remark about science history. But I believe that a society that states “We know everything” is more likely to be complacent or dogmatic than actually in possession of all knowledge. So there won’t be gaps, only more refined knowledge of what we don’t know.

mattbrowne's avatar

When science proves that the Universe itself has been here in varying forms eternally, you can ask why this is so? What explanation explains this phenomenon with such a powerful built-in mechanism?

If the answer to why this is so is X1, you can ask why is X1? If the answer to why this is so is X2, you can ask why is X2? If the answer to why this is so is X3, you can ask why is X3? If the answer to why this is so is X4, you can ask why is X4? If the answer to why this is so is X5, you can ask why is X5? If the answer to why this is so is X6, you can ask why is X6? If the answer to why this is so is X7, you can ask why is X7? If the answer to why this is so is X8, you can ask…

Or you can assume the role of a frustrated parent.

Child: Why do I have to clean up my room?
Parent: You have to clean up your room, because you have to clean up your room?
Child: (frowns)
Parent: End of discussion. Now go!

Neodarwinian's avatar

@mattbrowne

” What explanation explains this phenomenon with such a powerful built-in mechanism? ”

So tell us and leave out the pseudo math ( all the X-ing )

Neodarwinian's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

” Consider, is the Atheist prepared to claim that the dumb mute cosmos is now conscious? For if we humans are conscious, and we are nothing more than star dust, then through us, the universe is now self aware ”

I have considered this and I must be frank. This is incoherent.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Well frank, is incoherence dependent upon your ability to understand?

I’m pleased you jumped in @Neodarwinian. What part of that statement puzzles you?

Neodarwinian's avatar

No, the incoherence is your inability to string concepts together in a manner that not only connects the concepts but make all understandable.

” For if we humans are conscious, and we are nothing more than star dust, then through us, the universe is now self aware ” ( no question mark )

This is a non sequitur.

” Consider, is the Atheist prepared to claim that the dumb mute cosmos is now conscious? ”

This could be said to be the premise to the non sequitur, but it is confusing enough on it’s own as as an atheist I am not prepared to do any such thing.

Blondesjon's avatar

@Neodarwinian . . . I think it’s more of a grammatical affectation.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies . . . Realize, I have no qualms with this but consider it charming to a quantum degree

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@Neodarwinian ”...your inability to string concepts together in a manner that not only connects the concepts but make all understandable.”
@Neodarwinian ”...as an atheist I am not prepared to do any such thing.”

How do you know what you’re “not prepared to do”, unless what I said is “all understandable”?

@Blondesjon —“I have no qualms with this…”

Then you understand at least. And finding limited charm within the inference, verify the reasonable sequitur proposed.
_________

Assuming that both of you understand what I’m saying, but don’t like how I’m saying it, perhaps you would assist me in rephrasing the premise.

We generally don’t have any issues with tempting the thought of computers, or the internet, or artificial intelligence one day becoming self aware. A fairly popular concept. And if one tiny element in any of those became self aware, (say one server on your local ISP) science would be the first to declare that the internet had become self aware… for the flashy headlines you know.

An inspection of the truth would reveal that no, the entire internet had not become self aware. But instead that only one server at a particular ISP had become self aware. Fine fine… but science would then declare that the entire internet was under the process of becoming self aware.

So how is it any different for the relationship between self aware humans, and the dumb mute cosmos? It should follow quite simply, that if humans came from the dumb cosmic static of stardust, and we are self aware, then the cosmos is indeed also self aware. Perhaps to a limited degree, like an infant. But self aware nonetheless.

Is the Atheist ready to claim that the cosmos is, or is becoming… self aware?

It doesn’t seem so. And if not, why? Could that admission lead down the slippery slope of validating tales of ancient myth and folklore where stones groan and the wind warns?

Blondesjon's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies . . . Assuming that both of you understand what I’m saying, but don’t like how I’m saying it, perhaps you would assist me in rephrasing the premise.

My flattery is no red herring my friend. I do like the particular style in which you express yourself.

dxs's avatar

@ETpro That’s not quite what I was getting at. Of course Catholics think that the creation stories are allegories and the earth isn’t 6000 years old. Catholics agree with that. What he is explaining is that God didn’t reveal undiscovered science because the bible was written for its time period.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@Blondesjon I was just thinking… Not once in my five years or so on fluther, nor the couple of years before on wis.dm… not once have I ever witnessed one of these atheist vs theist questions actually change anyone’s mind. That just made me chuckle out loud.

We know this before even clicking the thread. And knowing this, I must confess that I come willingly… but not to change anyone’s mind. But instead, to work out my hack. I think that’s why we all come to these circuses.

Perhaps there is another reason though. Could it be that those of us that are the most ardent arguing regulars are really trying to just buster up our own position for our own personal satisfaction? I’ll be looking into the mirror very closely this evening.

Blondesjon's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies . . . Nah.

You and I are self-aware enough to understand that we are both enormous hacks and derive no small pleasure from it.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

and right you are sir!

Neodarwinian's avatar

@Blondesjon

” For if we humans are conscious, and we are nothing more than star dust, then through us, the universe is now self aware ”

Affectation or not this does not follow. From humans are conscious, the premise, to the universe is now self aware, the conclusion. The bridge concept, we are nothing more than stardust, is somewhat a fact, though we are stardust we and much more than that.

So, a non sequitur.

Blondesjon's avatar

@Neodarwinian . . . The bridge concept only requires that you hold your breath, make a wish, and count to three . . .

ragingloli's avatar

A tiny spec of consciousness in an otherwise unconscious universe makes the universe as conscious as a single marxist in a nation of capitalists makes that country marxist.

Neodarwinian's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

” How do you know what you’re “not prepared to do”, unless what I said is “all understandable”? ”

That one sentence was somewhat understandable, so I give a partial retraction, but the question was answered. I am not prepared to do anything prepared by your ” affectations, ” literary, or not.

” science would be the first to declare that the internet had become self aware… for the flashy headlines you know. ”

What?!? Do you even know what science is?

” It should follow quite simply, that if humans came from the dumb cosmic static of stardust, and we are self aware, then the cosmos is indeed also self aware. Perhaps to a limited degree, like an infant. But self aware nonetheless.”

No, it should not!! This is a non sequitur.

Small rules can lead to great complexity. Just because we are from star dust and self aware does not mean the cosmos can be self aware. Why would it be? We came from precursors that were anything but self aware.

So, you could turn you statement on it’s head:

Because Escherichia coli came from the dumb cosmic static of stardust, and they are not self aware, then the cosmos is not self aware.

These logic chopping games are always twist-able and only the evidence settles questions, not logic chopping.

I won’t even go into the rest of this post.

Neodarwinian's avatar

@ragingloli

Succinct, and to the point!

Neodarwinian's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

” Could it be that those of us that are the most ardent arguing regulars are really trying to just buster up our own position for our own personal satisfaction? I’ll be looking into the mirror very closely this evening.”

No, some of us are speaking to the fence sitters.

Some read this and do not participate because they do not have their minds made up. They do not know what to say, so they read and think. I hope.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@ragingloli “A tiny spec of consciousness in an otherwise unconscious universe makes the universe as conscious as a single marxist in a nation of capitalists makes that country marxist.”

So… humans and the universe are both conscious? I assume the humans would be the marxists here. But I had no idea the universe worked on a capitalist model. Makes sense though, considering evolutionary theory and all.

All jesting aside, a tiny bit of consciousness in an otherwise unconscious internet would make the internet conscious nonetheless, to a limited degree, like an infant… as previously noted.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

RERRL… ”...for the flashy headlines you know.”

@Neodarwinian
What?!? Do you even know what science is?

Yes certainly. It’s an industry just like any other industry. The more hype created, the more funding secured. Can you say “embryonic stem cell research?”.

@Neodarwinian ”...a non sequitur…”

…Perhaps to a limited degree, like an infant. But self aware nonetheless…

@Neodarwinian “Just because we are from star dust and self aware does not mean the cosmos can be self aware. Why would it be? We came from precursors that were anything but self aware.”

BINGO! We have a winner here folks! Thank you for that @Neodarwinian.
“Why would it be?”

Exactly. No evidence has ever suggested that consciousness can arise from static. Therefor, the universe could not possibly be responsible for our human consciousness. As you say… “Why would it be?”

The Atheist must wrestle with that riddle. Either admit the universe is conscious, or becoming conscious through us (and demonstrate a repeatable falsifiable evidence to support the mechanism in which it occurs upon)or admit that human consciousness is ultimately attributed to an original proto consciousness, even if we are unaware of it.

@Neodarwinian “Escherichia coli came from the dumb cosmic static of stardust, and they are not self aware, then the cosmos is not self aware.”

Very good. So we agree the universe is not conscious. Therefor, THE UNIVERSE CANNOT AUTHOR CODE to manifest the DNA of any living creature.

unless you’d like to demonstrate how anything unconscious can possibly author code, and develop an entire communication protocol to ride it upon, complete with error correction, redundancy, noise reduction, and transcription from code A (DNA) to code B (RNA).

glacial's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies, you may as well argue that a rock must be conscious, because it is also made of atoms. I’m not feeling any particular need to “wrestle with that riddle”.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Not quite @glacial. See, there is no mention of “atoms” required in communication or information theory. The reason for that is that atoms can only be used to create a medium. That medium is completely independent from the message it represents. That’s why a CD with 650mb doesn’t weigh any more than a Blue Ray disk with 10gig. Information is not energy or matter. Atoms are irrelevant. There is no direct correlation between the amount of atoms to a set amount of information, or consciousness. And atoms have never shown any capacity for authorship of code.

Neodarwinian's avatar

” Yes certainly. It’s an industry just like any other industry. The more hype created, the more funding secured. Can you say “embryonic stem cell research?”.”

No, it is a method.

” The Atheist must wrestle with that riddle. Either admit the universe is conscious, or becoming conscious through us (and demonstrate a repeatable falsifiable evidence to support the mechanism in which it occurs upon)… or admit that human consciousness is ultimately attributed to an original proto consciousness, even if we are unaware of it. ”

No, I must do nothing of the sort with false dichotomies.

” Very good. So we agree the universe is not conscious. Therefor, THE UNIVERSE CANNOT AUTHOR CODE to manifest the DNA of any living creature. ”

But natural selection can and did because we have evidence of natural selection authoring many things, but we have no evidence for ” an original proto consciousness, ” what ever the hell that is.

As usual you logic chop and offer no evidence ( asked you about evidence last post, remember? ) for your actual point. Why don’t you do that?

Until then we are quite through because it is my bed time

glacial's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies You have just provided the explanation for why your “universe with a consciousness” premise makes no sense.

Neodarwinian's avatar

@glacial

I doubt he can see that.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Perhaps you misunderstood me @glacial. I don’t believe in a conscious universe because I believe in a proto consciousness which created it from outside of it. Those who don’t believe in a proto consciousness must admit the universe is or is becoming conscious through us.

Think test tube baby. No one believes the tube is conscious because we infer the existence of donors being responsible, even if we don’t know who they are. But if we did not infer the existence of donors, then we must conclude the test tube is responsible.

@Neodarwinian “But natural selection can and did because we have evidence of natural selection authoring many things, but we have no evidence for ” an original proto consciousness, ” what ever the hell that is.”

Some would call that God. I don’t, simply because of the baggage that word carries, and the countless interpretations. It’s no secret here that I’m quite unfond of religion too. Whatever the proto consciousness is, it is far beyond anything we can imagine or package up in a word.

And yes we do have evidence of a proto consciousness. Hard evidence. CODE
All codes have authors. No exceptions. An anonymous author has never been reason to assume a book wrote itself.

Natural selection doesn’t author code. Natural selection works off the best codes which have mutated a more beneficial adaptation to any given environment.

Codes can be authored in a manner which allows them to re-author themselves to adapt to an environment. Your virus protection software will confirm that. So each mutation doesn’t necessarily need an original author. But an original author is required to launch the code from the beginning.
___________

Wow… I promised myself I wouldn’t talk about this stuff any more. Trust me @Neodarwinian, you’re getting the very very light version. You may browse through any of my posts from two to five years ago and get all the links and papers and quotes and all the goodies necessary to lead you to where I am currently. Just ask @ETpro. We’ve been shaking this rattle for years upon end. I’m not going any further with this now.

You may have the last word my friend. Please… I encourage it. I just don’t have the interest to get into it all. Would just be a waist of my time because no one is about to listen anyway.

See you around! I’m out.

no replies to you either @ETpro. You got the last word.

Neodarwinian's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

” And yes we do have evidence of a proto consciousness. Hard evidence. CODE ”

Another fallacy. A referential argument.

” All codes have authors. No exceptions. An anonymous author has never been reason to assume a book wrote itself. ”

Says who? The ” code ” you speak of did not need an author any more than the code that is contemporary with it it. RNA, the code that also metabolizes. Did your author also throw that little trick in as a bonus? Was there a selective process going on between better and better codes?

Regardless, deist or theist you still are dependent on argument. How did the author make the code? Why did the author make the code? If the author made this code why is it so less than perfectly engineered? And so on.

Too many questions, no answers.

ETpro's avatar

@serenade Solipsism is unfalsifiable and useless to do anything meaningful. If it’s true, I’m perfectly fine with that, but I am not going to sit contemplating my navel and let all I am responsible for in the apparent reality around me go to hell just because you or anyone else asserts something that there is no evidence for, and no way to test. I choose to live my life as if reality exists outside my own thoughts.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I knew you would gig me for shoddy research. It was very late, and I just dashed something off. You are quite right, I did not support my argument with evidence.

The Talmudic writings that were not canonized are not actually heresy. In fact, it could be argued they are more solidly part of the Abrahamic religions than what came from Constantine and the various attempts at canonization thereafter, all of them motivated far more by the struggle for political power and wealth than any concern about what was biblically accurate. But however sloppy and politically motivated the process was that gave you the Bible you believe today, for sake of argument, let’s deal only with it.

The domes of the heavens circling the earth, including the one holding the sun, are right there in Genesis. Genesis 1 and 2 directly contradict one another in the creation order, and neither has any remote relation to what we now know actually happened. If God dictated that to man, he got it wrong. Either he isn’t omniscient and had no clue how the solar system and universe are ordered, or he’s not omnipotent and while he dictated the perfect truth, men were fallible and God was powerless to do anything about that. It’s either that, or he deliberately lied.

There are scriptures from both the old and new Testament that clearly state that the Earth is flat. Daniel 4:10–14 “The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth: The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth: The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it. I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven; He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:”

To be fair, this speaks of a king who is suffering an emotional breakdown. Perhaps he is hallucinating even though the text gives us no hint this is the case, and finds no fault with the flat-earth theory it espouses.

But there is more, and it’s less easy to dismiss with hand waving. In Isaiah 11:12. We read, “And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth”. The last time I checked, globes don’t have four corners.

There is Matthew 4:8: “Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;” Can you name me a mountain so high you can see the opposite side of the globe from its peak? Luke 4:5 repeats the same absurdity.

And then there it the one you alluded to, Revalation 7:1 “And after these things I saw four angels standing on four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.”

As with the Daniel quote, this cannot be taken literally; the events described in Revelation are a series of visions, rather than an accurate description of the world. But it is one more flat earth claim.”

How much more convincing might it have been if God had dictated the Planck constant to his earthly stenographers. He could have told them that you won’t understand what this is, but write it down because in the distant future, men will read it and know that I am God. How about if he had told us how to look for a cosmic microwave background radiation from 13.74 billion years ago, and what to expect to see? Instead, he dictated a series of begats that leaves biblical literalists convinced the Earth is about 6,000 years old.

I assume you are an atheist when it comes to Zeus. I doubt you are aching to murder a young virgin and hold her beating heart up to please Tezcatlipoca. Why? The evidence for Zeus and Tezcatlipoca is equally as compelling as that for El, née Yahweh, née The Trinity, née Allah. Namely, there is zero evidence for any of these deities of any of the 3000 or so others man has invented.

ETpro's avatar

@drhat77 I tend to agree that if we ever fill in all the gaps, it will be so far in the future none of us need worry about the consequences. My point about the God of the Gaps is he’s rapidly shrinking. There is less and less we need God to explain, and more and more reason to assume he explains nothing.

The one thing I see a belief in God actually doing is giving solace to those who are terrified of death and take no solace in the scientific view of it. Personally, I’d rather deal with the truth. As Steven Pinker has aptly noted, “If you’re being chased by a tiger, it may comfort you to believe it’s a rabbit. But it is a tiger and it’s going to eat you.”

ETpro's avatar

@mattbrowne There must be fundamental rules that operate the Universe. Understanding them will tell us why they are so.

I am not a child. Don’t deal with me as if I were. If you prefer that role for yourself, that is your choice. I will respect it and treat you accordingly.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

I’m sorry ET… It’s like you didn’t read anything I wrote, but just went to the standard atheist handbook and called up all the flat earth “cherry picks”.

That’s why I appreciate you saying:
“As with the Daniel quote, this cannot be taken literally; the events described in Revelation are a series of visions, rather than an accurate description of the world.”

As I said before, before you even started with it, every reference you point out is either a vision or a dream. So by your own standards, they should not “be taken literally”.

Read again what I said above. Every one of your examples qualifies as a dream or vision. No reality based reference to flat earth teaching. And did you miss my comment about “the four corners” being a simple depiction of the cardinal directions? I wouldn’t have commented here again had you not so blatantly ignored my previous post.

ETpro's avatar

@dxs An omniscient God would know what this time would need as well as what bronze age goat herders needed. With omnipotence, such a God could have easily crafted a narrative that would speak to both audiences. The fact that that did not happen is extremely telling.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Believe whatever fairy tales make you happy. You ignore all of history and rabbinical letters of the day outside the biblical texts of 2500 BC, and you hand wave away the biblical texts that fail to support your case. You appeal to the Greeks in the 5th century BCS to prove that ancient Jews 2000 years earlier knew the Earth was round. I’m perfectly capable of reading with I have time. I’m done with your hand waving, though, because I have no more time for it.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

As well, your other concerns are neatly addressed in the links within my original post. You obviously didn’t check it. You know what man… I read or watch virtually every link you provide. You know this because of the comments I make on them, debating them at length at times.

If you don’t have time for the full hour presentation, just fast forward to about the last eleven minutes of the MP3. Everything you reject is there in the Q&A about the order of events in Genesis. As I said earlier, we can grant leeway for atheists to speak with the language of the observer… but somehow that’s not appropriate for theistic interpretations.

ETpro's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I have been thought that apologetic so many times I am sick of it. It is deeply flawed. I don’t have the time or inclination to tell you why. A google search will show you.

mattbrowne's avatar

@Neodarwinian – Second-order logic isn’t pseudo math. And you can use it to prove that science cannot know everything. Proof by contradiction is a form of proof that establishes the truth or validity of a proposition by showing that the proposition’s being false would imply a contradiction.

mattbrowne's avatar

@ETpro – The word gap has several meanings, and the relevant one for the debate is “an interruption of continuity”. We know how the solar system evolved and we know how bacteria evolve and how symbiosis works. What we don’t know yet is how life got started. None of the existing hypotheses passed the test to become an accepted theory. There are two options to deal with this

1) God did it (that would be a god of the gaps)
2) The natural laws did it, but we don’t understand the details yet

The ultimate explanation isn’t about a gap. It isn’t about the interruption of continuity. The interruption of continuity is more scientists to uncover.

Young-earth creationism certainly is about a god of gaps.

serenade's avatar

@ETpro, it is understandable to interpret what I wrote as pointing to solipsism—a hazard, I think of the assumptions of a mind schooled in western philosophy, but this is not where I am pointing. Instead I am pointing toward a nondualistic awareness, a single awareness, giving rise to illusory dualities of multiple consciousnessness and/or personhoods. It is of a single light fractured into many rays of light for the sake of experiencing and transcending desire and a dualistic existence. Rather than living as persons in a world, I am suggesting that we are each an illusory world and a illusory person living “inside” a consciousness borne from a great awareness.

The beginnings of verifying this inside-outness of our nature comes with recognizing that most of what we believe to be concrete about ourselves and the world are only observable and transitory thoughts produced by the mind. Furthermore, they are observable, by what must be the “true” us—you or me or anyone who attempts to observe. When one eliminates self identification with all thoughts (I am a person; I was born; I am American; I am male) and begins to cleave personhood from identity, then it is possible to trace observation back to a pure consciousness and then to a universal awareness.

It is relevant to note that while it is easily possible to understand the above intellectually, the “knowing” of this is experienced before mind is involved. Given your many contributions regarding these topics, I would expect you to find this whole idea refutable or perhaps not worth addressing and that is fine, but I would say it is premature to judge without first experiencing the journey of silencing one’s mind in order to subdue it (in a way) to the seeing of oneself first or more rightly as simply consciousness and that from which all ideas about a person and a world or even a universe emerge.

drhat77's avatar

@ETpro a significant gap that remains as far as I see is why be “good” when you can be “good at it”. (Ie, not get caught). If everything just is stochastic and random, why not just add up entropy a bit for personal gain? I have no objective proof God exists, which is why I never bring him up in scientific debates. But it helps me still be a good person at 3 am when I’m tired and grouchy.
Yes there are probably ways to do that without invoking God, but I believe we may be biologically inclined to be religious, so if I can hitch my cart to that drive to be a better person, that’s economy right there.

serenade's avatar

apologies for gross misuse of commas

Neodarwinian's avatar

@mattbrowne

” Second-order logic isn’t pseudo math ”

Yes it is. Now, if you had shown me a second order differential equation you might have been saying something outside philosophical logic.

” And you can use it to prove that science cannot know everything. ”

Perhaps science can not know everything, but of late philosophy seems to know nothing.

Proofs are for mathematics and it used to be that philosophers were pretty good mathematicians along with being natural scientists. So, what happened?

Neodarwinian's avatar

@drhat77

” but I believe we may be biologically inclined to be religious ”

Perhaps biologically inclined to believe, and that is exploited by religion

” a significant gap that remains as far as I see is why be “good” when you can be “good at it”. (Ie, not get caught) ”

Because cheaters are punished and those that do not punish cheaters are also punished. How many people do you see that are too ” good at it? ” Probably more than we know, but not more than we can handle.

We are biologically inclined to be ” good ” also and this is reflected and enforced in our social institutions.

drhat77's avatar

No one can cheat all the time and never get caught. But when I’m not feeling so biologically inclined to be good at a particular moment, I hope my religion steers me in the right direction. I am probably improperly positioned to be a judge of how good a job I’m doing at that, but maybe I’m succeeding.
Yes, there are unscrupulous people who take advantage of religion, but we think it is inexorably tied with religion just because abuse of it has gone on for so long. The Soviet Union overturned religion and then went right on with every single excess and abuse of it because the unscrupulous took advantage of the people that trusted them. So the problem is in people, not in religion.
wait, religion doesn’t kill people, people do? Is this where I’m going with this? Oh shit!

dxs's avatar

@ETpro
With omnipotence, such a God could have easily crafted a narrative that would speak to both audiences.
I’d say that Jesus did that.

Neodarwinian's avatar

@drhat77

” So the problem is in people, not in religion. ”

The people are religion, so that is just one problem. The claims religion make are specious. So, in effect religion does not exist except in people’s minds.

” But when I’m not feeling so biologically inclined to be good at a particular moment, I hope my religion steers me in the right direction. ”

Confusion of ultimate and proximate impetuses for behavior.

Unless you are many standard deviations from the mean ( a psychopath, perhaps, or the criminally inclined ) your ultimate, evolutionary morality is there to underlie you proximate feelings that are societal and predate religion. Where do you think religion got the golden rule? They certainly did not invent it.

ETpro's avatar

@mattbrowne It’s not really an interruption of continuity that I am dealing with. To the bronze age herdsmen that worshiped Yahweh, it was all gaps. God was responsible for virtually every natural action. They were clueless about how or why any of it worked. We now know a good deal about how and why physical phenomena occur, and thus the gaps now are those things we don’t know, such as how does abiogenesis work, and what lies beyond the event horizon of the big bang. But there is a very good chance we will soon know those things as well. The gaps keep narrowing.

@serenade As lovely as that may sound, it actually does lead right back to solipsism. “The beginnings of verifying this inside-outness of our nature comes with recognizing that most of what we believe to be concrete about ourselves and the world are only observable and transitory thoughts produced by the mind.” Would you feel threatened if I asked you for some evidence that this world view it true? If not, then please lay out your evidence.

@drhat77 There have been 110,000,000,000 people on earth. Almost none got away with being unmitigated, take-form-everyone assholes. All but a vanishingly small fraction of those who tried failed. There are the exceptions that prove the rule, so the rule holds solid for me.

@dxs How so. I certainly do not see that. I think you have to make some great leaps in definition to establish anything remotely like that.

serenade's avatar

@ETpro, FWIW, Wikipedia says this position is not solipsism. To wit:

The concept of the Self in the philosophy of Advaita, could be interpreted as solipsism. However, the transhuman, theological implications of the Self in Advaita protect it from true solipsism as is found in the west. Similarly, the Vedantic text Yogavasistha, escapes charge of solipsism because the real “I” is thought to be nothing but the absolute whole looked at through a particular unique point of interest.[17]

Advaita is also thought to strongly diverge from solipsism in that, the former is a system of exploration of one’s mind in order to finally understand the nature of the self and attain complete knowledge. The unity of existence is said to be directly experienced and understood at the end as a part of complete knowledge. On the other hand solipsism posits the non-existence of the external void right at the beginning, and says that no further inquiry is possible.[citation needed]

The evidence is derived from direct observation. If phenomena is observable, then there must be an observer independent of the phenomena. When we follow this path to identify the observer, most of what we take to be our world and ourselves is dispelled, because many layers of what we commonly assume to be “I” are directly observable.

drhat77's avatar

Its not about being a take-from-everyone asshole. It’s about the little temptations to “even the score” that I try avoid taking because it is incongruent with my religious beleifs. I hope I’m doing a good job about it.
I feel like I’m doing a very poor job of communicating this.

mattbrowne's avatar

@ETpro – Yes, the god of the gaps was very popular in the past and still is to some extend today. Same goes for the angry and vengeful god.

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