How much do you trust the vitamins and herbs you take?

Well, I take renal multivitamins and vitamin D as prescribed by my physician, so I trust them well enough. As I said before I do not take herbal supplements.

@Neodarwinian Did your physician prescribe a specific vitamin, or did you get it OTC? How do you trust the brand?

I take a multi-vitamin and extra C, with meals and an aspirin every day, just in case my heart is on the verge of exploding. lol
I used to buy into supplements more, and I do know that if you do not take them with food they do not absorb and you just end up with very expensive urine. haha
Meh.,,.I don’t think they are all that they are cracked up to be.

Nice visual of the vitamin in the colon btw. Bet that put you in the mood for a little romance.
0-o

@Coloma Okay, you made me laugh out loud with that. I’m a riot with the ladies.

At least with vitamin C you can chew it, and so you know it’s probably going to be absorbed.

@Rarebear So, should I crush up my womens daily? haha

I believe this was covered, with the same study discussed in Does anyone need any more evidence that herbal supplements are a scam?

I don’t know that the meat I’m eating is beef, but if it tastes off, then I quit eating.

I don’t know that the juice I’m drinking is from an orange, but if it tastes off, I quit drinking.

I don’t know that the Advil I’m taking has ibuprofen, but if it doesn’t work, I stop taking it.

If I take a supplement, and it doesn’t do what I think it will do, then I stop taking it. I trust the ones that do what they say they’ll do. Others go in the trash.

@Rarebear

Specific. Comes by mail and I do not even know the brand. Some VA pharmaceutical jobber that sells to the VA in bulk. ( will investigate that brand(s) tomorrow as it is late here )

I have alternative health care but as the co-pay at the VA is peanuts all my medications come from there by mail.

I’m not as interested in the whole scam or not scam thing. I’m perfectly willing to accept a supplement if there is evidence

I’m more interested in this question on the quality control.

It would be nice to have oversight, that’s for sure. But then, they can only do that if they allow the vitamin companies to make efficacy claims, right?

For example, my husband takes potassium and magnesium supplements to discourage muscle cramps.

We pretty much know they work because when he remembers to take them, he doesn’t wake up with crampy legs.

But, nowhere on the supplement bottles does it say “Hey, this will kick Charlie’s Horse to the curb!” because… it’s not actually a drug, is it? It’s just distilled banana nutrients.

Aw, hell, I don’t know.

@Rarebear – I get you. I guess what I’m saying in a roundabout way is I don’t watch anything I buy at the store being packaged. I honestly just have to trust the manufacturer, farmer, butcher, packaging company, distributor and/or retailer to all be honest.

How do I know any of it is good, whether it’s an apple or creatine? I try it.

@Rarebear

Absolutely completely.

The_ food_ sourced supplements I take are guaranteed not only to be bioavailble but to specifically dissolve in the proper part of the GI tract for the particular nutrient.

Everyone: Direct any questions to me via PM.

I take a multivitamin every day. Since most multivitamins have an enteric coating, and I lack the organ that is supposed to be able to break those down, I buy Centrum chewables. I know they might not be doing much for me, but I’m sure it’s at least a little better than nothing at all.

I order most of my vitamins and supplements from puritan’s pride.

I do this because of cheaper to buy in bulk, the added info about what they add or what is not it the vitamins. Ie no gluten dairy corn soy etc.

But I also know they work because I feel better when I take them. Sometimes I feel like skipping and I do. I know they work because I routinely get my levels checked. Potassium, iron, b vitamins, vitamin d3 etc. They all are usually kept within the normal range. Except when I go through a period of nor taking them. This is odd because I was on diuretics, suffer anemia and have a genetic and historical problem absorbing b vitamins and am anemic.

Before that I just took a multi that I chose from a site that tested and rated them.

I would love to get all my nutritional need from food. But living in ak some sources of fresh produce are limited and old. Also I have specific needs according to my medical condition. Consumer labs does testing, but I haven’t signed up to read the info. I kinda feel like it should be free. And I have found sources that for all intents and purposes seem to work. And are affordable.

As to the FDA I have almost no faith in them.

I buy supplements that are either recommended to my by my physician, or that I have researched the supplement myself. If I read “guaranteed to be bio-available” that’s a win.

Furthermore, all my vitamins are either liquid or encapsulated powders so they dissolve quickly, and should never arrive in the colon intact. I NEVER buy or use supplements that come in tablet form because tablets simply don’t dissolve very well, regardless of the manufacturer. Vitamins such as Centrum are notorious for not dissolving in the digestive tract.

Even before skimming the article I would have answered I have trust issues with my OTC viitamins. I don’t take herbs; never have. I really question whether any of the vitamin D I have taken OTC has vitamin D in it, or in the quantities stated. I take a prescription now that effectively raises my D levels. It’s true that I never took as much D OTC as the rx, but the OTC was D3, which is supposed to be better, and it really seemed to do nothing. If someone knew an OTC D that they know raised their blood levels significantly I would be interested. This vitamin in particular has made me question vitamins on the shelf in general. I take a Flintstone’s multi at times, and for whatever reason I do trust that one. I guess I would hate to think something marketed to children would be a fraud.

I trust the iron I take because my iron levels come up well. I buy it at GNC. Previously, I bought Slowfe, which I also very much trusted, and now I can’t get it. interestingly, for a while I took rx chewable multivitamins, which have high iron. My iron didn’t move much. After many months of taking it the pharmacy told me it was available anymore, because there was some sort of recall that it was unstable.

I now take a “natural” thyroid med. it’s a prescription. I can’t tell yet if I feel 100% confident about the amounts of hormone, it seems to be fairly steady, but my body is never completely steady. Some doctors won’t prescribe the natural one, because they question how exact the hormone is in each pill. If it is an rx I would hope it is labeled accurately. My body is so sensitive to T4 that I would know within weeks if it was way off in the pill, but if it was very little it might take me many months to figure it out.

As you know, my mom worked for the FDA. Just like some news organizations have reported there are instances of rx drugs not have enough or the actual active ingredient in it. Most of the reports were from Chinese manufactured meds. It’s was quite rare for it to happen though, and that was several years ago, it might be even rarer now. It’s not something I worry about. However, one generic I take, Augmentin, that generic two different manufacturers, falls apart and turn colors just a couple months of the shelf, and I am afraid that might alter it’s efficacy. The brand does not do that, they look the same after two years, not that I am taking the old drug, but I have had pills old in my cabinet previously.

As far as pills intact in the gut; I worry about that. I have difficulty swollowing pills, so I like when they are very coated. I try to always take with plenty of fluid, hopingnit will dissolve whatever needs to be dissolved. I assume it helps, but I really don’t know. Some pills I have measured in my blood so I know I guess. Thyroid, vitamin D, iron, and vitamin B12. I really don’t think I am much of a placebo person. I tend to be the opposite, I think things aren’t going to work. Probably because I had years of chronic illness and burned through so much medicine trial and error that did nothing, but doctors thought should help. They two were using trial and error though in a way, in their defense. But, initially they presented it to me like it should work. It is now many years later that I realize they were just guessing at what might work.

With all I have said, I trust rx medication and vitamins more than OTC overall, unless I have experience with the specific OTC drug or vitamin myself and know it to be effective for me.

@Seek_Kohlinahr Was his blood levels of potassium and magnesium ever low? I ask because I have terrible muscle cramp and weakness problems but my potassium and magnesium are always perfect. I did try extra potassium for a while before I had other things diagnosed and treated and the potassium did nothing for my muscles. I ask because I have thught about taking magnesium anyway, my doctor recommended it, but I haven’t done it.

@JLeslie D3 isn’t easily absorbed unless you take it with K2. Here’s a link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qze3gnHgfbo You can buy K2D3 on the Internet or in a health food store, but you won’t find it in a grocery store or the corner drug store.

@snowberry K2 doesn’t aid in the vitamin D blood levels, it aids in getting calcium into the bone rather than laying in soft tissues and arteries. Or, so the theory goes. High levels of supplemetal D sometimes increase calcium levels, which is dangerous. Esoecially when large evels of D and calcium are being taken. K2 is being suggested for patients at risk for heart disease and osteoperosis.

I take K2. Doesn’t matter. I get my D levels tested regularly. With the D script, my levels go up, OTC nothing or plummet. Back when I didn’t take K2 still it was apples to apples, I wasn’t taking it with the script or with the OTC.

My PCP and eye doctor recommend I take fish oil. I take it.
My PCP tells me to take calcium supplements. I take it.

@chyna. I’m not questioning the medical need of the supplements. I’m just wondering about the quality control. Are your supplements prescribed or OTC?

OTC. I asked my doc and she said OTC was fine.

Also, every time I turn on my TV, there are thousands of commercials for lawsuits for prescription drugs. “If you or a loved one has lost your kidney, bladder, or other body part or even died after taking this drug, you may be eligible to sue the company…”
I have yet to see even one commercial saying “If you have taken Brand X fish oil and you or a loved one has developed gills or died, you may be eligible to sue…”
Just saying.

^ You can’t sue a vitamin for not being effective, because they make no claims of efficacy.

“This is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease”.

Although…

http://www.herbal-lawsuit.com/

We’re also forgetting that while true, many used to die at young ages, many millions of people throughout history still lived well into their older years with little fresh produce, fruits, and living on things such as salt pork, hard tack, biscuits, cornmeal, potatoes, and little else.
Humans are hardy beings and the body can take a LOT of abuse before it gives up.

@chyna Just some background info, when a drug comes to market the FDA requires millions be set aside by the pharm company to pay out for lawsuits. Lawyers know it, and go after the kitty of money. Money laying there in wait. Don’t get me wrong, when people are truly damaged by a medication or medical device I think they should have recourse, but sometimes the risks are very well known, and I don’t know what I think for those cases. I guess in a way that is partly for what the money is set aside for. Not only paying on unknown side effects or injuries, but even predictable ones. Also, sometimes people win money for something that in my opinion is unrelated to the drug. Like women years ago gettng money for getting cervical cancer while on certain BC pills. That is total BS to me.

I take a womens’ multi capsule that claims it’s made from whole foods. I don’t know how I’d prove whether they’re lying or not. I also take a liquid sub-lingual B-12 that tastes great, a fish oil softgel ( I like Carlson’s) and turmeric because I read about this last one on internet sites that aren’t selling turmeric and my legs feel better. Oh; I also eat chia seeds daily (salba) and I won’t say how I know it works or is good for you on fluther. I’ve given up all supplements that seem to be all chemicals or that don’t work like ginseng and many others.

@chyna doesn’t seem to be saying people are suing over the effitiveness of the prescription drugs, but because of damage done by them. I have not seen any commercials inviting takers of multi-vitamins to join in a class action suit for damage done by the supplement.

The only supplement I take is L-Lysine, an amino acid to prevent outbreaks of herpes. I always use the same brand, which seems to be working because I haven’t had an outbreak for months and months.

I do think that makers of supplements should be held to account for their products. If one makes the choice to use herbs and supplements, they should have some reasonable expectation of the supplements meeting certain safety standards.

@LilCosmo Right. I wasn’t talking about effectiveness either, I was talking about damage. I have a feeling the vitamin companies don’t have the stash of money set aside, but I don’t know exactly what vitamin companies do regarding possible law suits. I’m sure there aren’t many incidents of serious side effects from vitamins in general. Except when a child overdoses on iron, that sort of thing. Large doses of iron are kept in packaging that is difficult for kids to OD on though.

I think with normal doses the damage risk is remote actually.

@Rarebear Of which thing? Vitamins, minerals, or Rx medication?

You cannot be sure with the FDA oversight either link

I have my products tested in a private lab before I become a full time customer. Recently, I had Henna (Lawsonia inermis) tested. Grade A morrocan.

I thought I would mention there has been lawsuits of false claims of herbs and vitamins. One that comes to mind is the OTC supplement Airborne. I think they settled and paid out millions. Is that a trust issue? I initially I was thinking in terms of the quanitity of the vitamin being accurate. This is more about whether you trust the vitamin or herb to do what it says for your health.

They made false claims of efficacy, saying that the stuff prevented colds. This was determined to be false advertisement, as there was little to no evidence that it worked. They issued refunds as part of the settlement.

It’s now sold not as a cold-preventative, but as an “immune booster”. Because, y’know, that changes the fact that it effectively does nothing.

@Seek_Kolinahr I wonder if the creator really believed it worked? I saw her once talking about Airborne when it first starting selling big in the stores. She was there to talk about how she became successful, rather than really touting her product. I remember looking at the “medicine” when I heard about it, not because I thought it worked, just interested and came across it in the market. Seemed like a multivitamin with some trendy stuff in there people believe to stop colds. I don’t believe any of that stuff. Not the vitamin C, not the Zinc, I don’t buy into any of it. I vaguely remember being annoyed it recommended multiple doses in a day and the vitamin A was kind of high. That bothered me, because from what I know that would be a no no for pregnant women. It might overall ok as a multivitamin though. I’d have to look at the contents again to decide what I think. I assume it costs more than a Flinstone’s? Maybe not.

Airborne Chewables are apparently not for children, so we’ll compare to Centrum instead.

The Centrum website doesn’t sell directly, but 100 Centrum Chewables tablets are $8.07 on Amazon – 100 tablets = 100 doses

Airborne Chewables are $7.49 for a pack of 32 tablets. 32 tablets = 8 doses, four tablets per dose, up to 12 tablets per day.

Use of Airborne by pregnant women is contraindicated on the label.

I’m not good at math, but I think Airborne is ripping people off.

Just going off a vague memory but wasn’t vitamin a put in tons of our foods and the average American was probably getting too much of it anyhow?

Airborne was developed by a second grade teacher so it has to be true.

@Unbroken America does fortify and enrich many foods with vitamin and minerals. Somehow a lot of us are still dificient in some vitamins. I am dificient in vitamin D without mega doses, I am borderline dificient in B12 without supllements, and I am dificient in iron without extra supllements. Those three dificiencies are very common among many people I know. I might have other low numbers I am unaware of. I can’t tell you how many nutritionists, dieticians, and doctors tell me what you just stated. When I ask if they bother to test people for vitamin and mineral dificiencies they almost always say no. So, how do they know? My doctors who test for D dificiency see it constantly among their patients. It is worth noting some doctors even with low blood levels of D, don’t believe it needs or should be treated. B12 and iron is a different story, I believe all doctors thing those are important.

When my thyroid went whackado I called my some of the packaged food manyufacturers I regularly eat. Stouffer’s and Campbell’s. Both said they do not use iodized sodium. I’m assuming a lot of high sodium foods we eat have no iodine and we don’t add salt generally to those. Also at the time the salt on my pantry shelf happened to be without iodine (usually I bought iodized salt, but the last purchse I hadn’t). I don’t know if it affected my thyroid, because often when iodine is reintroduced into the diet the thyroid gets better, and my thyroid is not better without pharmaceuticals. But, it is still interesting to me that maybe some of our citizens are having low iodine levels because we eat more and more packaged and restaurant foods. I don’t think the majority of doctors check iodine at all anymore in America. It would be interesting for endocrinologists and GP’s to look at that again.

The USRDA recommendation seem to make sure you have enough vitamins and minerals to avoid significant disease like rickets, scurvy, and some others, but I am not sure I would say it necessarily gives us the levels we need to be at optimum health. A whole bunch of people walk around feeling like shit, but no concrete diagnosis. Not sick enough for a diagnosis, but sick enough to know they don’t feel nornal. It happens to women especially, and we are usually told we are getting old or that it is hormonal or that we don’t exercise enough. Maybe @Rarebear will comment on what I said about the USRDA recommendations and what the goal of the recommendation really is. Some vitamins we get plenty of without supplements, it depends on the individual, their body, and their diet. My salts are always perfect, magnesium levels in good range, without doing anything special. Generally, I don’t think people should just supplement without knowing they really need the supplement. An average daily vitamin can be good I guess just in case. I take a Flinstone’s almost daily, and then I run out, a few months later I buy them again. I am very haphazard a daily multi.

@JLeslie that is true. I think tests should be offered for a full range of micronutrients as a preventative health care measure. Even the alternative care and dieticians I have seen don’t offer that. I wonder if such tests exist.

I mean I have had b and d and c and potassium tests as well as a few others but it seems they need seperate vials for each nutrient.

I would be very curious as to see where I fell and how they detect deficiencies of less common or less trendy nutrients.

I guess it just might not be plausible or not fiscally beneficial to the health care industry to investigate.

@Unbroken I guess they usually only test for likely dificiencies based on symptoms. I’m really not sure though. I had one GP who regularly tested B12. I had one GYN who regularly tested iron. My endocrinologist was the one who tested my D, but you can tell by looking at me I will likely be low in D. My neighbor took it upon herself to get B12 shots and when she finally went to the doctor her number was crazy super high.

It’s not like I think vitamins solve everything, but with some dificiencies the difference in health can be dramatic. I truly believe adressing my vitamin dificiencies has warded off having mich worse problems.

The issue is what do you do with the data and what is normal? What is the clinical effect of supplementation? Does it decrease morbidity or all cause mortality?

There are specific tests for vitamins and vitamin D supplementation is all the rage nowadays. I’m still not seeing convincing data on long term clinical outcomes, only correlative data that is difficult to control.

@Rarebear I only have anecdotal data for vitamin D, I really didn’t believe it would help me, but the muscle related pain relief is drastic. Many people report the same. I guess what I would ask is if a patient complains of muscle pain and is below 30, would you consider recommending the D? On the chance it might help? They are below normal for the new ranges of D anyway, so it can be seen as justifiable. You could do your own mini experiment and not even tell them it is for the pain. See what they report.

” Short-term supplementation until hospital discharge significantly reduced the duration of all hospital admissions in poorly nourished South African children, and supplementation for six months after discharge improved appetite and nutritional indicators.
AUTHORS’ CONCLUSIONS:
Vitamin A supplementation is beneficial and safe in children with HIV infection. Zinc is safe and appears to have similar benefits on diarrhoeal morbidity in children with HIV as in children without HIV infection. Multiple micronutrient supplements have some clinical benefit in poorly nourished children with HIV infection.Further trials of single supplements (vitamin D, zinc, and selenium) are required to build the evidence base. The long-term effects and optimal composition and dosing of multiple micronutrient supplements require further investigation in children with diverse HIV disease status.” PubMed

Good points.

I will have to add that ancedotely the people who live the most fulfilled life in the assisted living home I work in take supplements and one or no prescription meds. Though correlation doesnt imply causation. Could be attributed as a sign the person takes their health more seriously and is more conscientious. Or just better genes etc.

@Aster Yes, but they are mal nourished, so not surprising supplements help. Although, my point about the vitamin D is that many Americans are very low in that nutrient. HIV patients are probably easier to measure than women who just complain about aches.

Aster. Can you give me the PMID on that reference?

Look at these statistics.

They measured the amount of D in a small sampling of vitamin D pills and the amount of D actually in the pill was all too often way off. I’m sure it happens with many supplements.

@Rarebear http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24114375

I am suddenly on two different antibiotics for an infection on part of my surgery incision. My sis and daughter are suggesting I take probiotics. Docs. never mentioned it, but I guess a container of Greek yogurt daily for a while can’t hurt.

I’ve been poking a hole in some vit. E gel tabs in order to rub the oil on my incision scar. The only danger is my impaling myself on the nail scissors I use for poking.

@gailcalled Sorry to hear that. I know when I needed an antibiotic for my incision it wasn’t the type of antibiotic that kills off the good bacteria in great numbers like some antibiotics. I don’t know what you are taking though. Probiotics can’t hurt. I usually just buy the pills, but I hate yogurt. Beware some yogurt has almost zero live cultures, or very low, so unless your yogurt boasts about the organisms, it probably doesn’t have any in therapeutic quantities.

You can probably just keep an antibiotic ointment on the scars to have them heal well if the vitamin E tabs are difficult to deal with. I think the most important thing is keeping it moist.

I think the most important thing is keeping it moist.

That is very bad advice as well as routinely using an antibiotic ointment on my scar. All the people who have and are helping me heal never suggested either of these.

I do have a bottle of Vit.E oil for the scar now.

@gailcalled My sister is an expert in wound healing. Doesn’t matter, you know I am not a doctor and I wrote, “I think,” not “I know.” You’re smart. You know not to follow medical advice on the internet, always consult with your physician.

To clarify, moist with ointment, not water. Doesn’t matter. If you like your vitamin D use that.

I love my nightly Vitamin E capsule facial mask. ^_^

@JLeslie How does vitamin D come into this?

I “know to follow medical advice on the internet”? Ah, I see you have corected that to make more sense.

@gailcalled Here’s a link for you on care for incisions. The doctors in the ER and on the hospital floor I was on didn’t know this information either, I have the scars to prove it. I am pretty pissed about it, and don’t understand it. Letting wounds “dry” is a the thinking from many moons ago. But, you are putting E oil on it, which is keeping it moist.

Typo. E not D. Isn’t that obvious? You brought up the vitamin oil you are putting on it.

What don’t you understand about you knowing not to substitute internet medical advice for your doctor’s advice? Are you being deliberately obtuse? Just to push me?

When I was talking to theUW team on liver transplants I asked about scarring. She mentioned they had made many improvements on wound care .. including the moist and massage methods and diet. I didn’t go into details with her. So I don’t know much else. I did some follow up readin later and for the first part they say a saline solution and then when you clean to remove bandage premoisten with saline again then rinse out saline and and then soak the bottom bandages leaving the top ones wet. Beyond that stage of healing I don’t know

@Aster Thanks. It’s a meta-analysis and truth be told, I hate meta-analyses because they’re so difficult to interpret. Often they’re garbage in-garbage out, but this one seemed okay and I think their conclusions are reasonable.

@snowberry As I was poking around looking for more explanation on my above paragraph, I came across this article on Science Based Medicine. http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ive-been-prescribed-an-antibiotic-should-i-take-a-probiotic/

@Rarebear: no serious side effects were associated with probiotics. The review called for more studies to better establish the appropriate probiotic species, dose, duration and side effect profile.

There’s the rub. But a daily cup of Greek yogurt with some fresh organic blueberries that I froze in August can do no harm, apparently.

I’d like to perform a study on what percentage of studies call for further study.

I’m proposing the hypothesis that 90% of studies performed in the last 10 years call for further study on the subject. It’s like your boss asking if you think your work is valuable and should continue.

However, further study may be needed.

@gailcalled Are you referring to me? I was the one asking @Rarebear if there was a way to test for what good bacterias were already present in the digestive tract and wondering if too much of even the good bacteria might be bad. I stil don’t think 10 days of whatever OTC thing you choose for lactobicilli and the like or your Greek yogurt will cause any harm, especially while you are on antibiotics. People eat daily Greek yogurt all the time. What Greek yogurt do you eat?

Thanks @Rarebear

@JLeslie: My comment was directed to @Rarebear and is a quote from the study (which I read carefully) he referred to in his comment directly above my last one.

@gailcalled My mistake. You often refer to something I said without naming me, so I was just checking.

They can’t fully replace vitamins contained in out food, because the processing by the body depends on the combination of food content.