Why are you pro-Israel?

I am pro-Israel because as a people, the Jewish people are worthy of a homeland in their ancient land. They have been persecuted for millennia, and almost exterminated by the Nazi’s.

That’s why I am “pro-Israel” in its existence.

I am pro-Israel in its current struggle (although not unquestioning) because they face a foe in Hamas that wishes their extermination and refuses a peaceful coexistence. The 1948 partitioning was met with violence by the Palestinian residents. Yet an attempt at a peaceful existence would have led to prosperity for all.

define “pro israel”

Lots of reasons. But a big one is that I can’t think of a reason to be anti-Israel

@ragingloli “pro israel” in the sense that it must defend it’s existence against the Israel/U.S. made Hamas.

@pleiades
Still a loaded question.
Yes, Israel has the right to exist and to defend itself, just like any other country in the world.
What it does not have, is the right to commit borderline genocide and indiscriminate mass killing of civilians.
There are clear limits, especially for a member of what we call the “westliche Wertegemeinschaft” (community of western values), to what is morally, ethically and legally permissible in the act of self defence.

Counter question:
Are you pro palestine? In the sense that Palestine has a right to exist as a sovereign nation, with the right to defend itself?

I am Pro-Israili-People, Anti-Current-Extremist-Israili-Administration. Just as I am Pro-Palestinian-People and Anti-Palestinian-Extremist.

I would like to see Israel return to it’s original boarders, with a wide defensive neutral border zone that cannot be inhabited. I think the US should only supply Israel with defensive weaponry such as Iron dome rockets and systems, and not supply them with offensive weapons such as artillery which are the wrong tools for fighting an enemy entrenched in a civilian population.

The current situation is collective punishment of the entire Palestinian population because there are some extremists in their midsts. Imagine if England had used the same tactics in Northern Ireland to combat the NRA. Instead of arresting, trying, convicting, and sentencing the INDIVIDUALS directly responsible.

Everytime Israel shells a UN shelter to try to kill a small handful of legitimate targets they are creating hundreds more sympathizers to the extremist cause, guaranteeing the conflict will perpetuate for another generation, and deepens the divisions between nations. Israel should be trying to improve the Palestinian economy and not the current strategy as was leaked in 2008:

“Israeli officials have confirmed to Embassy officials on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis.”

Rich people don’t blow themselves up with suicide vests. People with hopes and dreams of a prosperous future don’t do that. The way to combat extremists is to make the average Palestinian prosperous and happy, so when the extremist recruiter comes knocking on their door they get told to “fuck off.”

Israel has lost the moral high ground. They have killed an estimated 70% civilians (according to the neutral UN observers) in the latest round of violence. The Palestinian “terrorists” have killed 64 Israeli soldiers and 3 Israeli civilians which is about 4.5% civilian casualty rate. When the “good guys” have a civilian casualty rate that’s over 15 times as bad as the “bad guys” it makes you start to re-evaluate who has the moral high-ground.

I’m not pro anything where people feel the need to kill others because of stupid shit written in a fantasy novel.

All sides of that conflict are at fault and reprehensible. I’m tired of America supporting any of that bullshit. Let them duke it out. The US need not choose sides. That’s my biggest issue.

@ragingloli It’s bad taste to discuss Israel and Genocide with a German.
I support Israel’s right to exist, and I think they have been reserved in their response.
I would have evicted all Muslims from the country.

@filmfann
And here you defile the memory of the holocaust.

I’m pro Israel, because I think it is a legitimate country that has the right to defend itself.

I’m also Jewish, so it would be very difficult for me to be anti-Israel, although not impossible. I am not blindly nor militantly pro Israel. I can understand why the Palestinians feel a right to the land and why some Arabs and Persians resent Israel’s existence and how it was established.

There also is a small part of me, a selfish part, also paranoid, that thinks it is good for the Jewish people to have a homeland. The American in me likes secular governnents where the citizens are equal and feel free. Israel des not quite meet that standard, but it is impossible for them with how things are.

My Jewish, girly, kumbaya, self, sometimes doesn’t have the stomach for the conflict, and wish Israel was established in a safer region where people did not hate them; but rather, valued their ingenuity, their culture, their knowledge. I’m not a Zionist, I am not obsessed with the Jews being returned to that land, I just want the Jewish people to be able to have a safe place to go to and build their lives. It’s sounds almost ridiculous as I write it. Ridiculous and ironic.

Also, being Jewish, I really understand fighting back ten fold. Israel will pummel the Palestinians trying to show them to not even try to start anything. Thing is, it doesn’t seem to work.

I watched Al Jazeera last night, they were reporting from Gaza, bombs dropping. People were getting harmed, some killed. A few Palestinians when interviewed, both men and women, and it was not a group the reporter talked to together, it was while he was moving around from place to place, were cursing other Arabs for doing nothing. I was actually happy to see that. Not that I was happy they were cursing people, but happy that at least some Palestinians see the rest of the Arab world does not really come to their aid. Not that I know of. One person said God should punish the Arabs (or maybe he said Muslims?) before the Israelis. One woman was upset and said that they didn’t warn them this time, basically reinforcing for me that Israel does indeed usually warn when they are going to bomb.

The Palestinians keep lobbing rockets over, they killed some Israelis. The Palestinians are digging tunnels to kidnap and kill Israelis. I don’t believe the Israelis want Palestinians to die, except for some particular targets. The dome Israel has stops most of the rockets and bombs. from what I understand there has been several calls for a cease fire and the Palestinains have either not agreed or have broken any cease fire so far that has tried to be established. What is Israel supposed to do?

After 5,000 years of being oppressed, enslaved, and killed on and off throughout history the holocaust was the last straw. That shit will never happen again. Try to come get us and we will slaughter you. America, the UK, Germany, China, and you can name many other countries that would be no different, they would fight back if someone was bombing them. The Palestinians know the Israelis will fight back hard, and yet they continue to provoke Israel instead of negotiate and make peace. It’s suicide. Israel does spend months and years not reacting to a lot of the crap the Palestinains try and Hezzbollah, and other groups.

@JLeslie “What is Israel supposed to do?”

Give the Palestinian people a nation of their own. Stop provoking the Palestinian people by expanding settlements. Stop the economic warfare they’ve been waging against the Palestinian people. When violence does break out, use special forces fire teams to apprehend or kill the perpetrators, not blow up buildings full of civilians. Respect international laws of war.

This is a pretty good article in the New Yorker that shows the other side. Here is another one from Salon.

Any country (Israel) that is surrounded by vultures and terrorists have my support. I support Israel 100% and wish my Country would do more to assist them in their struggle against evil.

The question comes down to whether Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state. Given Jewish history and in view of the current rise in European antisemitism, I have to support having a Jewish homeland. Being Jewish, although an atheist, I am not without prejudice on this. I would certainly oppose having the U.S. declared as a Christian nation. It just does not seem to be asking that much to have one relatively small area not particularly rich in natural resources set aside as a Jewish state. There is no reason why the Palestinians could not be resettled in other Arab countries. Given its religious significance to Judaism, Islam and Christianity, I would be if favor of having Jerusalem put under international control.

[Mod says] Moved to Social with the OPs permission.

@LostInParadise
”There is no reason why the Palestinians could not be resettled in other Arab countries.”
There is one: Palestine’s right to exist.

I am both pro Israeli and pro Palestinian in the sense that I believe that they both have a right to defend themselves, it is my experience that some Americans give Israel a free pass on bad behavior. i think that the US should consider cutting aid to Israel if they cannot curb attacks on civilian populations.

Pretty much what @1TubeGuru and @gorillapaws said. I don’t blindly support everything Israel does just because the U.S. supports Israel. Both states have a right to exist but neither one of them seems to acknowledge that. So saying things like “the Palestinians/Israelis were there first!” (at whatever time period) doesn’t really matter to me. They’re both there now and they both need to figure out a way to live together. The way it is now with denying the other’s right to exist doesn’t work.

@LostInParadise Not to take sides with Ahmadinejad, because I think he is a horrible man, why do the Jews deserve Israel when the Nazis were the ones killing us off? If the argument is going to be that the Jews get Israel because of the holicausy. Not just the Germans, they had allies, 9 out of 10 Jewish people in Poland were murdered. But let’s use Germany for simplicity. Why not give us half of Germany? The land where the sins were committed.

@gorillapaws Didn’t Israel give back land and remove settlements not too many years ago. Why was that not considered a start towards peace? Will the Palestinians ever except a two state solution? Everyone talks about Israel, but I don’t know if I have heard a Palestinian with any real authority in recent years ever say they are fine living side by side with Israel and are just worried about where the border lies. I could easily be wrong.

@ragingloli Why is that land so important to the Palestinians at this point? They have not been able to live in peace. It does not seem like it is such a great place to live. Other Arab countries have prosperity, infrastructure. Jews left their countries when it totally sucked for them, it’s unfortunate, but it has happened to many cultures and religions. Other Arab countries have drven the Christians and Jews out. A lot of Jews wound up in America from eastern and western Europe, some went to Israel. They were citizens of their countries in Europe, don’t you think they wanted their country to just treat them well so they could stay in the place they had been all their lives? Now we have resettled, and we have made good lives for ourselves. Sticking it out is not working well for the Palestinians. Is there culture so different from other Arab cultures that they need their own country? Have people in history persecuted the Palestinians specifically? Sure Muslims have been persecuted, but the Palestinians specifically where they need their own homeland so if there is a genocide against Palestinians they need a place to go.

”Why is that land so important to the Palestinians at this point?”
It. Is. Their. Home.
And that is the only answer your convoluted attempt to deny a people their right to a sovereign country deserves.

I don’t want to deny them anything. I want the original borders. I have said that on a ton of Q’s recently.

Can the Jews go back to Germany, Russia, Poland, Lithuania, and Latvia and get their land back? All their property?

I would have no problem with them emigrating and becoming German/Russian/Polish/etc citizens.

All 18 million of us all at once? I might consider it. I don’t really have land to claim, but I think Germany is beautiful and I like the medical system.

My point is not whether Israel is going about this problem the right way. My point is about the Palestinians living in a place under attack and from what I understand not the best conditions in general. Do you fully believe if the Israelis only live within the borders from the original agreement that the Palestinians will just calm down and be happy with it? If so I am all for trying. So far I have my doubts though. I do think some Palestinians will be satisfied, but it is the militant ones who matter, because they are the ones who are going to shoot the rockets.

The original borders are stupid.
They cut both the Israeli and Palestinian territory into 3 isolated pieces each.
An untenable situation, and in my opinion one of the main causes for the current conflict.

@ragingloli Look I am mainly pro-Israel (to circle back to the question) because now it has been over 70 years and that is where those people live. If the Palestinians would not be so hateful maybe they would simply be living in Israel with equal rights. They could be living in the only democracy in the middle east, where the people have somewhat of say in their government. Instead of Jews being paranoid about their Arab citizens, they simply could all live together. Like I said kumbaya.

So if not those borders than what? It really sounds like you think the Jews should just leave. I want to give you an opportunity to explain though. Now the Jews have a few generations there, that is their home. I can’t help it that some countries in Europe wanted to take over everything and then they devided it up poorly. Hell, America is a result of Europeans conquering this land. Australia was a place for the UK to dump their criminals. The whole world is practically settled this way.

From the beginning the territory should have been split in half. I am thinking Palestine in the north, and Israel in the south.
That way, both would have access to the sea, Israel would have access to the gulf of aqaba, and would only have to deal with Egypt and Jordan, and not with Syria or Lebanon.

also, if the US had not toppled the Iranian democratically elected government in 1953, Iran would likely be a democracy today

Agree with @BeenThereSaidThat

I feel @gorillapaws said it best. IT’s so destructive & sad for the people.

@ragingloli The half and half makes sense to me at first glance, I just don’t know enough about the region to really give a definite answer. Are you saying you think they should redivide the country now in that manner?

As far as Iran, it is very sad. I grew up with many Iranian schoolmates and friends, and also an American friend who lived there for a few years (actually my Iranian friends all eventually became American I would assume) and it is awful what happened to that country. Everyone I know from Iran is wonderful, I can’t think of one bad thing to say. They fled out of that country, some barely escaping with their lives. Iran is often held up as an example of how American intereference can make this worse.

I really need to read up on the Palestinains, because I saw someone post that basically Arafat invented the Palestinian people. I want to see what that is all about.

Given your definition, of course Israel must defend itself. People assume from my comments that I am anti Israel. This isn’t true. My position is that Israel’s long term prospects in its present location are worse than grim. The unraveling of its neighbors, the critically expanding shortages, and horrifying demographic facts regarding the Palestinians, render the very words “Promised Land” a cruel mockery. There are so many ironies surrounding Israel and its dilemma that the list grows tiresome. But just consider the incredible fact that of all the people on earth, it’s the Jews who find themselves compelled to deny a persecuted people their homeland.

@stanleybmanly I don’t know why people bring up the “irony.” The Jews believe that land to be theirs just as the Palestinians do. The Jews have been through hell and back, slaughter, enslaved, the list goes on and on. After this most recent holocaust in Europe they have decided “never again.” Their reaction seems pretty logical to me. They, we, will disappear if we don’t fight people who want to kill us. From the Israeli perspective they are defending themselves.

I agree. My point is this. Israel is in a place renowned for its scarcity of resources. Frankly, there is not enough to go around. This at bottom is the REAL reason for the never ending trouble. Now you may not think that it in view of their history, the fact that the Jews by necessity are forced to deny the Palestinians access to their former homeland is not ironic. But it certainly strikes me as one of the crueler jokes in the history of the world.

You want another irony? If and when the Jews ever do leave “the land of milk and honey”, the results will be catastrophic for the Palestinians.

@stanleybmanly I always wonder about that too. When the Jews leave, if they ever do, what happens? Is there peace in the Middle East? I think we all agree total peace in the Middle East does not hinge on Israel. Will the Palestinians have a country like Israel with incredible medical care, social systems, education, infrastructure? Will other Arab groups try to take the land or will they actually allow the Palestinians to live there peacefully? The Israelis would bomb Israel to smithereens in their wake I think if they ever made a mass exodus. The Palestinians would have to rebuild. People have tried to explain to me that while the Palestinians are under occupation of course they can not be prosperous, but I think it is also a cultural issue. Not all Palestinian people, I am talking specifically about this region of the world and a large enough portion of the population that affects their society.

Why specifically do you say catastrophic?

As far as the joke, I do see what you are getting at. I think so much of the Israeli Palestinian conflict is about persepective. Each side has their persepective of the events. I decided a long time ago that during a fight there is not always a wrong and a right, sometimes both people are right.

I say catastrophic, because the end of Israel means the end of what feeble economy exists for the Palestinians. In addition, it would mean the end of urgency and the drying up of aid. There would be inevitable fighting among the many factions for political hegemony, and an expansion of the current tribal/religious hell already raging in the region.

I wonder what percentage of the Palestinians are in the frame of mind that everything will get much better once Israel is gone? I also wonder how many Paestinians would prefer to be in another country even if they do get the land. If they had the means to get out and settle somewhere else, how many would grab the opportunity?

I wonder what type of country the Palestinians want at heart? A democracy? A theocracy? A secular government? What is their picture or fantasy of their “new” country?

There is not and there will not be any democracies in any Islamic country. The best that can be hoped for are parodies of what we call democracy such as exists in Turkey. When people talk of creating democratic states in the boiling cauldron of the Middle East, it is a virtual admission of just plain fantasy thinking. The appalling failure of the Bush administration to recognize the basic impossibility of a democratic Iraq was inexcusable. A simple glance at the region should convince anyone who looks that it is no coincidence that every stable government in the region (except Israel) is imbued with the same traits. They are all without exception highly autocratic, brutally repressive and thoroughly corrupt. The inability of Islam to reconcile with modernity virtually guarantees these results, and to anticipate any other outcome is the height of folly.

If Israel handed over their country to the Palestinians and left forever, a year later Isreal would be a falling down filthy cesspool of neglect. Plus the fighting would continue. They would start fighting with each other. The Palestinians have a history of hatred and breed it in their children from birth.

@BeenThereSaidThat So, you are almost saying Palestinians are just born bad? I can’t go there. I think it has to do mostly with their circumstance. Many Israelis are fairly rough around the edges, because I think they grow up in an environment of mistrusting their neighbors, everyone does military service, and they are taught how a lot of the world is against them, and people have hated the Jews for centuries. Israel probably has a lot of Jews that had lived though the holocaust or children of those people. The Palestinians also have lived in an environment of hatred it seems to me. It’s hard not to be hateful when you feel oppressed.

@filmfann It’s bad taste to discuss Israel and Genocide with a German.

Why?

I can’t decide whether I’m Pro-Israel or Pro-Palestine. I really don’t like all the fighting going on down there though… It’s so sad…