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SQUEEKY2's avatar

Should there be a time limit on when a question, can be pulled by the mods for editing?

Asked by SQUEEKY2 (12951points) August 12th, 2014

The question I asked about my Dad’s house was pulled by the Mods , saying it had to many typo’s and run on sentences.
That is fine but a day later and over forty answers?
Are we getting a touch bored?
Are we getting a touch petty?

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42 Answers

SQUEEKY2's avatar

I’m saying if you don’t catch it in say the first 12 hours let it go.
I’m supposed to be ok with crappy drivers, not everyone has a university degree in writing.

Mimishu1995's avatar

I don’t think so. Suppose you ask a question then you are out for more than 12 hours. When you come back you lose the question. Isn’t that frustrating? And I am the one who is sometimes out for more than 12 hours.

At least when you edit the question and put it back, you can still wait for answers.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@Mimishu1995 That’s different your talking about the asker fixing the question, and ok, if the mods catch it and it takes you over 12hours to fix it fine, but not the other way round, and no one answered OH my you misspelled a to and have a run on sentence.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

I think I need to take a break from this site for awhile, sometimes it drives me insane.

Earthbound_Misfit's avatar

The mods aren’t here all the time. I imagine there could be 12 hours when none are about. So if people log in and post questions that are filled with errors, they’re going to have to be left there if your rule was implemented.

Have you tried Grammarly? Or something similar. You can put your question text in a text box and your writing will be checked for errors. I think you can do that for free. It might help you to avoid making so many errors that your questions are pulled.

Aethelwine's avatar

It does seem silly to pull a question when it’s been up for a day. I looked at the question and was following it. I love the northwoods. Now I know why I wasn’t getting any new activity for the question.

You can easily fix the typos, but I know it’s frustrating after a day of responses. I’d probably put my hands up too.

SavoirFaire's avatar

[Mod Says] The moderators are not omniscient, so we may not see a question until it is flagged by other users. And if a question is not flagged until the day after a question is asked, then that may be the first time a problem is noticed. We are more particular about questions than answers in part because questions can be edited. It is also the founders’ request that we be strict with them.

Looking at the revision log, I can see that you weren’t even asked to make the corrections yourself. All of the errors were corrected for you, so all you had to do was copy and paste. Yet you’ve sent it back twice without making the changes. Perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems to me that it would have been easier to submit a corrected version of the question than to ask this second question complaining about the situation.

Kardamom's avatar

@SavoirFaire Why would the corrections be made for her, instead of BY her?

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@SavoirFaire I did correct it twice but this run on sentence BS is getting to me, hope I did it ok for the Mod Gods this time around.
You know I don’t have a damn university degree in writing, I’m a truck driver not some English Professor .
I wish people would be as picky about their damn driving as the Mods are about the writing standards.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Oh and it was posted in social are not the standards supposed to be a little more relaxed in social?

thorninmud's avatar

@Kardamom In situations where a user may be having trouble seeing the problem with their text, the mods may send them a corrected example so that they can see one way to bring their text in line with the standards. They’re not required to use that corrected version in their edited text, but they can if they want. At least, it should help them understand the kind of corrections needed. This is different from the mods going in and making the corrections to the post themselves.

Pachy's avatar

Here’s a thought. Why not we take modding as a benign learning opportunity—whenever it occurs.

thorninmud's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 No one is expecting you to write like a scholar. No one is judging you. No one is scolding you. Look, there aren’t many situations in adult life where you’ve got a team of people working with you to make you look good.

I’m not a professional driver. I’m sure I could benefit from having you riding shotgun with me when I drive, showing me where I could do better. The roads would be a better place if everyone had that kind of support. That’s the kind of support the mods provide on Fluther.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 The difference between General and Social is what kind of answers are allowed. The writing standards are the same in all three sections.

And for the record, I’m pretty picky about driving.

ibstubro's avatar

On the flip side, I’ve reported questions that had serious English flaws, and been told that the question and already been posted too long and received too many answers to be modded, @SQUEEKY2.

I recently had a question modded that had received several answers, including at least one awesome answer, that showed more insight than I had expected. I needed to ‘flesh the question out’ more.

Yet, “Who is Guilty?” is seen as an appropriate Fluther question.

canidmajor's avatar

oh, good grief.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@ibstubro Just because 24 hours is not the limit doesn’t mean there is no limit at all. We’re not going to moderate questions from 2012 here in 2014, for example, particularly when the asker is no longer around. It’s also worth noting that moderating does not permanently remove questions or answers. Once the edit is approved, all of the answers—including the awesome answers—are back for everyone to see. Why, then, should the presence of a good answer be a reason not to edit the question? Editing does nothing but improve the question.

Finally, you misrepresent my recent question. The title was not “Who is guilty?” It was “Who is guilty (see details)?” The addition of ”(see details)” has long been considered an appropriate way of indicating that there is more to the question when a full explanation would violate the long title rule. It indicates that the asker has taken the time to clarify in the description what would not fit in the title. That said, PM me a better title and I will happily edit the question. But in the meantime, please try to understand that misrepresenting the facts doesn’t help your case.

longgone's avatar

^ “Once the edit is approved, all of the answers—including the awesome answers—are back for everyone to see.”

How did I not know that yet?!

jca's avatar

What happens when a question that’s been up a long time is modded (or is modded and not edited by the OP for a long time, for whatever reason) is that when the question is corrected and resubmitted, and then the mods allow it back into the feed, it goes into its original spot. So if everyone else has been asking questions as usual, the “original spot” is now buried about two pages down. So new posters aren’t going to respond, if they scroll down the way I do, stopping where they last visited. So the question may as well be abandoned and re-written, but then all the great answers (like what @SQUEEKY2 said he had) are now gone forever.

I know that’s not an issue that the mods can change, as it’s a Fluther format issue. However, it does make sense that if a question has a bunch of answers and has been up for a while, maybe the mods could be a bit more tolerant.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@jca THANK YOU! that is what I’m getting at, after a day and so many answers to then pull it for editing seems petty, I know the mods can’t be here 24/7 but come on a day later seems like some one wanted to play school teacher.
Not one of the answers bitched about a run on sentence or the fact I spelled to(o) wrong..
If it is caught in say the first 5 to 10 hours I’m more than fine with the fact they want it PERFECT, after that LET IT GO!!!!!!!!!!!!! and go ahead and sue me for too many marks!!!!

ibstubro's avatar

@SavoirFaire I did not misrepresent. The question is “Who is guilty?”
”(see details)” is a parenthetical attachment.
I have no doubt that many of the moderators here would send the question to editing, were it not asked my a moderator.

I like you, and I value your participation and moderation very, very highly, @SavoirFaire. Just noting that I believe the body of the question should give some kind of indication whether it’s of interest to a potential answerer. I have little doubt that, if I asked a question, “Who is green?” then went on to ask who follows the Greenbay Packers, that it would be moderated for editing.

“Who is guilty?” (see details)

“Who is guilty?” (see details)

“Who is guilty?” (see details)

Perhaps, “Philosophical question: Who is guilty in this situation? (see details)” would have covered it.

And I have reported an annoyingly grammatically incorrect question within 24–36 hours and been told that there was already too much traffic to request editing.

I’m not being contrary for contrariness sake, but trying to help standardize the moderation process, as that’s the only way Fluther can continue without 24/7 moderation.

Don’t take my interaction about Fluther personally. I caution all Jellies the same. If I can bring my argument home with an example or quote, I will. It’s not an attack, but a perceived aberration?

longgone's avatar

@Anyone: If questions get edited, do they lose their followers in the process?

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@longgone No, have you never had a question pulled for editing?
The Mods want absolutely perfect punctuation and grammar, I have had questions pulled because they felt it wasn’t worded properly, or didn’t space a comma,now it’s all about a run on sentence, they feel it attracts more people to the site, if the questions are perfect in grammar, and punctuation, SOMETIMES I think they get a little carried away in their quest for perfection,BUT then again that is my opinion and oh my look at my run on sentence.

thorninmud's avatar

@longgone No, when a question gets sent back for editing it’s just like hitting the “pause” button. Once it’s back online it picks up exactly where it left off; the only thing different about it is the edits.

jca's avatar

@thorninmud: And that it’s now buried way down in the feed, where, if you do like I do, you’re only scrolling as far as what you’ve last seen or maybe a bit farther. Therefore, many people are not now going to see that question since it may be two or three pages down (depending on how long it took the OP to edit it and how long it took the mods to review and repost).

thorninmud's avatar

@jca If it’s an older question (as this question is asking about), then regular visitors would likely have seen it already anyway before it got sent back. Getting buried is, I think, more of a problem for new questions that get pulled before many users have read through the boards. If the editing takes a long time, then there is a real risk that it won’t get many views.

It’s important to move Qs through editing as quickly as possible. They can get hung up at various points along the way. One problem is timing: if a Q gets modded and the asker doesn’t check in for awhile, it will languish. If a Q gets returned when a mod isn’t around, it will languish. There’s not much that can be done about these cases. But we’ve also seen many cases where a Q gets sent back and the asker keeps bouncing the Q back with incomplete corrections (or none at all), or with additional errors. Some Qs get sent back 3 or 4 times, just because the asker unnecessarily protracts the whole process. That can easily keep the Q down for over a day. Meanwhile, other users are getting their Qs back up within a few minutes just by quickly making the requested changes.

ibstubro's avatar

Unnecessarily protract the process:

Your question doesn’t have enough details to provide a good prompt for discussion. Try adding more specifics or personal details. You put this in General; but it’s not really asking a question. “Can you believe…” prompts yes/no replies. You then ask if anyone lives in the states that beat yours out – again, that’s a Y/N reply. Please clarify the question and use phrasing that will elicit the types of responses you are hoping to get—especially if you want it to stay in General.

And this in response to my “What quick, simple changes do I need to make for the question to re-post?” question.

thorninmud's avatar

@ibstubro Great example. This was a Q that could have gone straight into Social virtually as is. Keeping it in General, though, complicates things tremendously, because the nature of the Q is such that just answering the Q as stated (which is the short leash users are given in General) leads to a very limited range of answers. To make it suitable for General would have required reworking the Q in such a way that it solicited more expansive answers that still were direct answers to the Q. This isn’t like a grammar correction where the mods can just tell you exactly what to do.

This is something people misunderstand about the whole Social vs General thing. Some members post a Q in General because they like the idea of restricting off-topic responses, but they have a pretty liberal idea of how far comments can range before it’s off-topic. They may not have a problem when the discussion goes off on a tangent that they find interesting. But posting in General doesn’t give the asker the prerogative to set the limits of digression. The mods are going to make that call. That means that if you want more leeway for digression than the mods allow in General, you need to post in Social.

ibstubro's avatar

I would have been good with just sending it to Social, as is, if that had been given as an option, @thorninmud.

thorninmud's avatar

@ibstubro You do know that users have the option to request a move to Social, right? Reading the mod’s response, it seems pretty clear that the problem has to do with the Q being in General.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@jca In addition to what @thorninmud has said (i.e., that older questions are already “buried” anyways), it bears noting that edited questions go back into the “Questions for You” queue once they are approved. That way, anyone who might have missed them during the editing period would still be alerted to the question’s existence. It is also worth noting that question was down for 15 minutes before @SQUEEKY2 sent it back for approval the first time (but without the needed corrections). The only reason it took as long as it did (two hours) was because @SQUEEKY2 refused to actually make the required changes.

I would also like to mention the steps taken by the moderator in question to minimize the inconvenience. First, they checked to see that @SQUEEKY2 was currently on the site (meaning he would be able to make the changes right away). Second, they wrote out exactly what was needed so that he could copy and paste it into his question if he so desired (though he also had the option of editing it in his own way so long as it met the guidelines). Third, they stayed around to make sure that the question could be approved as soon as it had been edited. The entire delay in getting the question back up is the result of @SQUEEKY2 refusing to edit and posting this question instead.

@ibstubro There are two possible things you could be reasonably referring to by “the question.” You could be referring to the question title, or to the complete question (title + details). Given the context, it was clear that you were referring to the title. And given that you misquoted the title, you absolutely did misrepresent it. There is no rational way of denying this. The misrepresentation may have been accidental, but that does not change the fact that misrepresentation occurred.

As for your doubts about whether it was spared from editing because it was asked by a moderator, you are again being disingenuous. You flagged two other questions at the same time that had the exact same title format, and none of them were moderated. So if you had exercised due diligence and kept up with the questions you flagged, you would have known for a fact that my status as a moderator had nothing to do with my question remaining up.

I don’t find the Green Bay Packers example at all compelling, by the way, because it does not strike me as a parallel case. I understand why you think it is, but you seem overly caught up in surface technicalities. Moderating decisions, however, are made with an eye towards context—including the question of how oblique a title reference is. The existence of an obvious alternate title is one thing we consider when choosing to moderate because we try not to moderate a question for its title without being able to offer an acceptable alternative.

Side note: most people who flag for title problems offer an alternative. You do not.

As for other possible questions that might be asked under the same title, the same point applies. There are obvious alternatives in the cases of Ferguson, ransomware, and Robin Williams. By contrast, the alternative title that you offered for my question—which I have changed, by the way, so thank you for the suggestion—is hardly more descriptive than the original title. It adds the fact that I am asking a philosophical question, which I agree is a useful keyword, but otherwise does not clarify the situation.

An additional point—which was made to me by the former Community Manager during my initial training—is that some questions are such that their titles cannot be both fully descriptive and short enough to avoid violating the rule against overly long titles. This is why the “see details” convention exists. Moreover, it is the questioner who bears the risks when using the “see details” tag. People may ignore the question because they don’t want to read the details to know what the question is about. I accepted that risk when posting my question.

Regarding other flags you have made, many factors go into determining whether a question will be sent back for editing. Time frame is one of them, but it is not dispositive. So the fact that it may have been an important factor in some decisions—and the one reported to you on the occasion you are thinking of—does not mean that a certain amount of time passing is always and in every case an absolute indemnity from moderation. Again, context matters. Otherwise, robots could do the job.

Finally, I do not ever take arguments personally. That you used my question as an example is irrelevant. Had you used someone else’s (e.g., one of the other questions you flagged at the same time for the same reason), you would have gotten exactly the same sort of answer. If you receive a forceful reply from me, it is only because I refuse to be convinced by any but the best of arguments—and the only way to test if an argument is any good is to see if it can withstand forceful scrutiny.

It is in that spirit that I hope you will not take it personally when I say that if you are really trying to be helpful and are not being contrary for contrariness’ sake, then you have taken the worst possible approach in doing so. I will not get into the details about your flagging habits here. That goes beyond what it is appropriate to make public for the purposes of adequately answering this question. But I am happy to send you a message explaining the problem if you are interested.

Suffice it to say for now that the key word in your answer is “perceived.” You lack the information to know what is and is not an aberration. I have no problem with Meta questions about moderator actions, and I am happy to answer them in my free time. I am confident that the rest of the team feels more or less the same way (some more, some less). But I think it is worth keeping in mind that you have no information about 99.99% of the moderation here, and have been frequently informed that you are misconstruing the rules in your arguments against particular moderator actions. These are important background facts to keep in mind when “trying to help standardize the moderation process.”

jca's avatar

@SavoirFaire: My comment was not specifically in reference to whatever occurred with @SQUEEKY2, it was more in general. I have gotten modded few times, after experiencing what I commented on. For this reason, I found it’s easier to abandon the question (which is not the best solution, necessarily, because all of the comments are lost) rather than edit and repost the original.

longgone's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 Hm. I can’t remember…I know I once had a question pulled because I had spelled “girls” wrong (“gurls”). I wasn’t about to argue there ;)

@thorninmud Thank you for clarifying. In short, unless the asker or all mods are out for a long time, there really is nothing to worry about.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@SavoirFaire my main bitch is that it was found to not be up to fluthers standards a day later, for wanting perfection it seems a little late,also the big complaint was a run on sentence, I don’t really understand run on sentences the whole details wasn’t that long to be a run on sentence.
I don’t have a problem for you wanting perfection, what I have the problem is a day later seems really petty, and I guess I missed that I could have just pasted the way the Mod Gods wanted the question posted , sorry will try harder next time.
Maybe PM me and tell me exactly what the hell a run on sentence consists of ,and how not to do it, I never really did that well in English class when I was in school.

longgone's avatar

@SQEEKY2 “What exactly is a run-on sentence” is actually a good question for the entire collective, don’t you agree? I’d be interested to know the answer – I can “sense” a run-on sentence, but I have no idea what the actual rule is.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@longgone good idea, you want to post it or do you want me to?
If ya want me it will have to wait a bit I got to get a bit of house work done before Mrs Squeeky gets home from work.

longgone's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 You do it, whenever you get to it. No rush. I’m way overdue for bed anyway.

Kardamom's avatar

I just like the term flagging habits.

That would be a good question to ask on a psychological exam, or a question to discuss with a potential spouse.

What are your smoking habits?
What are your sexual habits?
What are your eating habits?
What are your flagging habits?

ibstubro's avatar

Me thinks he doth protest too much.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@jca Fair enough. It’s a known issue with the site, and I think just about everyone agrees that it is a problem. Still, I think it was worth mentioning that it doesn’t really apply to the case being discussed in this thread. But you’re right: he potential for moderation to bury new and promising questions is unfortunate. (All the more reason to be extra careful in advance!)

@SQUEEKY2 The question was found to not be up to standards as soon as it was seen. It’s just that it wasn’t seen right away. So while I can understand how it might look from your perspective, you also need to understand how it looked from our perspective: “Oh, a new flag. Yup, looks like it needs editing.” In any case, keep in mind that moderation is purely an editorial act. Like @thorninmud said, no one is judging you. I teach writing, and I’ve still had questions sent back for something I’ve missed. (I hope you got some helpful answers to your question about run-on sentences. If not, let me know and I’ll see if I can write up an explanation. I might recruit another one of our moderators, who is an actual English graduate student.)

@ibstubro I took the time to give you a substantive reply and explain the position, and all you can do is dismiss it without offering any reason? How disappointing. It’s easy to make an accusation. Thus it will always take more words to refute an accusation than it took to make it. If the length of my reply is all you can talk about, then, it is clear you aren’t actually interested in having a dialogue or improving anything. Oh well.

ibstubro's avatar

Sorry, @SavoirFaire.

I thought to tell you I was sorry, that after I flagged your short question I went into the Fluther guidelines and saw that there was no prohibition about asking a question that, in and of itself did not elicit a answer. That surprised me. It seems counter-intuitive to the nature of Fluther, and I think the practice was discouraged on another site I participated on.

Truth told? We (you and me both) are boring me, so I tried to respond whisper in such a way that response was not required.

By all means. Declare victory with my blessing.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@ibstubro Arguments aren’t about victory. They are about inquiry and the exchange of ideas. Or at least, they are supposed to be. But it rarely works out that way on the internet. In any case, I agree that it is best to avoid vaguely worded questions. It’s one reason I rarely ask philosophical questions here (as they are often difficult to summarize).

Now let us be done with this boredom. I’ll see if I can find a cool song to send you via PM.

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