General Question

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

What causes people to be Jesusphobes?

Asked by Hypocrisy_Central (26821points) March 29th, 2015

How are Jesusphobes created? Was it some church folk that hurt folk (with words or condemnation), fear they have to give up their vices, fear they would have to be accountable for how they lived here on Earth? It seems as if some people are so fearful of Jesus they will go to any measure to discount Him, to the point of insults. Does Jesus scare you that much? If he doesn’t would you go out of your way to try and wake people up who want to follow Him that they are backing the wrong horse? Someone in religion beat them up psychologically?

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117 Answers

Response moderated (Unhelpful)
Darth_Algar's avatar

Obviously the only reason someone wouldn’t believe in a myth is because of fear. Are you a Tooth Fairyphobe?

hominid's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central – Is @Darth_Algar correct here? Are you claiming that disbelief is a result of fear? I’m trying to apply this concept to the near-infinite number of things in which I do not hold a positive belief in order to assess my level of fear. Do I not believe in Thor because I’m scared?

Additionally, how does this apply to your beliefs? Can you map your disbelief in other conflicting religious claims or Thor or bigfoot or fairies to fear? I am currently shrinking myself down to the size of a piece of dust and I will be floating in front of you in 5 seconds. On your next inhalation, you will breathe me in. If you do not accept this claim, is it because you are afraid of it?

Pachy's avatar

Lots of reasons, but one’s family upbringing is certainly one.

LostInParadise's avatar

How can I fear something I do not believe in? I do not fear Jesus any more than I fear the boogeyman.

If your religious beliefs are what cause you to act in ways that are socially acceptable then go on believing. I personally do not need to get my moral beliefs from a book, and yes it is possible for atheists to act morally.

What I do fear are fundamentalists of all religions who would impose on the rest of us their narrow views on such things as homosexuality and the theory of evolution and who treat us non-believers as pariahs.

dabbler's avatar

Frankly I suspect there are far more Jesus-phile-phobes, people afraid of Jesus-philes, than there are Jesus-phobes.
Jesus the person isn’t around anymore, but his fans are, and historically they have persecuted and killed countless souls whose only ‘sin’ was not agreeing with them.

thorninmud's avatar

There seems to be more fear of Jesus on the part of believers than non-believers. Isn’t that the whole point of scriptures like this?:

“How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

elbanditoroso's avatar

What’s a Jesusphobe? I can think of several definitions, and each of them would put a different tilt to my answer.

I’m not afraid of Jesus (whatever that means – how can you be afraid of a historical character who might or might not have existed?)

What worries me is the human beings (Jesus-followers) who would like to kill me and people of my religion because I am not a Jesus follower. Those people scare me. So if we track down their blood lust to their belief in Jesus, then I suppose that I am anti-jesus because his followers feel they are taking their orders from him.

Look, the whole religion thing is a lot like guns and gun control. Jesus doesn’t kill, Jesus-lovers do.

Lightlyseared's avatar

So you’re suggesting that the only reason for disbelieving in Jesus is because you are afraid of him?

ucme's avatar

Jesus was just an ordinary man who appeared on Jerusalem’s Got Talent & didn’t make it past the auditions.
His myth endured simply due to bad editing & popularity for open toed sandals.
Fear? Hahahahahahahahahahahaha <hiccup>

wildpotato's avatar

If he doesn’t [scare you] would you go out of your way to try and wake people up who want to follow Him that they are backing the wrong horse?

Last I checked (just now), proselytism is practised mostly by Christian denominations.

Strauss's avatar

I think in many cases it is because the person’s belief has changed, but the deep-seated guilt has not. For example: When I was brought up in the Catholic church, was an altar boy, even attended seminary for a couple years. Several years after I left the seminary, I found my belief system was changing radically. Without going into details, my faith had changed to the extent that it was no longer in line with even “radical” Catholic theology or dogma. Although I had changed in what I believed, I could not, for a long time, call myself an former or ex-Catholic. There was still a small part of me that was full of guilt and fear of damnation because of what I believed. It took me many years to overcome that fear.

I also found that hearing someone preach at to me also tended to trigger that guilt/fear. I don’t think that was “Jesusphobia” as much as my own guilt and fear.

If he doesn’t [scare you] would you go out of your way to try and wake people up who want to follow Him that they are backing the wrong horse?

I think religion/spirituality is an extremely personal decision, based upon personal faith, whether that faith is in the God of Abraham, or His Son, or Buddha, or Quan Yin, or Cosmic Consciousness, or anything else.

I would gladly share my belief system with someone who is interested, but I do not proselytize. If I encourage anything, it is to follow one’s own belief, to the best of one’s ability.

@wildpotato Last I checked proselytism is a big part of many Christian denominations.
It is not exclusive to Christianity. I’ve have been proselytized by devotees of Krishna Consciousness, adherents of Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism, and members of the Church of Scientology, to name a few.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@Yetanotheruser wrote:

I think religion/spirituality is an extremely personal decision, based upon personal faith, whether that faith is in the God of Abraham, or His Son, or Buddha, or Quan Yin, or Cosmic Consciousness, or anything else.

100% in agreement. I can only add… “and whatever faith the person chooses, my hope is that they keep it personal to them”

Safie's avatar

I don’t think that people throw insults about believing in God because they are fearful, i honestly think it’s because they feel like those who believe are always forcing their beliefs down their throats.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge and knowledge of the holy one is understanding…just thought i’d show this because to fear the Lord is to first believe and have faith, acknowledging him as being holy the messiah, so i doubt those who have no belief are afraid of Jesus but i certainly believe there is no need for insults, it just shows the poor character of some people and everyone has a right to believe or not believe regardless of what anyone else thinks free will that is what we all were given.

slyflux's avatar

It seems as if some people are so fearful of Jesus they will go to any measure to discount Him, to the point of insults

That doesn’t make sense. They discount and insult him because they don’t fear him. Those who do fear him are the believers.

Gays try that nonsense too with the made up term “homophobia”. Or with non-gays who made up “heterophobia” in response. Having hate, disgust or apathy for something/someone does not mean you fear it. Just the opposite.

Stinley's avatar

I’m quite unafraid that I am living a good and moral life. I try hard to be kind and truthful and honest and giving. When I go wrong, I try to make amends with the people that have been affected by my actions. I am happy to be told that I have behaved badly by my own inner moral compass or by other people. I am also happy to conform to rules and laws that I don’t necessarily agree with but that I know are for the greater societal good.

I don’t do this because I’m scared of someone who lived 2000 years ago or scared of an invisible but omnipresent supernatural being. I do these things because I think that they are the right way to behave, a way of behaving that helps our society to function and progress.

I don’t think that people insult Jesus – I think that it would be quite hard to successfully insult someone who has been dead for so many years. I think people challenge those who declare all sorts of unprovable things as the absolute truth and those people may feel that they are being insulted.

I rarely try to discuss religion with religious people because it always seems to end badly – often with the religious person saying that my questions about their beliefs are insulting. I feel entitled to my beliefs and I think that a religious person is entitled to their beliefs but I don’t think that either of us should try to threaten the other into their way of thinking.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@slyflux For what it’s worth, “phobia” doesn’t just mean “fear.” It also means “aversion.” So while @Hypocrisy_Central seems to be using “phobia” to mean “fear,” do understand that the word “homophobia” was invented to refer to various types of aversion to homosexuality. And note that “aversion” can include “hate, disgust, or apathy.”

dxs's avatar

A lot of the definitions I looked at for -phobia included the word aversion. This word points more towards hatred rather than fear. In this sense, I’d say there exist “Jesusphobes”. But I do not think that people are generally “Jesusphobes” for the reasons you present, which are only based on fear. People are fine without believing in Jesus’s teachings. As others have said, those who believe in Jesus’s teachings tend to be the ones who fear him. In Catholicism, fear is considered a gift given to you by the Holy Ghost in sacraments of initiation.
Jesus is probably the least scariest person in the Bible. It has been theorized that he is purposely relatable in order to draw people in to his religion.

cazzie's avatar

I only fear things that are real.

stanleybmanly's avatar

It isn’t Jesus of whom I am wary. Let’s just say I’m suspicious of the endless line of barkers and hucksters who pimp his “brand” to sell their products. My view of Jesus is very much the same as my take on Santa. They’re both great marketing tools to be utilized by the slick without fear of the repercussions involved with trademark infringement.

cazzie's avatar

I think ‘Jesusphobes’ are created by people who judge other people who don’t believe as they do. That’s is how they are created. They need a name for something too difficult for them to understand and so they give it a term that makes it very simple for them to put into the context of their own world view.

Espiritus_Corvus's avatar

I think what you’re seeing is indifference, or even subdued anger and interpreting this as fear because a fearful non-believer is more acceptable to you. Possibly for personal reasons. So, you are projecting. Like reality, indifference and anger are harder to deal with.

The indifference comes from already seriously weighing the subject and finally deciding that it isn’t worth further thought, and ultimately and finally discarded it as not useful. The anger comes the frustration of once again being asked to revisit a subject you have long ago dismissed as nonsense and since have repeatedly, incessantly been urged to revisit. And you just wish that person would go away.

One of the ways to make them go away is to insult the person and their ideas. This can take the form of satire, irony, sarcasm, or even a direct physical threat. It’s not fear you are seeing. It’s frustration.

@Hypocrisy_Central: I say this in earnestness to your question and this should not be interpreted otherwise. I don’t wish for you to go away. You are far from obnoxiously aggressive unlike the type of proselytizer I address in the last two paragraphs.

cazzie's avatar

It is also, by the way, where ‘Feminazis’ come from as well.

kritiper's avatar

I have no issues with Jesus, or his supposed teachings. It’s that “God the father” stuff I don’t buy.

Berserker's avatar

Some Christians may fear God, because of hell and heaven. I mean, if that stuff exists, who wants to end up in hell? As I understand, God may be just, but He’s also strict.

If you’re referring to atheists, which I believe you probably are, well as was already said, can’t fear something one does not believe in.

Zaku's avatar

I don’t think it’s fear of Jesus himself, but fear of weird, wacky, controlling and shaming people (etc) and their behavior that puts people off. So many backward behaviors, which I don’t think the actual or the Bible-described Jesus would condone.

In my family, bad Sunday School experiences had people fleeing Christianity and raising their children to feel free to find their own spirituality. Things like, “stay in this room and pray to God until you get an answer” ... and then being punished for actually taking it seriously and waiting for an answer.

The messed up behavior of various Christian churches and preachers also tends not to help. The history of atrocious popes, inquisitions, excommunications, holy wars, and witch burning, followed by the more modern altar boy abuses, sexism, persecution of homosexuals, and TV evangelism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons… All of which are very un-Jesus-ike – what is the problem with Christians failing to understand and accept the actual teachings of Jesus, and all the hatred and greed and abuse and lack of love and acceptance and humility?

thorninmud's avatar

To add a bit to @Espiritus_Corvus ‘s excellent comment, some of the anger and frustration comes from the way fundamentalist Christianity is perceived as standing in the way of human progress on the social and political fronts.

We face some enormous collective problems, and these will require an enormous collective response. But from fundamentalist quarters we don’t sense any willingness to take this on. This begins with a general abrogation of responsibility for the long-term welfare of the planet; it’s doomed to imminent destruction anyway, so why bother. There are even those who are all for expediting the process.

Then there’s a seeming distaste for the whole idea of collective action. Government is the enemy, the UN is the devil’s proxy, etc. Political activity mostly consists of undermining government and its capacity to affect meaningful social change. In the social sphere too, there’s a pervasive isolationism, segregation and exclusion.

And too, it’s difficult to find an effective partner in addressing the world’s problems in people who can’t even agree that the Bible may not be the most reliable guide to history, cosmology and biology. If scripture trumps scientific evidence, then it’s unlikely that we’ll ever be able to agree on a way forward.

Christianity isn’t unique in posing these obstacles, and not all of Christianity is so obstructionist. But fundamentalist Christianity has positioned itself as the face of such obstructionism on the American scene. That creates some powerful resentment among those who want us to all work together on our big “to do” list.

tinyfaery's avatar

Jesus save me from your followers. Why be scared of a dead man. It’s the myth of Jesus and the behavior and ideas of most Christians that are most bothersome.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I highly doubt fear of giving up vices creates JesusPhobes. I had plenty of vices when I was a practicing Christian.

I think Jesusphobes are created when people suffer abuses in the name of God, like our own Seek did. Also, hypocritical behavior by Christians can leave a bad taste in everyone’s mouth.

ibstubro's avatar

Honestly?
Truthfully?
You are a Jesusphobe production facility.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@hominid Is @Darth_Algar correct here? Are you claiming that disbelief is a result of fear?
No, if I had to say it, as the Bible confirms, more ignorance than anything else. Surely if people feared God like the MOB or those faceless, nameless terrorist, pedophiles, and street thugs, this world would be a far better place. However, what I was referring to was fear of the ideal that all will have a face-to-face with Christ at the end to go over how one lived. The latent fear they won’t measure up. Kind of like being afraid of cancer so when you have some very strange physical anomalies going on, you don’t want to go to the doctor for fear he will tell you that you indeed do have cancer. I think that covers quite a few other comments posted after yours.

@LostInParadise I personally do not need to get my moral beliefs from a book, and yes it is possible for atheists to act morally.
That leaves you as getting someone else’s morality filtered through people down through your parents. They must be of high authority that you would follow another man/woman who was born and will die no different than you. I did not get my morality from some dudes, or any book. And yes, even atheist can be moral same as anyone else. God placed a measure of morality and goodness in every soul.

@dabbler Jesus the person isn’t around anymore, but his fans are, and historically they have persecuted and killed countless souls whose only ‘sin’ was not agreeing with them.
Of course Jesus is not around anymore, He done what He had to do for us. He is back on His throne now. So, all those who have historically caused suffering or killed when people disagree with them, you oppose just like saints, or you just hold that blanket indictment for Christians because of those who may have invoked His name but in actuality were never a part of Him?

That passage you quoted, do you believe in the Bible and if not, why quote something you do not believe?

@elbanditoroso Look, the whole religion thing is a lot like guns and gun control. Jesus doesn’t kill, Jesus-lovers do.
So just to be fair, you are oppose to knives because people misuse them to stab people, oppose guns because people use them to murder other people, oppose booze and cars because people cannot have un-inebriated fun and if they can’t get on the road and kill people? There are many things that are misused and that kill people, but I do not get the indication you are scared of them. It to me is akin to hating Smith & Wesson because their guns are popular with thugs, criminal, murderers, and robber.

@Safie I don’t think that people throw insults about believing in God because they are fearful, i honestly think it’s because they feel like those who believe are always forcing their beliefs down their throats.
Is that right? Even by a moral code one believes a bunch of dudes made up way back when that has nothing to do with God, would that be right? There are issues I feel are shoved down my throat, so does that mean I get to be disrespectful and insulting about it?

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge and knowledge of the holy one is understanding…]
The context of the Greek and Hebrew leans more toward high reverence and respect, not of terror.

@Stinley I do these things because I think that they are the right way to behave, a way of behaving that helps our society to function and progress.
What gives that more authority to others who live in a different nation or community that believes what you say is wrong and it is survival of the fittest, or the biggest and baddest rule the roost? Just asking…..

@cazzie I think ‘Jesusphobes’ are created by people who judge other people who don’t believe as they do.
That would be no different than homophobe in actuality wouldn’t it.

@Espiritus_Corvus I think what you’re seeing is indifference, or even subdued anger and interpreting this as fear because a fearful non-believer is more acceptable to you. Possibly for personal reasons. So, you are projecting.
That missed so far out of the neighborhood, it is in another country even; not even close to my sentiments.

@Symbeline If you’re referring to atheists, which I believe you probably are, well as was already said, can’t fear something one does not believe in.
I am not referring to just atheist, I am referring to anyone who is anti-God, if you believe but in rebellion, denial, or unbelief, you are still on the outside no matter what one calls themselves.

@Dutchess_III I had plenty of vices when I was a practicing Christian.
You are either a Christian or you are not. If you were a Christian and knew you had vices but did not do everything you can and lean on Him to give you unction to rid them from your life, I have to say you thought you were a Christian but in reality wasn’t in the heart, just in the head, or you are worse off than those who thought wrongly that they were, because you did know better but decided to go your own way. I said that not to offend you but to enlighten you on what you may not have known.

@ibstubro You are a Jesusphobe production facility.
John 15:20
Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

Digs and slights come with the territory….nothing new….

cazzie's avatar

No, because homosexuality actually exists. Jesus doesn’t.

There is actually something called Theophobia- Fear of gods or religion. But you’re making up the whole Jesusphobia thing to push your own beliefs. It’s not real.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@cazzie No, because homosexuality actually exists. Jesus doesn’t.
Prove Christ doesn’t exist? Because you don’t have a relationship with Him, and never seen the power of His hand, doesn’t mean He doesn’t exist. Because it exist, weak, just because people are doing it, but I believe a certain way that might lend to what those doing it deem as a negative, by the same token doesn’t save it from being referred to oin unflattering ways, just because they don’t like it.

cazzie's avatar

Well, technically speaking, someone would have to believe Jesus was real in order to have a phobia. I guess you can take that as a positive. The people who you are calling Jesusphobes must believe he is real. I’m not one.

Most of what you wrote is unintelligible so I can not respond to all of it.

Response moderated (Off-Topic)
Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

Understand this – No one, aside from a relative few dipshit teenage metalheads, is “anti-God”. One cannot be anti something they do not believe exists. Are you anti-Tooth Fairy? Most of us are anti-smug, condescending, pushy Bible thumpers such as yourself. Most of us are anti-enshrining religion into law. Most of us are anti-religious bigotry.

ibstubro's avatar

Given the situation in the Mideast, @Darth_Algar, I think an “Anti-God” stance could argued credibly.

kritiper's avatar

I always thought that if anyone was “anti-god” that they were devil worshipers.

ragingloli's avatar

@kritiper
devil worshipper, a.k.a. anyone that is not christian.

Stinley's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I don’t understand what you are saying to me. Could you say it again in a different way?

Dutchess_III's avatar

Either I was a Christian or I wasn’t, and the fact that I smoked while I was a Christian means I wasn’t really a Christian but I only thought I was? Interesting. So “true” Christians are without imperfection?
As someone said, you view women as property. You are also very angry, belligerent and arrogant. All true Christian values, I suppose.

Darth_Algar's avatar

Clearly when Christ spoke the whole “he who is without sin” bit he had @Hypocrisy_Central in mind.

Dutchess_III's avatar

You know, I don’t behave any differently now than I did when I was a believer. Except I quit smoking.

Berserker's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central What makes you think that all non Christians believe in nothing but rebellion, “unbelief” and denial?
What about Buddhists? You think that’s all they believe in?

hominid's avatar

@hominid: “Are you claiming that disbelief is a result of fear? ”

@Hypocrisy_Central: “No, if I had to say it, as the Bible confirms, more ignorance than anything else.”

Ouch.

@Hypocrisy_Central: “However, what I was referring to was fear of the ideal that all will have a face-to-face with Christ at the end to go over how one lived. The latent fear they won’t measure up.”

Can you re-read that and explain how you’re not assuming that non-believers actually believe? Is this one of those Ray Comfort “there’s not such thing as an atheist” thing? Sigh.

Assuming this is what you really believe, would you be able to elaborate? Also, it would be critical to include an explanation of why this would or wouldn’t apply to things that you do not believe in (Thor, for example).

Dutchess_III's avatar

Uh, yeah. What @hominid said. And besides, if I ever DID come face to face with Jesus and had to explain myself, my explanations would be the same, as an agnostic, as they would have been as a Christian. I’m the same person I’ve always been, with the same values. I am more than ready to help those less fortunate, I’m willing to live and let live without judgement, neither of which are values that are shared by conservative, judgmental Christians. Pretty sure it’s WJWD, though.

ragingloli's avatar

” If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner. ”
– Martin Luther, antisemite and founder of protestant christianity

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Darth_Algar One cannot be anti something they do not believe exists. Are you anti-Tooth Fairy?
Really, do I have to put the cookies on the very bottom shelf, or are you inventing ways not to see the logic? It is like this, government exist, it actually is here. I cannot be a supporter of government and yet not be a terrorist, or anarchist trying to overthrow the government. Just because you are not openly worshiping Satan, doesn’t mean you are pro God. I cannot be anti-tooth fairy, Jedi, zombie, dragon or anything else that doesn’t exist. If you believe He doesn’t exist why keep making the point that He doesn’t. If someone said they were anti-science and did not believe in atoms, would you spend so much time trying to convince them atoms are indeed real? If said person said they were against science, what, you would then assume he was pro fairytale?

Most of us are anti-enshrining religion into law.
Who is are the ”we” you speak of, those who lurve you, those in college, those in suburbs across America, who, and you took a poll or using someone else’s poll numbers?

@kritiper I always thought that if anyone was “anti-god” that they were devil worshipers.
That was inaccurate information you got, from wherever you got it from.

You said: ”I do these things because I think that they are the right way to behave, a way of behaving that helps our society to function and progress.”
In short, what makes the way you follow right? The warlords in Mogadishu thought the way their society was right, ISIS think they are right, same with Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. there ways of doing things were different than yours so what makes yours better? What authorizing body sanctioned that it as better, and what give them the right to do so?

@Darth_Algar Clearly when Christ spoke the whole “he who is without sin” bit he had @Hypocrisy_Central in mind.
For someeone who doesn’t exist, you seem to know what He is saying and in the context He said it, that is pretty good, you get an ‘A’. ~~~

@Symbeline What about Buddhists? You think that’s all they believe in?
I do not know certainly what Buddhist believes in. To me it doesn’t matter, Buddha did not create the universe, I will not stand before Buddha to give an account for anything, all I know is he is not God, no need to dwell on him.

@hominid Assuming this is what you really believe, would you be able to elaborate?
Good, a comment/question that has some merit behind it
Some people believe but not accept, because to do so would require them to make a change in how they live, to put their trust in God, basically, to hand Him the keys to the bus, and go take a seat in the back. Others don’t believe. Think of a person that believes the music from their radio got there my magic. Someone tries to explain that the music got there by radio waves transmitted from a tower. The person hearing the music doesn’t believe it because they can’t understand the technology nor can they see the signals, so they reject how the signal carries music to their radio and continue to believe it is magic. Those are like people who are ignorant of spiritual matters or how the gospel works. If the person never dares to believe there actually are radio waves bringing the music, they can never get past believing it got to the radio by way of magic.

@Dutchess_III Either I was a Christian or I wasn’t, and the fact that I smoked while I was a Christian means I wasn’t really a Christian but I only thought I was? Interesting
Maybe you were stuck in the religion thing, the Bible never said anything about smoking, I doubt it even existed then. People who misinterpret the Bible would think that. There are Christians who are ignorant and still on milk. That is why we have to study to show ourselves approved. If you feel smoking is in the way of your walk, testimony or whatever and choose not to care, that is another thing.

So “true” Christians are without imperfection?
“True” Christians will understand and know they have imperfections, and that they can only rid themselves of it by His power, so we rely and place faith in Christ that He atoned for them for us, and grants us mercy while we wait on him to give us the mind and strength to overcome them.

I certainly thought someone slighted me, but I can’t find it. Surely they will do it again and I can make an intelligent rebuttal to it.

Berserker's avatar

My idea wasn’t to dwell on Buddha or the followers, I am using them as an example in trying to understand what you mean by folks who believe in denial rebellion and unbelief. Who are these people, and what makes you think this is all they think of?

Dutchess_III's avatar

The sin of smoking would fall under the general heading of treating our bodies with respect.

@Hypocrisy_Central You can’t seem to wrap your mind around the possibility that many of us do not believe that God exists. You seem to be convinced that we actually KNOW he DOES exist but we’re pretending that he doesn’t. I guarantee you that is not the case. We view Christianity, God and the Bible the same way we view Greek mythology and Zeus, or Native American mythology. It’s a myth. It isn’t real. It’s impossible. Are you anti-Greek mythology?

If you take @Darth_Algar seriously, and it’s a good point, and answer “Are you anti-toothfairy?” then you’ll understand where we’re coming from. The idea that the tooth fairy is real is ridiculous. So it the idea that there is a God, or Gods, or Goddesses, and that people were rising from the dead.

Berserker's avatar

@Dutchess_III nailed it. Atheists don’t believe in God, or any other gods. I don’t see what’s complicated about it. If you want to convince yourself that we’re all afraid, well have fun with it. But you got most atheists wrong yo, and you’ll only limit your own wisdom and knowledge by making shit up about what people think.

ragingloli's avatar

“Think of a person that believes the music from their radio got there my magic. Someone tries to explain that the music got there by radio waves transmitted from a tower. The person hearing the music doesn’t believe it because they can’t understand the technology nor can they see the signals, so they reject how the signal carries music to their radio and continue to believe it is magic.”
The ironic part is, that in that story it is the christian that believes in magic.
What you have described is every science vs creationism debate ever.
evolution vs christian magic. c. does not understand evolution, and continues to believe that god poofed everything into existence with a series of magical incantations.
big bang cosmology vs christian magic. c. does not understand basic astrophysics and continues to believe that god poofed the universe into existence via a magical incantation (let there be light)
plate tectonics vs christian magic. c. does not understand plate tectonics and instead continues to believe that marine fossils atop mountains are because everything was underwater during the magical great flood.
radioisotope dating vs 6000 year old christian magic. c. does not understand basic nuclear physics and continues to believe that the planet was poofed into existence by god via a magical incantation.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Since I accepted agnosticism something that has always confounded me is that fact that a Christian can scoff at the idea of Greek Gods and Goddesses being real. Scoff at the idea that a God would come down form Olympus and be with a human woman and have a child with her. They recognize them as stories and myths and that they are ridiculous and impossible…..and yet embrace, without question, those same concepts within their own faith as though they are a fact.

ragingloli's avatar

There is an Ancient Roman city in Italy, Herculaneum (got destroyed by Vesuvius alongside Pompeii).
Which, according to the beliefs of its inhabitants, was founded by Hercules himself!
The city exists, therefore Hercules was real, therefore the Greek Gods are real!
(honestly, this is actually slightly more convincing than christian arguments for their religion’s veracity)

Speaking of which, let the world be reminded that Hercules was born to a human mother, and his father was a God. Gee, where have I heard that before…

ibstubro's avatar

I think at the moment I’d have to classify myself as “Anti-God”, even above my agnosticism. Different interpretations of the meaning of “God” are causing a living Hell in the Mideast. Honestly, were there a God how could He allow such terrible atrocities to be carried out in His name? What could be the purpose? Mysterious ways my ass. He’d have to be closer to Devil to allow mass murder in His name, when all he has to do is send an unequivocal sign that He is real, mad as hell, and not going to take it any more.
Oh, but God created humans in his own image, meaning he’s real moody and loves games. We’re just a living Sims game to Him. Let those smart-assed Americans have the hubris to actually use the atomic bomb, then see what that gets them!

“Really, do I have to put the cookies on the very bottom shelf…?” That’s a Christ quote, right, @Hypocrisy_Central? Remind me of the chapter and verse? Amazing how the eloquence still rings true these 2000 year later.

Darth_Algar's avatar

I really do love the irony of a guy who believes that -

A: Some perfect all-powerful, all-knowing being existed before the Universe, poofed the entire Universe in to existence, is above the natural laws of the Universe and yet somehow is still subject to human pettiness and emotions

B: A talking snake talked a woman made from a rib into convincing a man made from dirt into eating an apple, which then enraged this all-powerful, all-knowing yet strangely petty creator

C: An old man to built a boat and put two of every animal on Earth on it, and that the entire Earth was then flooded

D: That a lone man single-handedly killed an army of 1,000 with nothing more than a donkey’s mandible (unless “jawbone of an ass” was a pet name for his minigun, and his enemies comically just lined up single file for him)

E: This being then impregnated a virgin woman with himself to sacrifice himself to himself

- and has the cheek to talk about others believing in magic.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III You can’t seem to wrap your mind around the possibility that many of us do not believe that God exists. You seem to be convinced that we actually KNOW he DOES exist but we’re pretending that he doesn’t.
As I said, some people don’t because they can’t fathom anything above themselves being god. Some do believe, they just don’t like the terms of salvation. I can use that same train of thought, you can’t seem to wrap your mind around the possibility that many of us do not believe that sex outside of a man with a woman is unnatural_. To say that around here and people get huffy as if everyone is supposed to believe that or act like they do, for to say otherwise it sacrilege and run-to-the-mods to get them banned worthy. Just to show the parallel and they hypocritical way it is dealt with.

God and the Bible the same way we view Greek mythology and Zeus, or Native American mythology. It’s a myth. It isn’t real. It’s impossible.
There are people of faith that look at certain sects, lifestyles as weird, incorrect, wrong, etc. and as you, have the right to express it, if true freedom of speech existed in this cyber world.

Are you anti-Greek mythology?
If I had to take a side of the fence, I would have to say I am anti-Greek Mythology, but that doesn’t mean I will insult all the Greeks who believe it, or insult Zeus in front of them. If I were going to rebuke him, I would be more respectful than this crowd.

If you take @Darth_Algar seriously, and it’s a good point, and answer “Are you anti-toothfairy?” then you’ll understand where we’re coming from. The idea that the tooth fairy is real is ridiculous.
Then it should be no surprise that certain beliefs and sacred cows of this cyber world or ridiculous, and when stood up against 98.8% of nature really look utterly ridiculous, so why get ticked if people apply the same ideology, just not for the favorite sacred cows of Fluther?

I understand full well way more people on this planet don’t believe in God than those who do, in spite the fact in any given city, (depending where you are) there is almost a church every half mile. The Bible said many will take the wide road that leads to destruction, and will miss the narrow gate. The reason they miss it is the same when you see that video after they set off the bomb in Nevada all those soldiers started marching toward the blast zone, they had no idea they were heading into radiation. If any or many got sick and died from it, it was because they were ignorant of the danger; they could not see it or feel it, or had a way to detect it. I don’t want to kill any of you or anyone else, if I were as you say, I would mark you all for death of insulting my God. I hope to give you the spiritual Giger counter before the cancer set in. But, if you don’t believe the radiation is there, doesn’t mean it won’t get you. So, I will leave you to lurve-pat-yourselves-on-the-back as if that will remove the radiation or make it non-existence. You can steer a person from the graveyard but you can’t stop him from entering the tomb. Enjoy this life; it is all you will have until death claims that fleshly tent. You can go on and not believe. If you don’t believe, do not let something you don’t believe upset you so much, you don’t want to waste a moment of this life on that. I have some spiritual things to do, so I will be spending the next few days utilizing my time better than swimming redacted.

Berserker's avatar

@Darth_Algar Dude, cmon. To me Noah is the most fascinating Bible dude ever. This guy was like 97 years old, and he went around wrestling bears, fist fighting tigers and catching eagles in flight by dashing in the air like a ninja.

Then he forced every single animal on Earth to get along in a boat, so they wouldn’t eat each other or kill everything…and probably Noah had to catch insects, too. Man, that’s some job. A lot of bugs don’t even live for as long as that flood happened. But Noah did it, man.

Not making fun of the thread or its subject, I just think the Noah thing is…hilarious. Thing is my parents bought me a Noah toy set when I was small. Plastic boat with plastic animals. I swear man, that toy set had at least three hundred pieces, including one plastic Noah. I spent hours playing with this, arranging all the animals and all, and getting all pissed off when it was diner time and I had to sweep all my animals off the table and back into the box.

Just sayin man…NOAH IS FUCKING BADASS.

LostInParadise's avatar

It just occurred to me what a clever idea it is to treat non-belief as a kind of disease. Non-Moslems suffer from Allahphobia and non-Buddhists from Buddhaphobia. We are all afflicted. In the case of Christianity it is not just Jesus but the three headed supergod which, truth be told, really is kind of intimidating, far more than I have ever been able to wrap my mind around.

kritiper's avatar

@ragingloli Uh, wrong. Saying that any non-Christian is automatically a devil worshiper is just too broad and discriminating to possibly be true.

cazzie's avatar

Justification of murder, subjugation and oppression is what religions do best. Are we at all surprised, @LostInParadise ? This one is making up new terms to help him make sense of his limited understanding of the world.

ragingloli's avatar

So far, HC has postulated that there are only three types of Atheists:
1. People that only pretend not to believe.
2. People that are too dumb to believe.
3. People that are too arrogant to believe.

At no point did it occur to him that it is the religionists’ side that has failed to provide any evidence to support their claims.

cazzie's avatar

@ragingloli he also fails to recognize those who have really looked and studied and found the whole thing as much a fairy tale as anything The Brother’s Grimm has ever offered.

hominid's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central – You appear to just repeating (and expanding) your assertions without evidence. More troubling to me, however, is that you are not engaging in a discussion here. I have asked you multiple times to explain how this concept applies to your disbelief, but you refuse to respond (unless I missed it).

@hominid: “Additionally, how does this apply to your beliefs? Can you map your disbelief in other conflicting religious claims or Thor or bigfoot or fairies to fear? I am currently shrinking myself down to the size of a piece of dust and I will be floating in front of you in 5 seconds. On your next inhalation, you will breathe me in. If you do not accept this claim, is it because you are afraid of it?”

ucme's avatar

I don’t take illegal drugs (cocaine-heroin) because i’m afraid of the consequences?
No, I don’t because I have no need for artificial highs & no interest whatsoever.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “I would be more respectful than this crowd”

Funny, as you have yet to actually show a modicum of respect here.

“If you don’t believe, do not let something you don’t believe upset you so much”

Again your arrogance shines here. You presume to know our emotional state now. No one is upset. simply put – you asked, we answered. If you don’t want to hear the answers then don’t ask.

By the way: if homosexuality is, as you claim, unnatural, then how come it’s actually found rather frequently across many species in nature?

Dutchess_III's avatar

”....because they can’t fathom anything above themselves being god.” Dude. I could fathom it. Or rather, I should say I could imagine it. Until I met Rarebear. Over the course of a few years, thanks to him, I finally sat back and took a good, hard scientific look at it all, and realized it just wasn’t possible. Jesus did not rise from the dead, Mary could not have been a virgin, there is no way the Noah story happened, unless it was on a very small, local scale and the story got exaggerated.
None of it makes any more sense than Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy. I’m not afraid of retribution for saying these things, either.

If you take the Bible literally, the earth was populated by incest. Twice.

Espiritus_Corvus's avatar

Wow. This reminds me of the good old days. Seriously.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@hominid You appear to just repeating (and expanding) your assertions without evidence.
Oh, you mean like many here.

More troubling to me, however, is that you are not engaging in a discussion here.
Again, as many here, to use it as just a platform to insult God is hardly seeking any discussion. If there is no discussion, it is not on me.

I have asked you multiple times to explain how this concept applies to your disbelief, but you refuse to respond (unless I missed it).
It might have gotten lost in all the mudslinging of your compadres. If you can ask it again, and I know it is asking s lot, to do so in an intelligent non-insulting manner I can tell you and we can see if you can understand it.

@Darth_Algar Funny, as you have yet to actually show a modicum of respect here.
If I matched the disrespect here, people would blaze a path to the mods to quick their undies would be in flame. Glad to help you all rocket to your next mansion.

Again your arrogance shines here. You presume to know our emotional state now.
Wow, I mean, oh wow. Arrogance? I guess it must be humility to think Christians (and seeing there were no qualifier as some, it has to mean all in general) are homicidal maniacs the ungodly are the moral one who bring peace in this world. Where is the proof of that, I’d like to see?

By the way: if homosexuality is, as you claim, unnatural, then how come it’s actually found rather frequently across many species in nature?
Speaking of arrogance, you actually know what is in the mind of an animal now, or believe some other arrogant person who says they know?

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “Wow, I mean, oh wow. Arrogance? I guess it must be humility to think Christians (and seeing there were no qualifier as some, it has to mean all in general) are homicidal maniacs the ungodly are the moral one who bring peace in this world. Where is the proof of that, I’d like to see?”

It would really help your case if you stopped inventing arguments and claims that the people you’re addressing never made.

“Speaking of arrogance, you actually know what is in the mind of an animal now, or believe some other arrogant person who says they know?”

Amazingly the ability to read minds is not requisite to observe behavior.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Darth_Algar Amazingly the ability to read minds is not requisite to observe behavior.
Amazingly they usually write this stuff down, at least as they interpret it, which means it can be found somewhere. So, you post some sites where they believe this and I can hold it up to sites which say there is none in spite of what it appears, because the humans are trying to transference human emotion and belief on animals who have no capacity to do so.

ibstubro's avatar

I have met a few Christians for which I had a true and deep respect.

The one I remember the best was a guy I worked with on a machine in a factory. Never once did he try to witness to me, and he was never smug or holier-than-thou. After all, that had no bearing on our relationship, as we were both employees being paid to do a job.

What made me respect him so much? He lived his Christianity. He never cursed. He rarely gossiped or spoke poorly of other people. He ‘did unto me’ in that if I came back from break and the whole line had gone to hell, I knew there was no way he could have prevented it. In return, I curtailed my cursing, limited negative comments about others, and more than carried my share of the work. In short, I’m conscientious and he was able to make me a better person through example rather than word. If he’d come in every day and preached at me while underhandedly doing what he preached against, I would have stayed at it until he was off the line. Instead, he was the absolute best of the people I worked with at the company in my 20 years there.

I’m an agnostic, but if I could find a group of people that actually just practiced the Christian ideal without the rhetoric, I’d be a member. I can’t imagine hanging with a group where you never had to watch you back, and you never had to gauge people’s intention. That does not describe any church that I ever heard of.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ What made me respect him so much? He lived his Christianity. He never cursed. He rarely gossiped or spoke poorly of other people.
Holy smokes Bullwinkle, you mean he did not live up to popular pundits here and was some narrow-minded, homicidal maniac looking to torture or kill anyone who did not believe has he did? Wow, what a concept.

LostInParadise's avatar

Indeed. The great conflict is not between opposing religions but between fundamentalists and everyone else. There is really not much difference between extremists of one religion and extremists of another. They all feel compelled to impose their views on everyone else, even going so far as to create mental disorders to explain opposing points of view.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

Here is one article on the subject. It isn’t about trying to project human beliefs or emotions onto animals, it’s about observed homosexual activity plain and simple. Unless you now reside in some kind of Bizzaroworld where two members of the same sex engaging in sexual acts is not homosexual behavior.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Darth_Algar Here is one article on the subject.
I will check out this ONE article (_since there are only one) and run it up the flag pole to see if it flies. Even though whoever wrote the article believes what they observed to say something they want to believe goes on in the wild, I am sure if one watches enough animal footage, you can believe animals have and are capable of all sorts of human traits and behavior . I guess if I looked at enough footage I may find what I believe is remorse on the part of that lioness for snatching away the baby springbok from its mother to eat it, but that doesn’t mean it is true just because it looks that way to me. I will check out this article you found, I am interested to see how they derived the ideas they have.

@LostInParadise They all feel compelled to impose their views on everyone else,
Who are ”they” and what views of theirs do you believe they are imposing on ever one? If I was to impose my will on people (if I had the means and authority do so) you might be shocked. The views I have are not my views but that of Christ, and He has the right to have any view over that which He has created, I am sure you disagree but whatever….

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
cazzie's avatar

@ibstubro I know plenty of Christians whose personal relationship with their god doesn’t turn them into complete twats. I wish they could all be like that, but, well, people are just like that. Some can’t resist that high horse and forget that whole, ‘Judge not’ part, but really like to remember the bits that fit their own personal tendencies, which, strangely enough, represent some of their so-called ‘deadly sins’.

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
LostInParadise's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central , “They” , as I said, are fundamentalists (were you paying attention?) and their views are the outdated reactionary beliefs associated with extreme conservatism. I hope that in imposing your views that you cut out those of the Old Testament, like approving of slavery, treating women like chattel and applying “spare the rod and spoil the child” .

Dutchess_III's avatar

One fundamentalist FB friend posted a meme that read:

I’m not trying to be intolerant of other people’s beliefs.
I’m really not.
But Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life
No one comes to the father except through me.”
and I believe him.

I was like, WTF? I responded with “But that’s their problem, not yours. You don’t need to take any kind of action if they choose not to believe, or choose a different lifestyle.”
She said, “Just stating what I believe, Val.”

It didn’t even make any sense.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@LostInParadise I hope that in imposing your views that you cut out those of the Old Testament, like approving of slavery, treating women like chattel and applying “spare the rod and spoil the child” .
First off, man has free will, to do things the Lord commanded, and to do things his own way in his own will. God never ordained slavery any more than he has stealing or murder. But He knew the heart of men. Since people had a propensity to do that to other men, or even place themselves into slavery to pay off a debt, so the Lord set standards for the nation of Israel to follow. If you know the Bible so well, you would know God requires the man to love his wife (which is always a woman) as Christ loved the Church, willing to give his life for her. That doesn’t sound to me as God doesn’t value women. Sometimes children need to know certain offences or rule breaking is serious enough to have physical pain as a consequence. Does not society say certain crimes are serious enough to pay with one’s own life?

Lastly, I am not imposing any of my views, the view I present are that of the Lord, and He created all that is seen or not seen so he can do as He see fit with it.

cookieman's avatar

But, what if “He” doesn’t exist? Then whose views are your views?

Even if “He” does exist, are all your views His? Do you have some of your own, independent of Him?

LostInParadise's avatar

The Bible most definitely condoned slavery and even had rules for how to treat slaves Solomon’s Temple was built using slave labor. Slavery was limited to foreigners. Fellow Hebrews could be indentured servants and had to be released after six years.

Women in the Bible are considered property

You can’t cherry pick what parts of the Bible you accept. Once you leave out parts it no longer serves as an infallible guide to how you should act.

ragingloli's avatar

@LostInParadise
But you could scam the Hebrew slave into staying your slave for life.
Just give the slave a wife after he becomes your slave.
When the 6 years are up, the wife will still be your property.
So you give him a choice: His freedom, or his wife. If he chooses his wife, he becomes your slave forever.
Exodus 21: 4–6

Espiritus_Corvus's avatar

God certainly did advocate slavery. It’s all over Exodus, Deuterotomy, Leviticus (where He actually sets the rules and even provides for slavery of His chosen ones among their own), Numbers, Kings, Samuel I & II—He most certainly did. What he objected to was the slavery of the Israelite, the chosen, but, as stated in the posts above, He even reneged on this deal when He provided for a kind of temporary slavery of “indentured servitude.” This form of slavery was emulated by Christians all over the world (long after regular slavery had been outlawed in many countries), including in America and her possessions right up into the mid-twentieth century—under the New Covenant, mind you.

In the wars between the Israelites and the uncircumsized (I absolutely love the terminology of the Bible), if He hadn’t ordered complete annihilation of the enemy nation (referred to as a ban), He often specifically allowed the taking of children and women as slaves for the use and pleasure of the victors—His Israelites, the people of the Covenant.

God personally gave Hagar, a young Egyptian girl, to Sarah, Abraham’s wife and half-sister, as her personal slave whom Sarah offered to Abraham as a concubine because Sarah was infertile and all the children begat by Hagar would legally be Sarah’s and Abraham’s—and thus, the line could continue and ultimately produce Jesus.

Man, the Bible wouldn’t be the Bible without slavery and God’s complicity in it!

ragingloli's avatar

God personally gave Hagar, a young Egyptian girl, to Sarah, Abraham’s wife and half-sister, as her personal slave whom Sarah offered to Abraham as a concubine because Sarah was infertile and all the children begat by Hagar would legally be Sarah’s and Abraham’s
Also a form of legalised rape, becaus I doubt Hagar had any say in this.

cazzie's avatar

The Bible virtue of claiming the life of an offender for a crime is shared by the USA and some very odd company…. that are seemingly much less Christian.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@cookieman Even if “He” does exist, are all your views His? Do you have some of your own, independent of Him?
I have my views referring to global warming and its cause if there is any. Extraterrestrials, or what people thought they say or might have seen, etc. I have some that doesn’t conflict with His.

@LostInParadise @Espiritus_Corvus before even attempting to tackle those…….issues (seeing we are using a book you do not believe anyhow), do you have a clue of the differences between the Old Testament, and the New Testament?

Espiritus_Corvus's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central You said God never ordained slavery. Now you want to quibble about in which testament? Is it not the same God in both?

I think the lessons taught in Jonnathan Livingston Seagull are valuable, and I often quote that book, but I don’t believe that any of it actually happened. I have a similar sentiment for the Bible, even moreso, because I do believe that it depicts certain events that actually may have occured and that these events are interpreted by a people with a limited knowledge base in the best way they could.

Show me, my son, where in the New Testament it is explicitly said by the son of God that slavery is wrong for anyone except the Jews.

LostInParadise's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central , Are you taking my previous advice not to use the Old Testament? That would mean that you could not use the Bible to support your views on homosexuality. Jesus had nothing to say on the matter. If the Old Testament is the word of God then you have to accept the whole thing. Otherwise what difference does it make what is says?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Espiritus_Corvus You said God never ordained slavery. Now you want to quibble about in which testament? Is it not the same God in both?
You do not even know God, and seem as though you never read His Word, so how could you know what God ordained or not? You glean a scripture or two, used out of context to try and paint God to what you want Him to be. If you do know God and conduct this way, then you know the Bible says it is better for you to tie a millstone around your neck and be dropped to the bottom of the sea than face what you have coming upon death. God allowed man to do lots of things, just as today, because he did not immediately jump in and zapped the offenders with fire from the sky doesn’t mean he wanted them to do it.

There are passages in the New Testament that said what God really wanted, I challenge you to find them, only because you seem to act as if you know the Word so well.

@LostInParadise Are you taking my previous advice not to use the Old Testament?
One has to use the Old Testament if they hope to get the full effect of the New Testament. The Old Testament was the hope and the Promise, the New Testament is the deliverance and evidence of the Promise. That link you posted was either ignorant Christians who need to bone up on their word or non-Christians which would explain how they got so much interpreted so badly.

Ephesians 5:25
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,

That is what God said through His Spirit imparted on the disciples who pinned the Bible. It seems the men have a very high standard. You are not required to die for just anyone, though if you died for on in the name of God because you were trying to do God’s will such as saving a person from drowning or some other peril you would store up blessings.

Romans 2:11
For there is no partiality with God.
James 3:17
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

Wow, looks like those redacted who put that Web site together forgot a few things. I can’t see how you can treat women as lower than and not be partial. I think they better pray more before they open their mouths or study their Word better.

I think maybe you should inform those people of:
”You can’t cherry pick what parts of the Bible you accept. Once you leave out parts it no longer serves as an infallible guide to how you should act.”
There are no contradictions in the Bible, but if you have not really read it, and only choose parts to make your case, it woluld seem like that.

Espiritus_Corvus's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Sorry, it is glaringly obvious that you haven’t read this book cover to cover in the sequence in which it is usually printed today. You appear to be just another person who has had this book cited to them piecemeal, out of context, with particular emphasis on the later Testament, like most so-called Christians. If you had actually read this book, you could never make the statements you have, such as those concerning slavery. It’s a very interesting book, by the way, and you should read it if only that it is the single most influential document in Western culture.

Taking the sanctimonious stand, that of the outraged Christian, that I don’t know God, won’t win you any arguments. I may not have the faith, but I do know what I’ve read and through this I have a very good idea of the God of the Bible. He behaved like a mean old drunk, forgetting many of his promises, frequently changing his mind and countermanding orders, repeatedly threatening to kill off his own chosen people, and if wasn’t for Moses they would have been killed off at Sinai. Hardly the behaviour of a perfect, omnipotent being. It’s a good read. I think you would find it fascinating. Try it sometime.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Espiritus_Corvus Sorry, it is glaringly obvious that you haven’t read this book cover to cover in the sequence in which it is usually printed today.
If you read it cover to cover, it profits you nothing. One can read a book of quantum physics cover to cover but if they cannot grasp the content, they might have done better to go read a comic book.

You appear to be just another person who has had this book cited to them piecemeal, out of context, with particular emphasis on the later Testament, like most so-called Christians. You appear to be just another person who has had this book cited to them piecemeal, out of context, with particular emphasis on the later Testament, like most so-called Christians.
Oooo, got hit with the “so-called Christian” line; I must be hitting a nerve. I could respond to that but I don’t have to go to the gutter too. I read and study to show myself approved thank you, it was not handed to me piecemeal and out of context, just because you got yours that way, don’t put it on me.

Taking the sanctimonious stand, that of the outraged Christian, that I don’t know God, won’t win you any arguments.
So, you know God but willfully twisting His Bible to win arguments and slather yourself with lurve as if the more you get you will actually be right?

He behaved like a mean old drunk, forgetting many of his promises, frequently changing his mind and countermanding orders, repeatedly threatening to kill off his own chosen people, and if wasn’t for Moses they would have been killed off at Sinai.
I will deal with that fantasy laced poppycock in the morning, I have to run, if I have the chance I will dismantle that after dinner.

It’s a good read. I think you would find it fascinating. Try it sometime.
I have, and that is why it is so amazing how you, who acts as if you know it better, is messing it up so badly.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Jonathan Liviingston Seagull!!

Mean old drunk! I never thought of it that way, but he was awfully inconsistent, and emotionally all over the board, wasn’t he. Well, I guess he just took on the personality of whoever was writing that particular book.

Pretty sure God sanctions prohibiting poor children in Kansas from going to the swimming pool. It’s so called Christians who are trying to push this through. If they call themselves a Christian, then they’re only doing God’s work. (And it’s things like that that create Jesusphobes.)

cazzie's avatar

My best friend is this amazing, beautiful, intelligent, (insert numerous compliments here)... woman. She has a personal relationship with Jesus that means a lot to her. We agree on stuff and love and respect each other profoundly. I just felt I needed to put that out there. (also… she is single and gorgeous…. I’d love for her to find a great guy.)

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III Mean old drunk! I never thought of it that way, but he was awfully inconsistent, and emotionally all over the board, wasn’t he.
So if he were a robot God you would believe better? I hardly think, it would be just another excuse not to believe. God is immutable; you do know what that is. Because he had no reason to show his range of attributes doesn’t mean he is all over the place, are you? Because you become sad, moody, grieve etc. I guess no one should take you serious you are all over the place, right?

It’s so called Christians who are trying to push this through. If they call themselves a Christian, then they’re only doing God’s work. (And it’s things like that that create Jesusphobes.)
There are politicians who claim to be doing the will of the people but lining their pockets or fleecing the people to their benefit and that of their cronies. There are teachers who are terrible, only there for the paycheck and care not if your child leaves school as dumb as a bag of rocks, and foster parents with no love or compassion for their wards but only doing it for the buck. So to not be hypocrites I suppose people will have to hate government, education, and the foster system because the people who misapply it are not the fault, they misapplied it because the system was wrong. Unless one holds that same bar of responsibility because of the behavior of those involved, hypocrisy is all that is left to say.

No, I have not forgotten about that …..poppycock (_as politer as I can say it) said above by @Espiritus_Corvus, I needed a bigger shovel to get through all of that.

@cazzie My best friend is this amazing, beautiful, intelligent, (insert numerous compliments here)... woman. She has a personal relationship with Jesus that means a lot to her. We agree on stuff and love and respect each other profoundly.
Come, come now, you heard what people said here. Surely she has to be some narrow-minded, homicidal, egomaniacal, bigot, who will jihad all over you if you disagree. Or trying to brainwash you by merely mentioning Jesus.~~~

Dutchess_III's avatar

If he were a consistent God that would be good. But he’s not because he’s made up by all kinds of different people with different personalities.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ ???????????????????????????? Huh?

Dutchess_III's avatar

Humans wrote the different books of the Bible, and interjected their own personalities into their writings. That is why God seems to be all over the board.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III Humans wrote the different books of the Bible, and interjected their own personalities into their writings.
People are not puppets or automatons, we all have our own personality. If 10 of us saw a car accident and was asked to recant what happens you might get several versions depending on what each person wanted to focus on. When the Scriptures were being wrote down, it was written for a particular audience at that time. The truth of the word is there. If you wrote a pamphlet, book, or article on something you knew well and you had sole control over its publishing, you would not let the copyboy come in and make edits to it and publish it if you knew he did it. If you would not let anyone change your information the Lord certainly has more power than you not to have anyone change His.

That is why God seems to be all over the board.
I am curious, toss me a bone, show me an instance you feel God is all over the place?

Dutchess_III's avatar

Proibition against incest:

Leviticus 18:8–18New International Version (NIV)

8 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.

9 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.

10 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you.

11 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.

12 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative.

13 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative.

14 “‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.

15 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.

16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.

17 “‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.

18 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

Yet he set up a situation in the beginning that required exactly that. In fact, he did it twice.

I find it interesting that all of that was directed toward men…hmmm.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ Have you any clue as to why? Or because of the policy change which reasoning you don’t understand you are making a judgment off that? Is that the only thing, or do you have more?

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
Dutchess_III's avatar

a clue as to why what? Why God forbids incest? Or why, according to Christian mythology, God created a situation where incest was the only way to populate the earth?

kritiper's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Here’s an “all over” one: One of the Ten Commandments says that you shouldn’t covet thy neighbor’s goods, while another says you shouldn’t covet thy neighbor’s wife. Wouldn’t “wife” and “goods” be basically the same thing? So why have two when one would do?

LostInParadise's avatar

To put women in their place by defining them as a type of property.

cazzie's avatar

Folks, this is getting painful. And I’m getting moded because someone is seeing personal attacks in my very general comments where no one is named or referred to in particular.

I’m going to invoke me ‘Who looks more foolish?’ rule. Which states, ‘Who looks more foolish? The unreasoned person who does not use logic and reason in his argument or the reasoned person, who tries to use logic and reason and insists on arguing with the unreasoned?’

Religion has been around as long as it has because they teach and indoctrinate so that the illogical becomes reasonable. They’re experts at it. There is no reasoning. There is no logic. Don’t look for any. Don’t expect any. They have faith in a thing that is mystical and magical and defies logic. Most people can carry their beliefs with them without disrupting the Secular World around them. Other’s can’t. Disliking those people who insist on disrupting the Secular World does not make us ‘Jesusphobes’ as the poster contests. It makes us Secularist and that is a badge I wear proudly. Doesn’t mean I dislike all Christians. I dislike plenty of people and I can assure you it usually has absolutely nothing to do with their deity or deities.

kritiper's avatar

@cazzie Oh, there’s logic! Ancient people invented theism and/or deism to explain the unexplainable. (And that’s about as logical as it gets!!)

dabbler's avatar

“Ancient people invented theism and/or deism to explain the unexplainable”
That’s a reasonable possibility, and not at all a new or illogical idea.

The human brain, especially since the evolution of the bi-cameral brain and the development of the pre-frontal lobe, goes nuts about things for which it has no explanation. It’s extremely distracting.
Inventing “God” or Belzebubb or Baast or Yahweh, and attributing to that all of the things that seem to be supernatural, lets the mind let it go on unfathomable subjects making time for the important mundane stuff like hunting and gathering and mating.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@kritiper […Ten Commandments says that you shouldn’t covet thy neighbor’s goods, while another says you shouldn’t covet thy neighbor’s wife. Wouldn’t “wife” and “goods” be basically the same thing?
It is the same ways in which people possess and have custody of children, they kids belong to their parents but the parents don’t own them. Your parents could not rent you out as cheap labor to some restaurant or sell you to some garment factory because the bills became short. God never saw women as a separate entity that men owned, he said the two would become one flesh, in a metaphysical and spiritual sense, that they be one unit. What man has done with it is not the fault of God.

kritiper's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Couldn’t the Commandments have specified all that and still wrapped it up into one? You suppose to know too much, methinks!

cazzie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central wrote: God never saw women as a separate entity So, if a woman never marries and ‘becomes one flesh’ with a man she has no value?

Dutchess_III's avatar

Oh, God. I’m so glad women finally became separate entities. The men prolly aren’t too happy though, but we don’t care.

ragingloli's avatar

Christian view of women:

“11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
11:8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.”

As opposed to the secular universal declaration of human rights:

Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

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