General Question

ucme's avatar

Boston marathon bomber sentenced to death: Your thoughts?

Asked by ucme (50031points) May 15th, 2015

Years of appeals to follow.

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

119 Answers

marinelife's avatar

I don’t believe in the death penalty. It makes the state no better than the murderers.

Dutchess_III's avatar

It’s so sad. The whole thing is just so damn sad. He’s so young and he reminds me of my son.

However, I think a life sentence would be more punishing than death.

janbb's avatar

I also don’t believe in the death penalty but I don’t think he should get parole.

Coloma's avatar

I used to be really anti-death penalty but have had some rethinking on the issue the last few years. Our penal system simply cannot keep up with and support the hundreds of thousands of hardcore criminals that are going in, are in, with life sentences and well..I just don’t know.
What I do know is that a death sentence for those convicted beyond a shadow of a doubt ought to be carried out within 2 hours of the sentencing, not decades of death row appeals.
From the court room to coffin in 24 hours or less.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Coloma

And what of those convicted and sentenced to death but later exonerated? “Opps, our bad”?

stanleybmanly's avatar

Civilizations come and go. One way to determine whether they’re coming or going is to notice whether or not they’re getting more or less civilized.

flutherother's avatar

I also don’t believe in the death penalty.

majorrich's avatar

I would rather have the death penalty as a terminal solution for the most heinous of crimes. (no pun intended there) In this particular case it is better to execute than to have someone release the perpetrator who has been found guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt, back to Yemen where he will try to kill more innocents. What do the families of the innocent victims of this person’s crime think about the death penalty in this case? Best to stop murderous recidivism by following up on very clear cut cases and quickly carry out the sentence.

Blondesjon's avatar

@Darth_Algar . . . @Coloma said that she believed this in cases where a person was convicted beyond a shadow of a doubt. That’s what this case is and I agree with her.

If you are unquestionably guilty of the brazen taking of human life then let yours be taken from you. If it can’t be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt then you shuffle your feet in prison until it can be proven or can’t.

Is there a better system that you might be able to demonstrate for us all?

Darth_Algar's avatar

Yes, yes, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Here’s the thing, under the system we have the guilt of the convicted is, supposedly, proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. That’s the way it works. We don’t say “well, I’m not totally sure, but he’s probably guilty, so I’ll vote to convict”. If you vote for conviction then the state has, presumably, proven their case to you beyond a shadow of a doubt. And yet innocent people do get convicted.

flo's avatar

One family of a victim was saying that life would be a misery for them if he got death, because it could get appealed and they could not get closure, as a result. Maybe someone out there has the article or video that they can post. I’m looking for it.

Blondesjon's avatar

@Darth_Algar . . . That’s not what this question is about. It’s about a fella who is 100% guilty and has been sentenced to death.

I’m right there with you in regards to our system being a giant fuckhole of corruption and bullshit. I’m just taking the side of the death penalty being favored by me in cases like the OP mentioned.

Jaxk's avatar

@Darth_Algar – Actually it’s beyond a ‘reasonable doubt’. It leaves a little wiggle room. To prove it beyond all doubt is a burden we’d seldom meet.

The death penalty in this case seems appropriate. Personally I don’t care whether he got life or death as long as he’s off the street never to return. I’m not vindictive but I don’t want this guy living next door either.

ucme's avatar

As someone coming from a country that long since abolished capital punishment, i’m feeling that this guy dying at the hands of the state achieves bugger all.

Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One's avatar

Under the label “war” men and women have been killed for ages. They were shooting at each other.

This a-hole killed unarmed people who had no intention of harming him.

To hell with him.

Blondesjon's avatar

@ucme . . . some of us countries have a few hundred years yet to catch up with britain’s state execution numbers before we can chill out too.

canidmajor's avatar

My thoughts are that this is not a black and white issue.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Blondesjon

And what does killing him accomplish?

ucme's avatar

@Blondesjon I believe you shoulda capitalised Britain.
You appear to have taken umbridge with a harmless remark, which did nothing but state a fact.
I wasn’t looking down from an ivory tower at the “barbaric yanks”, just a mere segue into a balanced opinion.

flo's avatar

Here is a search result. The family members urging the government re. death penalty.
http://goo.gl/JnkMT3

Blondesjon's avatar

@Darth_Algar . . . Well, for one thing, it makes me feel better knowing that a fella capable of doing what he did will no longer be able to do what he did. To anyone. Period.

@ucme . . . i never use capitalization in a whisper. it’s a whisper.
check it out on my posts fluther fans. i ain’t lyin’.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Blondesjon

Life in prison accomplishes the same thing

ucme's avatar

@Blondesjon You got back in line at least.

Blondesjon's avatar

@Darth_Algar . . . You can kill in prison as easily as you can kill on the street. Why put some of the innocents in our system at more risk than they are already in?

marinelife's avatar

@Coloma Our prisons are too overcrowded because of inflexibility in sentencing guidelines. Also, with swift executions, what if an innocent is convicted, which we know happens all the time.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Blondesjon

You realize that prisons have the ability to segregate prisoners according to their propensity towards violence right?

Blondesjon's avatar

@Darth_Algar . . . So now you’ll stand up for the state? Keeping prisoner on prisoner violence out of prisons in this country is an even bigger joke than our justice system that places them there.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Blondesjon

Nice attempt at deflection there. You couldn’t debate my initial point so you shifted the goalposts, you still can’t counter my points so you’re now attempting to dodge and deflect.

The death penalty has no place in a society that presumes to be civilized, that claims to have the moral high ground. Period.

Blondesjon's avatar

I did debate it @Darth_Algar. When I answered you with, ”@Darth_Algar . . . That’s not what this question is about. It’s about a fella who is 100% guilty and has been sentenced to death.

I’m right there with you in regards to our system being a giant fuckhole of corruption and bullshit. I’m just taking the side of the death penalty being favored by me in cases like the OP mentioned.”

If we’re going to take this tack then I would submit that you have yet to demonstrate the better system that I asked for earlier right here.

talljasperman's avatar

He should be the first person exiled to Mars. I’m against the death penalty. Why do young terrorists look adorable at 15? Like Omar Kauter.

Blondesjon's avatar

finally! a voice of reason. ^^

chyna's avatar

In this case, as the criminal’s attorneys have said that he did, indeed, commit the act he was accused of, I think the death penalty is the correct choice.
I don’t think life in prison is appropriate in this case as I think he will have access to media sources and be able to spout his terrorist propaganda and perhaps recruit more terrorists.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Blondesjon “If we’re going to take this tack then I would submit that you have yet to demonstrate the better system that I asked for earlier right here.”

You asked for a better system while at the same time demonstrating that you don’t really have a good understanding of the system we have. Also it’s not a question I can or will answer because I’ve not claimed nor indicated that there is a better system than our current system.

ucme's avatar

@PersianFarrah: @KTHopkins he was too hot to die he should’ve been freed I’m crying right now

^ That, a genuine post on Twitter, without the merest hint of sarcasm.

Coloma's avatar

@Darth_Algar I said “beyond a shadow of a doubt.” Those 6 words are etched in stone.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Coloma

And my response to that is here.

ucme's avatar

I just read that he, Tsarnaev, showed no emotion as the verdict/sentence was given.
Starkly contrasted with the visibly moved jurors, who were seen dabbing their eyes.
Not sure what that says about the event, but there you go.

Coloma's avatar

Shadow of a doubt means hardcore EVIDENCE.
Not circumstantial.
HARD evidence.
Your semens DNA in my dead childs vagina, yep, I want you to fry and swiftly.

Most wrongly convicted people that are being exonerated are from decades ago prior to all the advances in DNA testing and other criminal investigation advances/methodologies. It’s great that new investigations into old/cold cases are experiencing a surge of new attention. many cold cases have been solved decades later via DNA testing. This is great, astounding, wonderful as is the same for exonerating the wrongly convicted, no argument there.

Warehousing 10’s of thousands of hardcore criminals is doing nothing to better our society and the monies spent on a lifetime of care, not to mention all the insane allowances/privileges ( Charles Mansons wedding, lol ) well…like I said, I am still teetering on the fence here after years of being an anti death proponent but my saddles slipping.

Compared to the falsely convicted over the centuries the few that are wrongly convicted or put to death is still going to grossly pale in comparison to those that deserve to go to their great reward for heinous and unmentionable crimes.

Jaxk's avatar

We have 7 billion people on this planet. Most of them believe that we are reaching critical mass on over population. If we need to cut back some of the population this guy and those like him are a good starting point. Arguing that falsely convicted people shouldn’t get the death penalty doesn’t come into play here. We have video and his defense admitted he did it. If there was ever a rigtheous conviction, this is it.

JLeslie's avatar

I support the death penalty in some cases, but my gut tells me not in this one. I was quite bothered today when I heard death penalty for this guy. A spot on the news showed him giving the finger to a prison camera and the person narrating said that showed he was not remorseful. Huh? Maybe he just hates the prison guards.

What he did was horrific, he has to be punished, but part if me does feel he was young and influenced heavily by his brother.

If they kill him I won’t lose sleep, but if it were up to me I wouldn’t vote for it.

tinyfaery's avatar

I do not support the death penalty. No one has the right to decide if another should die

elbanditoroso's avatar

Good riddance. Shame that there will be appeals. Execute him tomorrow, for all I care.

Coloma's avatar

Here’s an interesting stat. I haven’t done a final tally yet, but jeez…743 in CA. ( my state ) alone. Unreal!

www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/death-row-inmates-state-and-size-death-row-year

Coloma's avatar

Sooo…3015 death row inmates nation wide.
Now..to find out the number of life sentences nation wide.

citizenearth's avatar

The bomber should be executed as judged. No more excuse.

stanleybmanly's avatar

It isn’t just a leftist bias that has me convinced that the state should not be in the business of executing people. The fact that the death penalty had all but been abolished, segregation eliminated, women empowered and the environment given priority (on paper)—all of these things came to fruition when the country was at its zenith, and I suspect there’s more to that concurrence than mere coincidence. My personal objection to capital punishment was predicated on the appalling inequities involved with the legal system. It wasn’t the fact that the state was killing people. It was that certain people stood a much greater chance of finding their head on the block. And true to form, it is in those places notorious for inequities and sloppy justice that the death penalty is most readily embraced with the greatest enthusiasm.

Now I will admit that all of the above is irrelevant in this case. If somebody’s gotta go, this is the guy, hands down. But my position on the state as executioner has shifted beyond the issue of the rich being absent from death row. It’s just plain wrong to kill people. We kill one another because we are flawed human beings. And I strongly suspect the same must be said of the state.

BosM's avatar

I’ve lived in the Boston area my entire life and what he and his terrorist brother did was horrific. They killed 4 people and wounded or maimed hundreds. They have him on camera committing these acts, there is no doubt he did it, he didn’t deny doing it. Their defense was the influence his radical older brother had on him. But that’s not acceptable, he has to be accountable for his actions. This was a Federal case because it was deemed an act of terrorism. He will be sent to a prison in Indiana to live what’s left of his life in isolation as the appeals process unfolds. He got what he deserved, enough of the bleeding hearts, we can’t tolerate acts of terrorism. Period, end of story.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@BosM – of course. Well said.

sahID's avatar

@BosM Perfect answer. I completely agree.

Given that even his own attorneys admitted in open court that he committed the depraved acts, I fail to see how he has any grounds for appeal. What, base an appeal on the fact that his attorneys told the truth in court? Sheesh.

Ordinarily I oppose the death penalty because, to me, it is hypocritical. If murder is a serious crime when an individual does it, then how is it legal for the State to turn around and carry out pre-meditated murders under the guise of “capital punishment?” However, this is one of the rare cases when I see it as entirely justified. Only, instead of lethal injection, I see execution by firing squad at dawn as the only suitable method.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Coloma

All of that would be great…..if we lived in a perfect world, with a perfect legal system free from inequalities, free from the easily swayed biases of people and free from human error. Unfortunately we don’t. We never will. Innocent people will be convicted, just as guilty people will go free. That’s the reality of it. As such the death penalty cannot, and should not, be tolerate nor excused in my view. Not only that, but I have a problem with entrusting the state with the power to execute its citizens. And thus I oppose the death penalty for all, even if there are some that might truly deserve it (though I do not believe myself to be omnipotent enough to judge who deserves death).

wildpotato's avatar

I love all the “I’m a liberal but fuck this dude” bullshit in this thread. Carry on.

janbb's avatar

@wildpotato I agree. The test of a principle you believe is whether it stands up against the toughest case. The Boston massacre was an evil, evil act and Tsarnaev definitely committed it but I don’t believe in capital punishment so I don’t think he should be killed. Life sentence without parole.

ucme's avatar

Liberal bullshit on Fluther…get right outta town ~~

Coloma's avatar

Meh….where’s it written in the political handbooks that one must display every trait of a particular party?
Just more divisiveness if you ask me. I am liberally liberal and conservatively conservative depending on the issues. Mostly liberally apolitical… Hah!
Calling myself a “hippie cowgirl” kinda says it all, one leg on each side of the political saddle.

cazzie's avatar

I think killing someone and making them a martyr for their cause is a mistake. Living like a dog in jail for the rest of his life, having his freedom taken away and his every waking hour controlled by the people he hurt, being reminded constantly what a horrific thing he did…. that’s more my type of ‘liberal’ punishment.

Coloma's avatar

@cazzie Yeah, but you’re forgetting that a lot of these types have no conscience. If you’re a raging narcissistic sociopath there is never an admission of guilt or responsibility, no feelings of remorse, they simply don’t feel it. The only thing they are mourning is being prevented from continuing their sicko actions. Infact, keeping them alive just allows them to replay their crimes in fantasy over and over again and get that feel good feeling.

If I lost my child to a sociopathic sexual predator I wouldn’t want him fantasizing and getting off for one more second over how much he enjoyed torturing and murdering my child. Gah!

Darth_Algar's avatar

Amazingly, we don’t allow the parents (or other family) of victims to decide the convicted’s fate. I wonder why that is?

cazzie's avatar

@Coloma I just don’t think that our rage should make us killers.

Blondesjon's avatar

@cazzie . . . When you put down a rabid dog you aren’t doing it with rage. You are doing it with compassion.

LostInParadise's avatar

@Coloma, Do you think that killers who are not pychopaths should get the death penalty?

With regard to psychopaths, these people are mentally ill. They feel no remorse for what they did. Though it never happens, they should be declared legally insane because they cannot distinguish right from wrong. It certainly does not seem right to kill someone for having a mental illness. Being that, as far as I know, psychopathy is incurable, they should be put away for life and at least make an attempt at rehabilitation.

cazzie's avatar

When you speak in absolutes, you are mostly wrong.

Blondesjon's avatar

^^ is that phrase meant to be ironic?

talljasperman's avatar

Where are the parents? How can a kid build a bomb with parents supervision? Should the father face criminal neglect charges? Maybe more people are responsible and charged? The Boston bomber should be studied to find out how to unradicalize young teenage wantabie terrorists?

Coloma's avatar

@LostInParadise Sociopaths are not mentally ill they know the difference between right and wrong, they simply have no conscience and they are missing the emotional processing and empathetic brain responses. They are not rehab material at all, never will be and will repeat their offense if given half a chance. True mental illness like schizophrenia, being delusional, hearing voices, hallucinating, agreed, those people should be confined to high security mental health facilities. Sociopaths are the proverbial “bad seed” and should be planted asap.

Coloma's avatar

@cazzie In an ideal world but such is the nature of many human animals. We are ALL capable of killing but some of us have no control over our violent impulses. Most of us would only kill under extreme duress in self defense and would not take pleasure in it.

cazzie's avatar

@Coloma you bandy that word, Sociopath around an awful lot. Have you read ‘The Psychopath Test’ by Jon Ronson? I suggest you do before you diagnose people.

Coloma's avatar

@cazzie I’m not diagnosing anyone, who was I diagnosing?
I am simply saying true sociopaths are not rehab material.
I have read extensively on the subject and while there are degrees of the condition these leopards do not change their spots whether corporate psychopaths, serial cheaters or serial killers. I was also married to one for 22 years so I am pretty well educated on the nature of this beast.

cazzie's avatar

@Coloma What if you had to personally kill the person. You had to flip the switch. Could you, would you do it?

Coloma's avatar

@cazzie I wouldn’t want to, however, if out of necessity yes, I could do it.
As I have said, I am still on the fence, but leaning towards the worst of the worst being done in.
The most evil and violent offenders that can never be released. Here’s a great example, watched this last night.

Social reform failed miserably with this guy. Nice sentiments but unrealistic and clearly dangerous to think otherwise. Worth watching.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS2oewwF3n4

cazzie's avatar

@Coloma So, you could have diagnosed this guy as a sociopath worthy of killing after his first German victim? Austria and the rest of Europe needs your help. Who knows, perhaps you could have prevented our Brevik from what he did. Hindsight is 20/20. State sanctioned killing is still killing.

Also… the fact you admit you could do it is enough to probably get your diagnosed in the psychopath test.

janbb's avatar

@cazzie I agree with you. Whether a criminal could be rehabilitated and whether the state should be in the business of killing criminals are two separate questions. I don’t believe in capital punishment in any case but I do believe that some criminals should get life without parole.

cazzie's avatar

The killing of the young German woman SHOULD have meant he was put behind bars for life. The rest of the story is a tragic example of modern psychology gone mad. Oddly, some people use ‘modern psychology’ to justify state sanctioned killing, and that is my point. We don’t need psychology. We need metered justice.

cazzie's avatar

(also, @Coloma , I have come to know you as a very sincere, sweet, loving above all else human being. I don’t believe you could ever be responsible for the death of another human being in such a way.)

Coloma's avatar

@cazzie
If I had to pull the switch to save my own life of that of a loved one you bet I could do it. That makes me nothing other than someone who can admit that under the right circumstances I could kill, so could you, however this fact is a far cry from true psychopathic behavior.
I am not diagnosing anyone, the facts speak for themselves in the case I presented. Quit putting words in my mouth, the story speaks for itself.

Where did I say I had “diagnosed” the guy? Nowhere, simply that “they” the prison system, gambled and they lost on a certified sociopath that immediately went a’ hunting again. This is nothing new, there are hundreds of cases of giving these types the benefit of the doubt and releasing them only to have them go right back to their disturbed and murderous pursuits. I merely shared that to drive home the fact that some people can never be safely returned to society and to think otherwise is not only naive but dangerous.

cazzie's avatar

Oh, absolutely, but if you have to play executioner to someone you were removed from… I’m saying it would be a different kettle.

cazzie's avatar

WAS he a certified sociopath? By who? A journalist? The general public? A prison warden? A person with a masters degree is psychology who was a court appointed counsel? By you from what you read from the entire story?

You mentioned in your comments about anyone being a particular sociopath and how they are this way or that way…. and I’m saying you should be careful in your broad strokes of those who require death.

Coloma's avatar

@cazzie Yes, the guy was certified, all the traits, highly manipulative, objectifying others, compulsive need to control, history of slaughtering and mutilating animals, depraved sexual urges on and on. Obviously a con man that doesn’t kill anyone but bilks them out of their life savings, while still a psychopath by nature is not on the same continuum as a violent sexual predator. Come on, quit with all the circular arguments, it doesn’t take a masters degree in psychology to know what you’re seeing and dealing with in these types of situations. Lets just drop the whole psychopathology thing and leave it at, extremely violent killers of any mental disposition should be eliminated from society one way or another, forever after.

Darth_Algar's avatar

I do love when people speak authoritatively on subjects they have no background in.

Coloma's avatar

@Darth_Algar I also love people who make presumptions and assumptions without asking what others backgrounds might be.

cazzie's avatar

Having an unhappy marriage doesn’t qualify anyone to diagnose and condemn to death people they read about in the paper. Thank goodness.

Coloma's avatar

@cazzie and you presume again. I minored in psychology in college, have always been interested in abnormal psychology, what makes people behave as they do. I have read/studied extensively over the years and, my therapist from years ago diagnosed my ex as a pathological narcissist with sociopathic traits. I am quite well versed, and even with my background and personal experiences aside, the hardwired traits of this condition are textbook and anyone can spot them given the opportunity. You are certainly entitled to your opinions but do mistake them for fact without asking direct questions, which I have now answered for you.

Discussion over, think what you will.

majorrich's avatar

In this case, the defendant was guilty far beyond reasonable doubt. He is guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt. The Death penalty was indicated and should be carried out post haste. Beheading would be symbolically appropriate although some may call it unduly cruel and unusual. I approve of making it peculiar by carving a pork roast first with the knife, then using that knife to behead him with. Just to piss off those he would fight for. We have wasted far too much time and money on this fool. Let’s dispose of his sorry posterior and apply Sharia to his remaining buddies at Guantanamo. They would appreciate it very much.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@majorrich

The Islamic prohibition against pork is against the consumption of it (and even then in Islamic law exceptions are made for times of hardship). Your suggestion to carve a pork roast with the knife first is both idiotic and meaningless.

cazzie's avatar

The death penalty makes you all killers.

Coloma's avatar

@cazzie War makes people killers humanely euthanizing the worst of highly dangerous people makes one an advocate for the greater good.

Jaxk's avatar

No different than putting down a rabbid dog.

cazzie's avatar

It also makes you no different from other countries that have the death penalty. What a great club. Among a few others.. here is a list: (Notice a theme? Not exactly great rich ‘Christian’ Democracies.)
AFGHANISTAN
BANGLADESH
BELARUS
BOTSWANA
CHAD
CHINA
CONGO (Democratic Republic)
CUBA
EGYPT
EQUATORIAL GUINEA
ETHIOPIA
GAMBIA
GUATEMALA
GUINEA
GUYANA
INDIA
INDONESIA
IRAN
IRAQ
JAMAICA
JAPAN
JORDAN
KOREA (North)
KUWAIT
LEBANON
LESOTHO
LIBYA
MALAYSIA
NIGERIA
OMAN
PAKISTAN
PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY
QATAR
SAUDI ARABIA
SOMALIA
SOUTH SUDAN
SUDAN
SYRIA
UGANDA
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
YEMEN

Coloma's avatar

@cazzie

What does a non-christian theme have to do with anything?
I’m not a christian, do not believe in christianity and while I would prefer we live in a perfect world, some violence and crime free Utopia of butterflies and fairy dust, this is not reality.
Bottom line, our prisons are filled to capacity with non-reformable and violent humans that can never be safely released back into society and while I wish this wasn’t the case somethings gotta give and for those that have forfeited all their rights due to their uncivilized actions. Warehousing unreleasable violent offenders is not a working solution so what alternatives are there?

The millions and millions of dollars spent on incarcerating these people could be put to much better use like early intervention programs for at risk youth, prisons could be turned into homeless shelters, senior care homes, so the greater good is served in multiple ways not spending hundreds of thousands a year to warehouse one person that will never be safe to return to society.

cazzie's avatar

@Coloma You point out even more reasons the US is broken.

And you think the incarceration numbers should be solved by killing people. Death row costs much more money than lifetime incarceration.

Inara27's avatar

But now prisons are a business in the US…the lobbyists from the prison industry don’t want any sort of reform. This is especially true in the war on drugs, very profitable for them to warehouse all sorts of drug users and low level dealers. I am sure they are very unhappy about the legalization of marijuana in a number of states. Must build more prisons to keep up the bottom line!

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Coloma

No, our prisons are filled to capacity with petty and victimless criminals who could be reformed, if given the chance, but aren’t and are instead simply tossed back into the same situation that put them there in the first place. This is because of decades of myopic fools screaming for “tough on crime” laws, and because of the private prison industry which spends millions lobbying for harsher laws and harsher sentences because that increases their bottom line.

Coloma's avatar

@cazzie No argument there.

@Inara27 Ditto above.

@Darth_Algar I’m not talking about 1st time offenders for lesser crimes, petty and victimless crimes do not merit 10, 20 year sentences agreed, however I am not talking about these people. I am talking hardcore, repeat, violent offenders and death row inmates incarcerated for heinous crimes that can never be returned to a safe and functioning level in our society. There are over 3,000 death row inmates nationwide and who knows how many lifers without possibility of parole.
If these criminals were, actually put to death in a timely fashion without costing us gazillions in appeals and care, well, that certainly would be no small stepping stone to free up ( pun intended ) monies that could be put to better use for those that with the right guidance could become contributing members of society as well as funding other altruistic programs as I mentioned above.

We all have our opinions and there are gains and losses on every side.

Darth_Algar's avatar

You said our prisons are overcrowded, I gave you the reason why they are overcrowd. It’s funny that @Inara27 and I both say the pretty much the same thing. With her (him?) you had “no argument there”, yet chose to argue with me for saying the same thing. Why?

Coloma's avatar

@Darth_Algar I think I have been pretty clear, I am talking about the prisoners that are serving life sentences and on death row not the petty offenders. Yes, our prisons are overcrowded but I am not advocating death for petty offenders. A lot of overcrowding could be eliminated by thinning the herd of lifers and death rowers. What to do about the incarcerated for lesser crimes is a whole ‘nother topic.

LostInParadise's avatar

With regard to incarceration rate, the U.S. is number 1. That is higher than such repressive places as China, North Korea and Russia. And it has nothing to do with the death penalty.

Nebraska just voted to repeal the death penalty That makes 19 states. And Nebraska is hardly a hotbed of liberalism. I think that makes some 6 or 7 states in the last 10 years that voted for repeal. Those who support the death penalty are going the way of those opposed to gay marriage.

JLeslie's avatar

@cazzie I find it interesting that you seem pretty horrified about the death penalty and name a bunch or countries, many Arab, and many with Muslim majorities and even Muslim governments, and so often you defend the Arabs.

Almost nothing is black and white and neat and clean. Saying third world Arab countries still have the death penalty does and asking does Christian America want to be in that same category? Well, maybe that has nothing to do with it? I too get pretty annoyed that some Americans want to do some things that I associate with the third world that seem to be proven to be counterproductive, but like I said, it’s rarely that simple.

My question would be, does crime go down without the death penalty? Does it cost society less if we get rid of the death penalty?

I very rarely am in favor of someone being killed by the state, but there are some cases where it doesn’t bother me much. It would have to be a case where we know for sure the person committed the crime for me to go along with it. Repeated offender or something very extreme. I don’t know if I can support it ever for a very young person. Young being under 25. I’m not sure.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Coloma

Death row inmates are not why our prisons are overcrowded. Petty criminals are. Why do you think the prison population in this country has skyrocketed in recent decades while at the same time violent crime has actually decreased?

Dutchess_III's avatar

I taught in a county jail for two years. The majority of my students were in for marijuana.

Coloma's avatar

Darth Algar I never said they were, I have said that some extremely deranged and violent offenders,repeat violent offenders, violent offenders serving life without possibility of parole and death rowers need to be eliminated. Every little bit helps and these irredeemables gave up all their rights when they committed their heinous crimes.

I’m sure many of you have read the latest today about the registered sex offender that had imprisoned a women in a wooden box for months, forced her to have sex at his will and after she escaped last week he then shot her along with her 17 yr. old son.
THIS is the kind of person that needs to be taken out stat.
Why waste one red cent on this depraved POS that simply needs to DIE and right now.

We have no qualms about executing terrorists but what about the terror right here at home?
Paroling violent sex offenders and just hoping they won’t re-offend. I think not.

@Dutchess, Yes, ridiculous no doubt.

wildpotato's avatar

I’ll try to find some figures on this, but I doubt very much that those 3,000 death row inmates or (no doubt tens of thousands of) lifers use the majority of the total amount of tax revenue spent on prisons. Pretty sure it’s the legions of petty, nonviolent, reformable offenders who are primarily responsible for draining the coffers dry. I get that not everyone will be on the same page as me about this, but I’m personally willing to spend the $6 or $26 or whatever per year in my taxes to house and care for the violent, non-releasable offenders, because I believe the measure of a person is seen partly in how they treat their vanquished enemies.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Coloma

Did you or did you not state the following: “bottom line, our prisons are filled to capacity with non-reformable and violent humans that can never be safely released back into society”?

Coloma's avatar

@Darth_Algar Yes, like the over 3k on death row and the 140k serving life sentences out of 2.3 million inmates being held in jails and prisons across the US. I think 140 something thousand constitutes capacity and you don’t get a life sentence for stealing bubble gum, jay walking, smoking marijuana or holding up a McDonalds with a squirt gun.

Darth_Algar's avatar

140k hardly constitutes capacity if there are over 2 million in prison. No, you don’t get a life sentence for jay walking (though you may get shot for it depend on the amount of pigmentation in your skin. But that’s a whole other issue). You will get time for holding up a McDonald’s no matter what instrument you use. Now it use to be if there was no intent to harm (such as an unloaded gun) then you might get 8–14 months in the county jail. Do that now and you’ll be looking at several years in the state prison. Same for dealing a little dope. And that is why our prisons are over crowded. Not because of people serving life or on death row. Not because of “non-reformable and violent humans that can never be safely released back into society”.

Take away all the folks doing time for petty, non-violent crimes and we would be reducing the number of prisons. Instead we’re always on the lookout for where we can build the next one.

Coloma's avatar

@wildpotato Agreed, to a degree, but paroling hardcore violent offenders of many flavors is just asking for trouble.

@Darth_Algar I do not disagree with those sentiments and truths, for the last time, I am advocating death for the worst of the worst, not some poor 18 year old kid that robs a car wash or deals a little weed. For those inmates with no hope of ever being reintegrated safely into society I think death is the highest choice not keeping them alive for another 30, 40, 60, 70 years or even more. A convicted violent offender given LWOP at age 25 could, feasibly, live another 60–70 years in prison, 50 is highly probable. A complete waste of resources.

Eliminating over 3k death row inmates and scores of others serving LWOP is not unreasonable nor inhumane IMO. The End.

cazzie's avatar

@JLeslie I defend ‘The Arabs’. That sounds like such a racist sweeping generality, it is astounding.

Blondesjon's avatar

@Darth_Algar . . . yeah, i’m gonna have to say that hitting it a few more times isn’t going to make that horse any deader.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Coloma

sigh

The conversation I’m having, or rather attempting to have, with you at this time isn’t about the death penalty (you might have noticed that, as I’ve not mentioned the death penalty in several posts), but rather the issue of prison overcrowding. This might have been a half ass productive conversation if you weren’t hell bent on arguing with me (again, you stated “no argument there” to another user who the same damned thing I did) for some reason.

Coloma's avatar

@Darth_Algar

Double sigh

My “no argument there” was in relation to agreeing with @cazzie that the US is broken, there, full clarification, that remark had nothing to do with anything you said.

I was attempting to converse on the death penalty, as per the main topic of this Q. My mention of overcrowding was not intended to be a bone to chew on for endless hours, you are the one that has latched onto that bone with the tenacity of a pit bull.
You are hardcore anti-death penalty and I am leaning towards in particular cases as I have stated a gazillion times. That’s all there is to it.

JLeslie's avatar

@cazzie Gawd how long do I need to written out a sentence to be sure you don’t interpret it as all Arabs? You named many Arab nations, you, saying the US is like them on the death penalty.

I said things are never black and white and near in clean. I was the one saying sweeping generalizations don’t make sense in the topic.

I know both of us never think all people in a group all think and act the same, why you don’t know that I don’t know.

When discussions erupt about Israel and the Palestinians you tend to lean towards defending the Palestinians. All I was saying was you defend some of these backwards (for lack of a better word) cultures and their tactics on one thing and then defend them on others. I’m calling America “backwards” there, don’t think I’m saying we are better or worse. I would guess death penalty would fall into backwards by this definition. At least our laws don’t support killing your daughter for losing her virginity. Not that all Arabs or Muslims agree with that, I know they don’t.

I really never ever ever think ALL of any group ever. Having to spell that out all the time is exhausting. When someone makes a generalization about Jews or women or Americans (all things I identify with) I rarely if ever think someone is saying something about ALL Jews, women, or Americans.

It’s just a language thing. Some people need everything clarified all the time to not jump to “racist” and I just don’t go there easily. I assume people are not racist.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@JLeslie

Is it not possible to believe that the people of a culture or nation have certain rights (like, say, the right to not live in an apartheid state), while at the same time feeling that certain aspects of their culture are barbaric?

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Coloma

Conversations are fluid, conversations shift. Over the course of a conversation the focus may shift from one subject to another related subject. For future reference might you at least do me the courtesy of addressing what I’m saying, rather than arguing a point I’m not making (and had already been over in the thread) while claiming that I’m the stubborn one? That might actually help these conversations go somewhere instead of being “a bone to chew on for endless hours”.

cazzie's avatar

The ONLY ‘Arabs’ I’ve ever argued in defense of on Fluther are the ones displaced and killed by Israel armed forces in the land Israel occupies and has illegally expanded. Period. And I’m NOT defending ANY death penalty anywhere.

Coloma's avatar

@Darth_Algar I concur, and am pleased you are remaining civil. Likewise, do me the same courtesy, it’s a two way bone. Bottom line, there really is no right/wrong dichotomy, only consequences, weighing the consequences is where the bone gets chewy.

JLeslie's avatar

@cazzie I didn’t say you were defending the death penalty. I think you are against it period.

@Darth_Algar Of course. That’s my point.

majorrich's avatar

@Darth_Algar referring to the carving of the pork roast, that makes the knife unclean, and bits of unclean animal cling to the blade from what I am able to gather it makes the death unclean. I tried to find a page with small words for you Having lived amongst Israelies and Muslims alike, I can tell you they would be very upset of a roasted as well as from fresh pork or predator meat. Having flogged this horse very thoroughly I’ve commented all I feel I need to on Islamic death infliction. Devious plans are just fantasy while applying steel and flame are more to my liking. I’ve served my time, a younger smarter leader will find a way to diffuse this bomb.

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