How right is my nephew in his view?

The great wall of china and today’s mobile phones are products of slavery.
They are not symbols of the ideology of slavery.
The confederate flag is a symbol of slavery.
It was and is used deliberately by racists past and present, as a sign for the belief that black people are inferior to white people, even the belief that they are subhumans, or not humans at all and the belief that black people can be owned, used, and abused like property.
It is a case of “I am a racist, and I am going to use this flag as a shorthand for all the racist beliefs I hold”.

He’s mostly right.

The confederate flag is a symbol, no more and no less. Removing the flag censors the symbol, but it doesn’t change the mind of the person who was displaying it in the first place. So NASCAR not allowing the stars and bars is a very surface-level action, but it means nothing at all, because the people who admire the flag haven’t changed.

An external rule (take down the flag) is just an act. If you want to change how people FEEL, that has to come from them internally, not from some external event.

yes it is, your nephew is spot on. People are silly and get stuck up on symbols.

The CSA was a country whose primary reason to be was slavery and white supremacy. Racism was its foundation.

All its founding documents spell it out. Slavery was the founding principle of the Confederacy.

The finger pointing by Confederate apologists is a childish deflection from their shameful immoral beliefs.

@elbanditoroso So should I not have taken offence at the swastika spray painted on my family’s fence (or the burning of the synogogue playground next door) because they were “just acts,” and erasing the swastika and rebuilding the playground was a pointless “surface-level action” because it failed to change how the bastard who did it “felt”? Or, let me guess, I shouldn’t even have interpreted these acts as acts of criminal hatred because the swastika used to be used as a symbol of peace by many cultures before the Nazis appropriated it?

Gimmie a break. Symbols are advertising, reminding us of a certain agenda every time we see them, and advertising tends to be frighteningly effective on humans. Censoring a symbol is meaningful because it proclaims a negative stance toward the ideology behind the symbol. This is a first step to allowing the younger generation to grow up in a less poisonous environment than their elders.

You can take offense at whatever you want. Most people do, @wildpotato .

Symbols are symbols. Some people react to symbols with horror, some with education. I’m not saying “don’t paint over the swastika” at all, just as I am not in any way supporting the confederate flag.

What I am saying is that the symbol is NOT the whole story. Getting rid of the flag doesn’t fundamentally change the person who waves it.

While @wildpotato was posting I was researching the chances of buying a Nazi flag on eBay, if I was, say a KKK grand dragon trying to appeal to the boys.

Certain symbols can be adopted by certain undesirables to the extent that the display of that symbol on public property is abhorrent to the majority.

Cripes. Has the Confederate flag been outlawed, or removed from government display?

@elbanditoroso And what I’m saying is, who gives a flying fuck about fundamentally changing the person who waves a Confederate flag? Who even believes that’s a valid possibility? That racist idiot is 1) a lost cause and 2) has drastically decreased the likelihood that I will care about them enough to interact with them, let alone make an effort to help them be a better person.

Changing (adult) peoples’ racist shitheaded ideas is not the immediate goal of censoring things like the Confederate flag and swastikas – that would be taking a far too optimistic view of humanity. That sort of thing happens gradually over generations. The idea is to change the external environment to support the hoped-for internal, gradual, generational change. Ever read, say, 1984? Or Farenheit 451? Environment is everything.

Putting up a flag, actually going out and buying a flag to put up on your house, business, government building, etc., is not the same as letting the Great Wall of China remain standing. The flag is someone present day identifying with that flag and what it represents to them. The Eqyptian pyramids were built by slave labor, are we going to tear those down? These wonders of the world are like museums, and the confederate flag would be just fine in a museum or even flying at confederate burial sights.

I don’t believe everyone who flies, wears, or displays the confederate flag is racist. I do think they almost all must be Christian, white, and have never really felt like a minority in fear of bodily harm or loss of freedom. If they have felt those things they need to check themselves. Waving a flag that represents oppression, and even torture and death, to a significant part of the population who live right in that community lacks compassion, ignores the golden rule, and lacks maturity or a conscience, sometimes both.

KKK Plans Pro-Confederate Flag Rally In South Carolina

Thank you all for taking the time to answer.

Since this exchange with the nephew, I talked to my sister (his mother) regarding the Confederate flag. She is a 5th grade teacher (10–11 yr. olds) While she knows a great bit about history, her answer was better, but still not insightful. What I took away from it was that many people don’t know the history of the US Civil war and the Confederate flag.

Here is an article that provides information on the history of the reason for the Civil War and the symbolism of the Confederate flag both past and present.

Based upon this research, I’d have to disagree with one statement in your original post @ragingloli. During the war, the flag was designed and used by the South to represent their side and all of the reasons for wanting to secede. Most of the Northerners were just as racist. Their reasons for desiring to end slavery were purely based upon economics.

@elbanditoroso Both of your responses are spot-on regarding the flag’s symbolism and the feelings of people in the recent years. Removing the flag won’t change the feelings of people who look upon it with a negative connotation unless they fully understand its history.

@ARE_you_kidding_me While there is some truth in what you say, don’t you think that it depends upon what the symbol is? Would you feel the same way if your husband started flying the Nazi or ISIS flag in your front yard? Doesn’t it depend upon the reason the person desires to display it?

@jaytkay If what this article states is factual, I have to disagree with your response. The Northerners were just as racist at the time. Today, not everyone who displays the Confederate flag in its various ways does so for the same personal reasons.

@wildpotato Vandalism to property is in a separate category. It’s illegal. It’s offensive. If a symbol is involved, such as the swastika on a homeowner’s fence, isn’t the offense still about the vandalism?

And I have to agree with @ibstubro. If there was a clear message as to what a symbol represents, such as the Nazi flag, then it is easy to label the person displaying it. The Confederate flag isn’t. We would have to ask the person. I have no clue why a neighbor has one hanging in the garage. If I ever see the home owner, I’d be willing to ask.

@JLeslie I agree with most of what you said. For example, I have never seen a Confederate flag displayed by anyone who isn’t white. I have no clue if they are Christian though. The only person I’ve known well who displayed one was a neighbor in Va. He was a dentist; his wife was a nurse. He abused his sons and had extramarital affairs. He also took great pride in his Southern heritage. Maybe the family went to church, but he sure wasn’t a Christian.

What the Confederate flag initially represented wasn’t about torture and death. Oppression, yes, but the Northerners felt the same way when it came to non-white people. Today the flag has become a symbol of once supporting slavery to many of us. For others, it may represent Southern pride for its historical representation.

@ragingloli Thank you for sharing that link. The KKK is a prime example of a well-known group that supports non-white oppression and is standing up for the use of the Confederate flag in this case. The flying of the flag is a hot topic right now because the SC courthouse flies it. I don’t know whether all chapters of the KKK use the flag as their symbol though. There are also KKK chapters in the North.

@All Based upon your posts and a little bit of research, my negative opinion of those who display the Confederate flag has ratcheted down a notch or two. It would take finding out their understanding of its history and what it means to them first as it isn’t always about oppression. In some cases, it is blatantly obvious, such as the upcoming KKK rally.

The nephew may have an intent to educate his FB friends on why the Confederate flag shouldn’t be looked upon as a symbol that should be removed from society, but his reasoning is way off-base.

@Pied_Pfeffer Why do you say he wasn’t a Christian? Because he didn’t identify as one, or in your view he did not portray himself as having Christian values. Either answer is valid to me, I just wonder which one it is.

I don’t care if random yahoos want to put the flag up on their private property. But in South Carolina, the flags were up flying over public municipal buildings. And that’s a whole different thing. That’s not a matter of personal expression. Taxes were being used to pay for the flags. It’s showing that the government and the community who elected the officials all approve of this and what it represents. How sure should a black man feel he’s going to have a fair trial when that flag is over the courthouse?

Also, it galls me when these people are whining because they can’t buy the flag at Walmart. The government didn’t stop the sale of the flags. Those stores chose to do that on their own. And it wasn’t simply because they didn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. They thought having those flags would cause people to stop shopping at their stores and start going somewhere else. “Free market, baby…” as a conservative friend of mine constantly says. Free market also works in ways that you don’t like it. So stop whining about it.

btw, I was very sad to find out that the guy who bought the original “General Lee” car spray painted over the Confederate flag on it. That’s TV history! Those poor Duke boys!

@JLeslie A bit of both. The family may have belonged to a church, but I don’t recall them going or talking about it ever, whereas I can still name where all of my other friends went to worship and those that didn’t. Even if the family did belong to one, the messages appeared to be lost on the dad based upon his actions. This is the only example where I was privy to some background. The point is, who knows if those that support the display of the flag are Christian or not? And is it pertinent?

@keobooks It’s understandable how you feel. I immediately felt the same way when finding out that the SC capitol is still flying the flag in front of a govt. building. If you lived in SC, would you choose to vote for a govt. official on their stance on whether or not the flag should be taken down or left up? Would you pass up a govt. job there because there is no intent to take it down? My guess is that the people of that state have bigger fish to fry. Unless it becomes illegal (which isn’t going to happen any time soon), someone in power makes the decision to stop flying it, or the state offers a democratic vote on the topic, it isn’t going to change.

According to some, their perspective for flying the flag is that it represents a message that is completely lost in today’s society. It wasn’t about oppression and slavery. I’m fairly certain that is the stance that the nephew and sister are taking (Neither own a Confederate flag in any way, shape or form.)

Despite that, with the flag’s resurgence in popularity, its symbolism has come to represent white supremacy. While there is truth in that, we have to take into account that the North felt the same way during the Civil War.

The question boils down to the reason behind the desire to display the flag today. Personally, I still don’t think it should be flown at a govt. building. If someone wants to hoist the flag in their front yard or back of their pick-up or any other form, so be it. I would just like to know why they choose to do so.

Here is a montage of reports and discussions from CNN on the Confederate flag. It’s interesting.

If it’s just about Southern Pride and stuff, why were republicans in Iowa pasting the flag up on parade floats? They say to honor confederate veterans, but Iowa is a northern state without a lot of transplants coming from outside to live there. It seem really weird to me to honor a bunch of soldiers that were trying to kill your own soldier ancestors. How can Iowa have any Southern pride? Iowa? Maybe the pride of the few confederate sympathizers in the southern border of the state who harbored confederate bushwackers who raided Iowa during the war?

If it was only about Southern Pride, there would be no confederate flags flying in parades in Iowa. It must mean something to conservative republicans that it didn’t mean before.

According to the article, Owen Golay said that he flew the flags to point out that Confederate veterans are still veterans.

“This was my whole point with this whole exercise: to represent a segment of American veterans that are being buried in history, three of which are buried in Marion County,” he told the Des Moines Register.

According to this article, he also hangs one outside of his home regularly.

If Mr. & Mrs. Golay’s reasoning for doing so is to provide a constant reminder of the three Confederate soldiers buried in the local cemetery, it seems like a silly way to go about it in both cases. Why not get the local paper to snap a photo of them tidying up the burial plots, stick a little Confederate flag on each and provide an explanation? It’s likely that there is more intent to their actions than they are letting on.

To say that “it must mean something to conservative republicans that it didn’t mean before” implies that most or all feel the same way that this couple does. Do you honestly believe that @keobooks?

@Pied_Pfeffer I brought up Christianity in terms of being part of the majority in a community, not that Christians today are racist or all want the “old” south. Remember, I think the majority of Americans aren’t racist, and I think the majority of people who want the confederate flag to still fly are not racist, but I think a portion of them are. The man you describe, whether he was a practicing Christian or not, I would bet he identifies as a Christian on a hospital form, but I can’t know for sure. It isn’t relevant, in that it’s not like I think Christians are more likely to be bad people or something, I think the opposite.

It’s not that the majority of Christians support flying that flag, I was saying the majority of people who support flying it are probably Christian. Huge difference. I don’t associate Christianity with the Confederate flag, but it wouldn’t surprise me if some people do. I remember once in NC some Christians came into the store I worked at trying to preach their thing. Of course they aren’t allowed to in the place if business, so we ask them to stop fairly quickly. As they walked away my black coworker said something about Christianity and how they used it to support racism in the past. I had never known that or associated the two things before. I had never associated religion with anything before I moved to the south, the idea was not in my head ever. It wasn’t until I moved to the south that I started seeing religion sometimes intertwined with politics, or as a way to separate people (except for when religions shun family members who leave a religion, that I was aware of). Religion being used to unite people on anything outside of religious belief was all pretty new to me. In history the KKK used Christianity as part of their schtick. I guess that’s what my coworker was referring to. I think the Muslims sometimes tried to convert black people with the idea Christianity is the religion of the white slave owner, but I’m not saying that is the case present day, I’m just saying maybe there is some sort of remnant of that idea around. Most black people I know are Christian, so I don’t think that is a prominent thought process.

I don’t see why you think @keobooks is generalizing about all conservative republicans. What are the chances someone waving that flag is a liberal? What are the chances a northern group is using that flag to represent having southern pride or that their forefathers fought as soldiers in the war? It might represent for some state’s rights, or their disgust with the federal government. This goes back again, we are not saying all or even most conservative republicans wave that flag, but that most people who do use that flag are conservative republicans. It wouldn’t surprise me if many of them identify as libertarians too.

I’m not just talking about the guy who decided to put it on the float, I’m talking about the huge crowd of people cheering for the flag when it was going through the parade. Do you think they had any clue at all about the three buried soldiers? They were cheering for that flag and whatever they think it represents. It sure isn’t Southern pride, because Iowa was very much a northern state.

Ah, I see that now. Geez. I have no idea what the parade watchers were cheering about. Maybe it was for the politicians on the float. Maybe it was for the nod for the dead soldiers (which doesn’t make much sense since it’s a July 4th and not Veteran’s Day parade.) Maybe there’s a bunch of racist people in Iowa. It could be a mix of all three. No matter what their reasons were, it wasn’t about Southern pride.

Where I am right now on this subject is that there can be many reasons why an individual might display the Confederate flag. We can’t lump them all into one explanation. I still feel that they should be limited to museums, cemeteries, and Civil War reenactments.

On a side note, did you see the news report that the SC govt. voted on whether or not to take the flag down from its capitol? The final call was to stop flying it. That’s one more step in the right direction.

Also, have you seen the articles about Josh Clark’s FB post?

@Pied_Pfeffer good article.

Is this wrong of me? Every time I see a confederate flag in my news feed, I make a post in support of the Dukes of Hazzard. Because of COURSE that’s the best reason to support the confederate flag. That sherif Lobo! When will he ever learn?

@keobooks LOL! I never watched the show. It only took a short drive out into the county to experience real life versions of it.