Would you say that some people never obtain wealth even though they desire it, is because they can never imagine they can achieve it?

Yes. If you think you can you might. If you think you can’t you’re right.

How would you go “after it”? Define it. Give me a tangible plan that would work for everyone making minimum wage. How could they all be rich or even not on food stamps if they just worked harder… You can’t. It is mathematically impossible so I will save you the trouble unless you have the government shifting wealth and I am pretty sure you hate that..

@johnpowell How would you go “after it”? Define it. Give me a tangible plan that would work for everyone making minimum wage.
There is no one way that will work for everyone like a cookie cutter. Even study and school work doesn’t do that. Some people have skills that can allow them to tap into things others cannot. Some have hobbies that ca n be parlayed into income. The best laid plans, with all the support is doomed to fail if the person doing it has no confidence in it. If they believe nothing will come from it, subconsciously I bet they will see nothing does.

I believe that wealth eludes people because they lack the necessary moral deficiency to pursue it.

It isn’t that straightforward. There are plenty of examples of people who began enterprises simply to earn a decent living or even just to earn a little extra money and who wound up wealthy beyond their wildest dreams.

I’ve always wanted to start my own church in the US. Seems very lucrative and, best of all, NO TAXES! Also, it wouldn’t be very honest.

I think what you are referring to is the odd sense people have of not being deserving or they have a self defeating attitude. It is a psychological issue. Many people with a talent or a product or service under price themselves. Because it may come easy to them, they undervalue what they provide. Quite simple really. Then they meet someone like Thomas Edison or Steve Jobs or Bill Gates and get exploited and settle for a pat on the head by a charismatic leader.

It isn’t always how you think about it, but how you actually do it.

Are you completely sure that they do absolutely nothing? Some people try, but they just don’t do it the right way.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One has it right.

It is an age old truth.
If you don’t visualize it, you won’t achieve it. From a foul shot, to wealth to surviving combat, it is always true.

I understand that outlook and attitude can have an affect on our happiness. But are we proposing that this applies to the concept of financial wealth? Are we saying that the wealthy are wealthy because they combined their hard work with their ability to believe they can? And does this mean that the poor are merely suffering from a lack of effort and vision?

How are we defining wealth for this Q?

There is no simple answer. It isn’t just one reason usually, but many reasons. Mostly, I think it has to do with they don’t figure out the formula. I think probably a lot of people visualize themselves wealthy and never achieve it. Also, lack of opportunity, big unexpected set backs, very few well paying jobs in their community and difficulty moving out.

This theory is reminiscent of Robert Preston’s “think method” that he promoted in his movie The Music Man. If you though about the right notes, you would be able to play them in the Boy’s Band.

And it is just as bogus as in the movie.

I agree that attitude is important – visualizing success can lead to success. Where I disagree is the concept that it will lead to wealth or success. It’s not automatic and by no means a sure thing. There are far too many external factors that come into play.

There is nothing you can do that will guarantee success. There are, however, things you can do to guarantee failure. The only thing we can do is to shift the odds of success. There are way to many ‘rags to riches stories’ to say it can’t be done. Sometimes it takes a lifetime to get there and sometimes you never do but if you don’t know where your going, you’ll never get there.

I always thought I could create a reasonably comfortable (well off, but not rich) world for my kids. But things (mostly having no one to watch my kids while I worked the hours and traveled in my search for riches) kept getting in the way.

Probably a poor analogy/metaphor (crap, I need to ask a separate question about the difference between these two), but I was recently discussing wealth with my oldest, and I thought of financial wealth as trying to produce a harvest from a garden plot.

Some people have a large garden plot full of rich soil and an irrigation system. They also have been given a starter set of seeds, and may have been provided with a gardener to do most of the work. Their harvest is so great, they are able to sell seeds at a great profit.

Others’ garden plots may be smaller, with dry soil. They may have to lug the water from far away. And their seeds may have to be purchased from those with healthy, thriving gardens (with interest). Much of their harvest goes towards paying off debt for the purchased seeds.

For most people, their garden plot consists of a few cracks in between the pavement. They must spend their time pulling weeds and cleaning out the oil and cigarette butts in order to even plant anything. And since they can’t afford any seeds, they either need to get themselves into crippling debt, sell off their plot, or steal a few seeds.

Equal amounts of effort and vision will not produce the same harvest. No amount of effort and vision will produce a healthy harvest from those who must plant in the cracks*.

* Yes, there are the rags-to-riches stories. These stories are similar to people winning the lottery. They’re rare and do not happen in a vacuum. Plenty of luck is involved. These stories are popular in a capitalist culture. The poor want some hope that they can make it, and the rich want to feel justified in being wealthy. Many people want to believe that we all start with the same opportunity, and that financial wealth is really just a matter of working hard enough and being persistent. These stories are part of the mythology that keeps nearly everyone from complaining too much about wealth inequality.

People can sometimes achieve wealth without having any to start with, but having money initially to help make more money helps a bunch!

@DoNotKnow – Interesting analogy but obviously designed to prove that you can only succeed if someone gives you something.

” they either need to get themselves into crippling debt, sell off their plot, or steal a few seeds.”

Actually the first two are viable options. If you’re trying to plant in a crack, sell it off and do something else. If you’re trying to grow a garden in a crack, you may not be a good gardener. Or maybe tear up some of the concrete to make room for a garden.

The bottom line is that if you don’t have the skills, you need to get them rather than just lamenting those that do. It’s never easy even for those you consider just lucky. The harder I work, the luckier I get.

I could accept that there is some correlation between how someone assesses the possibility of becoming wealthy and the likelihood of actually achieving it, simply because that belief in the possibility will affect certain decisions along the way.

People tend to be risk-averse. We like to get stuff, but not quite as much as we hate losing stuff. To become wealthy usually requires putting some of your assets (money, family time, leisure, etc.) at risk. If you believe there’s a good chance that risk will pay off, then you’re more likely to overcome your risk aversion and take the chance. If you judge that the risk is unlikely to pay off, then you’ll prefer to keep what you already have.

There’s also something about people who are supremely confident of their potential for success that inspires others to invest in them and capitalize their risk-taking.

I certainly wouldn’t say that there’s some inherent superiority in believing that you can become wealthy and acting accordingly. We love a good story of people who fight long odds and get to the top, and we tend to praise their optimism and spirit, but the people for whom the risk-taking goes badly don’t attract the same admiration, even though they have the same optimism and spirit. How many would have been better off had they just kept what they already had? Perhaps most? But those cases don’t make for very good stories.

Probably, I do know unless you are the CEO of some giant company you are never going to become wealthy working for someone else, it involves some risk taking ,and it could go tits up and you lose everything and for some those are risks they would not rather take.

@stanleybmanly “It isn’t that straightforward. There are plenty of examples of people who began enterprises simply to earn a decent living or even just to earn a little extra money and who wound up wealthy beyond their wildest dreams.”

That may be, but sure cases are an exception to the rule. Capitalism is by its nature a predatory system. Generally speaking to have success within that system one must likewise have a predatory nature. Such a nature requires, or leads to, shift-able morals at best.

@Darth_Algar I believe that wealth eludes people because they lack the necessary moral deficiency to pursue it.
In which way?

@stanleybmanly There are plenty of examples of people who began enterprises simply to earn a decent living or even just to earn a little extra money and who wound up wealthy beyond their wildest dreams. There are plenty of examples of people who began enterprises simply to earn a decent living or even just to earn a little extra money and who wound up wealthy beyond their wildest dreams.
I never said it was impossible, some people by sheer fortune come upon the widget, Pet Rock, Cabbage Patch Doll, book series on kid wizards etc. that many people feel they have to have.

@Mimishu1995 Some people try, but they just don’t do it the right way.
Doing it but employing methods that doesn’t lead to success, is not the same as not even trying as to use any method.

@DoNotKnow And does this mean that the poor are merely suffering from a lack of effort and vision?
I do not think it is a lack of vision per se, but the lack of believing they can reach that vision, so they don’t try.

@JLeslie How are we defining wealth for this Q?
I am saying wealth in a manner that you can survive a crisis like having your tranny drop, having cash flow that if you lost your job your maintenance bills, utilities, mortgage, food, insurance, etc. are paid; basically you can survive off the money making you money that you don’t have to work for it or be on the street. That is the minimum, above that, having exotic cars, private jets, etc.

@Jaxk The bottom line is that if you don’t have the skills, you need to get them rather than just lamenting those that do.
If you have a vision that requires a certain skill set, you either try to acquire the skill set yourself, or through an alliance with those who do have them. If you always complained the accountant has more money then you, but never find a way and make the time to go back to school, or even take online classes to be an accountant, or something else you can charge like him, you will always be stuck at the big box saying ”Welcome to [redacted], can I help you?”.

@Hypocrisy_Central For how long? You lose your job and you can maintain your lifestyle for 6 months? A year? Three years? You never have to work again?

@Hypocrisy_Central that’s why I asked “are you completely sure?”. I already know they are different.

I agree that they need to have a will, but would that be fair to say anyone who can’t get rich just don’t try to get rich?

^^ For how long?
Indefinitely, you have positive cash flow from other investment and such that if you lost your job, you would still have enough money to cover the basics even if you never worked again, you may not be as wealthy but you would not be ruined by the loss of a job.

@Hypicrisy_Central That’s how I define it too. That’s pretty hard to achieve for most people in my opinion. I think the average person typically strives for that in retirement.

I still stick with my first answer, but I’m going to add in got the wealth you describe a person usually needs to be willing to take done risks, and be willing to fail, get back up, and try again. Perseverance and hard word.

The formula I mentioned mostly rides on being willing to save. If you spend everything as soon as the money comes in it is impossible to be wealthy. I’ve heard it called “the poor mentality”. You can make $200k a year and have this mentality and as soon as you hit a bump of bad luck, like losing your job, you are losing your house, eating pasta every day, and setting yourself up for things to cost more in the future, because your credit gets some bad marks. You have to sacrifice to gain later. You might notice that most of the people with the most money are fairly frugal. Some people view that as a bad trait. I would agree the extreme of it is bad, like any extreme, but most are not extreme. Being proud of spending lots of money is a recipe for disaster. The people I know with money discuss money. They discuss investments and financial ideas. People who feel that is in bad taste or bragging will never get the helpful hints from their peers who are successful. I’m not talking about how much income one might make from a job, but more about how people invest discretionary income. Also, using tax laws, etc.

^ If you spend everything as soon as the money comes in it is impossible to be wealthy.
That is part of the problem; here in the US everyone wants everything now. You can live like the Rockefellers all you have to do is charge it, get it now and pay it off later. When I was a kid people saved or they used lay-a-way. No one wants to wait and they want top quality stuff. Why some who win lotto become broke way too early? They go and buy stuff, cars, cash, clothes, and cribs, all that sucks money away from the bank and rarely puts any back. It doesn’t take that much to figure if more goes out than is coming in, the tank will eventually go dry.