"If a student can't be forced to recite the Pledge against his own conscience, a baker can't be forced to bake a cake." What's your opinion on this statement?

Students don’t get to choose about going to school.

Bakers don’t have to be in a public accommodating business if they don’t want to. And they don’t need to question customers before deciding to do business with them.

How about this statement? -

“If a Jewish doctor still treats patients with swastika tattoos then a Christian can suck it up and bake a cake for a gay person”.

Would you really want a cake baked by someone that was forced to bake it?

Apples to oranges.

A business is licensed by the state to serve the public. They cannot legally discriminate.

A student is forced to go to school, no choice in the matter because the student is a minor.

(And in some school systems, the student can choose not to say the pledge by either leaving the room or by remaining silent).

So… incredibly poor comparison.

As @chyna pointed out, I wouldn’t want to eat that cake, but as @elbanditoroso says, the comparison is just silly, the two are not comparable, unless one also stipulates that, for example, girls be barred from reciting the pledge because of their sex.

Discrimination in public circumstances is unlawful. It’s that simple.

#BackToTheQuestion…. By “conscience” do you mean “will?”.... Cos if its will then it aint conscience and if its conscience then it aint will. The are both different territories.

It’s comparing apples and oranges.

A student is a private individual.

A baker is in a licensed commercial business.

A better analogy that I saw was a nurse who said, “If I am forced to care for a neoNazi or a murderer, then a baker can bake a cake for a gay couple.”

The reality is that someone would not want someone touching their food who was not willing and honorable.

The difference is that when you make a pledge you are making a personal commitment. When you make a cake, you are just making a cake. If you have a business that makes cakes for the public then you may not legally discriminate based on race, gender or sexual preference, regardless of your personal attitude.

@marinelife I absolutely agree with the nurse you quote.

This controversy leaves me clueless to understand. How does baking a gay wedding cake threaten the religious beliefs of the baker?

Mark 2:15–17
“And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him

And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?

When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Bottom line? The guy should have just made the cake. Even if he didn’t agree with their lifestyle, it is absolutely the Christian thing to do to make the cake just as skillfully as he would any other cake.

I’ve thought about this long and hard. If I was a business owner I wouldn’t like to have to make a cake for a neo nazi (Not that they would ever ask me to make a cake. LOL) for example if I was a baker, or a shop owner or provide any kind of public service. But it’s a slippery slope. This black baker won’t bake for white people. White person won’t serve black people or any mix race. Christians won’t bake for gays. Gay men won’t bake for straight men. Jews won’t serve non jews. So on and so on. And we are back in segregation.

So it’s not about just one persons individual rights and prejudices. If you allow one person to cross that barrier than you must allow other prejudices. And none should be allowed.
If a person gets into public (meaning all of the public) commerce they should accept that all of their clients will not be to their liking. I would think that as a business person you started your business to make money. The only person anyone should discriminate against are thugs that harass or scare business away or someone who has personally done something to make you hate them. Like an ex.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One Thanks for the passage. I never knew where to find it. My dad use to say that Church was for sinners, not for Saints, because all the Saints are in heaven or will go there whether they go to church or not
And as Christians, judgement of sins is not our job. A good Christian leads by love. Not hate or prejudice. A hard path to follow. But if a person is going to claim that they are not going to bake for a gay couple because of their Christian faith, than they are lying about their faith.

The matter could be decided in both cases depending on who is getting paid and who isn’t. Pay the student for the pledge and I’d bet he’d sing out. Deny the baker payment for the cake and who would bitch if he wanted to make one or not?

Two separate issues. I really need to keep this handy to copy and paste.

1)
The baker does not have to bake a particular cake. The baker is not forced to write “God is dead” or anything else on a cake. You can’t make someone bake a penis-shaped cake or a swastika cake. That does not happen.

2)
If the baker serves the public, the baker serves all the public. You can’t refuse service to Jews or blacks or even Nazis, if they ask for the same cake you serve other people.

If you sell cakes, you sell cakes to everyone.

From what I understand they did sell cakes to these same people before, they just didn’t want to bake a wedding cake for them.

I can see both sides. As a business they could have said they were too busy on the date and could not take the order. It’s not unusual to refuse business if a place is all booked up. I am completely against now allowing someone into a place of business, like putting out a sign that gay people aren’t welcome, or black people, Irish, Jews, etc. I also believe anything for sale at the store front is available for everyone to buy. But, special orders can be seen as different I think.

Although, having said all of that, if there is going to be a law, my law is businesses open to the public can’t discriminate.

What if someone had asked them to bake a cake to look like a penis and scrotum? I wouldn’t do it. And seeing where this country (USA) is going, I imagine they’d shut me down or fine me or send me to jail for refusing to do it.

There’s no end to it.

@snowberry

Dramatic much?

@Darth_Algar Eh, I can see it happening~ just give it time. I bet the guy who lost his bakery wouldn’t have been able to imagine things as they are now ten years ago, but it’s happening. And this place is FULL of drama queens. I couldn’t compete with them, but thanks for trying.

You seriously think at some point a person will be jailed for refusing to draw a dick on a cake?

@Darth_Algar I picked that as a possible example. I intended it to sound bizarre today. Life as we know it has changed so much in the last 50 years I wouldn’t be surprised. In 5, 10, 15, 20 years, as fast as politics are moving, I suppose it, or something equally bizarre might actually happen.

Right. Ok then.

@snowberry , You say you don’t know how to make it but you can give them a carrot and two cherries to put on the cake and it will cost an extra 50 bucks. See you didn’t deny them. Just overcharged and chances are they will forget about having it or pay the 50 bucks. Either way you win.

@Darth_Algar “You seriously think at some point a person will be jailed for refusing to draw a dick on a cake?” That’s why I’ll NEVER vote for any candidate from the Dicktatorial Satanist party! ;-o

@snowberry I imagine they’d shut me down or fine me or send me to jail for refusing to do it.

Read my previous comment to see how US law works. Feel free to ask questions if it isn’t clear.

@Pandora Isn’t over-charging a specific group illegal? I know there has been some question about dry cleaners and hair salons discriminating. I’m not sure where that wound up legally.

@JLeslie

Overcharging a specific group of people sure. But I think it would be hard to argue that dick imagery constitutes a specif group of people.

@Darth_Algar I would think there would have to be a pattern of over-charging a specific group of people regardless of the product. Even that is probably tricky, because it’s legal to charge different prices to different people when you aren’t discriminating.

@JLeslie

Sure, but what specific group would be coming in ordering dick cakes a lot? Drunken frat boys maybe?

^^^Bachlorette parties. Penises on cakes is nothing new.

@JLeslie Over charging (price gouging) is always illegal but banks have been getting away with it for years. But if you are overcharging only for being required to do something you normally would never do or want to than that is a different matter. Like putting something offensive on a cake. Than that is up to you. I see it no more different than when you ask a lawn guy that only cuts grass to include cleaning the gutter. If he wants to charge extra for that job than anyone else than why not. It may take the same amount of time as cutting your yard but instead of charging you 25 for the yard and 25 for the gutter, he will charge you 50 for the gutter because it isn’t in the things he normally does and he doesn’t want it to be something he is known to do or cares to do.
A baker could always simply put up a sign saying they do not do pornographic art work. That would not be said to target any group unless they only did it for bachlorette parties and not for gay parties.
@bossob Has a point. But if someone doesn’t want to make graffic cakes then they don’t. End of story. There is a difference between making no cake and making a cake without something graffic on it.

I believe the baker didn’t want to make a cake period. Denying any kid of service.