Once an alcoholic always an alcoholic?

I don’t agree with that truism. I’ve known too many people who overcome serious problems with alcohol and later become moderate, social drinkers.

Many people believe the A.A. slogan and will attack me vehemently for holding a different position.

In my own experience yes and experts in that field of addiction also will strongly say yes.

I am a recovered alcoholic. I stopped drinking 16 years ago. I worked the 12 steps and now live a life free from the tyranny of alcohol.

I cope with life in many good ways now, but I’m sure that my behavior can most likely reflect my alcoholism at times. I hope those times are now few and far between, but I don’t know.

I would like to point out it’s possible to have an alcoholic mother instead of father. Yes, the majority of alcoholics are men, but there are female alcoholics, too. I’m sorry your husband is exhibiting behavior that is most likely undesirable, thus the reason for your question. Living with an alcoholic as a parent is an important source of primary trauma, and your husband could probably use help healing from that.

@Love_my_doggie I can only speak for myself. I am an alcoholic, and I can never safely drink any amount of alcohol again. I cannot speak for others.

Yes. Same with smokers.

Everyone’s brain is prone to certain “feel good” substances, whether sugar or alcohol or even compulsive exercise. Under stress those old neuro-pathways re-engage. Some may go through a phase of heavy drinking or drug use during extreme stress and then re-emrge to return to a more temperate pattern of behavior, but for those that are very prone to addiction, total abstinence is usually the path to pursue. I quit smoking forever but since I have been under a lot of stress the past few years, yep, the smoking monkey is back and I will have to go through the entire cessation scene again.

In my favor I have not resumed my former habit in a large way but yep, I really, really, really WANT those few smokes every day now again now. it sucks, but it is not a surprise. Addiction is a slippery slope.

Yes, it’s true.

@Hawaii_Jake I admire how you’ve turned around your own life, and I appreciate your attitude of tolerance and acceptance.

I think that “once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic” is broad, safe, and blanket advice. People with alcohol problems are routinely told never to touch another drop, mostly because the consequences of drinking again could be grave. No sane therapist would say, “Sure, go ahead and drink” to a recovering alcoholic. As I mentioned above, however, I know numerous people who were once alcohol-troubled and now drink responsibly and moderately.

As with most things in life, it’s good to be wary of such restrictive terms as “always” and “never.” Absolutes are seldom valid.

That is how I treat my friends who have stated they were. Nothing is mentioned. I simply do not have any alcohol in sight and nobody gets served any. Activities are not built around drinking.
It takes great strength to admit one is an alcoholic and I will always honor and support that.

As a recovering alcoholic with almost 30 years sobriety, those of us who are actually alcoholic would fall back into it by drinking even a little after a period of sobriety.

Yes, as @Love_my_doggie points out, people who are heavy drinkers who get into trouble may learn to drink in moderation. However, they are not alcoholics; by definition they are problem drinkers. If they can control their drinking, then they won’t ever have a problem.

The difficulty in ascribing a person’s drinking as inherited from the father is that while there are apparently genetic markers, much of the behavior is based on the family and the environment in which the child grows.

The other thing is that the behaviors that go along with alcoholism need to be addressed in addition to not drinking. As I have heard in meetings, getting sober is easy; it’s staying sober that’s hard.

While some people do have addictive personalities and tendencies. I don’t believe that they are all doomed to let history repeat. If they want to stay away from the addictive substance; they will with enough will power. I’m not saying its easy, but it is very plausible.

I agree with @zenvelo.

@zenvelo There’s no consensus about the meaning of the word “alcoholic,” which is at the root any debate. Under some definitions, an alcoholic is someone with a physical dependency and who must undergo detox. Other people argue that an emotional need or reliance is alcoholism. Still other alcoholics are situational; they fall into bad drinking habits, such as meeting friends at a bar every night, and develop unfortunate tendencies.

My husband of 58 could not drink unless he got drunk.
about 15 years ago he drove home and didn’t remember
a thing and that scared him and he stopped drinking
cold turkey by himself (stopped smoking at the same time).
He hasn’t touched a drop since. He sometimes gets mad
and frustrated at things and I know we all do but his sister
says its the alcohol in him talking. He is type A personality
and def some OC behavior in his personality. His mom told
me 28 years ago before we married he would be a hard man
to get along with…but of course I didn’t listen. I am very passive
and laid back where he is not and it doesn’t bother me that he
makes most of the decisions so I think that is why it has worked.

I can say this was true for my mother, though she never quit drinking.

@kritiper Your answer might be good as a separate question. I’m going on 13 years smoke free after being an on and off smoker for 15 years. I quit cold turkey the last (and final) time. I have not desired a cigarette since I quit. I can smell cigarette smoke on the people next to me and it repulses me and makes me physically ill. I know I will never smoke again or have the desire to.

@Love_my_doggie Don’t know where you get your information, but the definition of an alcoholic is a man or woman who has lost the ability to control their drinking.

“Situational”, as I described in my post above, is a person who is a heavy drinker. That does not make them an alcoholic, it means they have not learned to control their drinking.

@MooCows what you are describing is a “dry drunk” which is the situation of an alcoholic who is not drinking but has not addressed the emotional and psychological ramifications of their alcoholism.

Dry drunk is exactly what I was looking for.
What are some of the symptoms and
how do you get help for them?
I really don’t think my husband would
ever get help for it but just wondering.

@NerdyKeith From my own experience as an alcoholic I did tons of research to understand why I was doing what I was doing. Getting high produces a pleasure response in the brain which generates dopamine which in itself is as powerful as heroin. This dopamine response is a biochemical reaction in the brain to record pleasureable and actions the ensure the survival of the species like sex and eating the right foods. Alcohol starts out for most as having a drink in social settings and at holidays. Then you start to have alcohol with dinner and as a reward for a hard days work. Then as it progresses one drink is not enough and over time will escalate to many drinks and then sunrise to well into the night non-stop drinking.

Now consider a normal healthy dopamine response is recorded in the brain by a pathway of connections that is there to remind the healthy person that repeating that behavior is good. For addicts that pathway is now a raging river carving a canyon into the brain that is there forever and will never heal or function normally ever again and why alcoholics realistically can never have a drop of booze or that canyon will be quickly raging again. I know it happened to me until I finally made the conscious choice to never drink again.

@MooCows If possible, he should seek therapy. A professional may recommend other ideas like AA.

FWIW the son of one of my key suppliers who I knew very well and is 5 years younger than me, I just found out passed away in his sleep last night. 49 years old and had serious issues with drugs and alcohol. In the 20 years I have known him he was always lit when I saw him. Numerous attempts at sobriety and now he is gone.

I will also add that during my journey through AA I wrote down all my triggers and reasons I felt caused me to want to drink. The list was quite long and essentially meant I would have to give up my entire life to avoid those triggers which obviously is not a realistic option and that is where the heavy lifting begins for all recovering addicts is facing your triggers head on and learning new ways to cope with the triggers. Easy to say very hard to do. Very hard.

For the people here that are in recovery and doing well, I applaud you. I come from a long line of alcoholics who were never interested in recovery. The peripheral damage was and is tragic and immense for those anywhere near them. They never quit and they died young. I am the only male in my father’s side of the family who has lived longer than 57 years in the past three generations. I applaud you all.

This is part of the philosophy embraced and taught by members of Al-Anon, a group for family and friends of alcoholics. AA and Al-Anon members alike say that you can get rid of the alcohol, but getting rid of the ism takes a lot longer.

I couldn’t count the number of times I’ve heard someone say that they didn’t realize they’d been affected by alcoholism, because there were no active drinkers in their lives, until they heard other people’s stories and realized that the effects of addiction were all over their lives or the lives of people close to them.

The amount of wreckage that one compulsive drinker or user can leave in the lives around them and even long after them is beyond calculation. Here’s a saying that has stuck with me: Alcoholism is such a powerful disease that it can kill people who don’t even have it.

My ex husband was a problem drinker and it caused me so much grief and anxiety years ago until I learned about codependency and divorced him. Nothing worse, and I mean NOTHING, than waiting up for a drunk loved one to come home, knowing they shouldn’t be driving, waiting in terror. never again. I drink very moderately, maybe a couple beers of glasses of wine once or twice a month, never drink and drive and my personality does not change.
I loathe drunken assholes, male or female.

Whether that is loud and obnoxious behavior or getting all weepy and maudlin. If you can’t have a few drinks without morphing into a psycho then just don’t drink, period.

@Cruiser Thanks for sharing. I cannot say I know what you’ve gone through, as I’ve never gone through addiction. Plus I’m a very moderate drinker.

But I have heard from many recovering alcoholics that they end up just cutting alcohol out completely.

There is a difference between drunks and alcoholics. It is like an allergy. There are people, who can eat shellfish, and they are fine. There are people who eat shellfish and have adverse reactions. Often those very people will crave what they know will harm them, and eat the shellfish knowing it will be bad for them later. They can be fine as long as they don’t eat the shellfish, but as soon as they do, it goes bad for them.
Some people are not allergic to shellfish, but they are gluttons, and eat too much and vomit. Those people can learn to eat in moderation and be fine.

Having worked in a substance abuse program in a teaching capacity I learned a bit about the “disease” of alcoholism. 12 step programs really offer huge support, Ongoing. It was taught that for example if a person drinks for a number of years, say 15 years and then sober up with any method used, that if you were to start drinking after 10 years sober that You will PICK UP RIGHT WHERE YOU LEFT OFF 10 YEARS GO (in terms of the disease) I have observed that in family members.

@MooCows For an alcoholic (standard definition) that there is NOTHING that can happen which would be so bad THAT A DRINK WOULDN’T MAKE IT WORSE!

I’m so glad that @Jeruba mentioned Al-Anon and the issues surrounding family members of alcoholics. And that also includes you @MooCows by virtue of the fact that you are married to one.

I’m also going to mention a group called ACOA (Adult Children of Alcoholics) for those like your husband who grew up in an alcoholic family system.

There is an entire subset of behaviors that have to be dealt with if one has grown up with an alcoholic parent which are related to yet separate and distinct from alcoholism (altho there is obviously a lot of overlap)

It’s difficult to know whether the behaviors of your husband are the result of his own “dry-drunk” alcoholism or from growing up as the son of one. I suspect it’s a bit of both.

However, I’m certain that if he ever wanted to get some valuable insight into himself and why he does the things he does he could benefit greatly from going to an ACOA group or even Al-Anon or even A A.

But since he is not currently drinking, he might feel more comfortable and open to receiving insight from the first two I mentioned.

As for yourself, I think finding an Al-Anon group could be enormously helpful for you. I’m sure there are several in your area.

You don’t even have to participate. You could just go and listen to others sharing their experiences. I think you could gain valuable knowledge to help you cope with and understand your husbands behavior, regardless of whether he ever decides to get some help for himself.

Please do give a few of them a try. If you don’t feel comfortable in the first group you go to then try a few different ones. I think it woukd be well worth your time.

Even tho I never became an alcoholic, growing up with two drunks for parents definitely affected my life in numerous ways I had not recognized prior to going to several groups.

I’m sure there are ways that your husbands alcoholism has affected you that you’re totally unaware of. Recognizing that can be enormously helpful.

BTW Janet Woititz has written several books for ACOA issues and there others. Reading hers and others will give you some very valuable insights to your husbands childhood hell and how it formed his personality.

And he, of course, could gain valuable info as well.

And the link below is from an author who lists several helpful books as well as describing her previous attitudes regarding “cheesy” self help books.
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https://www.thefix.com/content/8-books-helped-me-acoa-recovery

Ran out of edit time.
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http://al-anon.org/al-anon-literature
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You didn’t mention whether or not the two of you have any children but there are also Al-ateen groups. And if you’re wondering if it has affected them there is no doubt. YES it definitely has even if they’re now grown adults.

This is a good thread.

Alcoholism is not just drinking too much alcohol. It’s a whole set of maladaptive behaviors. We alcoholics for whatever reason don’t have the skills to cope with much of what life throws at us. Alcohol is an easy way to do that. However, it’s ineffective.

Getting sober is a long process of learning better behavioral skills. It’s a very long process. To put it bluntly, sobriety is like being reborn and starting all over as an infant. The advantage we have is that we can learn faster since we already know how to talk and read, etc. We have a leg up on infants. We aren’t cuter than infants, but that’s another story.

@Love_my_doggie

I’m certainly not going to demonize you for saying what you did. And, yes, there is no doubt that there are numerous heavy drinkers who have successfully cut back considerably on the amounts they drink.

There was even a fairly well known program popular in the 90s called Moderation Management.

But there’s a basic flaw in your thinking. If a person can successfully “manage” their drinking, then, by definition, it’s highly unlikely that they are alcoholics. They might be well on the way to becoming one, but if they can manage to control it, they aren’t an alcoholic.

The first step to someone realizing they have a problem is admitting they are powerless over alcohol. If they can still control or manage it, then they aren’t there yet. When their life becomes unmanageable due to alcohol, that’s how they know that they qualify as an alcoholic.

Many people have the mistaken notion that an alcoholic is an alcoholic because of HOW MUCH they drink. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are lots of people who may be heavy drinkers and regularly so but are not alcoholics. How can this be?

What matters is WHY they drink, not the amount. An alcoholic drinks to escape from whatever part of life they feel they are unable to cope with, usually emotional issues, avoidance of painful situations, social anxiety or a million other “reasons”

They are using alcohol to cope. That is what’s unhealthy about it. The same goes for any other addictive substance.

Sometimes people get fixated upon the amount and feel that if they can control that then they aren’t an alcoholic. But that’s not the important part. The key to it is why they feel the NEED to drink. Not desire to drink, but NEED to drink.

@Cruiser was right on point when he spoke of listing his triggers as part of recovery. That gets at the WHY of drinking which is so much more important than the amount.

BTW: For anyone who may be reading this and thinking that Moderation Management sounds so much better than calling oneself an alcoholic, Google Audrey Kishline, the founder of the program who eventually realized that her drinking was out of control, left the grouo, went back to AA.

Unfortunately that happened immediately prior to her driving with four times the legal blood alcohol level in her system and killing two people.

I’m sure the family of the deceased wished she had gone back to AA sooner and spent less time trying to manage her drinking.

Will that happen to everyone. Of course not. That’s ridiculous.

But, logically speaking, anyone can live a long happy and successful life without alcohol. It’s not a necessity of life. It’s an indulgence, a luxury.

If you are someone who knows deep down that you are drinking for profoundly UNHEALTHY reasons, why wait until the consequences for yourself and/or others are so dire that there is no other conclusion?

Someone might be dead by then. Is that worth rolling the dice for that you can “manage” your NEED to drink.

The plain truth is that no healthy person really NEEDS to drink. That’s just a plain fact. If you NEED to drink, you need AA, not MM (Moderation Management)

@Hawaii_Jake

I was typing when you posted that and thank you for stating it so well.

You’re so right that it’s not just drinking too much alcohol. It’s using it like medication to cope with life.

@Buttonstc I too am an adult child of and alcoholic (ACOA). (a branch of alcoholics anonymous). AA is such a great organization.

It’s different for everyone. I drink but have been able to do it moderately and keep it moderate. When I was a smoker it was different, there was no moderation and I can never touch another cigarette. Been quit for over a decade now. Coffee…I’m like 5–10 cups a day. I drink as much coffee as I do water water. Probably won’t be stopping that anytime soon. I have an addictive personality but it does not extend to alcohol for whatever reason.

This is a great thread, like getting to a meeting!

@ARE_you_kidding_me Smoking was harder for me to quit than drinking was, partly because the physical addiction was greater, and also because I used to dose myself from the moment i woke up until I went to bed.

@zenvelo Smoking is the worst. As a 70’s girl I did it all but the damn smoking is the one thread that just can’t be severed, forever. I have gone to hypnosis, gone months and months and rationalize that smoking “American Spirits” the organic and chemical free natural tobacco is somehow not as bad as real cigarettes. Gah….I smoke less than a half a pack a day but I am so freaking stuck again.

@Coloma American spirits tasted like auto exhaust. I rationalized it with those things once too. Hitting the cardio was my magic bullet. Did it cold turkey….twice. Third time I chewed that horrible gum but it worked too. I could stay quit for years then have a single one and be right back on that train.

My dad was a pack a day smoker from age 14 to around 56. He quit and has not had one that I am aware of in nearly 10 years as well. It’s never too late.

I smoked for 19 years and stopped one day. I’ve tried it a couple of time since, with no appeal. Been about 17 years.

I drank every day for a couple of years, and one day lost my taste for it. It’s been a few months and I’ve had a drink and a beer or two. All they did was make me tired.

My mother was a life long smoker and was smoking three packs a day before her ruptured brain aneurysm at the age of 77. After her surgery to repair the aneurysm she could not feed herself, speak or walk. She simulated smoking by tugging at her nasal tubes and trying to smoke them. When she didn’t have the tubes she’d just take her fingers to her mouth and pucker her lips as if she were smoking. She also tried to smoke my finger when I was trying to hold her hand.

@dammitjanetfromvegas That’s really sad. She must have been really addicted to the nicotine. I can go hours and hours but yep, when I want a smoke, I really want it.

Alcohol and drugs are the poster childs of addition but we should not lose sight that other addictions like smoking, food, anorexia, porn, internet, cutting and late night horror shows are as serious addictions that deserve recognition as well as to how wide spread these issues are as too the obsessions and negative behaviors that accompany these behaviors.

Read various definitions documented by the World Health Organization.

http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/terminology/who_lexicon/en/

They used to describe it (about 12 years ago) as specifically, about 7–9 drinks per week for a woman and 12 drinks per week for a man, but now their definition has morphed into something more vague. The definition is not the same for everyone.

What you’re describing about your husband may be “dry drunk” syndrome, or can also be anxiety or depression, which is not uncommon from older people (not sure how old your hubby is). There may be a physical aspect, too, if he has illness(es), takes medications and/or doesn’t sleep well.

@jca One drink per day for wmen and 2 for men is the drinking guidelines I thought. My doctor told me it was one per day for women and that I could have one a day or all 7 at once as long as you don;t go over those guidelines. haha
I’d prefer to have 3.5 drinks twice a week, but I only drink like every other week. I had 2.5 glasses of wine last night before dinner.

@Coloma: Yes, that was about 12 years ago. The guidelines morph.

For me, it’s 4 drinks max at a party or wedding, which I will attend about 5 times a year. Other than that, I may have a glass of wine or two with family at a dinner party, which may be once every three months max. Total 28 drinks per year LOL.

@jca Yeah, same here, 4 max on certain occasions.

@Coloma Yes, the guidelines change over time, and there’s never been any consensus about exactly what is and isn’t “moderate” drinking. The same thing’s true for who is and isn’t an alcoholic or problem drinker.

As with anything in life, common sense has to dictate. When I was born, the “experts” told mothers that breastfeeding was a bad thing, and that every baby must be given canned formula loaded with chemicals and artificial sweeteners.

3.5 glasses a week

@ibstubro You show how shallow you are with regards to the hard road many valiant Jellies who have fought long and hard to walk away from the evils of alcohol. #umaythinkthatisfunnywedont

I’m sorry, @Cruiser.
It must be difficult being the arbiter humor as applied to addition.
People can be so insensitive.

@Cruiser You show how shallow you are.
What do you know of me and my addictions?
(not addition)

Seriously. What do you know of the struggles I’ve had in my life? That I’m shallow compared to you?
Step up to the bat. Share the specifics of my life that disqualify me from commenting on addiction. You’re somehow on a higher road than I am, enlighten me on my life.