Ever noticed, if a man offends a woman, then a gang of women band together, throw out any and all conventions of decorum, and proceed to gnaw the n*ts/b*lls of of the offending male?

What do you think men do when they get offended? And let me clarify—I’m not asking what they do when someone says something offensive—I mean when a man is truly upset, hurt, and offended—what does he do differently? Serious question.

@niki: exactly!! Have you ever seen a man in a group of his buddies take even the smallest hit from his wife/girlfriend, innocent or not, sitting down? Absolutely not.

that’s the sisterhood allengreen! And believe me, men don’t respond any differently – they are just more obvious about it and women are craftier. I think humans are pack animals and we all band together to defend a member of the pack

Um, make sweeping generalizations much?

@niki—good question—when offended men probably withdraw, or put up some front….but those behaviors are not damaging to discourse or the culture at large…

@syz——interact with other’s much?

@ag: Why do you produce some questions that are guarenteed to make even the most docile among us aggressive? Your query about your daughter was reasonable and got reasonable answers. Is there a reason these hot-button questions come only at night?

I won’t dignify this with an answer.

@AG: and for what it’s worth (or as Kev would say, FWIT) syz has provided extremely important and helpful answers to many of us. I speak for myself only when I say that without her, my visiting cat would be on the road with a thumb out and a sign saying, “Going to Vancouver?”

No. I have not observed the behavior you predicated in your question.

@allengreen: Please let me point out early in this thread that you have so far leveled the only barbs. Your initial question was unkind at best. @syz made an accurate (if sarcastic) observation that your question was categorical. And you returned with a personal attack on her.

Please consider that your attitude and language are inducing the angry response you’re getting, rather than assuming that the problem is “women”.

@so called hot button questions, create discussion and lead to learning and growth—I learn a lot from all of you, and you all point weaknesses in my ideas and help me clarify my own thoughts and positions.

@niki—my response to syz was in kind

I apologize if my comment came off as cavalier (I do sometimes have issues with sarcasm), but my statement stands – I perceive your question as an unfair, sweeping generalization.

Do you consider that link a serious article? Would you truly advocate a deliberate decision to remove a childs’ bike helmet? Really?

Seems like kneejerk conservatism to me, but hey, that’s why I bother to vote.

@gail—if observations concerning our culture make you aggressive, I do not deserve the blame for it….if it makes you so angry, something else is going on…..

@allengreen: If you refuse to be reasonable, don’t expect reasonable people to try to reason with you. I’m done here.

@syz, i understand, I am often taken as sarcastic, when it is not my intention to be so…

@niki—you are demonstrating my point….where am I being unreasonable? SHOW ME AND I WILL CAPITULATE

@ag; you have all the intelligent women here pegged perfectly…(sounds of strangling myself here.)

You see in our culture, there is a double standard, not equality. Equality is not the goal….Total domination over men is the goal——SOMEONE TELL ME HOW THIS IS UNREASONABLE?

@NIKI—DON’T GO YET!

ag; original question had nine generalities (let me count the ways)..not a useful way to present a thesis or argument.

Ok, I give up. Not following this thread any more.

@syz; good. I have a new Milo question in the pipeline.

@allengreen: let’s talk sisterhood! Remind me to tell you the story of Ann Karpel And The Senegalese Village Women Who Killed And Cooked The Wife Beater’s Cow and Shared It With the Whole Community in His Name So That He Got a Lot of Credit But Was Laughed At Behind His Back And Knew It.

@susan: are you sure that they didn’t kill and cook the wife beater?

@allengreen – next time, stay on the smart side and just don’t offend the woman.

@PNL—that is my point? I live with 4 women—why do men have to always walk on egg shells? with all due respect, all this talk about “killing” and “cooking the killed” is giving me the willies….

Be scared. Be very scared, allen.

I’m thinking allengreen might want to ask Netflix to loan him Fatal Attraction for a little refresher course in making women mad

you don’t have to walk on egg shells. just don’t say anything you wouldn’t want to be said to your mother/sister/daughter. why is this hard to understand?

PnL – seriously great answer. That’s the gold standard

take it like a man.
They must have done something pretty bad for them to sisterhood your nuts with a knife.

Was this question intended to start a fight?

And when did “sisterhood’ become a verb? I am feeling a bit pugilistic, I must admit.

thank you baseballnut. ironically, this was the 666th Q i answered…

@AG, reading your question and responses to the answers you received, it’s no wonder you feel as though you must walk on eggshells around the women in your life.

My theory? You said/did something really obnoxious to a woman and got exactly what was coming to you. Why is it that men like you (not all men by any stretch of the imagination), believe they should be able to treat women any way they want and have the women stay in her place and take it?

As a mother to three wonderful boys, I’ll tell you what I believe I owe them. I owe it to them to be sure they know that all people deserve the same respect regardless of gender.

AG- Amen, Brother. That’s why we have to stay united!!

@PNL—I hope my girls are not hyper aggressive, and I hope they don’t ostracize boys, or be mean for mean’s sake——I’m for equality, but what we see in our culture is boys being beat down, in school and in the workplace, don’t we? I see girls at my daughter’s 2nd grade class wearing “Boys are Stupid” tee shirts. I feel the pendulum has swung too far.

I brought up this question to provoke though on that very issue.

@supernutjob—I don’t remember being traumatized (except on fluther) and I hope that I am equally tough on the dudes and on the girls….
@loser——can we differentiate between fighting and discussing?

Someone bring Nikipedia back here…..she is ostracizing me, and I’m getting “vaclempt”, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztCU7kunDKs) from the negitive reinforcement.

you all know I’m joking, of course. Right?

You mean verklempt?

If total domination as you put it were the goal then you’d see castration as a mandatory punishment for all the male prepetrators of sexual crimes against women and children.

This is important: The Senegalese women didn’t kill any men. Or eat any. Gail, I’m surprised at you.

The women forced ONE (guilty) man to donate a beautiful meal to a hungry community – in essence, they forced him to do community service. He got all the credit. Sure there was snickering, but also gratitude. Because he also lost his cow, the other men thought better of beating their wives in order to get sex on demand. No one was badly hurt by that, were they? Or publicly humiliated? Perhaps the men were clever enough to imagine other approaches. Let’s hope so.
I love this story because I believe everyone gained something. well, not the cow.
This is not about revenge. This is about correction.

I entirely agree with allengreen that counterterrorism is still terrorism. “Boys are stupid” does not turn the tide; it increases its force. How do we convert our anger rather than turn it against new victims?
Collective, let’s think.

I’m so confused by all of this. :(

Honestly, I find it sickening that anyone (male or female) would make a statement indicating they should be allowed to offend without any comeback from the offended.

I may (hopefully) be completely wrong on this impression, but considering you’re a “family man”, I find it disturbing that you don’t think women should stand up for themselves. It does make me wonder how you treat your wife.

If someone offends me, I will hit back and depending on severity of the offence, I might appreciate sympathizers. I don’t think that’s a “female” view. I think it’s human.

Overall, I have to say, I get the impression you have a lot if pint up anger towards women and I find your choice of outlet poor. Try therapy.

I had a whole fucking essay written, and then my fucking battery died. The condensed version:

Women often band together. The results are not necessarily what Allen describes as susanc and Aristophanes attest.

The problem for people who espouse Allen’s point of view is that they don’t recognize what happens when normal guy behavior intersects with women’s standards of behavior, which is different. When a hapless guy gets chastised by women for normal guy behavior the message that the guy receives is “What the hell is wrong with you? Don’t you know better (than to act like a normal guy)?”

This leaves the undereducated guy two options. Telling the woman (in so many words) to fuck off and dealing with the consequences of that or kowtowing to a seemingly arbitrary and tangibly unnatural code of behavior. Neither option empowers, and ultimately, neither satisfies. The latter may for a little while, but it’s more about mimicking behaviors than really understanding what’s going on.

@allen, if you don’t know the rules, you might as well call it a minefield. When you learn the rules, it is actually quite empowering. You still retain plenty of control, but get the benefit of being able to do and say things the way women appreciate. As a small, gender opposite example, it would be like a woman understanding to shut up for (twenty)five minutes when you first walk in the door instead of deluging you with talk. The latter is what is natural for her, but the formal is what makes you happy. If she understands that, life is good. Likewise, if you understand a few things, life is good.

@allen, read How to Succeed with Women by Louis and Copeland. Tell your wife that you’re not reading it to seduce other women, but that it came recommend as a book to read to better understand women. It’s an excellent guy read and will absolutely generate “aha” moments for you.

* former *

Kev, please tell us the story of Lysistrata.
They aren’t going to look it up.
It’s SOOOOOOO cool!

@wildflower——are your comments are civil, and within rules of discourse? I suspect you have no strong male’s in your life, or if you did, they’ve been emasculated. I showed my wife your comment, questioning how I treat my wife.
My wife wants to know if you are married? And what kind of self respecting man would tolerate your attitude, or if you are angry and single?
And, how does in feel to be responded to the way you respond to others?
Now get all huffy and tell the thread you are leaving and how you won’t be responding any more, and take your toys and go home?

allengreen: your wife said that? She must be brainwashed by you

Of course….brainwashed….anyone that disagrees with you and your ilk is brainwashed, of course!

Your’s is the only valid opinion, I forgot!

Dude. Apostrophes.

sorry for the typos….......oops

How dare you forget! But it’s okay toots, I forgive ya. ;)

toot!——now I need forgiveness too! OMG!

huh? It’s actually “toots”. You said “toot” and a “toot” is an act of making a sound by a horn.

OMG!

allen, allen, allen…....you start out insisting you should be allowed to insult people, and move on to dragging both our spouses in to it….there is no lower limit for you, is there??
Yes, admittedly I made a remark about your family status, but I am genuinely concerned for anyone sharing a household with this attitude you’re displaying.

And you know, your remarks about whether I should be tolerated…...just proves my point! I’m sorry to say this, but you remind me of that kid in the playground who can dish it out alright, but goes way over the top if anyone even answers back. It’s kinda sad!

sorry for the double post
As for strength of male character. It shows a lot more strength to be open to other people’s opinions, regardless of gender or other specifics, than to make confrontational statements and blow a fuse when people respond to it.

(and by the way, as for your actual question here, I haven’t dragged anyone else in to this….seems in our case you’re leaning more towards the ganging up thing – not me! And I’m the girl!)

@allen; remember the learning curve? You are permitted several statistical blips, but by now, I wish that you had gotten the flavour of this collective. Just when I think, “Whew, you slide back down.

I’m not backing down, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I reject the double standard that you all are trying to force down my throat. You are trying to pound me into submission, attack my family, attack me, you say my argument is illogical, but will not point out how. It is great your you all to attack my character, but if I respond in the exact way you all do, then I’m “sliding down”.
I am satisfied that the female collective has proved my point, the point of the original question beyond any shadow of a doubt. I’ll revisit this thread for the next 20 years, and until someone can logically demonstrate that women don’t gang up and attempt to emasculate men that disagree with them, I’ll stand my ground and I will have the last word on this one.
Every so called “statistical blip” is hung like a mill stone around my neck, yet it is OK for me to be slandered, make baseless assertions against my family, and slander against me (accusations of brain washing my wife, ect, see above)—-way over the line. Stuff that I would expect from a Fox-News-Watching-Trolls, not from the Fluther Enlightened—some of you that clearly hold other’s to a standard that you do not live up to yourself.

We clearly have an imbalanced and a sick culture.

Maybe the feminine ideal is a hairy-chested, tattood sailor, a female Brutus, if you will. But that does not mean I have to embrace that ideal. http://www.dwquailgolf.com/headcovers/images/brutus.jpg

I am sure your mother’s would be proud. (Hold up the double standard please!) If you want an emasculated man, I am sure there are no shortage of them.

How am I “ganging up”? It is me against the “collective”, or so a review of this thread would demonstrate.

“Strength of male character”, is to accept being beat down? Yeah, and we are “spreading liberty in Iraq too”, white is black, up is down, freedom is slavery”......

Thank God, men have the choice of marrying a women from other cultures and countries. Thank you God, Thank you God (and I’m an athiest!)

Touché

I’m assigning you a theme song.

I love it

I find that a shame. I actually like that song and won’t choose to associate with allengreen. I think perhaps this song is a better fit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl6qgB5Neow

This is for you Marina

Dude!! The more you respond, the more you prove my point of being closed off to others’ opinions and overreacting.
Let’s not forget that you appealed to this debate with your question, yet you consider responses that don’t agree with you as something being pounded down your throat, attacks on your character, etc.
If you didn’t want to hear other views on this topic, you shouldn’t have posted the question.
I find it ridiculous that you appeal to a discussion and then take such a hostile stance against those who offer an opposing opinion.

As for these other cultures, where apparently women agree with your view and think they are idiotic and should remain quiet; I’d be interested to know what cultures they are. Certainly not any of the ones I’m familiar with – and I work with people from every European country, counting friends from just about each one. And being from one such myself, having lived in another 2.

In all seriousness, and I don’t mean this as a personal attack, but you have some serious issues. I would strongly urge that you seek out counseling.

@syz, I was hesitating to suggest that we play “Guess that DSM-IV diagnosis?” but it sounds like we have enough players.

I don’t man this as a personal attack, syz, but was there an absence of a strong male figure in your life growing up?
Is there something about a man disagreeing with you that is frightening to you? Or impossible to accept?

Does every man that takes a position you are not comfortable with need counseling? Do you “sissify” the men in your life? Do hen-peck them and make their every moment shear hell and misery?

…...i hope nobody takes my use of “sissified” the wrong way. I wanted to use the term “vaginized” but could not find it in the dictionary…..anyone that was offended by my use of that term and how I used it….I apologize———thank you for bring that to my attention——you know who you are….....

Ag: there is no right way to use “sissified.” You keep stepping in it and then apologizing. How about trying to use neutral language and not attack people ad hominem or ad feminam? And what on earth would “vaginized” purport to mean? Penisized? Testiclized?

And “I don’t mean this as a personal attack, syz, but.,” means that the sentence inevitably will finish with a personal attack.

I don’t mean to nit-pick, allengreen, but “every man” and “anyone” used as subject of a sentence takes the pronoun “who” and not “that”. And it is “sheer” hell. If you are going to use sophistry, at least make it clear.

LOL, my relationship with my dad is just fine, thanks. And we even manage to disagree with each other and have civil discussions where we exchange ideas and compare philosophies. And I think I should point out that not all of the respondents here who disagree with you are female (although I can guess what your opinion of them would be).

@Gail——http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw/grinker/LwtaPronouns.htm

You are faking your so called expertise with regard to language. I am embarrassed for you that you cannot even use “the Google” to check yourself before incorrectly correcting my use of language.

@syz, please refrain from guessing what my opinion of other people would be…..your so called civil discussion about scratching milo’s belly, I have perused…..and I did not ask about your relationship with you dad, I asked “was there an absence of a strong male figure in your life growing up?”

Maybe I should pose a question, like, “why can’t some read a question and respond to it”......maybe that would be “misleadingly provocative”, like god says…..

True, Allen. I am a fake; I am an amateur; I realize that my behavior is embarrassing; I don’t know how to use the Google. You are the elegant writer; I hope you find a publisher for your book soon.

I’m now going outside and beat myself with pine branches.

I just checked the kentlaw.edu link to assure that I was not nuts (or had been catapulted into the future like Woody Allen in Sleeper). The database of pronouns listed before the examples is not to be read horizontally as equivalent substitutes. You are supposed to read the vertical columns as examples of the various kinds of pronouns.

There is even a subtle and rarely-used difference between “which” and “that” as precedents. http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw/grinker/LwtaThat_Versus_Which.htm

And here’s a good site who that explains the use of relative pronouns.

Determining the correct relative pronoun:

When information is critical to the understanding of the main clause, use THAT as the appropriate relative pronoun and do not set the information off by commas. The clause containing the pronoun and not set off by commas is referred to as a restrictive clause.

(Restrictive)— That

Russian generals have delivered a message that is difficult to ignore.

THAT relates back to the noun MESSAGE and is necessary for the reader to know what MESSAGE the sentence is about.

Clinton will continue to hammer out a historic Mideast pact that bears his stamp.
THAT relates back to the noun PACT and is necessary for the reader to know what PACTthe sentence is about.

There is another factor that obviously boosts the reputation of both of these men.
THAT relates back to the noun FACTOR and is necessary for the reader to know what FACTOR the sentence is about.

What am I missing? I need to unpack my fav. reference from editing class and get back to you….

Do you mean in general or specifically with respect to grammar?

You are missing the fact that “that” refers back to messsage, pact, and factor, all non-people.

Russian generals who deliver the wrong message end up in the Lubyanka.

Clinton, who was an idiot, decided not to continue to hammer Monica, who was relieved.

Men have the choice of marrying women who are from other cultures.

Lysistrata is a Greek play that lets men have it in the kishkes.

This reminds me of discussion that I have with Republicans. We end up discussing everything except the issue….By the way, I think McCain is hiring…..