Would it be more cost effective to house prisoners in coma centers?

But they wont learn the lesson. Prisoners need time to think and rethink about life. Or we can just cryofreeze all prisoners like in the movie Demolition Man.

If you put prisoners in comas than you would have to bathe them and move them to prevent bed sores

Prisons are expensive, but not as expensive as hospitals.

@RedDeerGuy1 pointed out the whole issue of rehabilitation aspect of prisons.

Besides, in the United States we have the 8th Amendment that prohibits cruel or unusual punishment.

In that case you may as well execute the heavy criminals!

Obviously it could fall under cruel or inhumane treatment. Currently prohibited in the USA.

Why am I not surprised to see such a flagrant disregard for human rights suggested by a good upstanding Christian?

Nope. Not cost effective at all. Each prisoner will need to be monitored by a doctor who might be able to handle 600 prisoners. Comatose prisoners will require gastric tubes for nutrition and hydration and some prisoners will require nutrition and drugs via IV. IVs must be monitored by qualified RNs every 15 to 30 minutes for the inevitable collapsed veins and subcutaneous infusion due to overuse. All drugs will have to be administered via IV by an RN. Each patient will have a urinary catheter that must be monitored and inevitable unrinary tract infections must be dealt with. This may require prophylactic antibiotics. Inevitable infections will require antibiotics. This will take a staff of 24/7/365 RNs ($40/hr min) and LPNs ($25/hr min) which are much more expensive than prison guards.

The paperwork on a comatose patient often takes even more time than it does to actually care for them—and must be done by the person actually administering the service on the shift the care was administered. It is heavy work so the hourly wage may be even more than that stated above. A full head-to-toe assessment must be made on each prisoner at the beginning and end of every 8-hour shift for status report purposes, then documented and signed off by the nurse manager. Some prisoners may require airway intubation and airway monitoring and care.

A staff of CNAs ($16/hr min.), which are about as expensive as Florida prison guards, will have to turn each prisoner every 2 hours to avoid bedsores. If this isn]t done, systemic infections will occur. Their bowel movements will have to be cared for by the CNAs within minutes of occurrence. All urinary cath bags must be emptied thrice every 8 hours. I/Os. which is the monitoring and documentation of all fluids in and out of the prisoner can be carried out by the CNA, but signed off by the nurse manager. The prisoners must be closely monitored for regurgitation in order to avoid drowning in their own vomit.

There is more, but it’s been too long since I cared for these patients to remember everything involved. It is heavy work. It takes two people to turn a patient safely. Many of these patients will become obese which might require more manpower. Obesity will bring on diabetic, circulatory, renal and coronary complications requiring more care, including dialysis, and more drugs.

If these things are not done, it would constitute cruel and unusual punishment. But if that hasn’t been an issue before this policy of induced coma for prisoners came to fruition, it will certainly become an issue when the body begins to rise as it certainly will.

So, a team of one RN and two LPNs and two CNAs per 8-hour shift might be sufficient.for every ten out of 2,220,300 adult prisoners in America. Triple that for three shifts per 24-hour day. Would you like to include the juvenile population as well? Sure, Herr Himmler, we can do that. But pediatrics require even more manpower and heavier monitoring because they crash so fast.

There will be a nurse manager for every eight teams and above them will be a Director of Nursing. The DON will be laison to both his or her nursing teams and also the staff of MDs. And that is just for the static, stable patients. There will have to be different specialized departments requiring more skilled staff such as Cardiopulmonary, ER, a rather large infections and infectious disease department and quarantine, orthopedics, pharmacy staff, risk management, obstetrics and gynecology, layers of admin staff and bean counters, unit secretaries, etc, etc, just like any huge hospital.

Then you have support staff such as environmental (cleaning and supply staff), quality control, cafeteria personnel for staff, ethics commissions—the whole nine yards right down to HVAC and plant maintenance and control. These people, while working in a healthcare environment are different than in other buildings and institutions—right down to the special type of filters used throughout the plant and the frequency they are changed.

But none of this will be done properly because America does not give a shit about prisoners and therefore there will be a plethora of enormous legal actions against the responsible government body or subcontractor—and you and I will pay.

Therefor, my guess is that it would be much, much more expensive than the lax and cruel system we have now—and that does not include civil rights and ethical violations which would not only be costly, but threaten to destroy the medical professions in the States.

Yup!
I hear that feeding them cream cheese that we brought back from the moon induces the perfect coma, while preventing the need for urination, defecation, ingestion, rotation and “rumination”.
They’ve been proven guilty. Appeals are just looking at the facts too closely.

@Espiritus_Corvus

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@RedDeerGuy1 But they wont learn the lesson. Prisoners need time to think and rethink about life.
Overall, how is that working? How many times do they get tips from other criminals that when they get out they graduate from just being car thieves to identity theft and then some?

Is that what ”Three Strikes You’re Out” laws were supposed to do?

If you put prisoners in comas than you would have to bathe them and move them to prevent bed sores
This would solve that, or you have a pod with shallow water they would float in, solves the bathing problem too.

@zenvelo Besides, in the United States we have the 8th Amendment that prohibits cruel or unusual punishment.
No, actually it says:
The Eighth Amendment (Amendment VIII) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights (ratified December 15, 1791) prohibiting the federal government from imposing excessive bail, excessive fines, or cruel and unusual punishment.

It might be unusual but no crueler than stuffing two people in what amounts to a walk-in closet.

@MrGrimm888 Obviously it could fall under cruel or inhumane treatment.
Elucidate, how can it be more cruel than the way prisons are now, and we are not talking of those in SHU?

@Darth_Algar Why am I not surprised to see such a flagrant disregard for human rights suggested by a good upstanding Christian?
Another BIG SWING and a MISS. You might tune your powers of clairvoyance because they failed you again. Where did you see where I say I advocate this? Oh, snap! You did not. I think prisons as they are, are barbaric, if I said how I believes prisons should be then you all would say I was coddling criminals…..I would be damned if I go right, damned if I go left.

HC. I don’t have enough time to tell you what I don’t like about the American legal system and it’s profit prisons. But I would argue it’s harder to institute new inhumane practices, than undo older ones. Such a ‘prison ’ as you mention will not be likely allowed. Unless you are talking about some sort of suspended animation. Even then, I think it cuts back on the ‘rehabilitation’ others mentioned above. Getting an education. Reflection on deeds done. Time away from certain people or things. Therapy and the like, are also things available for an inmate to ‘take advantage of ’ while incarcerated. Then jobs programs can take the baton when they are released. In a perfect world that is…...

If an inmate is unconscious, they have no possibility of improvement prior to release. You would essentially be freeing the exact person who committed whatever crime they were convicted for. With no ,or little chance they will change.

Cost effective? No
Moral? No
Bizarre and impractical? Yes

This would quickly become a life sentence for all prisoners. Even with the most efficient physical therapy and passive exercises, every one of these prisoners would suffer severe muscular atrophy after a year and would be permanently bedridden.

I am guessing that for someone given a life sentence without a chance of parole, you would suggest stringing them up on the spot, since they would otherwise not be given a chance to come out of the coma.

“You’re part of my flock now, John.

They say it’s quite a rush.

Your whole life flashes before your eyes.”

@Hypocrisy_Central “Where did you see where I say I advocate this? Oh, snap! You did not. I think prisons as they are, are barbaric, if I said how I believes prisons should be then you all would say I was coddling criminals…..I would be damned if I go right, damned if I go left.”

Your wording very much indicates that this is something you would advocate for. If you feel you are being misunderstood then rather than bitch about how others interpret your statements try working on your delivery of them.

@MrGrimm888 I think it cuts back on the ‘rehabilitation’ others mentioned above.
That is if there was any focus on rehabilitation, I might be wrong, but I would bet my dollars against anyone’s donuts here that I have known, and now know more people who have done hard time than most members here on Fluther. Those who rehabilitated, did so on their own, by way of some program, or through the church, the prison had nothing or little to do about it. The system is bent on punishment and warehousing the *”dregs and malefactors”_ of society. How many politicians have cut their teeth or rode to office on the back of being tough on crime? How many have rode to office being high on rehabilitation? Prisons are big bucks, all that t-paper, all those noodles they sell at 300% profit over the street, the clothing, bed linin, water, electricity, phone calls, big bucks at the expense of the inmate or their families.

I am sure some will argue none of that is true

Putting someone in a coma cuts their life short. Actually, it is worse than that, because it cuts out years while they are younger and healthier. Life in prison is harsh, but most would far prefer to be awake during that time than put to sleep. Putting someone in a coma is the moral equivalent of murder. Whether or not it would be cost effective is irrelevant. It is immoral.

If you want a new approach to cutting prison costs, consider this program used by Richmond, California to reach out, mentor and give money to young potential criminals. The best way of cutting prison costs, as well as crime costs, is to prevent the crimes in the first place. As the old saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

^ The best way of cutting prison costs, as well as crime costs, is to prevent the crimes in the first place.
That is the best thing for any other thing as well, homelessness, addiction, etc. but to engage the potential victims over a long-term connection can be messy and expensive (at least more than some are willing to spend), and falls too close to discipleship. That is why you hardly, if ever, hear politicians say they are going to take the money of Larry Lunchmeat and spend it on programs to keep those society sees as malefactors, and dregs from doing crime, being homeless, or drugged out. Larry Lunchmeat and his friends would not vote for such a person, and since such a person wants to get into office, they will opt on giving those malefactor a royal smack down because that is what the voters want to see.

@Hypocrisy_Central …because that’s what the voters want to see.

I think that’s changing, my friend. Its just a feeling I have, but I think America will be making a slow turn over the next few years toward more rational ways of doing things. Trump very publicly took us to the edge of something very ugly, a very scary precipice, and now I think the majority of people will no longer want to go in that direction. It’s like he took us through our crazy teenage years and now it’s time to do a little growing up.

As to the current discussion: I believe the best way to prevent crimes in the first place is to have better schools.

^ I believe the best way to prevent crimes in the first place is to have better schools.
There is a fix for that and has been around for a while, but very few want to do it.

I think this is a valid point. Some people are just broken and no amount of incarceration will fix them.

@Hypocrisy_Central , You have not addressed my main point, which is that putting people into comas in immoral. Just because something is convenient and inexpensive does not mean that it is right.

If the city of Richmond California proves to be successful, other places will look into copying them. Being able to prevent crime inexpensively is appealing both morally and financially.

^ You have not addressed my main point, which is that putting people into comas in immoral. Just because something is convenient and inexpensive does not mean that it is right.
What would that gain in the end when we are not referencing the same standard of morality from the same standard? What I think is moral, would differ much or little from you, and we both might be different from someone else. Even if there were things that appear to overlap, it would be artificial as the reason for the overlap would not be the same.