Are feminist truly about equality or are they more about having it all, the control of a man but the benefits of being female?

A true feminist probably does want an equalitarian egalitarian society but good luck defining “feminism” these days.

I think some feminists are just jaded, like many other civil rights supporters. Their past negative experiences with racism, sexism, and /or bigotry cannot help but slip through in their rhetoric. Conscious or unconscious, a bitter resentment is present.

I think it’s like when people misinterpret ‘black lives matter’ as they should matter more. That isn’t the case there ,as it isn’t with feminist movement. They want equal footing. But have to talk about the issues that matter to them. Making some seem to be prioritizing their own needs over others.

One only need to look at the misogyny in the current Presidential race to see that equality still has a way to go.

The pay gap has closed under President Obama, by a whopping one cent.

Not all feminists are women. Many men are feminists too. Re-post your question once there is really a gender equal society.

A lot of men are feminists. And what is the point in trying to pigeonhole the motivations of people. Sure there are man-hating women thinking themselves feminists, but for the life of me, I think you live in some alternate dimension. Can you lost some examples of these women who feel they deserve to have it better than men. WHERE are they?

Ugh.

Feminism is about equality.

And women’s problems are far from over.

I think you are confusing a feminist and a self-serving asshole. Self-serving assholes always find their way in any civil right organization just to get it all like you say, in the name of the cause they should be fighting for. They may not even care for the cause at all. The difference between a feminist and a self-serving asshole is that you can only find working feminists within a feminist community, and working self-serving assholes everywhere, as long as the organizations benefit their selfish need.

If feminist was created for the sole purpose of getting women to crush the world like you seem to think, then you could say all civil right organizations were trying to step on everyone’s head. There would be no need for them, at all. You live in the US so the problems women face may be too subtle for you. Go see the world outside America, women are facing hell in many parts of the world.

Everybody wants respect, and the more the better.
My grandfather once told me that there was no such thing as equality. The person who feels like they have been on the bottom want his or her turn on top and I would think that a true feminist would want no less.

It has been my experience that all they want is to be treated as equals, not superiors, no special treatment, just the same as.

@ARE_you_kidding_me A true feminist probably does want an equalitarian egalitarian society but good luck defining “feminism” these days.
Well, you are true in the last part, reading down it seems what people want is not truly functional, why not have everyone look alike, dress alike, etc.? There is such a thing as equal purpose within different function. The PCs we use have equal purpose in different elements, if all we had were disc with programs but nothing to read them or give them use, we would have interesting drink coasters or mini Frisbees. If we had tons of PCs with no programs to run on them we would have even more interesting paperweights. The PC only has a real use with both software and hardware, to me, from what I have seen of feminist they believe that unless we have all of one as to all be alike, there is no equality.

@zenvelo Many men are feminists too.
Well, nothing in life said all men would be of strong will, some were bound to be blinded

@HC not sure what you are really trying to say but my issue with feminism is that “Feminism” has no real structure, goals or leadership outside of “equality for women” Ask a feminist what it means and as I said before you’ll probably get a projection of their personal hopes and fears. It’s been infiltrated by people who use it for personal gain and their own political agenda.
Individual issues need to stand on their own merit and when they are branded “feminist” I usually question their legitimacy a little more carefully. Many issues raised are serious and need attention but the the “feminist movement” today is completely lost.
Equality does not mean what you are describing it means equal opportunity and equal autonomy.

^ Equality does not mean what you are describing it means equal opportunity and equal autonomy.
That is quite nebulous to me as men and women were created with different functions that were to complement each, not be a duplicate. All-inclusive equality will never be possible for anatomical and or physical differences alone, plus to try to achieve so would be dysfunctional. It would make no better sense than to say all people should be rich, and then set out to make sure of it.

Well, the idea that if someone wants to be a nurse, lawyer or an engineer without the need for society giving them permission contingent on their gender should not be a nebulous concept to anyone. What you are talking about is that equality does not happen until we are all wearing unifs and every field has exactly equal numbers of gender which is absurd.

Equal does not mean we have no differences.

Equal means our differences don’t matter (in the eyes of the law, opportunities, etc).

@Mariah Nailed it.

@ Hypocrisy Central Let’s forget about the goal of “all people should be rich”. That is a disingenuous comparison and a deliberate switch of topics from economics to irrelevant anatomy. It amounts to the argument that “women are cursed with boobs, so they clearly deserve less money”. And while the impossible goal of “everybody should be rich” may be readily dismissed by all who hear it, the goal of economic and social parity for women is unassailable barring such specious analogies. Equality for women isn’t about the surgical addition of a penis. It’s simply a matter of fundamental decency, and something for which we must strive. Rather than the ludicrous “riches for all” as an impossibility, try to take an ethical stand against the proposition that “no kid should go hungry.”

“Also as has been mentioned so many barriers sandbagging women have been done away with yet some feminist are still unhappy, what windmill are they still chasing or what chip they have yet to remove off their shoulders?”
Interesting choice of concepts from a black man in America to state. Do you feel, @Hypocrisy_Central that you are judged on, hired because of, and paid equally for your skills alone? Do you really believe that you aren’t being racially profiled if you are questioned as to your motives and perhaps more viciously harassed if you sit in an idling car in a predominately white middle to upper class neighborhood, perhaps waiting to give a friend a ride somewhere? Or, to be more graphic, if you were to shoot up a church full of white people do you think the police would refrain from shooting you and make sure you were fed?
If you never experience racism, well lucky you. And how unusual.
If you do, then someone saying that hey, so many barriers have been removed for black men in America, and calling the quest for equal and fair treatment a ”...chip they have yet to remove off their shoulders” is really just a bit racist and condescending, don’t you think?
Sexism and racism are two fingers on the same hand.
Learn a thing.

@canidmajor Do you feel, @Hypocrisy_Centralthat you are judged on, hired because of, and paid equally for your skills alone?
In most cases, yes, I cannot remember working anywhere that non-white people were paid less while doing the same position, those who made more had higher positions. I am sure there were jobs I did not get because of my race, OR my gender, but the way I look at it, why would I want to work for someone who would just tolerate me and not truly want me working for them? That is one reason why I loathe Affirmative Action, I don’t want to be given a job over a white guy because the government made them, if the white guy was better he deserves the job, same as if he was Hispanic, etc. I would not be happy there knowing they did not really want me but doing so because the government said they had to to stay in business or something.

Do you really believe that you aren’t being racially profiled if you are questioned as to your motives and perhaps more viciously harassed if you sit in an idling car in a predominately white middle to upper class neighborhood, perhaps waiting to give a friend a ride somewhere?
I know I have been racially profiled, I have been stopped at least 7 times in my life that I remember for DWB. Sometimes those doing the profiling were Black cops, I think it is a cop thing, more than a racial one.

If you do, then someone saying that hey, so many barriers have been removed for black men in America, and calling the quest for equal and fair treatment a ”...chip they have yet to remove off their shoulders” is really just a bit racist and condescending, don’t you think?
I do not think it is disingenuous or condescending as I am not on street corners, standing on soapboxes, taking out ads, or doing Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson press conferences screaming white America is rooking me. As much as race can be a roadblock these days, if I choose, it can also be a plus, maybe not with Affirmative Action which I hope has gone the way of the T-Rex, but other similar benefits being Black can gain me because the government feels I need so much help. I really do not have any chip on my shoulder the size feminist and their male supporters have.

There is a range in every group. Just as you wouldn’t want to be judged by Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson, feminists are not a cohesive group and are not well-represented by their loudest extremists.

Is it really so wrong to want equality? To care that inequalities remain, even if they are not as huge as they once were?

It is absolutely not wrong to want equality, fuck you if you are not fighting for it. If more feminists acted you I could get behind the movement, sadly I can’t.

^^ Is it really so wrong to want equality?
Is it a crime if equality comes in variant forms? To squeeze all of the things into the same mold to make sure they are equal can be very counterproductive. You can’t build anything if you have all hammers and no nails, likewise if you have boxes upon boxes of nails and no hammer to drive them, wood does not get attached to each other, having all hammers make sure they are all equal but no work gets done.

@ARE_you_kidding_me I think you might find that more are like me than you realize, but the extremists are very loud.

@Hypocrisy_Central I think you need to reread my comment above about what “equality” means to me.

I know that but you don’t need any “movement” to fight for what is right. You just have to do it. It’s much, much more effective and powerfull that way. You cannot discredit that kind of pure truth.
“Feminisim” is not that pure, it’s really a barrier in its political putrification. It’s not just about women and equality, it is about all of us. The extremists own it and we cannot just take it back. You really know this already though.

@Mariah I think you need to reread my comment above about what “equality” means to me.
Equal means our differences don’t matter (in the eyes of the law, opportunities, etc).
If you meant that, it still applies, there can be differences and still have equality as you put out. Hammer people would need nail people and vice versa, neither would see the differences as a bad thing but as different genders have different

@ARE_you_kidding_me I don’t think I agree that I need to abandon ship just because there are some shit people on board. Either way I guess we’re just arguing about labels though so it’s not that important.

@Hypocrisy_Central It looks like you didn’t finish your comment but I think I get the gist of it.

Look, I’m not that woman who will pretend that men and women are identical besides anatomy. I get that there are inherent differences when you consider the groups as a whole, but when you get down to the individual level things get a lot fuzzier.

If you want to say that, for example, women are less common in STEM because they’re naturally not predisposed to that type of thinking (that’s an opinion I would argue against, but that’s besides the point), that doesn’t change the fact that I and many other women are good at math and science and want to be in those fields. And we should have those opportunities just as readily available to us as men do; we should not face roadblocks due to our gender, we should not have male teachers and family members trying to sway us away from it from a young age just because “most” women don’t do STEM.

Individual women who do not want to be homemakers shouldn’t have to be homemakers just because men have decided that women as a whole are good at that.

We should have equality of opportunity, despite the differences that exist between the genders. Freedom to make choices.

I feel it relevant to mention that many enemies of the feminist movement are other females. Not simply big dumb men holding them down.

I’ve heard women say AMAZING things to young girls. I’ve heard more than one older woman tell a girl that she’s ‘sitting on a goldmine. ’ An old ex gf of mine would never have stayed with me because her mother told her she needed to marry a wealthy man and live off him. When I asked about love, she said she would hopefully grow to love the rich man, but his money was most important. Women teach others to use sex as a weapon , or negotiating tactic. ‘No sex until you mow the lawn dear.’

My point?

If women wish to be treated as equals, STOP manipulating people with your gender.STOP using your vaginas to get what you want, earn it instead.
And for fuck’s sake, STOP teaching young girls this type of behavior. Please….

You can’t have it both ways. If you want equal footing , try standing on the same ground .

Nobody ever said all women are feminists? I’m not responsible for the dumb things you’ve heard some individual women say. Stop judging feminism based on the actions of every single woman you encounter.

I’m not judging feminism. I’m telling women that to get where they want to go,they need to get there own house in order as well. I want the same thing feminists want. But there are poison seeds planted in the gender, which have nothing to do with the world ,or any repressive men.

We’re never going to get to a point where there are no individual women anywhere saying stupid things. That doesn’t mean the problems of women as a whole are caused by those individuals, or that there’s nothing we can do to help women until the magical day in which there are no stupid women in existence.

Oh brother. Point missed…

You’re blaming women’s problems in women. I’m not saying they have no part in it but to me it’s pretty pointless to say that women have to be perfect before they deserve to be helped. No group is ever going to be perfect.

Nope. Sure didn’t EVER put all the blame on them. I was just mentioning a small role they play in their own oppression.

And AGAIN you’re putting words in my mouth. When did I say women need to be perfect to deserve help?

@Mariah And we should have those opportunities just as readily available to us as men do; we should not face roadblocks due to our gender, we should not have male teachers and family members trying to sway us away from it from a young age just because “most” women don’t do STEM.
Having that type of ”full access” should filter to men in parenting? If guy boinks some gal at a frat party and she gets knocked up, but wants to keep the baby but he doesn’t care to be a father (he has other coeds to boink), should he have equal and full access to bypass being a father, he can write the child off as his and never be recognized as the father and she does what she can to care for the child completely on her own, or with help OTHER THAN HIM? Do feminist want fairness to that level of fairness?

I think labels are important but in a very negative way. I think they are quite detrimental. Attach a label to an issue, even an obvious one and I’m going to cast an evil eye on it. Everyone does this and especially people who are already aligned with one group or another.
If someone raises a valid issue but attaches feminism to it half the battle is lost because I’m not going to know if they are thinking like you or are one of the lemmings who will smear fake blood on their face and chant while picketing in the parking lot.
Aside from that like you said, there is no cohesion, I would say it’s not really a movement at all anymore because of this. Honestly when I hear someone say they are feminist my default mode is to distance myself from them as quickly as possible because there is a higher than normal probability that they are batshit crazy. Not saying it’s right but that’s just how it is. I know I’m not the only one. You don’t want that in the way of solving real issues.

Oh, the irony. So many boys saying that women are doing women’s stuff wrong.
<sigh>

Sure, half the population is incapable of understanding the other half and should just shut up. Sounds reasonable to me.

@Hypocrisy_Central I fail to see how the scenario you propose is equal? It’s not as though women currently have the right to have a child, dump full responsibility for it on the father, and then pay no child support, so how would it be a step toward equality to give that right to men?

@MrGrimm888 I felt like I wasn’t expressing myself well last night so I decided to sleep on my response. I think what irked me about your comment was that I don’t hear women saying those kinds of things, but you’re saying I shouldn’t expect equality until women stop saying those things, so what am I supposed to do? Put down my feminist torch, hunt down those individuals you heard and tell them to shut up, and only then continue to believe in feminism?

Furthermore, you mentioned it was older women you heard saying that. It astounds me that men don’t realize that the phenomenon of “gold digging” was caused by traditional gender roles. If men are the breadwinners and women are the homemakers, what are we supposed to do to make ends meet except use men for their money? Luckily society is moving away from that now – feminism is reducing this phenomenon by opening up opportunities for women to make money for themselves.

^‘you’re saying I shouldn’t expect equality until women stop saying those things….’

NO NO NO

I NEVER once said that. I simply wanted women to be accountable for their own role in their perception. That perception doesn’t say ‘I want to be treated the same.’ It says ‘give me this because of this. ’

When Charles Barkley calls out black Americans on NBA TV about frank and honest inward thinking, he isn’t saying black people are responsible for their problems. He’s saying there’s work to be done on both sides. He’s being accountable.

Men oppressing women isn’t the only hurdle the feminist movement needs to clear. It starts in the mirror. You change yourself and then go out and change the world. (Not you personally )

Yes ,I agree society is moving away from this thinking now, but it’s still being taught.

OK. What is your definition of “feminisim” @Hypocrisy_Central? I don’t know how to answer that question with knowing that.

I’ve never referred to myself as a feminist. However, I don’t think I’m out of line for expecting to have the same respect, and the same rewards, that a man would get, for the same things. I often don’t get it, but I do expect it. It only seems logical to me. Of course, many men’s ideas about the role of women are any thing but logical.

@Hypocrisy_Central “Having that type of ”full access” should filter to men in parenting? If guy boinks some gal at a frat party and she gets knocked up, but wants to keep the baby but he doesn’t care to be a father (he has other coeds to boink), should he have equal and full access to bypass being a father, he can write the child off as his and never be recognized as the father and she does what she can to care for the child completely on her own, or with help OTHER THAN HIM? Do feminist want fairness to that level of fairness?”

MOST of the women that I have known who have been in the position of having the father of their babies take off have actually raised those children on their own with ZERO financial help from their fathers. I don’t think that’s right: if you both create the baby then you both should be responsible for raising it. In. Every. Way. And your fictional frat boy should learn about birth control.

@Mariah I fail to see how the scenario you propose is equal? It’s not as though women currently have the right to have a child, dump full responsibility for it on the father, and then pay no child support, so how would it be a step toward equality to give that right to men?
See, that is what I am speaking of, the rub is women are all for ”make everything equal” until that equality takes away a perk, or causes a disadvantage to them. The point you missed is that as it stands the woman has the right to deny parenthood to a man or force him into it. To be equal he would have the same option to be a parent or not. If he just was happy boinking her bareback, and she allowed it and gets knocked up, if she wants to keep the child and raise it, that is her choice, she lives with it and if he doesn’t want to be a parent he gets to opt out, as if it never happened and the child is not his, now or forever more. If she decide she doesn’t want to be a parent and he does, half the material of that ”tissue” is his, so he should be compensated for his half, since her deciding not to keep it robs him of his half. Why is that not fair?

@Dutchess_III What is your definition of “feminisim” @Hypocrisy_Central?
To tell you the truth, the way I have seen it applied I could not say, to me the way it has been applied it to have all the advantages of being a man without giving up any advantage for being a woman, basically wanting the whole cake and eating it to with a large glass of milk.

@tranquilsea MOST of the women that I have known who have been in the position of having the father of their babies take off have actually raised those children on their own with ZERO financial help from their fathers.
First, was any of them married to the baby’s daddy? Second, if he doesn’t life underground or off the grid, eventually his checks will get attached, his income tax refund seized, and he might get tossed into jail. It is no cake walk for him, but she wanted to have the child, _which is at least ONE GOOD move she made, but she was at the wheel. At least around here, if the father was out of the picture, single women with kids have a lot of help, even if it is not enough to live in a mansion.

I don’t think that’s right: if you both create the baby then you both should be responsible for raising it.
I guess it is right that both start to create a child but of the one who biologically has to bring it to term doesn’t want to she can decide for both of them they are not going to be parents.

I guess when you put it THAT WAY, it is way more fair ~~

What is wrong with ”...have all the advantages of being a man without giving up any advantage for being a woman. ”?

Also, exactly what advantages are you referring too? Getting higher pay than a woman for the same job? Positions of authority? Those positions should go to the humans who are most qualified to be in them. Not just to those who have a penis.

@Hypocrisy_Central The courts can’t seize what they don’t know about. In Canada, if a women doesn’t go to court and start the process to compel the father (or mother) to pay child support then it doesn’t happen. And that is the end of the story for MANY if not MOST of those scenarios. And I am not advocating for dealing with it that way. I think the mother and father should both be involved in their child’s life.

@tranquilsea In Canada, if a women doesn’t go to court and start the process to compel the father (or mother) to pay child support then it doesn’t happen.
In the US I believe the State is more money hungry, I knew people who got attached even when the mother did not know where they were or even tried to get anything. I would guess somehow there is something in place that the moment your social hits the system as earning money, he State wants back what they paid out in government dole to the mom and kids. The only way to get around that is to work under the table, cash and carry, then the system can see anything you make.

I think the mother and father should both be involved in their child’s life.
Is that before or after she decides if they are both going to be parents or not?

Unfortunately this is one of those situations that is highly dependent on one of the undeniable differences between men and women – anatomy – and thus is impossible to make completely equal. Women carry the child, therefore they get to make decisions about abortion due to bodily autonomy.

@Mariah That’s kinda sad, from the father’s point of view. I mean, what if the father wanted the child? You probably didn’t mean it, but from that statement, it seems as if the father doesn’t even have any rights to decide about his own child’s life…

I agree it’s sad that the father might lose a child he wanted, but yes I did mean it. The child is in the woman’s body. The woman has autonomy over her body. It is her decision.

I think it is to a point, once the fetus is viable it should be afforded the same rights as everyone else but the mother’s rights generally trump those. If the baby could be born and survive without complications to itself or the mother and the mother would rather abort it rather than use other options like adoption I’m not afraid to call it what it is.

We cannot guarantee no complications with birth though. You can’t make someone undergo a medical procedure just because you have decided that you think it’s safe.

Nobody said it was, an abortion is not guaranteed to be safe either. I personally have no hard lines here. It’s all a grey swirl but I don’t think there should be any hard fast rules. I think it should be handled case by case with the rights of the child and mother taken into consideration. Who makes that determination is where the real debate lies IMO. This is late-term though. Early in the pregnancy abortion is clearly the womans choice.

@Hypocrisy_Central and @tranquilsea, here’s a typical story for you.

My daughter had a baby 11 years ago. She was single. The father knew about the baby (he kicked them out when she was 9 months pregnant) but wanted nothing to do with him, although he did make an appearance at the hospital when the baby was born.
My daughter had the baby, alone, broke. She applied for SRS financial assistance. She received a total of $450 over a 2 month period.
Then she went to work at a fast food place and did not receive any more cash assistance.
The father stayed quiet. Made no attempt to see the baby or anything.
Then, about 6 months later, the SRS suddenly took that $450 from the father’s substantial paycheck..
He went on the war path. Him and his substantial paycheck (he made about $25/hour. But that was 10 years ago. I’m sure he makes much more now.)
He suddenly sued for full custody of the baby, whom he had only seen once, when he was born.
He sued my unemployed daughter for child support.

He and his lawyer were so tricky. First, they sent the original court appearance notice to a non-existent address, so my daughter was not even aware this was happening.
The first she became aware was when the court order was sent to MY address, and she had to sign for it.

That is how she learned that he, and his substantial paycheck, were able to procure 51% custody, which meant my daughter had to pay $300 a month in child support to him, and he called ALL the shots.
For a time he only allowed her to see the child for 4 hours a week. He played all kinds of head games with her, all in retaliation for the SRS garnishing his paycheck that one time.
There was nothing she could do. She had no money. Justice is only for those who have money.
It was a nightmare for her.

In the meantime, the only annoyance for the father was that he then had to care for the kid 51% of the time, so he got married. He makes enough so that his wife is a full time home maker, so he has no child care expenses.
He still has my daughter over a barrel. She has to walk on egg shells. If she does the slightest thing to displease him he, and his substantial paycheck, goes to his lawyer and increases the child support.
She finally makes fairly decent money, about $14 an hour.
50% of that is taken for child support for that one child.
She has 3 other children she is supporting, without the benefit of any child support. for them. She’s afraid to apply. She doesn’t know what they’ll do in retaliation, and she doesn’t have the money for an attorney.

And so they lived happily ever after.

^^I hear that same story over and over from friends and acquaintances. Sometimes the man does the screwing, sometimes the woman. Heartbreaking.

Most often, the men have the money to do it, though. We wouldn’t have this “single mother in poverty” epidemic if all the men were pulling their fair share.
How many “single men in poverty” do we hear of?

@Dutchess_III if I’m being completely honest I know more guys being screwed by the mothers in several ways. This one really goes both ways. I know one really stand up guy who pays his child support, lives in a trailer with what is left and jumps at every opportunity to see his daughter but the mother has all the control and basically never lets him see her. She worked the system and has enslaved this poor man. She lives with her new “husband” in a $400k house, does not work and basically drinks all day. Most places the laws still favor mothers and some simply take advantage. It’s not just the guys doing the screwing here.

I know it goes both ways.

@Dutchess_III My daughter had a baby 11 years ago. She was single. The father knew about the baby (he kicked them out when she was 9 months pregnant) but wanted nothing to do with him, although he did make an appearance at the hospital when the baby was born.
First, I am a realist here, I think while that might be what happens to some it is not what happens with most, at least the men and women I know or knew. Second, if this is seen as typical it illustrates a very sad aspect of this nation. As much as I feel for your daughter, I still have to point out, it would not move in those circles if there was a ring on it. When people go wading into the pool of rented relationships, there is the chance there are jellyfish under the surf, and if one steps on them there is really no room to complain, one should know it is not all pretty white topped waves.

The father stayed quiet. Made no attempt to see the baby or anything.
Then, about 6 months later, the SRS suddenly took that $450 from the father’s substantial paycheck.
He went on the war path.
He only went into action to use the system in ways to benefit him when it started to cost him money, if he had the chance to opt out as the child’s father once and forevermore, no one would have been taking money from him and I am sure he would have remained invisible.

That is how she learned that he, and his substantial paycheck, were able to procure 51% custody, which meant my daughter had to pay $300 a month in child support to him, and he called ALL the shots.
Life is no fun when the rabbit’s got the gun. The law is the law, she experienced in reverse what many men experience, only the man is made a father when he doesn’t care to, and put on the hook for 50% of a child he might get to see 20% of the time. The law is the law and if you know how to wield the sword it can cut both ways.

He still has my daughter over a barrel. She has to walk on egg shells. If she does the slightest thing to displease him he, and his substantial paycheck, goes to his lawyer and increases the child support.
You do not see women doing that, making the man jump through hoops to see his kid(s) while she is spending his support money on new jewelry for her new boyfriend and trips to the salon? Life is never fair, which is part of the point, if people stayed in their lane the roadway would not be littered with wrecks.

We wouldn’t have this “single mother in poverty” epidemic if all the men were pulling their fair share.
It is a ”single mother” because they chose to be single, they also chose whoever they chose to boink. If women want equality then it is everyman for himself as if no one gets special provision, and he gets the chance to opt out if she wants to keep the child, it is as if she purchased a vehicle she decided, she pays the gas, tires, insurance, etc. that is complete fairness.

@ARE_you_kidding_me [..if I’m being completely honest I know more guys being screwed by the mothers in several ways. This one really goes both ways.
Most places the laws still favor mothers and some simply take advantage.
That is the way it commonly goes, but we are not supposed to mention that because that would be misogynistic to allude that women are gaming the system and not using it 100% as it is intended, and not using the child(ren) as pawns.

@Mariah The child is in the woman’s body. The woman has autonomy over her body. It is her decision.
BINGO, there we go, feminism at its best, be for it when the benefits are in flowing, but if it causes some sacrifices or the benefits flow outward, invoke the ”vagina card”, basically get all the perks of a man but not giving up any benefits by being women….

Sigh. You are grossly misrepresenting my viewpoint.

And I’m still waiting to hear what “control” men have that women don’t, and what benefits women have that men don’t.

@Dutchess_III Me too.

@ARE_you_kidding_me @Dutchess_III I’ll wait here with you, watching the show from a side.

Have some popcorn!

(brings three chairs)

Thank you! I was getting tired of standing. Have a beer.

Thank you. We will be here for a long time, now we can watch the show in peace.

@Hypocrisy_Central Pregnancy is one situation we cannot make perfectly equal because of the obvious anatomical differences.

Women have the disadvantage of having to be the ones who get pregnant, and all of the discomfort, risk, and discrimination that accompanies that experience.

That disadvantage should be countered with the advantage of being able to have the final say in abortion decisions, because bodily autonomy applies in literally every other situation, ever.

We don’t have to give men magical immunity to child support in order to make this situation more equal. Women do not have immunity to child support if the father raises the child alone so I can see no reason why men should have that right either.

I would love to make this perfectly equal but since men cannot get pregnant I cannot. Sorry.

I fail to see how this is playing the vagina card.

@Dutchess_III And I’m still waiting to hear what “control” men have that women don’t, and what benefits women have that men don’t.
That is the thing, women seem to believe men have much more than them, we don’t, and however, women get total control on if both are parents or not. In the case of rape, her past cannot be used in court but his can, even junk that happened in high school, or decades before the crime, as if somehow she was squeaky clean and did not live a risky live style that put her in harm’s way. Those are two I can think of off the bat. Men do not really have anything more than women really, it is a myth women have.

@Mariah Pregnancy is one situation we cannot make perfectly equal because of the obvious anatomical differences.
The stroke of a pen can make many things fair.

Women have the disadvantage of having to be the ones who get pregnant, and all of the discomfort, risk, and discrimination that accompanies that experience.
That is a personal thing, that would be to say nature (as you would call it), or God (as I would call it) did not use or develop that as a way for humans to survive. Some women see it as a marvelous gift.

We don’t have to give men magical immunity to child support in order to make this situation more equal.
There goes the hypocrisy again, have it equal on the terms of women only, not true equality even if you have to legislate it.

I would love to make this perfectly equal but since men cannot get pregnant I cannot. Sorry.
Because it would place women at a true disadvantage in their minds, but I say again, the stroke of a pen can do much in evening things out.

Well. I finally, sort of agree with HC, on one thing at least. I think that women’s ability to have a child or children IS a gift. Not a disadvantage.

Circumstances of society, and it’s attempts to level the field make both genders suffer. Like many things in society, manipulation of the law can reap great benefit. That ability to manipulate the law has really nothing to do with gender.

I think it’s easy, as a man, to perceive that men get the short side of the stick in regards to child support.

I can also easily see how women perceive themselves as the ones who have it the worst.

Both sides experiences are something I think I can relate to.

HC , if I may, you’ve pointed out that the female ultimately bares the burden of sex. You also point out the disparity in men’s birth / abortion rights. That the man can be held liable for large amounts of money, without even the benefits of seeing their child. That’s correct. Usually the man gets, at least legally, in a worse bind than the female.
But, by my interpretation of your logic, the man, having this knowledge, is equally rolling the dice with his role in the pregnancy. Therefore, he must ‘do the time,if he did the crime.’

I’m a man. I know what could potentially happen if I ejaculate in a female. It’s not rocket science. Just because I can talk a female into letting me do it, doesn’t absolve me of accountability for the ramifications of our actions.

‘It isn’t fair’ is a statement that is sadly applicable to many, many things in life. When it comes to children, and separation, or divorce, or child support, nobody wins. The biggest loser is the child. Both genders would benifit from smarter sexual decisions. And children’s lives certainly would as well. Making this a better place.

HC. I have already said repeatedly why immunity from child support does not make the situation more fair or equal. I am not simply rejecting your utopian solution in order to keep men down. I am rejecting it because it is a stupid proposal that does nothing to improve equality.

@MrGrimm888 @Hypocrisy_Central you can call pregnancy beautiful or a gift or whatever the hell you want but the words you use do not change the facts that:
– Women die due to pregnancy
– Women get horribly ill due to pregnancy
– Women lose their jobs due to pregnancy
– Women get passed over for new jobs due to pregnancy
– Women bear the vast majority of the scorn from judgmental individuals when they are pregnant ‘out of wedlock’ since their condition is visible
– Aside from abortion, which is still far from being available to everyone, women have no way to ‘run’ from the responsibility of an unwanted pregnancy the way a man does
– Women feel like shit for one week out of every month due to their “gift” of being able to get pregnant

This is a gift I did not ask for and do not want.

@Mariah . I once heard a man say that a woman carrying a baby was the hardest thing he ever saw someone do. I agree.
Women are true warriors. They tolerate pregnancy thankfully. Or we wouldn’t be here.

You and I do not, apparently ,differ in our opinions there. Or most anywhere else .
I am not your enemy. But I may have a problem articulating my feelings sometimes.

Just because I want a level playing field, doesn’t mean I don’t respect, and value the other gender. As I’ve said in multiple threads, I value females above men.

And you may not have asked for it, but it’s a great thing. Every woman is a walking miracle. I’m sorry some don’t treat you that way.

Women’s importance to society is unequivocal.

They could probably make due with trained monkeys and sperm banks if need be. Men, like male lions are most useful for fighting other males. Most things men do could be done by women, even if more women are required (ie to lift something heavy. )

We are a luxury item in a way….But not required….

I’m reasonably certain that if women were able to really walk in mens shoes and vice versa this discussion would not be happening. @MrGrimm888 you forgot to put a bunch of ~~~~~ in your above post. Men are not a luxury item and women don’t suffer anymore than we do.

^They suffer more than us in parts of the world. By a LOT.
But yes. We (men) suffer too. But that’s apparently irrelevant.

But they are our queens. I love them. Need them.

When I have a girlfriend, she is held higher than any other.

I don’t have a clue how ANY society would devalue them.

They ARE humanity. Flaws aside, women represent the best of us. And they are the glue that holds us together. They are the reason we (men) wake up. The reason we (men) draw breath.

They do have an advantage in western civilizations. Currently. And their rights were fought for. But they are of the utmost importance to me.

FWIW, @MrGrimm888, while I appreciate your view of women, this kind of psuedo-worship thing you’ve got going on is not the kind of attitude I’m calling myself a feminist to fight for. I just want equality, not to be put on a pedestal.

Other cultures certainly treat women like animals compared to the west.

@Mariah, thank you.

@Mariah. I respect your opinion. But women do deserve to be put on a pedestal. IMO.

Cultures disagree, but that’s my stance. Not all women earn it(in some minds),but I think they do.

I appreciate your independence, but I will still give my life for you if needed. That is the true worth of a man. To give himself and his life to his community.

If women want to be upset at us for our role, it doesn’t matter. We still give our lives for you.
Ever heard the expression “women and children first? ”

How many men died for women to live? No credit due there huh?

Am I sexist because I think women should be worshipped? I can’t win, but I don’t care…

You will be worshipped with, or without your permission. And maybe you don’t value yourself enough.

My problem is that you are worshipping women without their permission, as you say, and then attempting to use that worship as leverage over us (“How many men died for women to live? No credit due there huh?”). If I didn’t ask for a favor, then I don’t want that favor lorded over me.

I don’t have to say “thanks for worshipping me” if I didn’t want you to worship me in the first place.

WOW…. Every response is an insult. Big surprise.

It’s not an insult. I’m literally just pointing out that I don’t want to be asked to say “thank you” for you doing something I don’t even want you to do.

^It’s called courtesy. Where I’m from , you’re rude if you aren’t nice to a female. Sorry if you don’t think you deserve it. You do.

It doesn’t require a thank you.

I think everyone deserves to be treated with courtesy. Including men.

^You’re too good for this world. It doesn’t deserve you.

No bullshit.

@Hypocrisy_Central, you said, ”...her past cannot be used in court but his can…” In rape cases that’s true. It doesn’t apply to other crimes. Does this seem unfair to you?

@MrGrimm888, you said, “How many men died for women to live? No credit due there huh?” IDK. You tell me. One? Two?
Meanwhile, I can tell you that over 1000 women are killed by men every year. I would bet that every single women on this one question alone has had to fight off a man who was out to hurt her.

@MrGrimm888 Circumstances of society, and it’s attempts to level the field make both genders suffer.
There it is there, if everyone stayed in their lane, there would not be as much carnage.

But, by my interpretation of your logic, the man, having this knowledge, is equally rolling the dice with his role in the pregnancy. Therefore, he must ‘do the time,if he did the crime.’
Of course a guy should equally know that, that is why I tell the young men if you feel you NEED to put a glove on it, because everyone and his bother been there before you, don’t dip your wick in it, you might get something you would be stuck with for life. If you do not want her to be the mother of your child, don’t dip your wick in it, or double glove it. However, in a rented relationship the sex is by default a selfish act of pleasure each seeks. I know some men I know was willing to “man up” and be the father and take care of their child, as opposing to running away or shirking it as some women believe, only to have HER decide he can’t, even though have the DNA in that ”tissue” somewhere down the road being human, is his. He did the crime, was willing to pay the penalty but she decides he did not have to because she had to pay a little, and did not want to.

Both genders would benifit from smarter sexual decisions.
Yes! Unfortunately in some homes (I will say many, and yeah I said that) you will not get that teaching or training and certainly not from schools or the media.

Women’s importance to society is unequivocal.
People get twisted when they think the importance have to be manifested in the same way. The hammer is important to the nail as the nail is to the hammer, working in their roles, wood get put together. Have 5 cases of nails and no hammer, no wood is going together, have five hammers and no nails, no wood is going together, one complements the other to get work done, you need both doing their perspective roles to construct anything otherwise you have pallets of wood sitting for no good reason than to be home for spiders or food for termites.

How many men died for women to live?
Thousands have died so women can even gripe they are being bent over and piped dry. Maybe they wanted to go to war, then we will see if just for the fact they were allowed to suit up that would have evened out the hand-to-hand battle in the fox hole or the trench where the loser died and the winner lived at least a little longer.

@Mariah I have already said repeatedly why immunity from child support does not make the situation more fair or equal.
And mentioning it 5,000 times in a row does not make it any less hypocritical bullshit rhetoric.

[…you can call pregnancy beautiful or a gift or whatever the hell you want but the words you use do not change the facts that:
– Women die due to pregnancy
Way more don’t and birth healthy babies.

– Women get horribly ill due to pregnancy
Way more don’t, and if there is any illness they see it as part of the territory like sore muscle if you are training.

– Women lose their jobs due to pregnancy
Not all do, I can’t think of any who did (of people I know of), those who work for themselves never lost their job.

– Women get passed over for new jobs due to pregnancy
Maybe it happens, but I would say it is in the same grain as guys I know missed promotions because they were serving in the National Guard or the reserves during the Gulf wars.

– Women bear the vast majority of the scorn from judgmental individuals when they are pregnant ‘out of wedlock’ since their condition is visible
These days that is so negligible as to not even register on the radar unless some pockets of the South maybe.

– Aside from abortion, which is still far from being available to everyone, women have no way to ‘run’ from the responsibility of an unwanted pregnancy the way a man does
But are not denied the chance at motherhood from an unplanned pregnancy the way a man is if he wanted to be the father. But she can bestow the child to someone who would love it and raise it so she might can’t duck it, but she doesn’t have to affect her for life.

– Women feel like shit for one week out of every month due to their “gift” of being able to get pregnant
A hysterectomy solves that, never worry again about being visited by “Aunt Flo’”.

Keep the spin coming, just because you don’t care for it, many other women cherish it, men as well when they are allowed.

I just want equality,…]
When it sides on the end of the women…..

@Dutchess_III […you said, ”...her past cannot be used in court but his can…” In rape cases that’s true. It doesn’t apply to other crimes. Does this seem unfair to you?
If everyone is supposed to be treated exactly the same, would you call that fair? Would not be saying all students are equal but those with red hair have to sit in the on the floor and can never help wipe the whiteboard or collect the books? Do tell, how can you manufacture fairness and equality of that from a feminist viewpoint?

In America we have managed to get beyond the sexual aspects of rape and are viewing it for what it really is….a violent assault. A violet crime that has virtually nothing to do with sex. It doesn’t matter if a woman is not a virgin, or what she was wearing, or how many men she’s been with. There is nothing in her history that would excuse a violent assault by a man. I don’t care if she’d voluntarily pulled a train at a party the night before. That does not give anyone the right to assault her.

That is why a woman’s sexual history isn’t admissible. Her sexual history has nothing to do with the crime that was committed upon her.

However, if a man has a history of assaulting women, then it is admissible. He’s committed the same crime in the past.

Do you understand?

- Not only men fight in wars. Feminism is contributing to the increasing presence of women soldiers; you’re welcome.
– I never said all women die in childbirth; regardless, some do and this is something we have to deal with that men do not. It is a reason why being the sex that gets pregnant is a disadvantage. It is something we have to deal with that you will never have to worry about. Same goes for every other item on my list where you said “but not all the time!”
- Hey, hear that ladies? We don’t have to worry about our periods anymore! ALL we have to do is get major surgery! Gee, why didn’t I think of that?

Instead of whining about all the rights and advantages he thinks women have, perhaps the OP should get sex change surgery. ;-)

@Brian1946 Instead of whining about all the rights and advantages he thinks women have,…]
There is no need to, I know there are things seen as an advantage for being a female societally and physically the same as there are for being male, I am comfortable staying in my lane, apparently some want to change lanes but if it means changing speeds they don’t like it and want the rules tendered to them.

@Dutchess_III In America we have managed to get beyond the sexual aspects of rape and are viewing it for what it really is….a violent assault.
If that were the case, then the sex part of it would never need to come into play.

However, if a man has a history of assaulting women, then it is admissible.
If it was contained to just how many women he actually assaulted, and then only to the actually assault, not anything sexual occurred during the assault, also excluding how long or how many sexual Web sites he subscribed to and their content be it BDSM, fetishes, etc. or how many stacks of porno mags he has in his closet, but that is too easy to follow.

@Mariah [.. Hey, hear that ladies? We don’t have to worry about our periods anymore! ALL we have to do is get major surgery! Gee, why didn’t I think of that?
Blame that on the evolution you want to believe in, maybe you can sue Mother Nature. The science is there though, isn’t it? Snip, snip, and the problem are gone, or maybe you want to blame science for not having an easier way? ~~

The sex part is part of the violence. That’s like saying that if you got stabbed with a knife the knife part of it doesn’t need to come in to play.

Having a hysterectomy is a hell of a lot more than a “snip snip” kind of deal. It’s not like a vasectomy.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

The evidence showing a perversion by the man is admissible because it was his fault. It was not the woman’s fault.

@Hypocrisy_Central …If that were the case, then the sex part of it would never need to come into play.

You whisper your response, but your response is so frigging patriarchal. The only reason people like you consider it as a sexual alternative is because you are a man! Women know from the time they are little girls that it is about power and violence and control.

And, despite what @Dutchess said, none of that is admissible if the defendant doesn’t take the stand in his own defense. There would be a lot more abusers behind bars of their history

Thank you @zenvelo
None of what is admissible? Previous history showing a pattern?

@Dutchess_III Yes, if the defendant does not take the stand, a prosecutor cannot bring up his previous record, unless the defense introduces the subject in some way.

I was on a jury for an attempted rape/attempted murder where the defendant did not take the stand. After the trial (we found him guilty on all counts) it turned out he had been convicted of rape multiple times starting as a teenager, and including raping multiple elderly ladies.

Thanks. But if he does take the stand, they can, right? Do most not take the stand?
Your story about that guy really sucks. What is the legal theory behind that?

Either way, a woman’s previous sexual history can not be brought up because it has nothing to do with the crime that the guy committed. HC thinks that just isn’t fair.

@Dutchess_III That’s like saying that if you got stabbed with a knife the knife part of it doesn’t need to come in to play.
No, it is like if you are going to focus on the murder you don’t spend time on the fact the perp hit him three times with a bat before be blasted the victim with a .44 auto mag. Just because the bat was part of it, it was not germane to the murder.

@zenvelo The only reason people like you consider it as a sexual alternative is because you are a man!
I NEVER said it was an alternative for sex, if you are going to lie on me, please try to do so with more panache, at least make it so over the top as to be slightly interesting.

HC, you aren’t even making sense, you know that? If someone murders someone they go into all the details. All of them. But they don’t bring the murdered victim’s history into it unless it’s somehow relevant.

In the case of rape, the victim’s sexual history isn’t relevant so there is no point in bringing it up.

Do you understand yet? Geez Louise!

@Hypocrisy_Central I was quoting you! Quit acting like Trump and deny your own statement six or so posts before your denial.

@zenvelo @Dutchess_III I think you are talking to a brick wall. Reminds me of a saying in my country: “I baptize you and you keep farting”.

@Dutchess_III In the case of rape, the victim’s sexual history isn’t relevant so there is no point in bringing it up.
Only because you and others care not to have her painted other than near squeaky clean or that her past potentially risky behavior placed her in greater danger of being raped. But, since it is all about power, and while he was beating her down could not help but stick his penis into her because it just happened as part of the assault and never thought about beforehand.

@Hypocrisy_Central The point is that is doesn’t matter whether the woman did “place herself in greater danger of being raped.” Doing dangerous things isn’t illegal. Raping somebody is. The woman is not the one on trial.

You still haven’t told us what control men have that women don’t, and what benefits women have that men don’t, @hc.

You still haven’t told us what control men have that women don’t,…]
That is the rub, women believe the myth that men have it better, when we truly do not have it better nor more control. Because there are functions men do better, largely because of mere brute force taken to do it, women think they are getting a short in the stick. It is all in the heads of women, it is not true.

Brute force has nothing to do with the inequalities we’re tying to discuss unless it’s used to force us to do things we don’t want to do. But that’s a different subject.

@Dutchess_III Brute force has nothing to do with the inequalities we’re tying to discuss unless it’s used to force us to do things we don’t want to do. But that’s a different subject.
That was in response to your question apart from the OQ. The original question had nothing to do with what control man felt he lost but what control feminist want to have, or what artificial equality they want to instill.

“Artificial? ”

I’m putting on my shute. Don’t care if it opens, I’m bailing.

Good buy cruel world…..

^^ “Artificial? ”
If it is not truly real, but imagined, then it is artificial.

I know what “artificial” means. Why would any equality women have with men be “artificial”? If Hilary becomes president, will she be an “artificial” president?

We went camping over the weekend. Some church group showed up. All the girls and women wore skirts that came just below the knee. ALL of them. The boys got to wear shorts or whatever, but the girls wore skirts. The boys rampaged around, riding bikes, running, wrestling, climbing trees. The girls did none of that. Most of them couldn’t even take a full stride, much less run. You can’t rampage in a skirt. It sucked.

Why have men the world over insisted on hobbling women in different ways? And why do we allow it? Are they THAT scared of us?

@Dutchess_III Why do specifically your comments come across as hateful? I see the arguments of other fluther ladies and while I’m not always in 100% agreement they all are more or less centered on equal rights. Your perspective would always have the men at fault here and not the fucked up religion they belong to. I assure you there is no vast conspiracy orchestrated by all of the men in the world to hobble women.

Those poor girls were very restricted in their movements.

@Dutchess_III I know what “artificial” means. Why would any equality women have with men be “artificial”? If Hilary becomes president, will she be an “artificial” president?
The office of President is just a title and a job, it is not like king. If there will be a woman with enough charisma to make it into the White House, she would have. Women have ran in the past, if it were a ”men’s only club” they NEVER would have been allowed to even run, they ran THEY JUST WASN”T GOOD ENOUGH, either at lying or getting their point across. Should Hilary prevail in appearing to the US people to be less of a douche bag than Trump, or have a better message, and is our next President, I guess that will be undeniable proof what you are chasing is indeed some artificial theory.

Some church group showed up. All the girls and women wore skirts that came just below the knee. ALL of them. The boys got to wear shorts or whatever, but the girls wore skirts. The boys rampaged around, riding bikes, running, wrestling, climbing trees. The girls did none of that. Most of them couldn’t even take a full stride, much less run. You can’t rampage in a skirt. It sucked.
If this is a general shot across the bow, then it being a church or not has no bearing, even secular people hobble their children in the name of modesty or decency; they just do so in different ways.

My Mom is forcing me to wear bras!?
I am 14 and my mother is 42. Why can my mother walk around bra-less in the house but i cant? She walks around bra-less in front of dad and brother (15) and she is 38 C!
I am ‘barely-there’ (32 A) and if I go braless even for 1 day, she screams her head off.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071126021834AAjZUL8

I can only say some misapply the scripture because they put too much man in there, but they are far from cornering the market on misguided restrictions.

Well, if you’re not even allowed to vote, because it’s assumed you aren’t smart enough, there is a pretty good chance you won’t get a shot at the office.

How do you figure a dress is more ”‘modest” than a nice pair of capris?

What is this sudden fixation with bras @HC?

^ Well, if you’re not even allowed to vote, because it’s assumed you aren’t smart enough, there is a pretty good chance you won’t get a shot at the office.
But women can vote now, so that is an argument that no longer has any teeth. What goes on in another nation is their business, for them to work out for themselves.

How do you figure a dress is more ”‘modest” than a nice pair of capris?
Taking a wild guess, I would say maybe capris show more shape of the leg or hips, where by some, even which is too much. That would be my guess, myself, I can’t say conclusively as I would have to see which type of dress was in question, however, of experience, I would say any skirt just above the knee and lower they are both equal, but that is just me.

What is this sudden fixation with bras @HC?
Certain people here have this undertaking to prove there is no God, whereby they cannot disprove God, any more than I can present evidence He exist, that is why it is a faith (which some seem to cannot ever grasp), if you have no faith, you never will know God. However, that is another subject, but how that has to do with the myth people believe about bras and their need, is that the need or disadvantages for bras can be proven in cases and with some people. However, the myth that somehow near every woman needs to have, own, or wear on other than because it is she who is indoctrinated in believing she must have and wear it, is in spirit no different than feet binding of the Chinese, which was done more for fashion or status like the neck stretching African women, or those who stretched their lips.

You and some others want to try and make a case against God, I can make a case against the hypocrisy of bras because the ammo is everywhere by the truckloads.

OK, now I’m really cracking up! What does god have to do with the existence of brassieres? At least the existence of brassieres can be proven! And they’ve been proven to be useful.

^ What does god have to do with the existence of brassieres?
He doesn’t, you missed the point, the only parallel was that in the same way people believe those who believe in God do so as a myth of fairytale, they just switch the fairytale to what the bra is suppose or not supposed to do for women, a myth of which can be busted by facts and evidence, unlike any evidence that can be presented that there is no God. In short, they want to believe in a myth while incorrectly accusing other of believing a myth.

You’re are ridiculous, you know that? You don’t have the faintest idea what you’re talking about. Just another male mansplaining to us stupid women what’s best for us.

You’re are ridiculous, you know that? You don’t have the faintest idea what you’re talking about.
I have more facts than the myths you are trying to manufacture facts to support as truths. To ignore facts (especially as a person of facts) is ridiculous. What we want to believe, even if facts say different we take on faith as if it were one.

You are simply ridiculous.

^ Just trying to equal you being ludicrous…..

It’s funny to watch you try to mansplain things to us silly, empty headed women.

^ It’s funny to watch you try to mansplain things to us silly, empty headed women.
If you feel convicted, I have nothing to do with that, I am just stating truths as I see it. I never said any women were empty headed, that cam from your mouth. 

You say it with almost every word you say about women. You are convinced you know our bodies better than we know ourselves. You’re convinced we wear bras only because society says we should.

We are the ones with the actual, physical, day to day experiences….but you know better.

You would have to believe we are truly idiots to actually believe that you know better than we do about ourselves.

^ You’re convinced we wear bras only because society says we should.
I can find women who would attest to just that, even if it is not every woman, enough wear them because the job says so, or they feel their job will come down on them if they didn’t, and with enough comments here about not wanting to give any hint of providing a titillating look to any guy they might think would be looking, it is more true than not; even if not for every woman. If you have evidence to refute no woman does that, I will have to take it back.

We are the ones with the actual, physical, day to day experiences….but you know better.
I can find writings, post, etc. with women saying they hate wearing bras, would love it if they could never wear them and not be judged, but I guess you know better than them, those foolish women who don’t know that if they don’t their breast will be around their hips by 68 years of age.

You would have to believe we are truly idiots to actually believe that you know better than we do about ourselves
I am not guessing, I am listening to what some women are saying, and how they say it, even those who believe bras are the best thing next to sliced bread.

I’m sure you could find women who don’t really need a bra who would attest to the fact that society frowns upon the practice…although if they don’t really need a bra I don’t know how anyone would know if they aren’t wearing one.

^ [……although if they don’t really need a bra I don’t know how anyone would know if they aren’t wearing one.
There is truth there which is even stranger some women would never leave the house without one even when they do not need on and some of the time no one would be able to tell or care. That still doesn’t negate the fact some who don’t need them, and no one would be able to tell, still do for fear someone would be able to tell as if that were some heinous thing.

It would certainly make me uncomfortable, even if I was smaller chested.

^ It would certainly make me uncomfortable, even if I was smaller chested.
In what way, and have you ever wondered why? I am sure it could not possibly uncomfortable in everything you wear.

Because guys would stare. I hate being stared at.

^ Are not guys a part of society? Your issues with not having a bra is personal, just as some who could bypass the uncomfortable Spandex/Lycra torture devices BUT DON’T because they perceive men (and maybe some women these days) will notice and look, ogle, or stare. By default, you who wear them for that reason are doing so because society, even if a small segment influence your choice to wear them as opposed to not wearing them.

So? Do you run around outside in this society buck naked on perfectly warm days? Answer: Of course not!! Why not?

^ Do you run around outside in this society buck naked on perfectly warm days? Answer: Of course not!!Why not?
Before I would not run around bearass naked on a hot day or any day because I have been conditioned by society since a kid that this was not to be done, also it was illegal, one’s freedom or wallet could be effected by doing so.

Now I would not do it as it is not bringing any glory to God doing so.

I am not afraid to admit there are behaviors I would or would not do because of the influence of society, anyone who says society has no sway on what they do and how is living a folly, such a person I would tell them I have prime real estate in Florida cheaper than dirt, you can get on twice a day when the tide is low, just make sure you have a good gator gun.

There are places where it is not illegal, and I bet you still wouldn’t do it. Funny how you want to cherry pick what kinds of brainwashing is acceptable, and what isn’t. In this case, the “brainwashing” of women to wear bras is unacceptable, because you would prefer the titillation of seeing unfettered boobs. It’s for your own pleasure, which is not God’s idea of glorifying him. You’re glorifying women. God doesn’t like that.

For me, personally, I’m much more comfortable wearing a bra when I’m active. Keeps things under control.

^ There are places where it is not illegal, and I bet you still wouldn’t do it.
I just told you why I would not even if it were a nudist beach, still don’t negate those strapping themselves in Lycra/Spandex when they don’t need to. I know why I would not be on a nudist beach and not afraid to admit it.

Funny how you want to cherry pick what kinds of brainwashing is acceptable, and what isn’t. In this case, the “brainwashing” of women to wear bras is unacceptable, because you would prefer the titillation of seeing unfettered boobs.
Again, your words and not mine, I never said it was or was not acceptable, I just said what it is and that those who were influenced by it be real with at least themselves and know that is the reason they don’t, myths about sagging breast, etc. notwithstanding.

It’s for your own pleasure, which is not God’s idea of glorifying him. You’re glorifying women. God doesn’t like that.
I cannot see how, but thank you for at least being on point with the correct God, so I know it is a God I can recognize.

How? Well, for starters, lust is a sin. As for the other, god doesn’t want you glorifying anything or anyone but him.

^ How? Well, for starters, lust is a sin.
Yeah, but you seemed to miss the fact the woman without the bra would not be lusting, unless lusting in another direction, any man or woman lusting over her because she is not wearing on is on them, not her.

As for the other, god doesn’t want you glorifying anything or anyone but him.
He would be cool with whatever man decided him to be. Now the one true Living God, it is not the clothes that would be of issue but the intent the person wearing them was aiming at, and that could be a pair of coveralls, a bikini, polyester pants suit, mini, or by skipping the bra, if her aim is to entice, titillate, or illicit adultery or fornication, she can be wearing a potato sack and still sin. What she wears would not rob any glory from God unless people want to worship her for what she wears, then we come back to the people, not the object.

It’s on you HC. You’re advocating women going braless so you can lust. You’re bitching at women to do something that they’re uncomfortable with, so you can get horny. That’s awful, you know? Don’t think Jesus would have done that.

“He would be cool with whatever man decided him to be. ” Wow. You’re starting to get an inkling. Nice.

^ You’re advocating women going braless so you can lust. You’re bitching at women to do something that they’re uncomfortable with, so you can get horny.
I was unaware you too were a member of the Fluther Clairvoyance Club, so tell me, what I am I thinking now?

Wrong again, the strawman cannot stand up, that is a weak of an argument as to say guns make people murder or there would be no murders if people did not have guns. You seem to equate the garment as being a catalyst for sin (in this case, the lack of it). IF I were to sin you think it would only be limited to a braless breast? Anyone can lust over a woman no matter what she was wearing, it need not be a mini, booty shorts, or a thong bikini, she can be wearing a polyester pants suit and still have a man wanting to jump her bones. If that were the case, what you are trying to propagate, only women in minis, booty shorts, etc. would be raped, no woman in a sweater (bra intact) and a pair of baggy cargo jeans would ever get raped or even be in danger. For your information, not all braless chest look attractive. I think IT IS YOU who are uncomfortable with it as YOU perceive men will see a nipple indent and lust over you and see you as something to boink for their own jollies so you have to invent ways to need the bra in order to prevent that but not have to admit that is the reason.

Wow. You’re starting to get an inkling. Nice.
Nope, you reverted back to the created gods, they are whatever man invented them to be, so I cannot even discuss them because the standard they have is that of men, so why not just go to the men who invented them; cut out the middle man.