General Question

flo's avatar

In French when is the se used before a verb?

Asked by flo (13313points) February 20th, 2017

When is se (or s’ if the verb starts with a vowel) necessary?
For example:“Trump s’attaque aux media” why is the s’ necessary?

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11 Answers

SergeantQueen's avatar

Se is a reflexive verb meaning that you would say that when you are referring to something you do to yourself like “se lave” would imply you wash yourself/their self. Although there are different verb tenses to mean he washes, she washes, they wash, etc and I can’t remember which one se is specifically. I’m going to go try and find my french notes and I’ll come back with a more detailed answer, but that’s the basics of it.
Edit: I just googled it but se means himself. So “se lave” would be he washes himself. I’m not sure what the french in your question means but maybe it’s something like trump attacks the media himself or something.

Zissou's avatar

^Almost. Se is a pronoun, not a verb. It generally means himself, herself, oneself, itself, or themselves.

Understanding French Pronominal Verbs

More resources

Sometimes a French pronominal verb doesn’t literally mean “oneself”. Sometimes it is used where a passive voice construction would be used in English (Spanish reflexive verbs are used this way too). Sometimes it has an idiomatic meaning.

In the case of the Trump example, my guess it that the se expresses a nuance. Il s’attaque and il attaque can both be translated as he attacks, but il s’attaque could also be translated as he tackles, according to Google Translate. So it conveys a more vivid mental image. Picture Trump hurling himself bodily at a gaggle of reporters.

Reflexive constructions are weird in that expressions that are reflexive in some languages might not be reflexive in others.

SergeantQueen's avatar

oops thanks for the correction. A reflexive verb would be the laver example I used. Or any other verb that indicates an activity you would do to yourself

SavoirFaire's avatar

One last nuance: “se” is the third person version of the pronoun. That version is commonly used when displaying the infinitive form of the verb (e.g., “se laver” is “to wash oneself”), but may change depending on who one is describing washing themselves (e.g., “je me lave” would be “I wash/am washing myself”; but also, “I want to wash myself” would be “je veux me laver” even though “laver” is in the infinitive). Note that the reflexive element is generally there because there are non-reflexive versions of the verb (“laver” is also used for when one washes a car, for example, but without the reflexive pronoun). This leads to cases like “s’attaquer” (which means something like “to take on” or “to deal with”) where the reflexive element is somewhat metaphorical.

This is mostly covered in @Zissou‘s first link, but I thought it might be worth making explicit here.

flo's avatar

Okay, thanks everyone, although I don’t get it. I only understand the je me lave, ... things you do to yourself part.

flo's avatar

When do you never use it? Would you give me some examples?

SavoirFaire's avatar

@flo The reflexive pronoun is used when doing something to oneself. For example, “I speak to myself” would be “je me parle.” Some verbs mean something different when a reflexive pronoun is used (e.g. “attaquer” vs. “s’attaquer”). Some verbs are always reflexive (e.g., “s’écrier,” which means “to exclaim”). And some verbs do not take a reflexive pronoun because it makes no sense to do them to oneself (you cannot climb yourself, for example, so the verb “escalader,” which means “to climb,” would not take a reflexive pronoun).

flo's avatar

@SavoirFaire If I’m hitting myself I say Je me frappe, right? I should say Je me parle if I’m talking to myself. It can’t be the same thing if someone is hitting someone or talking to someone else. No question climbing oneself is not something people can do to themselves, I have never seen “Je m’escalade…” Trump s’attaque aux media”, same thing since at that time he wasn’t attacking himself.

Zissou's avatar

Go back up to the first link in my previous post. Note the term “pronominal verbs”. Why “pronominal verbs” and not “reflexive verbs”? The all have the added “reflexive” pronouns, so why not call them all “reflexive” verbs? Because, according to this analysis, reflexive verbs are just one subset of pronominal verbs. Read the linked page and you will see that they divide pronominal verbs into reflexive verbs, reciprocal verbs, and idiomatic pronominal verbs. S’attaquer is idiomatic, not reflexive. The s’ here does not exactly mean mean “himself”, it just signals a subtle shift in meaning in this case.

So why is there no such locution as il s’escalade? There just isn’t. Idiomatic pronominal verbs are just that—idiomatic. You just have to learn them individually, just as learners of English have to learn the quirks of English two-word verbs.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@flo “It can’t be the same thing if someone is hitting someone or talking to someone else.”

And it isn’t the same thing. If I’m talking to you, it would be “je te parle” (or “je vous parle”).

”‘Trump s’attaque aux media’, same thing since at that time he wasn’t attacking himself.”

Right, but “s’attaquer” doesn’t mean “to attack oneself.” Like I said before, some verbs mean something different when a reflexive pronoun is used (note that I even used “s’attaquer” as my example). And @Zissou gave it to you in technical terms: “s’attaquer” is an idiomatic pronominal verb. It’s just one of those things you have to learn and memorize. Every natural language has elements that don’t fit the standard rules.

flo's avatar

@Zissou and @SavoirFaire
To quote you @SavoireFaire “It’s just one of those things you have to learn and memorize.”
To quote you. @Zissou __“You just have to learn them individually, just as learners of English have to learn the quirks of English two-word verbs.”_
There, that is fine. I’m fine with that.

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